Re: [Elecraft] Rotten Signals

[Phil Kane]

On 4/11/2014 3:43 PM, F5vjc wrote:

> Well I believe it is better to 'close talk' most microphones in a
> typical Ham shack environment, 2 inches typically.

Not if you are shouting into it.

For PSK which I use my K2 for, there is a nice monitoring program called
PSKmeter that gives a scope-like presentation of the waveform.  It
operates in real time - in a window on the computer screen - and makes
it very easy to see if there's too much ALC or audio input.
-- --
73 de K2ASP - Phil Kane
Elecraft K2/100   s/n 5402

>From a Clearing in the Silicon Forest
Beaverton (Washington County) Oregon
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Re: [Elecraft] Rotten Signals

[Eric Swartz - WA6HHQ, Elecraft]

Folks - This thread was closed yesterday in the interest of reducing list 
overload.

Eric
elecraft.com

On 4/11/2014 2:10 PM, Phil Kane wrote:

On 4/9/2014 11:26 PM, F5vjc wrote:


This amazingly seems to be of no consequence to the majority as I very
rarely hear bad audio or CW clicks being brought to the attention of the
offending op.

Just this week I had to admonish one of our net participants who fancies
himself as an electronic expert to back off about a foot from his
microphone so that his speech would be intelligible.  His remedy was to
turn his compression down to zero.   It was a good start.


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Re: [Elecraft] Rotten Signals

[F5vjc]

Well I believe it is better to 'close talk' most microphones in a typical
Ham shack environment, 2 inches typically. Reduces background noise and
reverberation.
Most of us are not operating in a broadcast studio acoustically dead
environment.
Of course,  adjust Mic gain and Compression to suit, and please, please no
HEAVY Bass Eq it's totally wasted communications power and sounds rather
NAFF IMHO.
And, 3kHz audio BW is Plenty wide for our purposes.
Compression is good, used properly.

Expert opinions please?

73,  F5VJC


On 11 April 2014 23:10, Phil Kane  wrote:

> On 4/9/2014 11:26 PM, F5vjc wrote:
>
> > This amazingly seems to be of no consequence to the majority as I very
> > rarely hear bad audio or CW clicks being brought to the attention of the
> > offending op.
>
> Just this week I had to admonish one of our net participants who fancies
> himself as an electronic expert to back off about a foot from his
> microphone so that his speech would be intelligible.  His remedy was to
> turn his compression down to zero.   It was a good start.
> --
>
> 73 de K2ASP - Phil Kane
> Elecraft K2/100   s/n 5402
>
> From a Clearing in the Silicon Forest
> Beaverton (Washington County) Oregon
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Re: [Elecraft] Rotten Signals

[Phil Kane]

On 4/9/2014 11:26 PM, F5vjc wrote:

> This amazingly seems to be of no consequence to the majority as I very
> rarely hear bad audio or CW clicks being brought to the attention of the
> offending op.

Just this week I had to admonish one of our net participants who fancies
himself as an electronic expert to back off about a foot from his
microphone so that his speech would be intelligible.  His remedy was to
turn his compression down to zero.   It was a good start.
-- 

73 de K2ASP - Phil Kane
Elecraft K2/100   s/n 5402

>From a Clearing in the Silicon Forest
Beaverton (Washington County) Oregon
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Re: [Elecraft] Rotten Signals

[george fritkin]

What a station needs is a good, considerate operator. 
 
George, W6GF
On Thursday, April 10, 2014 7:05 AM, GRANT YOUNGMAN  wrote:
  
Part of the problem, I think, is that people have simply forgotten how to 
monitor their own signal, or never bothered to learn how.  It doesn’t matter if 
you’re using the latest DSP wizbang SSB radio or a Central Electronics 10A to 
transmit.  Listening to yourself on an IF level “audio” monitor, won’t tell you 
if you’re overdriving and flat topping in the amp.  Not likely that a P3 
monitor function — if it only displays signals from the K3 DSP — will help much 
in that regard either.  Compression and processing don’t necessarily cause a 
wide signal — but of course since the knob is there, if a little bit is good, 
then a whole lot MUST BE better .. or at least that’s clearly the view of many.

