Re: [Elecraft] Off-Topic - Straight-key speed cpontrol
Well, you could knock me down with a feather ! (As mum used to say) I cannot imagine sending for more than a few minutes like that. From your description, the upper arm must be at a considerable angle to the body, whereas the way I'm used to, the upper arm is vertical, ie in a 'natural' or relaxed position. Similarly, with the lower arm horizontal, the wrist has an easy time because it is also in an easy, relaxed position. With your description, the wrist must be bent quite sharply and I can imagine glass arm following quite quickly, hence the bug key invention so the whole arm rests on the table. I had a quick look in that book but couldn't find a picture of the method you describe. I drew a side view for RADCOM several years ago showing the sitting position and received no comments. There's a modern equivalent: the computer key board and mouse. I use these several hours a day and need my chair raised quite high to get my arms as near horizontal as possible, but it's never quite right, hence I use wrist supports for both. That's why typist chairs are so much higher than desk chairs. The way I've explained it to trainees is that the wrist and fingers are like a gearbox, or, perhaps in modern parlance - an interface - between the heavy weight of the arm and the delicate instrument which is the fingers. The fingers stay flexible and springy as the wrist bounces up and down over a range of 2 to 3 inches which is translated by the fingers into a movement of perhaps only 2 to 4 thou, ie less than a paper thickness for high speed work. By the way I used a spring setting around 2oz. I could go on... Thanks for the education Ron, Ken and all. 73 David G3UNA Ha, ha David. We're separated by more than a common language! The first time I saw the form of sending you describe with the arm in mid-air was about 10 years ago and I was astounded! Here in the USA since the the military and so civilian services taught everyone to lay their arm on the desk as Ken described. That goes back to, at least, the mid 1930's. That's how I've always used a straight key. I visited a buddy in Holland for the first time a few years ago and took with me as a gift a nice straight key. He immediately put it on the edge of his desk and wailed away on it with his arm in the air. My jaw dropped. We did do that here but only in mobile units where the key was strapped to one leg. In that use we also cranked the spring tension down much tighter than normal when the key was on the desk. Ron AC7AC -Original Message- The elbow should rest on the desk and the fingers on the key's knob. I couldn't disagree more! I have always taught as I was taught that the key is at the edge of the desk and no part of your body touches the desk, except perhaps the other hand. The forearm should be horizontal, sit up straight and relax the shoulders. It's very similar to typing. The telegraphers of old had to send for hours and this is the way they did it; I was one once. 73 David G3UNA __ Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:Elecraft@mailman.qth.net This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html
Re: [Elecraft] Off-Topic - Straight-key speed cpontrol
Hi All, May I offer another suggestion? First of all, I tend to agree with those who say the forearm should be supported by the table, with the upper arm vertical. Seems to me that not supporting the arm with the table would substantially add to the probability of fatigue. Anyway, my suggestion is this--relax! Seriously, I think a substantial contributor to fatigue and glass arm is tension. The wrist and hand cannot really perform effectively when tension is permitted. Under tension, the muscles soon tire. I like to compare this to a golf swing, in that nothing will defeat a golf swing more than tension. There is absolutely no way you can properly execute a golf swing if your arms are locked and tense. I think the same principal applies here. I taught CW for a while when I was in the Army. I probably didn't have command of all the appropriate techniques, but when I saw a student (most of them actually) with a death grip on his key, I knew the output was going to be pretty stinko--at least after a short while. By just getting them to relax their forearm and wrist, the improvement was really quite dramatic. It sometimes took a while to adjust their rhythm to a proper and relaxed rocking motion of the wrist, but it usually worked. There's a lot more to good technique than just what I have described. I think folks like Ron, KU7Y, (he wrote a booklet on this sort of stuff), and others, could add a great deal. I'm pretty sure my overall technique was lacking in many ways, but there are some folks out there who can make a hand key sing! Dave W7AQK - Original Message - From: David Cutter d.cut...@ntlworld.com To: Ron D'Eau Claire r...@cobi.biz; 'Ken Kopp' k...