Re: [Elecraft] P3 Manual Updates
Bill, I built my P3 yesterday and have to say my delight at its features/performance far outweighed the minor hassle of 'cut and paste' on the manual. Just another part of the construction step and if it allows Eric and Wayne to be cost effective in producing their fine products (per the other comments here) I'll take that tradeoff any day. Just my 2c/2p 73 Dave G3WGN WJ6O - 73 Dave G3WGN WJ6O -- View this message in context: http://elecraft.365791.n2.nabble.com/P3-Manual-Updates-tp6281092p6281263.html Sent from the Elecraft mailing list archive at Nabble.com. __ Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:Elecraft@mailman.qth.net This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html
Re: [Elecraft] P3 Manual Updates
Depends. 73, Mike NF4L On 4/19/2011 3:01 PM, Gary Gregory wrote: > Bill, > > Agreed. Full drawers can be such a pain...:-) > > Gary > > On 20 April 2011 04:36, Bill (K9YEQ) wrote: > >> Fred wrote: >> >> ...Also, it is much easier to use the computer search function on a PDF >> than scanning a paper copy of an obsolescent doc. If hard copy is needed >> the end user can print it off the PDF >> >> This is what I do. Works so much faster and I don't have to keep drawers >> full of manuals. >> >> 73, >> Bill >> K9YEQ >> >> >> -Original Message- >> >> >> __ >> Elecraft mailing list >> Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft >> Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm >> Post: mailto:Elecraft@mailman.qth.net >> >> This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net >> Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html >> > > __ Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:Elecraft@mailman.qth.net This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html
Re: [Elecraft] P3 Manual Updates
Hi Wayne, in his response, suggested that this was an anomaly and that they normally try to keep errata down to a maximum of 1 page. That’s good enough for me. I will wait for the updated PDF file to appear on their web site and I’ll print it off. However, it would be better if the online version could be updated more often Bill -- View this message in context: http://elecraft.365791.n2.nabble.com/P3-Manual-Updates-tp6281092p6288329.html Sent from the Elecraft mailing list archive at Nabble.com. __ Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:Elecraft@mailman.qth.net This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html
Re: [Elecraft] P3 Manual Updates
Bill, Agreed. Full drawers can be such a pain...:-) Gary On 20 April 2011 04:36, Bill (K9YEQ) wrote: > Fred wrote: > > ...Also, it is much easier to use the computer search function on a PDF > than scanning a paper copy of an obsolescent doc. If hard copy is needed > the end user can print it off the PDF > > This is what I do. Works so much faster and I don't have to keep drawers > full of manuals. > > 73, > Bill > K9YEQ > > > -Original Message- > > > __ > Elecraft mailing list > Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft > Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm > Post: mailto:Elecraft@mailman.qth.net > > This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net > Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html > -- VK4FD - Motorhome Mobile Elecraft Equipment K3 #679, KPA-500 #018 Living the dream!!! __ Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:Elecraft@mailman.qth.net This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html
Re: [Elecraft] P3 Manual Updates
Fred wrote: ...Also, it is much easier to use the computer search function on a PDF than scanning a paper copy of an obsolescent doc. If hard copy is needed the end user can print it off the PDF This is what I do. Works so much faster and I don't have to keep drawers full of manuals. 73, Bill K9YEQ -Original Message- __ Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:Elecraft@mailman.qth.net This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html
Re: [Elecraft] P3 Manual Updates
In a recent message, Fred Townsend writes > >Question: Is there any reason why corrected docs can't be immediately >made available for download instead of publishing errata lists? Yes, this will require greater resources on the part of Elecraft at the expense of supporting and the introduction of new products. The present system of updates has worked well since 1999. If it beyond the capability of any qualified radio amateur to go through the manual and make the relevant changes, I despair. 73 de David G4DMP -- + - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - + | David M Pratt, Kippax, Leeds. | | Website: http://www.g4dmp.co.uk | + - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - + __ Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:Elecraft@mailman.qth.net This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html
Re: [Elecraft] P3 Manual Updates
