Re: [Elecraft] K3 Suddenly died
Nonsense alert! 73, Jim K9YC On 10/6/2013 10:22 PM, Richard Fjeld wrote: When we think of wire gauge requirements for amperage needs, we need to remember the amperage rating for wire is given for house voltage, typically ~117 volts AC (in the US). For lower voltage at 13.8 VDC, we need larger wire size (smaller gauge number). What often saves us is short lead lengths. Still, if one measures the voltage drop of a conductor under load by using a DMM with a test lead at each end of the wire, a drop will be seen if the wire size is not adequate for the load. (Emphasis on 'under load'.) The voltage drop across a resistance (in this case a conductor) is directly proportional to the amount of current flow through the resistance. At idle current, very little voltage drop will be measured in the resistance of the conductor. The 12V jack on the back of the radio cannot be used to accurately measure voltage drop in the power cable, but the voltage measured during key-down will be approximately 1.4 volts less than the PS voltage if the cable is good. An RCA plug can be wired to make the test connections safely. __ Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:Elecraft@mailman.qth.net This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html
Re: [Elecraft] K3 Suddenly died
My comments about using the 12V jack for measuring were directed to a K3/100. I should have added that. -Original Message- From: Richard Fjeld Sent: Monday, October 07, 2013 12:22 AM To: elecraft@mailman.qth.net Subject: Re: [Elecraft] K3 Suddenly died When we think of wire gauge requirements for amperage needs, we need to remember the amperage rating for wire is given for house voltage, typically ~117 volts AC (in the US). For lower voltage at 13.8 VDC, we need larger wire size (smaller gauge number). What often saves us is short lead lengths. Still, if one measures the voltage drop of a conductor under load by using a DMM with a test lead at each end of the wire, a drop will be seen if the wire size is not adequate for the load. (Emphasis on 'under load'.) The voltage drop across a resistance (in this case a conductor) is directly proportional to the amount of current flow through the resistance. At idle current, very little voltage drop will be measured in the resistance of the conductor. The 12V jack on the back of the radio cannot be used to accurately measure voltage drop in the power cable, but the voltage measured during key-down will be approximately 1.4 volts less than the PS voltage if the cable is good. An RCA plug can be wired to make the test connections safely. Dick, n0ce -Original Message- From: Lewis Phelps Sent: Sunday, October 06, 2013 2:43 PM To: elecraft@mailman.qth.net List Subject: Re: [Elecraft] K3 Suddenly died Thanks for input. We can all stand down on this one. The problem turned out to be a power cable after all. I was using a 3' power cable assembled with fairly light wire (16 gauge). Over time, the wire had flexed sufficiently at the exit from the APP pin that it began to fray. Fraying let to higher resistance, which led to more voltage drop under load, which led to further decay of the wire-pin joint. At the point I reported the problem, the power cord was still showing nominal voltage when not connected to the rig. But (apparently) resistance had risen to the point where the K3 wasn't getting sufficient voltage. All this eventually became clear when the wire was completely cooked, broken, and charred on the end. I shudda tried a different power cord sooner. Lesson learned: don't use 16 smaller gauge wire with Anderson Power Pole connectors, even if you double the wire to fill up the void in the pin. It's still a single stranded wire where it exits from the pin, and the smaller wire size is more vulnerable to flexing, no matter how low the current demand of the load it's carrying. Eventually, this wire can (and did) become a 1 amp fuse. 73, Lew N6LEW __ Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:Elecraft@mailman.qth.net This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html __ Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:Elecraft@mailman.qth.net This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html
Re: [Elecraft] K3 Suddenly died
I know this is the Internet and therefore anything goes, but on this list, can we at least make an attempt at being polite? Scott, N9AA On 10/7/13 2:04 AM, Jim Brown wrote: Nonsense alert! 73, Jim K9YC On 10/6/2013 10:22 PM, Richard Fjeld wrote: When we think of wire gauge requirements for amperage needs, we need to remember the amperage rating for wire is given for house voltage, typically ~117 volts AC (in the US). For lower voltage at 13.8 VDC, we need larger wire size (smaller gauge number). What often saves us is short lead lengths. Still, if one measures the voltage drop of a conductor under load by using a DMM with a test lead at each end of the wire, a drop will be seen if the wire size is not adequate for the load. (Emphasis on 'under load'.) The voltage drop across a resistance (in this case a conductor) is directly proportional to the amount of current flow through the resistance. At idle current, very little voltage drop will be measured in the resistance of the conductor. The 12V jack on the back of the radio cannot be used to accurately measure voltage drop in the power cable, but the voltage measured during key-down will be approximately 1.4 volts less than the PS voltage if the cable is good. An RCA plug can be wired to make the test connections safely. __ Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:Elecraft@mailman.qth.net This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html
