Re: [Elecraft] Data mode shows 600hz BW on P3

[Don Wilhelm]

Jim,

Why use XFIL at all?  The filter selection will follow the DSP filter 
bandwidth, switching in your filters as needed for the bandwidth 
selected by the DSP Width filter.


I never have found a use for the XFIL button on my K3, I do it all with 
the width control.


73,
Don W3FPR

On 10/6/2017 9:10 PM, Jim Shepherd wrote:

Thanks for the help--Bandwidth was showing full on the screen on the K3s,
but when I hit the XFIL a couple of times it cleared up even though I did
not change any filters.  It stayed ok for a couple of hours of making
contacts, so I hope it is cured... 73  Jim W6US


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Re: [Elecraft] Data mode shows 600hz BW on P3

[Jim Shepherd]

Thanks for the help--Bandwidth was showing full on the screen on the K3s,
but when I hit the XFIL a couple of times it cleared up even though I did
not change any filters.  It stayed ok for a couple of hours of making
contacts, so I hope it is cured... 73  Jim W6US

On Fri, Oct 6, 2017 at 3:52 PM, Don Wilhelm  wrote:

> Jim,
>
> Yes, the filter width in DATA A mode defaults to a narrow bandwidth - even
> though you have the 2.8kHz filter, it still defaults to a narrow bandwidth
> like 400 or 600 Hz (I can't recall which).
> That is an aid to those who choose to use the VFO dial to tune in a single
> data mode station.
>
> SSB mode defaults to the 2.8kHz.
>
> Not to worry, it is easy to change, just grab the WIDTH knob and turn it
> until you see a waterfall width to your liking.
>
> 73,
> Don W3FPR
>
> On 10/6/2017 6:28 PM, Jim Shepherd wrote:
>
>> When I switch to DATA mode, the receive bandwidth is only about 600 Hz
>> even
>> though when I check with Data MD it shows the USB mode. I have the 2.8
>> filter selected and it shows on the display and using the K3 Utility
>> program.
>>
>
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Re: [Elecraft] Data mode shows 600hz BW on P3

[Don Wilhelm]

Jim,

Yes, the filter width in DATA A mode defaults to a narrow bandwidth - 
even though you have the 2.8kHz filter, it still defaults to a narrow 
bandwidth like 400 or 600 Hz (I can't recall which).
That is an aid to those who choose to use the VFO dial to tune in a 
single data mode station.


SSB mode defaults to the 2.8kHz.

Not to worry, it is easy to change, just grab the WIDTH knob and turn it 
until you see a waterfall width to your liking.


73,
Don W3FPR

On 10/6/2017 6:28 PM, Jim Shepherd wrote:

When I switch to DATA mode, the receive bandwidth is only about 600 Hz even
though when I check with Data MD it shows the USB mode. I have the 2.8
filter selected and it shows on the display and using the K3 Utility
program. 

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Re: [Elecraft] Data mode and filters

[Joe Subich, W4TV]

Jim,


But Joe, you are fixating on a single specification, which is only
one part of what establishes the cleanliness of a radio. On CW and
FSK, there is the keying waveform, and on all modes there is phase
noise.


IMD is not an issue with CW or FSK (or JT65/JT9 for that matter) - they
are modes designed to work with saturated (class C) amplifiers.  IMD is
a real issue with SSB when you separate out all the other junk caused
by bad ALC, excess IF gain and excess *audio* processing.

The K3 can be 4 to 6 dB *cleaner* than it already is if the proper
approach were taken in the KPA3.  Since I don't use an amplifier, I
want the cleanest exciter power level possible and it is annoying
that given all the other attention to detail, the K3 has a dirty PA
(IMD comparable to the IC-706mkIIg on my test bench) simply to make
it compatible with a battery pack.


Six months ago, when I began doing my own measurements with a
P3/SVGA, you insisted that the IMD in a K3 would make a mess of
PSK31, so I measured PSK31 signals. They are in the set of P3
measurements I have posted here several times, and they clearly show
that you were wrong! :)


Your PSK31 measurements are clearly not believable.  Look at the
IMD values in most PSK software when the K3 is run at more than 30
to 40 watts *average* power output.  You will see the PSK IMD rise
significantly because the KPA3 is going into compression.  If you
measure at 100W *instantaneous* peaks (using an oscilloscope and
looking for 70.7 Volts peak RF across 50 Ohms), the average power
in a PSK31 signal (e.g. measured on the K3 Wattmeter or a Bird 43)
will be around 30 Watts then the IMD of the KPA3 (and the rest of
the signal chain) will be acceptable.  If you press the K3 to 100
W *average* output in PSK31 the PA will saturate, you will cause
about 4 dB of compression (peak clipping) of the PSK waveform and
PSK IMD will be around -15 dB or worse.

