Re: [Elecraft] K3 Noise reduction question

[Sam Morgan]

On 8/31/2014 3:57 PM, Gene wrote:> When holding in the NR button to 
adjust noise reduction, I get

> F1-1,2,3,4 then F2-1,2,3,4 etc for F3 and F4. Going further this is
> repeated for NRmF5, F6, F7 and F8.
>
> Can someone direct me to where in the K3 manual it explains what these
> settings mean and/or when to use NR or NRm?
>
> Thanks.
>
> Gene, W2BXR

K3 Owners Man D10.pdf
pg 6
pg 15

pg 25

Noise Reduction
Noise reduction reduces random background noise
while preserving meaningful signals. It adds a
characteristic “hollow” sound to all signals.
NR turns noise reduction on. It doesn’t apply to
DATA or FM modes, or with AGC turned off.
Hold ADJ to display the NR setting, which is
saved per-mode. Use the VFO B knob to tailor NR
for the present band conditions. In general, the
higher the number, the more aggressive the noise
reduction. Settings F1-1 through F4-4 are
recommended. F5-1 through F8-4 use a different
algorithm, where the -x part of the setting indicates
the degree of mix between the DSP-processed and
unprocessed signals (-1 is about 50% processed, -4
is 100%). A small M appears to remind you that a
Mixed setting is in effect, e.g. NRM F5-1.


also from: http://www.elecraft.com/K3/K3FAQ.htm


How does the Noise Reduction work?

NR depends on correlation of the present input with previous input. The 
system does not actually provide Noise Reduction; it provides Signal 
Selection. In other words, its default is to pass nothing at all. It has 
to believe there is a signal present, and then it builds a filter, or 
set of filters, around the spectral components of the signal it thinks 
is there.
Random noise has no correlation, voice has moderate but not perfect 
(unless you whistle a pure tone) and CW has excellent correlation.  As a 
result, noise is heavily suppressed (no filter is built to pass it), 
voice is partially suppressed (hence it needs some additional gain to 
compensate for this effect so the same AF level will produce about the 
same audio level with a moderate S/N speech signal) and CW is hardly 
suppressed at all (hence it does not need any gain boost).
NR is not recommended in Data Mode.  Data is already getting a matched 
filter in the demodulator. You might lose a few symbols as the NR 
settles around the signal, and it might suppress a very weak signal that 
you could otherwise copy.

NR in the end is intended for modes you listen to.


lastly I saved this gem of a post from Jack WA9FVP


Re: [Elecraft] [K3]Noise Filter (NF) ADJ
wa9fvp Thu, 27 Dec 2012 16:19:36 -0800

There's no documentation but as far as I can tell--

F1-x through F4-x defines the amount of noise reduction or how aggressive
the filter attacks the I.F. noise.  F5-X through F8-X defines the amount of
reduction and the level that's mixed with the filtered and non-filtered I.F.
Note that "m" which means "mix" will appear after F5-X and above.

X defines the delay.  Delay is the amount of time it takes for the filter to
converge on a non-sinusoidal signal or the noise.   The higher the number,
the longer it takes for the noise to reduce to a low level.

I hope this helps.

Jack WA9FVP

F1-x through F4-x are for CW
F5-x through F8-x are for SSB


--
GB & 73
K5OAI
Sam Morgan
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Re: [Elecraft] K3 Noise reduction question

[Bob]

You'll find it on page 25.

Bob NW8L

On Sun, 31 Aug 2014, Gene wrote:


Date: Sun, 31 Aug 2014 16:57:11 -0400
From: Gene 
To: elecraft@mailman.qth.net
Subject: [Elecraft] K3 Noise reduction question

When holding in the NR button to adjust noise reduction, I get F1-1,2,3,4 
then F2-1,2,3,4 etc for F3 and F4. Going further this is repeated for NRmF5, 
F6, F7 and F8.


Can someone direct me to where in the K3 manual it explains what these 
settings mean and/or when to use NR or NRm?


Thanks.