Re: [Elecraft] K3 Suddenly died
To those who replied on, and off line, I don't mind factual disagreement, but aren't we above insults? It doesn't get much simpler than this. R is the resistance of the conductor (wire). I is the current flow. E is the Electromotive Force, or voltage. Ohms law is E=IR, and with simple algebra is I=E/R If a conductor (wire) is rated for 20 amps at 120 volts for a given length (due to it's R), and we want to use that same wire for 20 amps at 13.8 volts, we must reduce R by either increasing the wire size, decreasing the length, or a combination of both. Dick, n0ce -Original Message- From: Jim Brown Sent: Monday, October 07, 2013 1:04 AM To: elecraft@mailman.qth.net Subject: Re: [Elecraft] K3 Suddenly died Nonsense alert! 73, Jim K9YC On 10/6/2013 10:22 PM, Richard Fjeld wrote: When we think of wire gauge requirements for amperage needs, we need to remember the amperage rating for wire is given for house voltage, typically ~117 volts AC (in the US). For lower voltage at 13.8 VDC, we need larger wire size (smaller gauge number). What often saves us is short lead lengths. Still, if one measures the voltage drop of a conductor under load by using a DMM with a test lead at each end of the wire, a drop will be seen if the wire size is not adequate for the load. (Emphasis on 'under load'.) The voltage drop across a resistance (in this case a conductor) is directly proportional to the amount of current flow through the resistance. At idle current, very little voltage drop will be measured in the resistance of the conductor. The 12V jack on the back of the radio cannot be used to accurately measure voltage drop in the power cable, but the voltage measured during key-down will be approximately 1.4 volts less than the PS voltage if the cable is good. An RCA plug can be wired to make the test connections safely. __ Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:Elecraft@mailman.qth.net This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html
Re: [Elecraft] K3 Suddenly died
Using the 12V out jack for measuring voltage can be used as a fault check of the power pole continuity as well. It can remove doubt if test okay. -Original Message- From: Richard Fjeld Sent: Monday, October 07, 2013 8:18 AM To: elecraft@mailman.qth.net Subject: Re: [Elecraft] K3 Suddenly died My comments about using the 12V jack for measuring were directed to a K3/100. I should have added that. -Original Message- From: Richard Fjeld Sent: Monday, October 07, 2013 12:22 AM To: elecraft@mailman.qth.net Subject: Re: [Elecraft] K3 Suddenly died When we think of wire gauge requirements for amperage needs, we need to remember the amperage rating for wire is given for house voltage, typically ~117 volts AC (in the US). For lower voltage at 13.8 VDC, we need larger wire size (smaller gauge number). What often saves us is short lead lengths. Still, if one measures the voltage drop of a conductor under load by using a DMM with a test lead at each end of the wire, a drop will be seen if the wire size is not adequate for the load. (Emphasis on 'under load'.) The voltage drop across a resistance (in this case a conductor) is directly proportional to the amount of current flow through the resistance. At idle current, very little voltage drop will be measured in the resistance of the conductor. The 12V jack on the back of the radio cannot be used to accurately measure voltage drop in the power cable, but the voltage measured during key-down will be approximately 1.4 volts less than the PS voltage if the cable is good. An RCA plug can be wired to make the test connections safely. Dick, n0ce -Original Message- From: Lewis Phelps Sent: Sunday, October 06, 2013 2:43 PM To: elecraft@mailman.qth.net List Subject: Re: [Elecraft] K3 Suddenly died Thanks for input. We can all stand down on this one. The problem turned out to be a power cable after all. I was using a 3' power cable assembled with fairly light wire (16 gauge). Over time, the wire had flexed sufficiently at the exit from the APP pin that it began to fray. Fraying let to higher resistance, which led to more voltage drop under load, which led to further decay of the wire-pin joint. At the point I reported the problem, the power cord was still showing nominal voltage when not connected to the rig. But (apparently) resistance had risen to the point where the K3 wasn't getting sufficient voltage. All this eventually became clear when the wire was completely cooked, broken, and charred on the end. I shudda tried a different power cord sooner. Lesson learned: don't use 16 smaller gauge wire with Anderson Power Pole connectors, even if you double the wire to fill up the void in the pin. It's still a single stranded wire where it exits from the pin, and the smaller wire size is more vulnerable to flexing, no matter how low the current demand of the load it's carrying. Eventually, this wire can (and did) become a 1 amp fuse. 73, Lew N6LEW __ Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:Elecraft@mailman.qth.net This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html __ Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:Elecraft@mailman.qth.net This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html __ Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:Elecraft@mailman.qth.net This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html
Re: [Elecraft] K3 Suddenly died