Gentlemen it would seem there are two issues here. Hard copy and soft copy. Let me address soft copy first. The software industry has a similar problem where it deals with dynamic code and its documentation. Bug lists are maintained but not generally published. Instead new code and documentation is released weekly. The user can download the latest code and documentation 24/7. There is no need to chase a problem through the bug lists (errata) because the docs are never more than a week old. Also, it is much easier to use the computer search function on a PDF than scanning a paper copy of an obsolescent doc. If hard copy is needed the end user can print it off the PDF. Question: Is there any reason why corrected docs can't be immediately made available for download instead of publishing errata lists? As far as hard copy manuals to be supplied with purchased hardware goes there are on demand printing services where an e-message notifies the printer of the document type and the customer's snail mail address upon sale. The printer automatically downloads the latest docs and prints a one off copy and addresses the snail mail envelope, prints the postage, and sends the bound document off by snail mail at USPS library book rate. Usually the manual will arrive before the hardware. I suspect this type of service is too expensive for this type manufacturing but it does have the savings of not needing to maintain a manual stock at the factory. One man's opinion. de Fred AE6QL -Original Message- From: elecraft-boun...@mailman.qth.net [mailto:elecraft-boun...@mailman.qth.net] On Behalf Of David Pratt Sent: Sunday, April 17, 2011 8:39 AM To: Bill Henderson Cc: elecraft@mailman.qth.net Subject: Re: [Elecraft] P3 Manual Updates Bill - If Elecraft had printed off 1000 copies of the manual, it would have been a waste of paper and the rain forest for the manuals to have been pulped and new ones printed when a couple of sheets of updates could be produced instead. OTOH, a new manual could be produced and the price of the P3 could be increased accordingly - I think not. If anyone is able to assemble a P3, surely it's not beyond their capability to make the appropriate changes to the manual. [Grumpy mode off] Enjoy your P3, Bill. 73 de David G4DMP In a recent message, Bill Henderson writes >Why on earth did it come with a manual and a list of errata that is >supposed to be cut and pasted to bring the manual up to date? Surely, it wouldn’t have been much more time consuming for you to have made the changes to the manual itself. -- + - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - + | David M Pratt, Kippax, Leeds. | | Website: http://www.g4dmp.co.uk | + - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - + __ Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:Elecraft@mailman.qth.net This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html __ Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:Elecraft@mailman.qth.net This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html
Re: [Elecraft] P3 Manual Updates
Kevin (and all), It would be a mistake but not for that reason. The newer ActiveX formatted documents and spreadsheets are compatible with earlier versions of Word and Excel back to 2000 if you add Microsoft's free document converter add-ons available from: < http://www.microsoft.com/downloads/en/default.aspx> as a "Compatibility Pack". The reason it's a mistake is that it allows others to edit, perhaps incorrectly, the content yet in some circles Elecraft could still be held responsible and that just isn't acceptable. Their current method is a very acceptable compromise between accuracy and cost. Gary N6LRV -Original Message- From: elecraft-boun...@mailman.qth.net [mailto:elecraft-boun...@mailman.qth.net] On Behalf Of R. Kevin Stover Sent: Monday, April 18, 2011 4:52 AM Subject: Re: [Elecraft] P3 Manual Updates That would be a mistake. Biggest reason is the MS Word format isn't static. Every recent new version of MS Office has included several "features" which make it incompatible with older versions. Save a file in MS Word 2007 .docx format and MS Word 2003 wouldn't know what to do with it. Adobe .pdf never changes thus it's a standard. All you have to do to add errata to the .pdf manuals is get a free .pdf editor like PDF Creator, add the errata to an electronic version of the manual and save it. Your manual is always up to date. If you need hard copy, print the pages you need. -- R. Kevin Stover AC0H __ Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:Elecraft@mailman.qth.net This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html __ Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:Elecraft@mailman.qth.net This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html
Re: [Elecraft] P3 Manual Updates