Every station needs a scope, and the only way to guarantee a clean signal (even 
if the K3 or radio du jour is generating a perfectly clean one in it’s DSP) is 
to use it properly to evaluate the RF going into the antenna, after the very 
last stage of that extra special 10KW contest amp … 

Grant NQ5T



On Apr 10, 2014, at 12:09 AM, Jim Brown  wrote:

> On 4/9/2014 6:56 PM, Milverton M. Swire wrote:
>> all the over active ALC, sprinkled with copious amount of Compression and 
>> marinated with an excessive amount of mic gain on any given contest weekend?
> 
> I put about 24 hours into WPX SSB a week or so ago, and the number of AWFUL 
> signals nearly outnumbered the number of clean ones. At least two dozen 
> times, I had to tell callers their audio was so bad that I couldn't copy 
> them. In every case, mic gain was turned up FAR, FAR too high, and so was 
> compression. There were dozens of stations calling CQ with audio so bad that 
> I couldn't copy their calls, let alone try to make an exchange.
> 
> This is PURELY a matter of STUPIDITY on the part of the operator (and perhaps 
> an unsportsmanly intent to produce splatter to keep other stations away from 
> their sidebands), and there's no excuse for it. Most modern rigs have a 
> monitor function lets the operator listen to his transmitted audio, and I'd 
> bet that many of those who sound the worst have another rig that the COULD 
> use to listen to their own RF signal.
> 
> 73, Jim K9YC

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Re: [Elecraft] Rotten Signals

[Eric Swartz WA6HHQ - Elecraft]

Time to close the thread in the interest of improving list Signal to noise 
ratio.

73,
Eric
List Moderator
elecraft.com
_..._

> On Apr 10, 2014, at 6:49 AM, GRANT YOUNGMAN  wrote:
> 
> Part of the problem, I think, is that people have simply forgotten how to 
> monitor their own signal, or never bothered to learn how.  
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Re: [Elecraft] Rotten Signals

[GRANT YOUNGMAN]

Part of the problem, I think, is that people have simply forgotten how to 
monitor their own signal, or never bothered to learn how.  It doesn’t matter if 
you’re using the latest DSP wizbang SSB radio or a Central Electronics 10A to 
transmit.  Listening to yourself on an IF level “audio” monitor, won’t tell you 
if you’re overdriving and flat topping in the amp.  Not likely that a P3 
monitor function — if it only displays signals from the K3 DSP — will help much 
in that regard either.  Compression and processing don’t necessarily cause a 
wide signal — but of course since the knob is there, if a little bit is good, 
then a whole lot MUST BE better .. or at least that’s clearly the view of many.

Every station needs a scope, and the only way to guarantee a clean signal (even 
if the K3 or radio du jour is generating a perfectly clean one in it’s DSP) is 
to use it properly to evaluate the RF going into the antenna, after the very 
last stage of that extra special 10KW contest amp … 

Grant NQ5T


On Apr 10, 2014, at 12:09 AM, Jim Brown  wrote:

> On 4/9/2014 6:56 PM, Milverton M. Swire wrote:
>> all the over active ALC, sprinkled with copious amount of Compression and 
>> marinated with an excessive amount of mic gain on any given contest weekend?
> 
> I put about 24 hours into WPX SSB a week or so ago, and the number of AWFUL 
> signals nearly outnumbered the number of clean ones. At least two dozen 
> times, I had to tell callers their audio was so bad that I couldn't copy 
> them. In every case, mic gain was turned up FAR, FAR too high, and so was 
> compression. There were dozens of stations calling CQ with audio so bad that 
> I couldn't copy their calls, let alone try to make an exchange.
> 
> This is PURELY a matter of STUPIDITY on the part of the operator (and perhaps 
> an unsportsmanly intent to produce splatter to keep other stations away from 
> their sidebands), and there's no excuse for it. Most modern rigs have a 
> monitor function lets the operator listen to his transmitted audio, and I'd 
> bet that many of those who sound the worst have another rig that the COULD 
> use to listen to their own RF signal.
> 
> 73, Jim K9YC

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Re: [Elecraft] Rotten Signals

[F5vjc]

I agree the number of 'really' terrible signals is disgraceful, and perhaps
a lot of it is due to the Contesting madness, Bigger Louder Fatter
mentality. Sometimes deliberate, I know.
However even in casual SSB operating the number of ops I hear,  especially
in Europe,  with really bad signals is incredible.
This amazingly seems to be of no consequence to the majority as I very
rarely hear bad audio or CW clicks being brought to the attention of the
offending op.