There is a point which could be made -- the percentage voltage drop is bigger at 12V than at 120V. If the voltage drop on your power supply wire is 2V for a given current, that is the same regardless of the supply voltage. With a 120V supply, the wire will deliver 118V and with 13.8V it will deliver 11.8V. So the same voltage drop can matter more at lower supply voltages. Note that I'm ignoring the difference between AC and DC and skin effect. wunder K6WRU On Oct 7, 2013, at 7:51 AM, Richard Fjeld wrote: To those who replied on, and off line, I don't mind factual disagreement, but aren't we above insults? It doesn't get much simpler than this. R is the resistance of the conductor (wire). I is the current flow. E is the Electromotive Force, or voltage. Ohms law is E=IR, and with simple algebra is I=E/R If a conductor (wire) is rated for 20 amps at 120 volts for a given length (due to it's R), and we want to use that same wire for 20 amps at 13.8 volts, we must reduce R by either increasing the wire size, decreasing the length, or a combination of both. Dick, n0ce -Original Message- From: Jim Brown Sent: Monday, October 07, 2013 1:04 AM To: elecraft@mailman.qth.net Subject: Re: [Elecraft] K3 Suddenly died Nonsense alert! 73, Jim K9YC On 10/6/2013 10:22 PM, Richard Fjeld wrote: When we think of wire gauge requirements for amperage needs, we need to remember the amperage rating for wire is given for house voltage, typically ~117 volts AC (in the US). For lower voltage at 13.8 VDC, we need larger wire size (smaller gauge number). What often saves us is short lead lengths. Still, if one measures the voltage drop of a conductor under load by using a DMM with a test lead at each end of the wire, a drop will be seen if the wire size is not adequate for the load. (Emphasis on 'under load'.) The voltage drop across a resistance (in this case a conductor) is directly proportional to the amount of current flow through the resistance. At idle current, very little voltage drop will be measured in the resistance of the conductor. The 12V jack on the back of the radio cannot be used to accurately measure voltage drop in the power cable, but the voltage measured during key-down will be approximately 1.4 volts less than the PS voltage if the cable is good. An RCA plug can be wired to make the test connections safely. __ Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:Elecraft@mailman.qth.net This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html -- Walter Underwood wun...@wunderwood.org __ Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:Elecraft@mailman.qth.net This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html
Re: [Elecraft] K3 Suddenly died
If a conductor (wire) is rated for 20 amps at 120 volts for a given length (due to it's R), 1 -- The voltage rating of a conductor has to do with its insulation. It has nothing to do with the potential current flow or what you're calling the wire's R. 2 -- The applied voltage has no effect on the voltage drop of a conductor. Look at Ohm's Law again. The voltage drop is due to the resistance of the conductor (wire) and the current flowing through that conductor. A conductor with a 2 ohm resistance will have 2 volt drop when 1 amp flows. That 2 volts is the same for any applied voltage as long as there is 1 amp flowing. It can be a 12 volt system, a 120volt system or a 1200 volt system. One amp flowing through a conductor that has a 2 ohm resistance will have a 2 volt drop. ... and we want to use that same wire for 20 amps at 13.8 volts, we must reduce R by either increasing the wire size, decreasing the length, or a combination of both. Wrong. If the conductor is good for 20amps it is good for 20amps _at_any_voltage_. This is probably what activated Jim's Nonsense Alert! beacon. So ... why use larger conductors at lower voltages? Because for most uses we want to transfer power. To keep the power the same, we need more current at lower voltages. Example: A cable that supplies 120 watts at 120Volts needs to conduct 1 amp of current flow. (Power = current times voltage. P = I * E ). To get the same 120watts from a 12V system you will need 10 amps of current flow. If we tried to use the same cable at 10 times the current we would have 10 times the voltage drop. To avoid that we use a larger diameter conductor. Mark AD5SS __ Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:Elecraft@mailman.qth.net This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html
Re: [Elecraft] K3 Suddenly died
I stated the voltage drop across a resistance (the wire conductor) is directly proportional to the amount of current flow (amperage) through it. For a given resistance, as the current increases through it, the voltage drop increases in it. Changing the supply voltage will change the current flow through the same conductor resistance and affect the voltage drop in it. -Original Message- From: Walter Underwood Sent: Monday, October 07, 2013 10:20 AM To: Elecraft Reflector Subject: Re: [Elecraft] K3 Suddenly died There is a point which could be made -- the percentage voltage drop is bigger at 12V than at 120V. If the voltage drop on your power supply wire is 2V for a given current, that is the same regardless of the supply voltage. With a 120V supply, the wire will deliver 118V and with 13.8V it will deliver 11.8V. So the same voltage drop can matter more at lower supply voltages. Note that I'm ignoring the difference between AC and DC and skin effect. wunder K6WRU __ Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:Elecraft@mailman.qth.net This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html
Re: [Elecraft] K3 Suddenly died