Non-linearities (compression) destroy BPSK and QPSK signals.


73,

  ... Joe, W4TV


On 2015-05-11 11:12 PM, Jim Brown wrote:

On Mon,5/11/2015 6:45 PM, Joe Subich, W4TV wrote:

The K3 may be cleaner than low end 12V/100W rigs like the Icom 706mkIIg
7000, 7100, Yaesu FT-450/991, etc. but it is certainly *not* as clean
as the other top of the line contest rigs like the Icom 7600/7800,
Yaesu 2000/5000, Kenwood 990, etc.  For example, ARRL measured the K3
at -29/-43/-46/-51 dB vs. -32/-49/-52/-54 dB for the Icom 7800 and
-31/-46/-54/-57 dB for the TS-990.  That makes the K3 3 to 6 dB *worse*
than other top of the line rigs at rated output.


But Joe, you are fixating on a single specification, which is only one
part of what establishes the cleanliness of a radio. On CW and FSK,
there is the keying waveform, and on all modes there is phase noise. The
K3 rise time for both modes is quite well controlled, so the keying
transients that excite IM in those other radios don't excite IM in the
K3. And phase noise in the K3, even before the new synth boards is close
to the best of any modern radio.

The occupied bandwidth measurements show the SUM of all these
mechanisms.  I've been using pink noise for SSB spectrum measurements
because the signal excites IMD in a manner similar to what a voice
would, and I've made measurements with me talking into a live mic.
There's no significant difference between the live mic and the pink noise.

The FTDX5000 report to which I posted a link shows that the K3 and
FTDX5000 have almost the same occupied bandwidth on SSB, but the K3 has
10 dB of signal processing. AND -- my K3 is even narrower because I've
cut everything below about 400 Hz with TXEQ. If you missed the link,
it's on my website.

In many contests, I've got a CQ machine 8 miles from me with a 7600 and
a legal limit amp who regularly wipes out 5-10 kHz on CW, but K6XX, only
3 miles away with a K3 and ancient tube amps is only 700 Hz wide at -50
dBC. The 7600 and 7800 tested quite similarly in bandwidth tests by ARRL.

Six months ago, when I began doing my own measurements with a P3/SVGA,
you insisted that the IMD in a K3 would make a mess of PSK31, so I
measured PSK31 signals. They are in the set of P3 measurements I have
posted here several times, and they clearly show that you were wrong!  :)

For those who missed the link, the measurements, as well as a
description of my test setup, are on my website. k9yc.com/publish.htm

73, Jim K9YC










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Re: [Elecraft] Data mode and filters

[Jim Brown]

On Mon,5/11/2015 6:45 PM, Joe Subich, W4TV wrote:

The K3 may be cleaner than low end 12V/100W rigs like the Icom 706mkIIg
7000, 7100, Yaesu FT-450/991, etc. but it is certainly *not* as clean 
as the other top of the line contest rigs like the Icom 7600/7800,

Yaesu 2000/5000, Kenwood 990, etc.  For example, ARRL measured the K3
at -29/-43/-46/-51 dB vs. -32/-49/-52/-54 dB for the Icom 7800 and
-31/-46/-54/-57 dB for the TS-990.  That makes the K3 3 to 6 dB *worse*
than other top of the line rigs at rated output.


But Joe, you are fixating on a single specification, which is only one 
part of what establishes the cleanliness of a radio. On CW and FSK, 
there is the keying waveform, and on all modes there is phase noise. The 
K3 rise time for both modes is quite well controlled, so the keying 
transients that excite IM in those other radios don't excite IM in the 
K3. And phase noise in the K3, even before the new synth boards is close 
to the best of any modern radio.