Gene, W2BXR
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[Elecraft] K3 Noise reduction question

[Gene]

When holding in the NR button to adjust noise reduction, I get 
F1-1,2,3,4 then F2-1,2,3,4 etc for F3 and F4. Going further this is 
repeated for NRmF5, F6, F7 and F8.


Can someone direct me to where in the K3 manual it explains what these 
settings mean and/or when to use NR or NRm?


Thanks.

Gene, W2BXR
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Re: [Elecraft] K3 Noise Reduction question

[Guy Olinger K2AV]

Hi Fred,

>From where I sit, if the NR display has a little "m" between NR and F,
those are methods best on voice (F5-1 through F8-4), while without the
little "m" (F1-1 through F4-4) are methods better with CW.  That is not an
absolute rule of course and many people have preferences which don't abide
by those categories.  People differ wildly on their sound perceptions and
preferences. Some people can't stand a hollow sound, like scraping a
chalkboard with fingernails.  Others need clear highs in speech or they
just cannot understand it.

It is not even a tiny bit surprising you find 1-1 "hollow" on SSB.  1-1 is
a method designed to dynamically peak up a frequency, DEFINITELY NOT a band
of frequencies like SSB. If you turn on 160m and listen to the static
crashes using 1-1, you can hear the method try to tune in on a center, and
this will move around just depending on the nature of the static crash. If
that hones in on a low frequency on voice, then I LOSE the all important
highs for sibilant sounds, this does not happen on 6-2 which is one of my
favorites.

Personally, I do NOT agree with the Noise Reduction section in the current
K3 manual on page 25, where they only recommend 1-1 through 4-1. There is
not even one NON-mixed setting that I like on SSB.

Nothing wrong, your K3 is not busted, YOU are not busted.  If you like it,
use it, if you don't like it, don't use it. Try them all on for size.

73, Guy.

On Fri, Apr 27, 2012 at 4:58 PM, Fred Jensen  wrote:

> I operate mainly CW and while the NB is very effective for me on CW,
> I've never seen much advantage to the NR at narrow CW bandwidths.  I had
> occasion to be on SSB this week attempting to work several SOTA summit
> activations, and tried the NR.  At the wider SSB BW, it made a great
> difference.
>
> With NR however, even at F1-1 [which I think means least aggressive],
> while the nasty line noise really fell, the SSB signal acquired a
> profound echo which made it very hard to understand.  I'm running FW4.39
> and whatever DSP came with it.  Is this reverberation [it's more like
> that than a distinct echo, like talking through a long pipe] normal?
> The further "up" the NR scale I went, the more pronounced it got, and
> beyond F1-4, the signal was indecipherable.
>
> Full Disclosure:  My hearing sucks and has since one night in 1965 on
> the other side of the planet, so me telling you what something sounds
> like can be somewhat of a joke.  I can't use my hearing aids under my
> headphones, so I run the AF gain high ["afterburner roar" or close], but
> the reverb effect definitely is controlled by the NR.
>
> 73,
>
> Fred K6DGW
> - Northern California Contest Club
> - CU in the 2012 Cal QSO Party 6-7 Oct 2012
> - www.cqp.org
>
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Re: [Elecraft] K3 Noise Reduction question

[Robert G. Strickland]

I also note the "hollow" sound to SSB when using the K3 NR. If I use it 
at all, it's at the lowest setting, 1-1. I had the same listening 
experience with the K2 DSP NR unit. It worked well on CW - sometimes 
miraculous - but for my ears, useless on SSB. The K3 NB works on all 
modes, every time. I haven't tried the higher K3 NR setting for SSB, 
being primarily a CW op. Also, my hearing is poor. Hearing aids all the 
time except when under the head phones and operating CW.
...robert