Of course. My point was for a given current, so 20A at 120V and 20A at 13.8V. --wunder, K6WRU On Oct 7, 2013, at 9:03 AM, Richard Fjeld wrote: I stated the voltage drop across a resistance (the wire conductor) is directly proportional to the amount of current flow (amperage) through it. For a given resistance, as the current increases through it, the voltage drop increases in it. Changing the supply voltage will change the current flow through the same conductor resistance and affect the voltage drop in it. -Original Message- From: Walter Underwood Sent: Monday, October 07, 2013 10:20 AM To: Elecraft Reflector Subject: Re: [Elecraft] K3 Suddenly died There is a point which could be made -- the percentage voltage drop is bigger at 12V than at 120V. If the voltage drop on your power supply wire is 2V for a given current, that is the same regardless of the supply voltage. With a 120V supply, the wire will deliver 118V and with 13.8V it will deliver 11.8V. So the same voltage drop can matter more at lower supply voltages. Note that I'm ignoring the difference between AC and DC and skin effect. wunder K6WRU __ Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:Elecraft@mailman.qth.net This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html
Re: [Elecraft] K3 Suddenly died
My gosh! Did several people get up on the wrong side of the bed this morning??? Don't forget that any time you suspect voltage droop at the rig, you can tap DISP and turn the VFO B knob to read either supply voltage or current during receive or under full transmit load. 73, Ron AC7AC __ Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:Elecraft@mailman.qth.net This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html
Re: [Elecraft] K3 Suddenly died
Mark, You said; If we tried to use the same cable at 10 times the current we would have 10 times the voltage drop. To avoid that we use a larger diameter conductor. Yes! People interpret statements differently. There is a problem with brevity on a reflector such as this. My opening statement of my original post would have been better as this; Our house wiring codes in my area say that #12 wire can be used for 20 Amp max (with certain conditions) for 120 Volt circuits. I said 'typically ~117 volts'. (There are other factors for this rating.) When I think of 20 amps of current in a 13.8 volt circuit, I first think 12 gauge wire, but if voltage drop is a concern, then it may be necessary to go with a larger diameter conductor. I mentioned short lead lengths often save us (from voltage drop). The real point of my post was how to measure the voltage drop in each conductor at key-down (load). It seems to have been missed. You can do this with one DMM lead at the power supply end, and the other lead at the radio end* for each conductor. You will measure the actual voltage drop in each conductor, one at a time. The total drop will be the sum of the two conductor drops. *For this measurement, the 12V out jack will not show an accurate voltage drop on each conductor. However, the 12V out jack can be used for a quick and convenient fault check of the power cable and power pole connector continuity by measuring the voltage during key-down at the 12V out jack. I caution folks to wire up a plug for making fault-free connections to this jack. My K3/100 at the 12V out jack reads approx. 1.4 volts less than my power supply voltage with adequate cabling at 100 watts key-down. Sorry for so much band-width, but it is necessary to avoid mis-understanding. Dick, n0ce -Original Message- From: Mark Bayern Sent: Monday, October 07, 2013 10:57 AM To: Richard Fjeld Cc: j...@audiosystemsgroup.com ; Elecraft Reflector Subject: Re: [Elecraft] K3 Suddenly died If a conductor (wire) is rated for 20 amps at 120 volts for a given length (due to it's R), 1 -- The voltage rating of a conductor has to do with its insulation. It has nothing to do with the potential current flow or what you're calling the wire's R. 2 -- The applied voltage has no effect on the voltage drop of a conductor. Look at Ohm's Law again. The voltage drop is due to the resistance of the conductor (wire) and the current flowing through that conductor. A conductor with a 2 ohm resistance will have 2 volt drop when 1 amp flows. That 2 volts is the same for any applied voltage as long as there is 1 amp flowing. It can be a 12 volt system, a 120volt system or a 1200 volt system. One amp flowing through a conductor that has a 2 ohm resistance will have a 2 volt drop. ... and we want to use that same wire for 20 amps at 13.8 volts, we must reduce R by either increasing the wire size, decreasing the length, or a combination of both. Wrong. If the conductor is good for 20amps it is good for 20amps _at_any_voltage_. This is probably what activated Jim's Nonsense Alert! beacon. So ... why use larger conductors at lower voltages? Because for most uses we want to transfer power. To keep the power the same, we need more current at lower voltages. Example: A cable that supplies 120 watts at 120Volts needs to conduct 1 amp of current flow. (Power = current times voltage. P = I * E ). To get the same 120watts from a 12V system you will need 10 amps of current flow. If we tried to use the same cable at 10 times the current we would have 10 times the voltage drop. To avoid that we use a larger diameter conductor. Mark AD5SS __ Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:Elecraft@mailman.qth.net This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html
Re: [Elecraft] K3 Suddenly died