@rfwave.net; elecraft@mailman.qth.net Sent: Friday, August 07, 2009 11:48 PM Subject: Re: [Elecraft] Off-Topic - Straight-key speed cpontrol Well, you could knock me down with a feather ! (As mum used to say) I cannot imagine sending for more than a few minutes like that. From your description, the upper arm must be at a considerable angle to the body, whereas the way I'm used to, the upper arm is vertical, ie in a 'natural' or relaxed position. Similarly, with the lower arm horizontal, the wrist has an easy time because it is also in an easy, relaxed position. With your description, the wrist must be bent quite sharply and I can imagine glass arm following quite quickly, hence the bug key invention so the whole arm rests on the table. I had a quick look in that book but couldn't find a picture of the method you describe. I drew a side view for RADCOM several years ago showing the sitting position and received no comments. There's a modern equivalent: the computer key board and mouse. I use these several hours a day and need my chair raised quite high to get my arms as near horizontal as possible, but it's never quite right, hence I use wrist supports for both. That's why typist chairs are so much higher than desk chairs. The way I've explained it to trainees is that the wrist and fingers are like a gearbox, or, perhaps in modern parlance - an interface - between the heavy weight of the arm and the delicate instrument which is the fingers. The fingers stay flexible and springy as the wrist bounces up and down over a range of 2 to 3 inches which is translated by the fingers into a movement of perhaps only 2 to 4 thou, ie less than a paper thickness for high speed work. By the way I used a spring setting around 2oz. I could go on... Thanks for the education Ron, Ken and all. 73 David G3UNA Ha, ha David. We're separated by more than a common language! The first time I saw the form of sending you describe with the arm in mid-air was about 10 years ago and I was astounded! Here in the USA since the the military and so civilian services taught everyone to lay their arm on the desk as Ken described. That goes back to, at least, the mid 1930's. That's how I've always used a straight key. I visited a buddy in Holland for the first time a few years ago and took with me as a gift a nice straight key. He immediately put it on the edge of his desk and wailed away on it with his arm in the air. My jaw dropped. We did do that here but only in mobile units where the key was strapped to one leg. In that use we also cranked the spring tension down much tighter than normal when the key was on the desk. Ron AC7AC -Original Message- The elbow should rest on the desk and the fingers on the key's knob. I couldn't disagree more! I have always taught as I was taught that the key is at the edge of the desk and no part of your body touches the desk, except perhaps the other hand. The forearm should be horizontal, sit up straight and relax the shoulders. It's very similar to typing. The telegraphers of old had to send for hours and this is the way they did it; I was one once. 73 David G3UNA
Re: [Elecraft] Off-Topic - Straight-key speed cpontrol
David That's something I can't understand. How do you make the upper arm vertical (in both views) with the elbow on the table? The table would have to be very low or your chair very high and your stomach right up (and over) the edge of the table. Do you sit square to the table or at an angle? A picture would paint a thousand words. 73 David G3UNA ps a friend has suggested that you sit that way to send American Morse whereas we sit our way to send International Morse. Phew, I can feel the flames licking around me already ; - ] Hi All, May I offer another suggestion? First of all, I tend to agree with those who say the forearm should be supported by the table, with the upper arm vertical. Seems to me that not supporting the arm with the table would substantially add to the probability of fatigue. Anyway, my suggestion is this--relax! Seriously, I think a substantial contributor to fatigue and glass arm is tension. The wrist and hand cannot really perform effectively when tension is permitted. Under tension, the muscles soon tire. I like to compare this to a golf swing, in that nothing will defeat a golf swing more than tension. There is absolutely no way you can properly execute a golf swing if your arms are locked and tense. I think the same principal applies here. I taught CW for a while when I was in the Army. I probably didn't have command of all the appropriate techniques, but when I saw a student (most of them actually) with a death grip on his key, I knew the output was going to be pretty stinko--at least after a short while. By just getting them to relax their forearm and wrist, the improvement was really quite dramatic. It sometimes took a while to adjust their rhythm to a proper and relaxed rocking motion of the wrist, but it usually worked. There's a lot more to good technique than just what I have described. I think folks like Ron, KU7Y, (he wrote a booklet on this sort of stuff), and others, could add a great deal. I'm pretty sure my overall technique was lacking in many ways, but there are some folks out there who can make a hand key sing! Dave W7AQK __ Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:Elecraft@mailman.qth.net This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html
Re: [Elecraft] Off-Topic - Straight-key speed cpontrol