On Sun, 17 Apr 2011 09:35:06 -0700 (PDT) Bill Henderson wrote: > Hi > > I have been shown the instruments of torture. I recant. > > How about giving the option of being able to download Word versions > so that the cutting an pasting can be done on my pc? > > I'm still recanting so there's no need to duff me up. > > Bill > GM0VIT That would be a mistake. Biggest reason is the MS Word format isn't static. Every recent new version of MS Office has included several "features" which make it incompatible with older versions. Save a file in MS Word 2007 .docx format and MS Word 2003 wouldn't know what to do with it. Adobe .pdf never changes thus it's a standard. All you have to do to add errata to the .pdf manuals is get a free .pdf editor like PDF Creator, add the errata to an electronic version of the manual and save it. Your manual is always up to date. If you need hard copy, print the pages you need. -- R. Kevin Stover AC0H __ Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:Elecraft@mailman.qth.net This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html
Re: [Elecraft] P3 Manual Updates
Sure. If you notice a documentation problem, please email supp...@elecraft.com . 73, Wayne N6KR On Apr 17, 2011, at 11:20 AM, Fred Townsend wrote: > Do you have a method of submitting errata? > > de Fred, AE6QL > > -Original Message- > From: elecraft-boun...@mailman.qth.net > [mailto:elecraft-boun...@mailman.qth.net] On Behalf Of Wayne Burdick > Sent: Sunday, April 17, 2011 10:29 AM > To: j...@audiosystemsgroup.com > Cc: elecraft@mailman.qth.net > Subject: Re: [Elecraft] P3 Manual Updates > > Our normal standard for errata sheets is *one* page, max, whenever > possible. > The P3 errata you mentioned is an anomaly. We're going to be > integrating all > errata as quickly as possible. > > 73, > Wayne > N6KR > > > On Apr 17, 2011, at 9:21 AM, Jim Brown wrote: > >> On 4/17/2011 7:42 AM, Bill Henderson wrote: >>> 8 pages of revision in a 27 page >>> document is way too much. >> >> What you're complaining about is one of Elecraft's greatest >> strengths. >> When Yaecomwood upgrades a product, it gets a new model number, and >> if >> you already own the older one, you have to buy the new one and sell >> the >> old (at a loss, of course) to get the improvements. > > > __ > Elecraft mailing list > Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft > Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm > Post: mailto:Elecraft@mailman.qth.net > > This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net > Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html __ Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:Elecraft@mailman.qth.net This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html
Re: [Elecraft] P3 Manual Updates
Do you have a method of submitting errata? de Fred, AE6QL -Original Message- From: elecraft-boun...@mailman.qth.net [mailto:elecraft-boun...@mailman.qth.net] On Behalf Of Wayne Burdick Sent: Sunday, April 17, 2011 10:29 AM To: j...@audiosystemsgroup.com Cc: elecraft@mailman.qth.net Subject: Re: [Elecraft] P3 Manual Updates Our normal standard for errata sheets is *one* page, max, whenever possible. The P3 errata you mentioned is an anomaly. We're going to be integrating all errata as quickly as possible. 73, Wayne N6KR On Apr 17, 2011, at 9:21 AM, Jim Brown wrote: > On 4/17/2011 7:42 AM, Bill Henderson wrote: >> 8 pages of revision in a 27 page >> document is way too much. > > What you're complaining about is one of Elecraft's greatest strengths. > When Yaecomwood upgrades a product, it gets a new model number, and if > you already own the older one, you have to buy the new one and sell > the > old (at a loss, of course) to get the improvements. __ Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:Elecraft@mailman.qth.net This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html __ Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:Elecraft@mailman.qth.net This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html
Re: [Elecraft] P3 Manual Updates
Our normal standard for errata sheets is *one* page, max, whenever possible. The P3 errata you mentioned is an anomaly. We're going to be integrating all errata as quickly as possible. 73, Wayne N6KR On Apr 17, 2011, at 9:21 AM, Jim Brown wrote: > On 4/17/2011 7:42 AM, Bill Henderson wrote: >> 8 pages of revision in a 27 page >> document is way too much. > > What you're complaining about is one of Elecraft's greatest strengths. > When Yaecomwood upgrades a product, it gets a new model number, and if > you already own the older one, you have to buy the new one and sell > the > old (at a loss, of course) to get the improvements. __ Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:Elecraft@mailman.qth.net This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html
Re: [Elecraft] P3 Manual Updates
Hi I have been shown the instruments of torture. I recant. How about giving the option of being able to download Word versions so that the cutting an pasting can be done on my pc? I'm still recanting so there's no need to duff me up. Bill GM0VIT -- View this message in context: http://elecraft.365791.n2.nabble.com/P3-Manual-Updates-tp6281092p6281307.html Sent from the Elecraft mailing list archive at Nabble.com. __ Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:Elecraft@mailman.qth.net This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html