Hi Ron, Yes, but it will show internal voltage drop in addition to the power lead conductor(s) drop, especially at key-down with full load. (At least mine does.) I wanted to say this before people would think they had a problem. Dick, n0ce -Original Message- From: Ron D'Eau Claire Sent: Monday, October 07, 2013 12:28 PM To: 'Elecraft Reflector' Subject: Re: [Elecraft] K3 Suddenly died My gosh! Did several people get up on the wrong side of the bed this morning??? Don't forget that any time you suspect voltage droop at the rig, you can tap DISP and turn the VFO B knob to read either supply voltage or current during receive or under full transmit load. 73, Ron AC7AC __ Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:Elecraft@mailman.qth.net This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html
Re: [Elecraft] K3 Suddenly died
I think that's a big reason why US autos went from 6V to 12V systems bank in the Late Bronze Age. :-) 73, Fred K6DGW - Northern California Contest Club - CU in the 2014 Cal QSO Party 4-5 Oct 2014 - www.cqp.org PW: Thanks to all who worked N6M in Alpine County in the Cal QSO this last weekend. If you worked us on SSB, you had a 1 in 5 chance of getting your Q with me at the paddle ... well, computer. On 10/7/2013 8:20 AM, Walter Underwood wrote: There is a point which could be made -- the percentage voltage drop is bigger at 12V than at 120V. __ Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:Elecraft@mailman.qth.net This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html
Re: [Elecraft] K3 Suddenly died
and reached the used by date Gary On 8 October 2013 06:30, Fred Jensen k6...@foothill.net wrote: I think that's a big reason why US autos went from 6V to 12V systems bank in the Late Bronze Age. :-) 73, Fred K6DGW - Northern California Contest Club - CU in the 2014 Cal QSO Party 4-5 Oct 2014 - www.cqp.org PW: Thanks to all who worked N6M in Alpine County in the Cal QSO this last weekend. If you worked us on SSB, you had a 1 in 5 chance of getting your Q with me at the paddle ... well, computer. On 10/7/2013 8:20 AM, Walter Underwood wrote: There is a point which could be made -- the percentage voltage drop is bigger at 12V than at 120V. __**__**__ Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/**mailman/listinfo/elecrafthttp://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.**htmhttp://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:elecr...@mailman.qth.**net Elecraft@mailman.qth.net This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html -- *Gary - VK1ZZ Skype: Gary.VK1ZZ http://www.qsl.net/vk1zz Motorhome Portable* *Grumpy's House* *Elecraft K3 KPA500FT KAT500FT** * __ Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:Elecraft@mailman.qth.net This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html
Re: [Elecraft] K3 Suddenly died
I have N6M in my log on 80M at 0329z. Thanks to all who worked W6ZZZ in Kings County. On 80M and 15M I was using my K3 at 10-12 watts most of the time. On 40M, 20M or 10M you got Tom with his very old Kenwood at what used to be 100W. He's now trying to figure out how to sneak a K3 past his XYL, and I'm trying to work the same deal for, A 100W dress for my K3 Barbie doll. Cheers - Bill, AE6JV On 10/7/13 at 1:30 PM, k6...@foothill.net (Fred Jensen) wrote: PW: Thanks to all who worked N6M in Alpine County in the Cal QSO this last weekend. If you worked us on SSB, you had a 1 in 5 chance of getting your Q with me at the paddle ... well, computer. --- Bill Frantz|Web security is like medicine - trying to do good for 408-356-8506 |an evolved body of kludges - Mark Miller www.pwpconsult.com | __ Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:Elecraft@mailman.qth.net This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html
Re: [Elecraft] K3 Suddenly died
Not to pick on anyone but do I remember wrong? I've never seen Elecraft recommend running a K3/10 at 12w or a K3/100 at 120. Maybe I missed it? I don't this caused the problem but I see this 12/120 pretty frequently. 73 Mike R m: Lewis Phelps l...@n6lew.us To: elecraft@mailman.qth.net List elecraft@mailman.qth.net Subject: [Elecraft] K3 suddenly died Message-ID: 718a33d4-d57f-4fe3-a1c3-46b41775c...@n6lew.us Content-Type: text/plain;charset=us-ascii I'm looking for troubleshooting ideas. My K3-10 suddenly died while in use. Here's what happened: I was listening and transmitting on 15 meters. Heard a station in Kansas 5-9 calling into the California QSO Party. I couldn't reach him despite a strong signal from him. SWR 1.1:0 outputting 12 watts. Beginning to think I was having some kind of problem, I decided to power off the K3 and turn it back on to reset it. When I hit the power switch, the rig shut off with a fairly loud pop from the speakers. Then it wouldn't turn back on at all. Power supply is fine; 13.98 volts from 50 amp Astron linear supply. Power cable is fine; full voltage at rig end of power cord. Disconnected all peripherals (speakers, straight key, transverter control cable and RF coax cables to xv432, and mic (Kenwood MC-90 into front panel). Still no joy. Any suggestions, other than packing it to send to the Mother Ship? Lew N6LEW Lew Phelps N6LEW Pasadena, CA DM04wd Elecraft K3-10 Yaesu FT-7800 l...@n6lew.us www.ntlew.us Georgia Mules and Country boys are fading fast away - The Osborne Brothers __ Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:Elecraft@mailman.qth.net This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html
Re: [Elecraft] K3 Suddenly died
The K3 can safely be set to its maximum QRP/QRO power levels. If any operating limit is exceeded (temperature, voltage, current drain, SWR, reflected power, etc.), power will automatically be rolled back. While this protects the radio 99.9% of the time, things can happen -- lightning, ESD, component failure, Acts of God, pet disasters, 8-year-old-boys, etc. In the present case, some quick resistance or voltage checks might reveal what's going on. Check the Troubleshooting section of the manual, which is pretty extensive and can help you solve most problems. If that doesn't do it, call customer support. 73, Wayne N6KR __ Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:Elecraft@mailman.qth.net This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html