Let me jump ont this wagon too. (Having taught morsecode receiving and sending to radio-officers for 5 years) I was taught the 'EU-way', key on the side of the table. So, I taught that to my student also. What i see and feel when I do it the 'US-way', elbow on the table, it works fine as long as I relax and let the wrist talk. Not any different from the 'EU-way'. I would use different keys for the two ways though. 73, Arie PA3A (PS: most of the time I use a vibroplex now) __ Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:Elecraft@mailman.qth.net This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html
Re: [Elecraft] Off-Topic - Straight-key speed cpontrol
David and All, Well, I actually didn't intend to infer that the upper arm had to be perfectly vertical. That is usually dicated by the height of the operating table. I was basically trying to say that the arm would/should not be totally extended, and that the forearm would/should be supported by the table. However, your question makes me wonder if there might be some benefit to having a key lower somewhat so that the upper arm could be more vertical. I'll have to try that. Basically though, the idea is to have the forearm resting comfortably, so that weight of the arm is not a factor. The hand and wrist do the work, not the arm. It just seems to me, from your drawing, the arm would tend to be more involved in the process. That further suggests to me that the tension thing I talked about would be more of a problem--perhaps not. When I rest my forearm on the table, I can relax my arm. In the position shown in your drawing, I would have to support the weight of the arm using arm and shoulder muscles. It just seems logical to me that this would have to cause some amount of fatigue at some point. The bottom line I think is that the arm should be as comfortable as possible. It has been a while since I really did long hours with a hand key. When I was in the Army though, it was 8 hours a day. I distinctly remember that some operating tables seemed too high, so I was always looking for an adjustable chair. My arms seem to be more relaxed when they are closer to my body, but that may really be a question of relaxing the shoulders as well. I prefer to have the key closer to me, so that does suggest that the upper arms be more vertical than extended. That may sound mundane, but for long operating periods I think it matters. You might experiment a bit. Dave W7AQK - Original Message - From: David Cutter d.cut...@ntlworld.com To: David Y. w7...@cox.net; Ron D'Eau Claire r...@cobi.biz; 'Ken Kopp' k...@rfwave.net; elecraft@mailman.qth.net Sent: Saturday, August 08, 2009 1:27 AM Subject: Re: [Elecraft] Off-Topic - Straight-key speed cpontrol David That's something I can't understand. How do you make the upper arm vertical (in both views) with the elbow on the table? The table would have to be very low or your chair very high and your stomach right up (and over) the edge of the table. Do you sit square to the table or at an angle? A picture would paint a thousand words. 73 David G3UNA ps a friend has suggested that you sit that way to send American Morse whereas we sit our way to send International Morse. Phew, I can feel the flames licking around me already ; - ] Hi All, May I offer another suggestion? First of all, I tend to agree with those who say the forearm should be supported by the table, with the upper arm vertical. Seems to me that not supporting the arm with the table would substantially add to the probability of fatigue. Anyway, my suggestion is this--relax! Seriously, I think a substantial contributor to fatigue and glass arm is tension. The wrist and hand cannot really perform effectively when tension is permitted. Under tension, the muscles soon tire. I like to compare this to a golf swing, in that nothing will defeat a golf swing more than tension. There is absolutely no way you can properly execute a golf swing if your arms are locked and tense. I think the same principal applies here. I taught CW for a while when I was in the Army. I probably didn't have command of all the appropriate techniques, but when I saw a student (most of them actually) with a death grip on his key, I knew the output was going to be pretty stinko--at least after a short while. By just getting them to relax their forearm and wrist, the improvement was really quite dramatic. It sometimes took a while to adjust their rhythm to a proper and relaxed rocking motion of the wrist, but it usually worked. There's a lot more to good technique than just what I have described. I think folks like Ron, KU7Y, (he wrote a booklet on this sort of stuff), and others, could add a great deal. I'm pretty sure my overall technique was lacking in many ways, but there are some folks out there who can make a hand key sing! Dave W7AQK __ Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:Elecraft@mailman.qth.net This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html
Re: [Elecraft] Off-Topic - Straight-key speed cpontrol
On Sat, 08 Aug 2009 01:10:05 -0700, Dave W7AQK wrote: Hi All, May I offer another suggestion? First of all, I tend to agree with those who say the forearm should be supported by the table, with the upper arm vertical. Seems to me that not supporting the arm with the table would substantially add to the probability of fatigue. Have to disagree here... Arm-off-the-table works fine for me: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=x-JkkkKGUHMfmt=18 I can do this all day... http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SythbsvxZfAfmt=18 Even the worst key is useable (but I wouldn't recommend it)... http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GSSAGY_L6YEfmt=18 I think maintaining a loose linkage in the wrist, elbow and shoulder really helps to relax. I like to fidgit around a bit while sending CW; can't do that with my arm glued to the table. YMMV, of course! Whatever works best for you. 73, Drew AF2Z __ Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:Elecraft@mailman.qth.net This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html