Re: [Elecraft] P3 Manual Updates
On 4/17/2011 7:42 AM, Bill Henderson wrote: > 8 pages of revision in a 27 page > document is way too much. What you're complaining about is one of Elecraft's greatest strengths. When Yaecomwood upgrades a product, it gets a new model number, and if you already own the older one, you have to buy the new one and sell the old (at a loss, of course) to get the improvements. Elecraft has done it very differently -- they have designed a radio that is both modular and utilizes DSP extensively in a manner that allows major upgrades simply by rewriting firmware that programs the DSP, that we download and install. Those improvements, mostly new features and more flexible use of controls, must be described in the manual operationally, hence the revisions. All that is free to users, but it certainly isn't free for Elecraft. And occasionally upgrades are made to the hardware, some of which can be purchased by owners. Like you, I consider the errata to be a huge PITA -- what is needed is a manual that is continuously updated and downloadable with all the changes integrated in a logical stream. That happens periodically with Elecraft manuals -- I downloaded a new K3 manual a year or two ago then printed out pages with significant changes and stuck them between pages in the manual that had come with the radio. I haven't taken the time to see if a new P3 manual is available, but firmware for the P3 is still evolving, with VERY useful features being added as they are suggested by users and can be implemented. 73, Jim Brown K9YC __ Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:Elecraft@mailman.qth.net This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html
Re: [Elecraft] P3 Manual Updates
Bill - If Elecraft had printed off 1000 copies of the manual, it would have been a waste of paper and the rain forest for the manuals to have been pulped and new ones printed when a couple of sheets of updates could be produced instead. OTOH, a new manual could be produced and the price of the P3 could be increased accordingly - I think not. If anyone is able to assemble a P3, surely it's not beyond their capability to make the appropriate changes to the manual. [Grumpy mode off] Enjoy your P3, Bill. 73 de David G4DMP In a recent message, Bill Henderson writes >Why on earth did it come with a manual and a list of errata that is >supposed to be cut and pasted to bring the manual up to date? Surely, it wouldn’t have been much more time consuming for you to have made the changes to the manual itself. -- + - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - + | David M Pratt, Kippax, Leeds. | | Website: http://www.g4dmp.co.uk | + - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - + __ Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:Elecraft@mailman.qth.net This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html
Re: [Elecraft] P3 Manual Updates
Cost. They keep costs down by printing in bulk and only revising when (I assume) stocks are low. I'm happy Elecraft provides a printed manual at all. Many products I buy these days either have the manual on a CD or expect me to download it. Getting a high-quality printed manual is very rare. On Sun, Apr 17, 2011 at 7:42 AM, Bill Henderson wrote: > > GRUMPY MODE ON > > Why on earth did it come with a manual and a list of errata that is supposed > to be cut and pasted to bring the manual up to date? Surely, it wouldn’t > have been much more time consuming for you to have made the changes to the > manual itself. The changes all referred to the "opperating" part of the > manual and none to the "assembly" part. 8 pages of revision in a 27 page > document is way too much. 73, Byron N6NUL - Northern California Contest Club - CU in the 2011 Cal QSO Party 1-2 Oct 2011 - www.cqp.org __ Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:Elecraft@mailman.qth.net This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html
[Elecraft] P3 Manual Updates
Hi I received my P3 on Friday. Almost before the postie managed to wrestle the cheque from my hand, I had it built. I am delighted with it. If I was having any more fun I would be arrested. GRUMPY MODE ON Why on earth did it come with a manual and a list of errata that is supposed to be cut and pasted to bring the manual up to date? Surely, it wouldn’t have been much more time consuming for you to have made the changes to the manual itself. The changes all referred to the "opperating" part of the manual and none to the "assembly" part. 8 pages of revision in a 27 page document is way too much. GRUMPY MODE OFF I still think that it's a great piece of kit. Bill GM0VIT -- View this message in context: http://elecraft.365791.n2.nabble.com/P3-Manual-Updates-tp6281092p6281092.html Sent from the Elecraft mailing list archive at Nabble.com. __ Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:Elecraft@mailman.qth.net This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html