Re: [Elecraft] K3 Suddenly died
Yes, but what about IMD? 73 Mike R Georgia Mules and Country boys are fading fast away - The Osborne Brothers On Oct 6, 2013, at 12:38 PM, Wayne Burdick n...@elecraft.com wrote: The K3 can safely be set to its maximum QRP/QRO power levels. If any operating limit is exceeded (temperature, voltage, current drain, SWR, reflected power, etc.), power will automatically be rolled back. While this protects the radio 99.9% of the time, things can happen -- lightning, ESD, component failure, Acts of God, pet disasters, 8-year-old-boys, etc. In the present case, some quick resistance or voltage checks might reveal what's going on. Check the Troubleshooting section of the manual, which is pretty extensive and can help you solve most problems. If that doesn't do it, call customer support. 73, Wayne N6KR __ Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:Elecraft@mailman.qth.net This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html
Re: [Elecraft] K3 Suddenly died
Thanks for input. We can all stand down on this one. The problem turned out to be a power cable after all. I was using a 3' power cable assembled with fairly light wire (16 gauge). Over time, the wire had flexed sufficiently at the exit from the APP pin that it began to fray. Fraying let to higher resistance, which led to more voltage drop under load, which led to further decay of the wire-pin joint. At the point I reported the problem, the power cord was still showing nominal voltage when not connected to the rig. But (apparently) resistance had risen to the point where the K3 wasn't getting sufficient voltage. All this eventually became clear when the wire was completely cooked, broken, and charred on the end. I shudda tried a different power cord sooner. Lesson learned: don't use 16 smaller gauge wire with Anderson Power Pole connectors, even if you double the wire to fill up the void in the pin. It's still a single stranded wire where it exits from the pin, and the smaller wire size is more vulnerable to flexing, no matter how low the current demand of the load it's carrying. Eventually, this wire can (and did) become a 1 amp fuse. 73, Lew N6LEW PS I don't know the answer to Mike Roger's question about IMD, but I'm willing to bet that the answer is, not a problem. I trust Elecraft's engineers to pay attention to that sort of thing. lew Lew Phelps N6LEW Pasadena, CA DM04wd Elecraft K3-10 Yaesu FT-7800 l...@n6lew.us www.ntlew.us On Oct 6, 2013, at 10:38 AM, Wayne Burdick n...@elecraft.com wrote: The K3 can safely be set to its maximum QRP/QRO power levels. If any operating limit is exceeded (temperature, voltage, current drain, SWR, reflected power, etc.), power will automatically be rolled back. While this protects the radio 99.9% of the time, things can happen -- lightning, ESD, component failure, Acts of God, pet disasters, 8-year-old-boys, etc. In the present case, some quick resistance or voltage checks might reveal what's going on. Check the Troubleshooting section of the manual, which is pretty extensive and can help you solve most problems. If that doesn't do it, call customer support. 73, Wayne N6KR __ Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:Elecraft@mailman.qth.net This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html __ Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:Elecraft@mailman.qth.net This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html
Re: [Elecraft] K3 Suddenly died
What about it? Sent from my iPhone On Oct 6, 2013, at 2:28 PM, mikerodgerske5...@yahoo.com wrote: Yes, but what about IMD? 73 Mike R Georgia Mules and Country boys are fading fast away - The Osborne Brothers On Oct 6, 2013, at 12:38 PM, Wayne Burdick n...@elecraft.com wrote: The K3 can safely be set to its maximum QRP/QRO power levels. If any operating limit is exceeded (temperature, voltage, current drain, SWR, reflected power, etc.), power will automatically be rolled back. While this protects the radio 99.9% of the time, things can happen -- lightning, ESD, component failure, Acts of God, pet disasters, 8-year-old-boys, etc. In the present case, some quick resistance or voltage checks might reveal what's going on. Check the Troubleshooting section of the manual, which is pretty extensive and can help you solve most problems. If that doesn't do it, call customer support. 73, Wayne N6KR __ Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:Elecraft@mailman.qth.net This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html __ Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:Elecraft@mailman.qth.net This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html
Re: [Elecraft] K3 Suddenly died