On 4/27/2012 20:58, Fred Jensen wrote:
> I operate mainly CW and while the NB is very effective for me on CW,
> I've never seen much advantage to the NR at narrow CW bandwidths.  I had
> occasion to be on SSB this week attempting to work several SOTA summit
> activations, and tried the NR.  At the wider SSB BW, it made a great
> difference.
>
> With NR however, even at F1-1 [which I think means least aggressive],
> while the nasty line noise really fell, the SSB signal acquired a
> profound echo which made it very hard to understand.  I'm running FW4.39
> and whatever DSP came with it.  Is this reverberation [it's more like
> that than a distinct echo, like talking through a long pipe] normal?
> The further "up" the NR scale I went, the more pronounced it got, and
> beyond F1-4, the signal was indecipherable.
>
> Full Disclosure:  My hearing sucks and has since one night in 1965 on
> the other side of the planet, so me telling you what something sounds
> like can be somewhat of a joke.  I can't use my hearing aids under my
> headphones, so I run the AF gain high ["afterburner roar" or close], but
> the reverb effect definitely is controlled by the NR.
>
> 73,
>
> Fred K6DGW
> - Northern California Contest Club
> - CU in the 2012 Cal QSO Party 6-7 Oct 2012
> - www.cqp.org
>
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-- 
Robert G. Strickland, PhD, ABPH - KE2WY
rc...@verizon.net
Syracuse, New York, USA
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Re: [Elecraft] K3 Noise Reduction question

[Arthur Burke]

I have some tinnitus (sp?) so, when things are really, really quiet, I hear
things
that really aren't there! Aside from that, a recent hearing test indicated
my hearing
was normal for my age (67) and I hear equally well (or equally poor!) with
both ears.

My experience with the NR has been somewhat the opposite of yours. I love
to back the
RF gain down just a tad, turn on the NR (don't remember the exact setting
right off the top
of my head) to where I have to strain to hear band noise. Then, when a
signal does appear, it sort of magically jumps out of the speakers!

Art - N4PJ


On Fri, Apr 27, 2012 at 4:58 PM, Fred Jensen  wrote:

> I operate mainly CW and while the NB is very effective for me on CW,
> I've never seen much advantage to the NR at narrow CW bandwidths.  I had
> occasion to be on SSB this week attempting to work several SOTA summit
> activations, and tried the NR.  At the wider SSB BW, it made a great
> difference.
>
> With NR however, even at F1-1 [which I think means least aggressive],
> while the nasty line noise really fell, the SSB signal acquired a
> profound echo which made it very hard to understand.  I'm running FW4.39
> and whatever DSP came with it.  Is this reverberation [it's more like
> that than a distinct echo, like talking through a long pipe] normal?
> The further "up" the NR scale I went, the more pronounced it got, and
> beyond F1-4, the signal was indecipherable.
>
> Full Disclosure:  My hearing sucks and has since one night in 1965 on
> the other side of the planet, so me telling you what something sounds
> like can be somewhat of a joke.  I can't use my hearing aids under my
> headphones, so I run the AF gain high ["afterburner roar" or close], but
> the reverb effect definitely is controlled by the NR.
>
> 73,
>
> Fred K6DGW
> - Northern California Contest Club
> - CU in the 2012 Cal QSO Party 6-7 Oct 2012
> - www.cqp.org
>
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Re: [Elecraft] K3 Noise Reduction question

[Don Wilhelm]

Fred,

Perhaps an explanation of how NR works will help you understand what you 
are hearing a bit better.  The NR algorithm looks for some sequence that 
it can define as a signal, and then builds a filter around it.  The type 
of filter is determined by the parameters you have set.

That is why you have found there is no need for NR when using CW with 
narrow filters.  On SSB, yes, some settings can sound "pretty ratty".  
Enough so that I do not use it on SSB.  But do give some of the settings 
above 4-4 a try - those use a different algorithm and may be worthwhile 
when needed.