Re: [Elecraft] Off-Topic - Straight-key speed cpontrol
That's very similar to what I had in mind. Here is a link to my sketch, kindly hosted by David G4DMP In my style, the pressure comes from the middle finger onto the disc and that finger takes all of the bounce. I find bunching the fingers together onto the key knob very tiring and I've added a disc to several keys. I have thousands of these discs, so, if anyone wants some, let me know. http://www.g4dmp.co.uk/MorseOperator.doc 73 David G3UNA Hi All, May I offer another suggestion? First of all, I tend to agree with those who say the forearm should be supported by the table, with the upper arm vertical. Seems to me that not supporting the arm with the table would substantially add to the probability of fatigue. Have to disagree here... Arm-off-the-table works fine for me: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=x-JkkkKGUHMfmt=18 I can do this all day... http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SythbsvxZfAfmt=18 Even the worst key is useable (but I wouldn't recommend it)... http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GSSAGY_L6YEfmt=18 I think maintaining a loose linkage in the wrist, elbow and shoulder really helps to relax. I like to fidgit around a bit while sending CW; can't do that with my arm glued to the table. YMMV, of course! Whatever works best for you. 73, Drew AF2Z __ Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:Elecraft@mailman.qth.net This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html
Re: [Elecraft] Off-Topic - Straight-key speed cpontrol -- Ergonomics
I think maintaining a loose linkage in the wrist, elbow and shoulder really helps to relax. I like to fidgit around a bit while sending CW; can't do that with my arm glued to the table. YMMV, of course! Whatever works best for you. I recently bought a Natural keyboard from Microsoft which has an angled split down the middle so the left and right hands are less inclined to intertwine themselves around the middle letters. As I get used to it, it's gradually helping me improve my touch typing. It's sold on the benefits for sufferers of Repetitive Strain Injury (= typists elbow = glass arm). Of a little more relevance, it came with an oversized mouse with a high thumb groove and operating instructions that tell me to lay the right side of my hand on the table next to the mouse, then rotate my hand until the thumb reaches the groove, *leaving the side of my hand still resting on the table*. Like the keyboard, it felt a little odd at first but I'm getting used to to it ... And now I'm starting to wonder about tilting my Bencher paddle in a similar way. I can easily make a little wooden wedge to lift the left paddle relative to the right, but a total redesign of the paddle to suit my hand's natural resting position will probably work better than the original paddle design which sits parallel to the desk. 73 Gary ZL2iFB __ Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:Elecraft@mailman.qth.net This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html
[Elecraft] Off-Topic - Straight-key speed cpontrol
If you have trouble holding a steady sending speed try tapping a heel or toe, as if you are a musician. And, the should-be-obvious -don't- lay your arm on the desk and only use your wrist to send. The elbow should rest on the desk and the fingers on the key's knob. The wrist acts as a spring or damper. 73! Ken - K0PP elecraftcov...@rfwave.net http://tinyurl.com/7lm3m5 __ Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:Elecraft@mailman.qth.net This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html
Re: [Elecraft] Off-Topic - Straight-key speed cpontrol
The elbow should rest on the desk and the fingers on the key's knob. I couldn't disagree more! I have always taught as I was taught that the key is at the edge of the desk and no part of your body touches the desk, except perhaps the other hand. The forearm should be horizontal, sit up straight and relax the shoulders. It's very similar to typing. The telegraphers of old had to send for hours and this is the way they did it; I was one once. 73 David G3UNA If you have trouble holding a steady sending speed try tapping a heel or toe, as if you are a musician. And, the should-be-obvious -don't- lay your arm on the desk and only use your wrist to send. The elbow should rest on the desk and the fingers on the key's knob. The wrist acts as a spring or damper. 73! Ken - K0PP __ Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:Elecraft@mailman.qth.net This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html
Re: [Elecraft] Off-Topic - Straight-key speed cpontrol