In case anybody is interested, electronic equipment does just suddenly fail. Even stuff built by our beloved Elecraft George, W6GF From: Grant Youngman n...@tx.rr.com To: mikerodgerske5...@yahoo.com mikerodgerske5...@yahoo.com Cc: elecraft@mailman.qth.net elecraft@mailman.qth.net Sent: Sunday, October 6, 2013 1:45 PM Subject: Re: [Elecraft] K3 Suddenly died What about it? Sent from my iPhone On Oct 6, 2013, at 2:28 PM, mikerodgerske5...@yahoo.com wrote: Yes, but what about IMD? 73 Mike R Georgia Mules and Country boys are fading fast away - The Osborne Brothers On Oct 6, 2013, at 12:38 PM, Wayne Burdick n...@elecraft.com wrote: The K3 can safely be set to its maximum QRP/QRO power levels. If any operating limit is exceeded (temperature, voltage, current drain, SWR, reflected power, etc.), power will automatically be rolled back. While this protects the radio 99.9% of the time, things can happen -- lightning, ESD, component failure, Acts of God, pet disasters, 8-year-old-boys, etc. In the present case, some quick resistance or voltage checks might reveal what's going on. Check the Troubleshooting section of the manual, which is pretty extensive and can help you solve most problems. If that doesn't do it, call customer support. 73, Wayne N6KR __ Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto: This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html __ Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:Elecraft@mailman.qth.net This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html __ Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:Elecraft@mailman.qth.net This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html
Re: [Elecraft] K3 Suddenly died
Well it won't do 120 watts, only goes to 110. And , page 9 of the manual details the by band output power with a warning that IMD and spurious products are specified at 100 watts. Read between the lines. ...bill nr4c Sent from my Verizon Wireless 4G LTE DROID mikerodgerske5...@yahoo.com wrote: Not to pick on anyone but do I remember wrong? I've never seen Elecraft recommend running a K3/10 at 12w or a K3/100 at 120. Maybe I missed it? I don't this caused the problem but I see this 12/120 pretty frequently. 73 Mike R m: Lewis Phelps l...@n6lew.us To: elecraft@mailman.qth.net List elecraft@mailman.qth.net Subject: [Elecraft] K3 suddenly died Message-ID: 718a33d4-d57f-4fe3-a1c3-46b41775c...@n6lew.us Content-Type: text/plain;charset=us-ascii I'm looking for troubleshooting ideas. My K3-10 suddenly died while in use. Here's what happened: I was listening and transmitting on 15 meters. Heard a station in Kansas 5-9 calling into the California QSO Party. I couldn't reach him despite a strong signal from him. SWR 1.1:0 outputting 12 watts. Beginning to think I was having some kind of problem, I decided to power off the K3 and turn it back on to reset it. When I hit the power switch, the rig shut off with a fairly loud pop from the speakers. Then it wouldn't turn back on at all. Power supply is fine; 13.98 volts from 50 amp Astron linear supply. Power cable is fine; full voltage at rig end of power cord. Disconnected all peripherals (speakers, straight key, transverter control cable and RF coax cables to xv432, and mic (Kenwood MC-90 into front panel). Still no joy. Any suggestions, other than packing it to send to the Mother Ship? Lew N6LEW Lew Phelps N6LEW Pasadena, CA DM04wd Elecraft K3-10 Yaesu FT-7800 l...@n6lew.us www.ntlew.us Georgia Mules and Country boys are fading fast away - The Osborne Brothers __ Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:Elecraft@mailman.qth.net This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html __ Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:Elecraft@mailman.qth.net This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html
Re: [Elecraft] K3 Suddenly died
Actually, both outputs are correct. When first released the K3 did go to 120w but was later reduced to 110 by a FW revision which is maintained in all FW versions from that date if my memory serves me correctly. In the interest of keeping IMD to a minimum, best practice is to set the k3 output to sub-100w. The amount of signal loss when using a setting of say 95w is arguably not to be noticed other than with test equipment. My AUD 2 cents worth..I get short changed on the exchange rate anyway...:-) Gary On 7 October 2013 12:08, bill conkling n...@widomaker.com wrote: Well it won't do 120 watts, only goes to 110. And , page 9 of the manual details the by band output power with a warning that IMD and spurious products are specified at 100 watts. Read between the lines. ...bill nr4c Sent from my Verizon Wireless 4G LTE DROID mikerodgerske5...@yahoo.com wrote: Not to pick on anyone but do I remember wrong? I've never seen Elecraft recommend running a K3/10 at 12w or a K3/100 at 120. Maybe I missed it? I don't this caused the problem but I see this 12/120 pretty frequently. 73 Mike R m: Lewis Phelps l...@n6lew.us To: elecraft@mailman.qth.net List elecraft@mailman.qth.net Subject: [Elecraft] K3 suddenly died Message-ID: 718a33d4-d57f-4fe3-a1c3-46b41775c...@n6lew.us Content-Type: text/plain;charset=us-ascii I'm looking for troubleshooting ideas. My K3-10 suddenly died while in use. Here's what happened: I was listening and transmitting on 15 meters. Heard a station in Kansas 5-9 calling into the California QSO Party. I couldn't reach him despite a strong signal from him. SWR 1.1:0 outputting 12 watts. Beginning to think I was having some kind of problem, I decided to power off the K3 and turn it back on to reset it. When I hit the power switch, the rig shut off with a fairly loud pop from the speakers. Then it wouldn't turn back on at all. Power supply is fine; 13.98 volts from 50 amp Astron linear supply. Power cable is fine; full voltage at rig end of power cord. Disconnected all peripherals (speakers, straight key, transverter control cable and RF coax cables to xv432, and mic (Kenwood MC-90 into front panel). Still no joy. Any suggestions, other than packing it to send to the Mother Ship? Lew N6LEW Lew Phelps N6LEW Pasadena, CA DM04wd Elecraft K3-10 Yaesu FT-7800 l...@n6lew.us www.ntlew.us Georgia Mules and Country boys are fading fast away - The Osborne Brothers __ Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:Elecraft@mailman.qth.net This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html __ Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:Elecraft@mailman.qth.net This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html -- *Gary - VK1ZZ Skype: Gary.VK1ZZ http://www.qsl.net/vk1zz Motorhome Portable* *Grumpy's House* *Elecraft K3 KPA500FT KAT500FT** * __ Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:Elecraft@mailman.qth.net This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html