73,
Don W3FPR

On 4/27/2012 4:58 PM, Fred Jensen wrote:
> I operate mainly CW and while the NB is very effective for me on CW,
> I've never seen much advantage to the NR at narrow CW bandwidths.  I had
> occasion to be on SSB this week attempting to work several SOTA summit
> activations, and tried the NR.  At the wider SSB BW, it made a great
> difference.
>
> With NR however, even at F1-1 [which I think means least aggressive],
> while the nasty line noise really fell, the SSB signal acquired a
> profound echo which made it very hard to understand.  I'm running FW4.39
> and whatever DSP came with it.  Is this reverberation [it's more like
> that than a distinct echo, like talking through a long pipe] normal?
> The further "up" the NR scale I went, the more pronounced it got, and
> beyond F1-4, the signal was indecipherable.
>
> Full Disclosure:  My hearing sucks and has since one night in 1965 on
> the other side of the planet, so me telling you what something sounds
> like can be somewhat of a joke.  I can't use my hearing aids under my
> headphones, so I run the AF gain high ["afterburner roar" or close], but
> the reverb effect definitely is controlled by the NR.
>
> 73,
>
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Re: [Elecraft] K3 Noise Reduction question

[Fred Jensen]

On 4/27/2012 2:32 PM, ab2tc wrote:
> Hi,
>
> Have you tried the NB (*not* NR)? I find it very effective against power
> line noise. I use the setting t2-6, IF off. For a long time I was using a
> combination of DSP and IF setting, but found that the IF contribution was
> little or non-existing, so I switched to DSP NB only.

Yeppers, my K3 is S/N 642 [it tells me every time I power up just in 
case I forget :-)] and I have used NB consistently on both CW and SSB. 
IF NB often drops the level 2 S-Units or sometimes 3.  Both IF and DSP 
seem to be quite sensitive to the character of the noise, I run the DSP 
between T1-5 and T2-3 usually, IF is usually on NAR 3 or 4.

On CW, I've never found much benefit from NR, regardless of the 
"aggression setting," which I've always attributed to a 150-250 Hz BW. 
When running in a contest, I'll usually run the BW at 450-500 so I can 
spot off-freq callers and the NR seems to have slightly more effect at 
the wider BW.  Since I got the P3 however, I can *see* the off-freq 
callers however and just go to them with RIT.

I don't think I've ever really tried NR on SSB until this week, when I 
noticed the reverb effect.  NB is equally effective on SSB as on CW, the 
setting is usually a bit different though at the wider BW.

73,

Fred K6DGW
- Northern California Contest Club
- CU in the 2012 Cal QSO Party 6-7 Oct 2012
- www.cqp.org

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Re: [Elecraft] K3 Noise Reduction question

[ab2tc]

Hi,

Have you tried the NB (*not* NR)? I find it very effective against power
line noise. I use the setting t2-6, IF off. For a long time I was using a
combination of DSP and IF setting, but found that the IF contribution was
little or non-existing, so I switched to DSP NB only.

AB2TC - Knut


k6dgw wrote
> 
> I operate mainly CW and while the NB is very effective for me on CW, 
> I've never seen much advantage to the NR at narrow CW bandwidths.  I had 
> occasion to be on SSB this week attempting to work several SOTA summit 
> activations, and tried the NR.  At the wider SSB BW, it made a great 
> difference.
> 
> With NR however, even at F1-1 [which I think means least aggressive], 
> while the nasty line noise really fell, the SSB signal acquired a 
> profound echo which made it very hard to understand.  I'm running FW4.39 
> and whatever DSP came with it.  Is this reverberation [it's more like 
> that than a distinct echo, like talking through a long pipe] normal? 
> The further "up" the NR scale I went, the more pronounced it got, and 
> beyond F1-4, the signal was indecipherable.
> 
> Full Disclosure:  My hearing sucks and has since one night in 1965 on 
> the other side of the planet, so me telling you what something sounds 
> like can be somewhat of a joke.  I can't use my hearing aids under my 
> headphones, so I run the AF gain high ["afterburner roar" or close], but 
> the reverb effect definitely is controlled by the NR.
> 
> 73,
> 
> Fred K6DGW
> - Northern California Contest Club
> - CU in the 2012 Cal QSO Party 6-7 Oct 2012
> - www.cqp.org
> 
> 
> 


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Re: [Elecraft] K3 Noise Reduction question

[ab2tc]

Hi,

Have you tried the NB (*not* NR)? I find it very effective against power
line noise. I use the setting t2-6, IF off. For a long time I was using a
combination of DSP and IF setting, but found that the IF contribution was
little or non-existing, so I switched to DSP NB only.