I often hear "Yes, your audio sounds great OM"... when it is clearly not !
Sadly this seems to be getting very much worse. Are we afraid to give an
honest report or just plain ignorant of what a good signal is.
Badly implemented ESSB is partly to blame I believe, ridiculously expensive
microphones and racks of audio processing gear :)

It is such a refreshing change to hear a really slick contest (or casual)
op with "great" communications audio, some guys clearly know how it's done.

Yes perhaps a TX monitor would be useful, but more education of how to
produce a good, clean effective and efficient signal would be even more so.

73, F5VJC




On 10 April 2014 07:26, W0MU Mike Fatchett  wrote:

> I like the CQ messages with a different voice that comes back to you.
>  Usually the CQ message from a certain area is really bad sounding but the
> real ops sound much better.
>
> Sadly I believe many intentionally distort their audio to make their
> signals wider.
>
> Mike W0MU
>
>
> On 4/9/2014 11:09 PM, Jim Brown wrote:
>
>> On 4/9/2014 6:56 PM, Milverton M. Swire wrote:
>>
>>> all the over active ALC, sprinkled with copious amount of Compression
>>> and marinated with an excessive amount of mic gain on any given contest
>>> weekend?
>>>
>>
>> I put about 24 hours into WPX SSB a week or so ago, and the number of
>> AWFUL signals nearly outnumbered the number of clean ones. At least two
>> dozen times, I had to tell callers their audio was so bad that I couldn't
>> copy them. In every case, mic gain was turned up FAR, FAR too high, and so
>> was compression. There were dozens of stations calling CQ with audio so bad
>> that I couldn't copy their calls, let alone try to make an exchange.
>>
>> This is PURELY a matter of STUPIDITY on the part of the operator (and
>> perhaps an unsportsmanly intent to produce splatter to keep other stations
>> away from their sidebands), and there's no excuse for it. Most modern rigs
>> have a monitor function lets the operator listen to his transmitted audio,
>> and I'd bet that many of those who sound the worst have another rig that
>> the COULD use to listen to their own RF signal.
>>
>> 73, Jim K9YC
>>
>>
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Re: [Elecraft] Rotten Signals

[W0MU Mike Fatchett]

I like the CQ messages with a different voice that comes back to you.  
Usually the CQ message from a certain area is really bad sounding but 
the real ops sound much better.


Sadly I believe many intentionally distort their audio to make their 
signals wider.


Mike W0MU

On 4/9/2014 11:09 PM, Jim Brown wrote:

On 4/9/2014 6:56 PM, Milverton M. Swire wrote:
all the over active ALC, sprinkled with copious amount of Compression 
and marinated with an excessive amount of mic gain on any given 
contest weekend?


I put about 24 hours into WPX SSB a week or so ago, and the number of 
AWFUL signals nearly outnumbered the number of clean ones. At least 
two dozen times, I had to tell callers their audio was so bad that I 
couldn't copy them. In every case, mic gain was turned up FAR, FAR too 
high, and so was compression. There were dozens of stations calling CQ 
with audio so bad that I couldn't copy their calls, let alone try to 
make an exchange.


This is PURELY a matter of STUPIDITY on the part of the operator (and 
perhaps an unsportsmanly intent to produce splatter to keep other 
stations away from their sidebands), and there's no excuse for it. 
Most modern rigs have a monitor function lets the operator listen to 
his transmitted audio, and I'd bet that many of those who sound the 
worst have another rig that the COULD use to listen to their own RF 
signal.


73, Jim K9YC


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Re: [Elecraft] Rotten Signals

[Jim Brown]

On 4/9/2014 6:56 PM, Milverton M. Swire wrote:

all the over active ALC, sprinkled with copious amount of Compression and 
marinated with an excessive amount of mic gain on any given contest weekend?