Re: [Elecraft] K3 Suddenly died
When we think of wire gauge requirements for amperage needs, we need to remember the amperage rating for wire is given for house voltage, typically ~117 volts AC (in the US). For lower voltage at 13.8 VDC, we need larger wire size (smaller gauge number). What often saves us is short lead lengths. Still, if one measures the voltage drop of a conductor under load by using a DMM with a test lead at each end of the wire, a drop will be seen if the wire size is not adequate for the load. (Emphasis on 'under load'.) The voltage drop across a resistance (in this case a conductor) is directly proportional to the amount of current flow through the resistance. At idle current, very little voltage drop will be measured in the resistance of the conductor. The 12V jack on the back of the radio cannot be used to accurately measure voltage drop in the power cable, but the voltage measured during key-down will be approximately 1.4 volts less than the PS voltage if the cable is good. An RCA plug can be wired to make the test connections safely. Dick, n0ce -Original Message- From: Lewis Phelps Sent: Sunday, October 06, 2013 2:43 PM To: elecraft@mailman.qth.net List Subject: Re: [Elecraft] K3 Suddenly died Thanks for input. We can all stand down on this one. The problem turned out to be a power cable after all. I was using a 3' power cable assembled with fairly light wire (16 gauge). Over time, the wire had flexed sufficiently at the exit from the APP pin that it began to fray. Fraying let to higher resistance, which led to more voltage drop under load, which led to further decay of the wire-pin joint. At the point I reported the problem, the power cord was still showing nominal voltage when not connected to the rig. But (apparently) resistance had risen to the point where the K3 wasn't getting sufficient voltage. All this eventually became clear when the wire was completely cooked, broken, and charred on the end. I shudda tried a different power cord sooner. Lesson learned: don't use 16 smaller gauge wire with Anderson Power Pole connectors, even if you double the wire to fill up the void in the pin. It's still a single stranded wire where it exits from the pin, and the smaller wire size is more vulnerable to flexing, no matter how low the current demand of the load it's carrying. Eventually, this wire can (and did) become a 1 amp fuse. 73, Lew N6LEW __ Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:Elecraft@mailman.qth.net This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html
[Elecraft] K3 suddenly died
I'm looking for troubleshooting ideas. My K3-10 suddenly died while in use. Here's what happened: I was listening and transmitting on 15 meters. Heard a station in Kansas 5-9 calling into the California QSO Party. I couldn't reach him despite a strong signal from him. SWR 1.1:0 outputting 12 watts. Beginning to think I was having some kind of problem, I decided to power off the K3 and turn it back on to reset it. When I hit the power switch, the rig shut off with a fairly loud pop from the speakers. Then it wouldn't turn back on at all. Power supply is fine; 13.98 volts from 50 amp Astron linear supply. Power cable is fine; full voltage at rig end of power cord. Disconnected all peripherals (speakers, straight key, transverter control cable and RF coax cables to xv432, and mic (Kenwood MC-90 into front panel). Still no joy. Any suggestions, other than packing it to send to the Mother Ship? Lew N6LEW Lew Phelps N6LEW Pasadena, CA DM04wd Elecraft K3-10 Yaesu FT-7800 l...@n6lew.us www.ntlew.us __ Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:Elecraft@mailman.qth.net This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html
Re: [Elecraft] K3 suddenly died
Belay my last. K3 resurrected itself after about an hour. Is this a thermal shutoff issue? What might be the underlying cause? Lew Lew Phelps N6LEW Pasadena, CA DM04wd Elecraft K3-10 Yaesu FT-7800 l...@n6lew.us www.ntlew.us On Oct 5, 2013, at 1:16 PM, Lewis Phelps l...@n6lew.us wrote: I'm looking for troubleshooting ideas. My K3-10 suddenly died while in use. Here's what happened: I was listening and transmitting on 15 meters. Heard a station in Kansas 5-9 calling into the California QSO Party. I couldn't reach him despite a strong signal from him. SWR 1.1:0 outputting 12 watts. Beginning to think I was having some kind of problem, I decided to power off the K3 and turn it back on to reset it. When I hit the power switch, the rig shut off with a fairly loud pop from the speakers. Then it wouldn't turn back on at all. Power supply is fine; 13.98 volts from 50 amp Astron linear supply. Power cable is fine; full voltage at rig end of power cord. Disconnected all peripherals (speakers, straight key, transverter control cable and RF coax cables to xv432, and mic (Kenwood MC-90 into front panel). Still no joy. Any suggestions, other than packing it to send to the Mother Ship? Lew N6LEW Lew Phelps N6LEW Pasadena, CA DM04wd Elecraft K3-10 Yaesu FT-7800 l...@n6lew.us www.ntlew.us __ Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:Elecraft@mailman.qth.net This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html __ Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:Elecraft@mailman.qth.net This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html