AB2TC - Knut


k6dgw wrote
> 
> I operate mainly CW and while the NB is very effective for me on CW, 
> I've never seen much advantage to the NR at narrow CW bandwidths.  I had 
> occasion to be on SSB this week attempting to work several SOTA summit 
> activations, and tried the NR.  At the wider SSB BW, it made a great 
> difference.
> 
> With NR however, even at F1-1 [which I think means least aggressive], 
> while the nasty line noise really fell, the SSB signal acquired a 
> profound echo which made it very hard to understand.  I'm running FW4.39 
> and whatever DSP came with it.  Is this reverberation [it's more like 
> that than a distinct echo, like talking through a long pipe] normal? 
> The further "up" the NR scale I went, the more pronounced it got, and 
> beyond F1-4, the signal was indecipherable.
> 
> Full Disclosure:  My hearing sucks and has since one night in 1965 on 
> the other side of the planet, so me telling you what something sounds 
> like can be somewhat of a joke.  I can't use my hearing aids under my 
> headphones, so I run the AF gain high ["afterburner roar" or close], but 
> the reverb effect definitely is controlled by the NR.
> 
> 73,
> 
> Fred K6DGW
> - Northern California Contest Club
> - CU in the 2012 Cal QSO Party 6-7 Oct 2012
> - www.cqp.org
> 
> 
> 


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[Elecraft] K3 Noise Reduction question

[Fred Jensen]

I operate mainly CW and while the NB is very effective for me on CW, 
I've never seen much advantage to the NR at narrow CW bandwidths.  I had 
occasion to be on SSB this week attempting to work several SOTA summit 
activations, and tried the NR.  At the wider SSB BW, it made a great 
difference.

With NR however, even at F1-1 [which I think means least aggressive], 
while the nasty line noise really fell, the SSB signal acquired a 
profound echo which made it very hard to understand.  I'm running FW4.39 
and whatever DSP came with it.  Is this reverberation [it's more like 
that than a distinct echo, like talking through a long pipe] normal? 
The further "up" the NR scale I went, the more pronounced it got, and 
beyond F1-4, the signal was indecipherable.

Full Disclosure:  My hearing sucks and has since one night in 1965 on 
the other side of the planet, so me telling you what something sounds 
like can be somewhat of a joke.  I can't use my hearing aids under my 
headphones, so I run the AF gain high ["afterburner roar" or close], but 
the reverb effect definitely is controlled by the NR.

73,

Fred K6DGW
- Northern California Contest Club
- CU in the 2012 Cal QSO Party 6-7 Oct 2012
- www.cqp.org

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Re: [Elecraft] K3 Noise reduction question

[GW0ETF]

Chris Meagher-2 wrote:
> 
> Hello,
> When I hold NR button to adjust noise reduction, I get levels F1, 1 to 4,
> then F2 1 to 4, up to F4.
> Clearly, 1 is least, 4 is most, but what do the F's represent? (Can't find
> any reference to this on page 24 of the manual.)
> I wondered if F refers to filter, if so then why not 5?
> 
> Thanks for any answers.
> 
> By the way, installed latest beta firmware, and so far so good.
> 
> Chris  VK2LCD
> K2 3666
> K3 685
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> 


Chris,

The link below is useful but Lyle provided a full explanation last December.
Can't yet find a way of referring back to a particular message so have
copied the text below also..

Have fun, 
Stewart Rolfe, GW0ETF (K3 145)


<<>>

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[Elecraft] K3 Noise reduction question

[Chris Meagher]

Hello,
When I hold NR button to adjust noise reduction, I get levels F1, 1 to 4, then 
F2 1 to 4, up to F4.
Clearly, 1 is least, 4 is most, but what do the F's represent? (Can't find any 
reference to this on page 24 of the manual.)
I wondered if F refers to filter, if so then why not 5?

Thanks for any answers.

By the way, installed latest beta firmware, and so far so good.

Chris  VK2LCD
K2 3666
K3 685
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