I put about 24 hours into WPX SSB a week or so ago, and the number of 
AWFUL signals nearly outnumbered the number of clean ones. At least two 
dozen times, I had to tell callers their audio was so bad that I 
couldn't copy them. In every case, mic gain was turned up FAR, FAR too 
high, and so was compression. There were dozens of stations calling CQ 
with audio so bad that I couldn't copy their calls, let alone try to 
make an exchange.


This is PURELY a matter of STUPIDITY on the part of the operator (and 
perhaps an unsportsmanly intent to produce splatter to keep other 
stations away from their sidebands), and there's no excuse for it. Most 
modern rigs have a monitor function lets the operator listen to his 
transmitted audio, and I'd bet that many of those who sound the worst 
have another rig that the COULD use to listen to their own RF signal.


73, Jim K9YC


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Re: [Elecraft] Rotten Signals

[Milverton M. Swire]

Gary, what are you going to do about all the over active ALC, sprinkled with 
copious amount of Compression and marinated with an excessive amount of mic 
gain on any given contest weekend? 
These by far out numbered the ESSBer we are so quick to mentioned! 
Just wondering?

73 Milverton. 

How good and pleasant it would be, before God and Man, to see the unification 
of all Mankind.

> On Apr 9, 2014, at 20:43, Gary Gregory  wrote:
> 
> Just hope that ESSB goes away along with Roger Beeps and after market audio
> products would help clean up a few rubbish signals on all bands...:-)
> 
> gary
> 
> 
>> On 10 April 2014 11:22,  wrote:
>> 
>>  If I had> a
>>> device that is similar in capability to the P3 to monitor my
>>> transmitted> signal that might suffice.
>> 
>> Just get rid of ESSB on 75 meters
>> 
>> Har
>> 
>> Bob
>> K3DJC
>> 
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> 
> 
> -- 
> 
> 
> 
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> 
> 
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Re: [Elecraft] Rotten Signals

[Gary Gregory]

Just hope that ESSB goes away along with Roger Beeps and after market audio
products would help clean up a few rubbish signals on all bands...:-)

gary


On 10 April 2014 11:22,  wrote:

>   If I had> a
> > device that is similar in capability to the P3 to monitor my
> > transmitted> signal that might suffice.
>
> Just get rid of ESSB on 75 meters
>
> Har
>
> Bob
> K3DJC
>
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Re: [Elecraft] Rotten Signals

[riese-k3djc]

  If I had> a 
> device that is similar in capability to the P3 to monitor my 
> transmitted> signal that might suffice. 

Just get rid of ESSB on 75 meters

Har

Bob
K3DJC

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Re: [Elecraft] Rotten Signals

[Mark Petiford]

Ok, great idea, guys.  So, Elecraft, will the recently announced PX3 have 
provisions to add this capability like the P3 does?If so, I want one!

It is less than a week old and we already want more!!! ;-)    

Mark
KE6BB

From: Gary Gregory
Sent: ‎Wed, ‎Apr‎ ‎9‎, ‎2014 at ‎04‎:‎53‎ ‎PM
To: Gary Ferdinand 
CC: elecraft 
Subject: Re: [Elecraft] Rotten Signals

Gary,The "Sensor": input on the rear of th P3 is there for 
thatpurposehowever, the device has not been announced by Elecraft to 
datedespite repeated requests.I too really do want to be able to monitor my 
TX signal, one of thedisadvantages I have is that I operate "Portable" from my 
Motorhome 24/7and as you can imagine, this constant changing of the station 
setup leadsto mistakes or oopsies when setting up..:-)I also beg Elecraft to 
listen to our pleas73GaryOn 10 April 2014 09:19, Gary Ferdinand 
 wrote:> Dear Elecraft,>> We are in critical need of a 
device that will allow us to monitor our> *actual* transmitted signal.  There 
are so many rotten signals out there> it's pathetic.   Since it would appear 
the offshore manufacturers are> clueless as to the need for clean signals, 
perhaps pressure can be put upon> them to clean up their acts by having 
increasing numbers of transmit signal> monitors in the field.  In any case
 I'd like to know that my signal is> clean.  The CWops contest last week was 
the last straw for rotten signals> for me.>> For some time I've been using my 
P3 to analyze others' signals.  If I had> a device that is similar in 
capability to the P3 to monitor my transmitted> signal that might suffice.  
Here I'm thinking CW (spurs, clicks, synth> noise...), but something that 
assists the op with transmitted SSB signals> would also be of use. Likewise 
RTTY, etc.   I don't operate enough> phone/RTTY  right now to judge whether the 
P3 is sufficient to analyze> one's transmitted SSB signal.>> How about it, 
Elecraft?  It seems the P3 has much of the needed function.>  You'd need some 
sort of coupler that was fast enough to capture high speed> signals, while not 
passing a harmful amount of signal to the "P3T">  (transmission monitor P3).  
Of course the P3T should easily handle 1500 W,> not merely 500 W, to appeal to 
a broader market.>> Thanks for
 listening (I hope).>> 73,>> Gary W2CS>>>> 
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Re: [Elecraft] Rotten Signals