Ha, ha David. We're separated by more than a common language! The first time I saw the form of sending you describe with the arm in mid-air was about 10 years ago and I was astounded! Here in the USA since the the military and so civilian services taught everyone to lay their arm on the desk as Ken described. That goes back to, at least, the mid 1930's. That's how I've always used a straight key. I visited a buddy in Holland for the first time a few years ago and took with me as a gift a nice straight key. He immediately put it on the edge of his desk and wailed away on it with his arm in the air. My jaw dropped. We did do that here but only in mobile units where the key was strapped to one leg. In that use we also cranked the spring tension down much tighter than normal when the key was on the desk. Ron AC7AC -Original Message- The elbow should rest on the desk and the fingers on the key's knob. I couldn't disagree more! I have always taught as I was taught that the key is at the edge of the desk and no part of your body touches the desk, except perhaps the other hand. The forearm should be horizontal, sit up straight and relax the shoulders. It's very similar to typing. The telegraphers of old had to send for hours and this is the way they did it; I was one once. 73 David G3UNA __ Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:Elecraft@mailman.qth.net This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html
Re: [Elecraft] Off-Topic - Straight-key speed cpontrol
The elbow should rest on the desk and the fingers on the key's knob. I couldn't disagree more! I have always taught as I was taught that the key is at the edge of the desk and no part of your body touches the desk, except perhaps the other hand. The forearm should be horizontal, sit up straight and relax the shoulders. It's very similar to typing. The telegraphers of old had to send for hours and this is the way they did it; I was one once. 73 David G3UNA That is the difference between the American and British systems. As I understand it, the British used this method, as I do, to avoid a glass arm. The Americans invented the bug for the same reason. I also use a bug. During WW2, Australian operators, accustomed to the British method, were frustrated when serving on American military aircraft, because the key was screwed to the rear of the operating table. The following is from Chapter 9, Part II of The Art and Skill of Radio-Telegraphy by William G. Pierpont, N0HFF, (SK): As the beginners progress, they adapt their keying style to whatever is comfortable to them individually. There are many variations in adjustment, depending on the particular key design details and the operator's preferences. The Australians and New Zealanders appear to have followed the British practice, but other European countries have not necessarily done so. Australians have said they found it very hard to send properly with the American keys -- with their flat topped key-knobs, located far back from the edge of the table -- as installed in air- ground-air stations during WW-II. They called these keying arrangements a flaming nuisance! In summary, with all these variations in basic and detail design, it seems obvious that there must be more than one way to design a good key and use it. This entire book is available for free download, and can be linked from here: http://www.qsl.net/n9bor/n0hff.htm 73, Rick DettingerK7MW __ Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:Elecraft@mailman.qth.net This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html
Re: [Elecraft] Off-Topic - Straight-key speed cpontrol
Rick, K7MW wrote: That is the difference between the American and British systems. As I understand it, the British used this method, as I do, to avoid a glass arm. -- I was taught to place my arm on the table to avoid glass arm and it works. I've transmitted continuously for hours as a military NCS that laying my arm on the desk was the only way to avoid glass arm syndrome (that I knew about). This is an interesting topic. I suspect it's several different ways to accomplish the same thing, as there are usually several good solutions to a problem. Ron AC7AC __ Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:Elecraft@mailman.qth.net This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html
Re: [Elecraft] Off-Topic - Straight-key speed cpontrol
Aumein! 4x4kf Michael David Cutter wrote: The elbow should rest on the desk and the fingers on the key's knob. I couldn't disagree more! I have always taught as I was taught that the key is at the edge of the desk and no part of your body touches the desk, except perhaps the other hand. The forearm should be horizontal, sit up straight and relax the shoulders. It's very similar to typing. The telegraphers of old had to send for hours and this is the way they did it; I was one once. 73 David G3UNA If you have trouble holding a steady sending speed try tapping a heel or toe, as if you are a musician. And, the should-be-obvious -don't- lay your arm on the desk and only use your wrist to send. The elbow should rest on the desk and the fingers on the key's knob. The wrist acts as a spring or damper. 73! Ken - K0PP __ Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:Elecraft@mailman.qth.net This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html -- __ Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:Elecraft@mailman.qth.net This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html