[Gary Gregory]

Gary,

The "Sensor": input on the rear of th P3 is there for that
purposehowever, the device has not been announced by Elecraft to date
despite repeated requests.

I too really do want to be able to monitor my TX signal, one of the
disadvantages I have is that I operate "Portable" from my Motorhome 24/7
and as you can imagine, this constant changing of the station setup leads
to mistakes or oopsies when setting up..:-)

I also beg Elecraft to listen to our pleas

73

Gary


On 10 April 2014 09:19, Gary Ferdinand  wrote:

> Dear Elecraft,
>
> We are in critical need of a device that will allow us to monitor our
> *actual* transmitted signal.  There are so many rotten signals out there
> it's pathetic.   Since it would appear the offshore manufacturers are
> clueless as to the need for clean signals, perhaps pressure can be put upon
> them to clean up their acts by having increasing numbers of transmit signal
> monitors in the field.  In any case I'd like to know that my signal is
> clean.  The CWops contest last week was the last straw for rotten signals
> for me.
>
> For some time I've been using my P3 to analyze others' signals.  If I had
> a device that is similar in capability to the P3 to monitor my transmitted
> signal that might suffice.  Here I'm thinking CW (spurs, clicks, synth
> noise...), but something that assists the op with transmitted SSB signals
> would also be of use. Likewise RTTY, etc.   I don't operate enough
> phone/RTTY  right now to judge whether the P3 is sufficient to analyze
> one's transmitted SSB signal.
>
> How about it, Elecraft?  It seems the P3 has much of the needed function.
>  You'd need some sort of coupler that was fast enough to capture high speed
> signals, while not passing a harmful amount of signal to the "P3T"
>  (transmission monitor P3).  Of course the P3T should easily handle 1500 W,
> not merely 500 W, to appeal to a broader market.
>
> Thanks for listening (I hope).
>
> 73,
>
> Gary W2CS
>
>
>
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-- 



*Gary - VK1ZZ, K3NHLSkype: Gary.VK1ZZhttp://www.qsl.net/vk1zz
Motorhome Portable*
*"Grumpy's House"*


*Elecraft K3KPA500FTKAT500FT*
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[Elecraft] Rotten Signals

[Gary Ferdinand]

Dear Elecraft,

We are in critical need of a device that will allow us to monitor our *actual* 
transmitted signal.  There are so many rotten signals out there it’s pathetic.  
 Since it would appear the offshore manufacturers are clueless as to the need 
for clean signals, perhaps pressure can be put upon them to clean up their acts 
by having increasing numbers of transmit signal monitors in the field.  In any 
case I’d like to know that my signal is clean.  The CWops contest last week was 
the last straw for rotten signals for me.

For some time I’ve been using my P3 to analyze others’ signals.  If I had a 
device that is similar in capability to the P3 to monitor my transmitted signal 
that might suffice.  Here I’m thinking CW (spurs, clicks, synth noise…), but 
something that assists the op with transmitted SSB signals would also be of 
use. Likewise RTTY, etc.   I don’t operate enough phone/RTTY  right now to 
judge whether the P3 is sufficient to analyze one’s transmitted SSB signal.

How about it, Elecraft?  It seems the P3 has much of the needed function.  
You’d need some sort of coupler that was fast enough to capture high speed 
signals, while not passing a harmful amount of signal to the “P3T”  
(transmission monitor P3).  Of course the P3T should easily handle 1500 W, not 
merely 500 W, to appeal to a broader market.

Thanks for listening (I hope).  

73,

Gary W2CS



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