The occupied bandwidth measurements show the SUM of all these 
mechanisms.  I've been using pink noise for SSB spectrum measurements 
because the signal excites IMD in a manner similar to what a voice 
would, and I've made measurements with me talking into a live mic. 
There's no significant difference between the live mic and the pink noise.


The FTDX5000 report to which I posted a link shows that the K3 and 
FTDX5000 have almost the same occupied bandwidth on SSB, but the K3 has 
10 dB of signal processing. AND -- my K3 is even narrower because I've 
cut everything below about 400 Hz with TXEQ. If you missed the link, 
it's on my website.


In many contests, I've got a CQ machine 8 miles from me with a 7600 and 
a legal limit amp who regularly wipes out 5-10 kHz on CW, but K6XX, only 
3 miles away with a K3 and ancient tube amps is only 700 Hz wide at -50 
dBC. The 7600 and 7800 tested quite similarly in bandwidth tests by ARRL.


Six months ago, when I began doing my own measurements with a P3/SVGA, 
you insisted that the IMD in a K3 would make a mess of PSK31, so I 
measured PSK31 signals. They are in the set of P3 measurements I have 
posted here several times, and they clearly show that you were wrong!  :)


For those who missed the link, the measurements, as well as a 
description of my test setup, are on my website. k9yc.com/publish.htm


73, Jim K9YC










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Re: [Elecraft] Data mode and filters

[Fred Jensen]

OTOH, a K3 will play just fine and not incur the wrath of the BW cops 
when fired up right out of the box.  In fact, it is wise to use it 
some, become familiar with the manual and menus, and have Fred Cady's 
book open to the correct page before changing anything.  Elecraft has 
wisely omitted the menu entry to change the keying waveform found on 
some other transceivers in the upper price classes.


If I got an unsolicited email from a stranger telling me something was 
wrong with my signal, I doubt I'd panic [the FCC seems to have run out 
of pink slips several decades ago], but I'd check it out with a 
reliable friend just in case.  RF into the mic circuit can cause a whole 
lot of trouble in an otherwise pristine radio.


73,

Fred K6DGW
- Northern California Contest Club
- CU in the 50th Running of the Cal QSO Party 3-4 Oct 2015
- www.cqp.org

On 5/10/2015 11:22 AM, Matthew Pitts via Elecraft wrote:

Grant, I understand what you're saying, but there are a lot of hams
that think that the factory defaults that their particular radio
shipped with are just fine when they could be improved with
assistance, or they think that if a little adjustment is good, more
is better.

Matthew PittsN8OHU

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Re: [Elecraft] Data mode and filters

[Matthew Pitts via Elecraft]

Phil,
This is a good idea, and there are people that are willing to write, and have 
written in some cases, such tutorials; the problem is that many people don't 
see the need to make adjustments in their equipment, or they deliberately make 
bad adjustments for whatever reason, and don't want to accept the negative 
signal reports as fact.
Matthew PittsN8OHU 

  From: Phil Anderson aldenmcduf...@sunflower.com
 To: Kevin Stover kevin.sto...@mediacombb.net 
Cc: Harry Yingst via Elecraft elecraft@mailman.qth.net 
 Sent: Saturday, May 9, 2015 3:48 PM
 Subject: Re: [Elecraft] Data mode and filters
   
This thread sounds - in part - a bit like junior high batches of 
mentality. I'm not sure that this discussion line is appropriate for the 
Elecraft reflector.

Perhaps a better long term approach to more good signals on the air is 
to recruit a few knowledgeable engineers or advanced hams (tech wise) 
that could provide the theory, tutorials on how to set up and 
measure/test quality signals. Quality for some may stay in the eye of 
the beholder for some anyway.

These high quality tutorials/pieces of info, on a web page or as pdf 
files, could be made available for individuals, clubs and perhaps also 
find their way into the magazines and other publications.

I've not studied the subject in detail but would be interested in 
learning/applying best signals methods.

73, Uncle Phil, W0XI, Lawrence, KS.

PS: I love my K3, P3 and SteppIR vertical. Fun stuff. Bought the K3 kit 
in Nov of 2014. Still learning! Perhaps a book like Cady's centered on 
good signals would be helpful to those who wish to advance the hobby in 
general.




 Kevin Stover mailto:kevin.sto...@mediacombb.net
 Saturday, May 09, 2015 12:34 PM
 On Sat, 9 May 2015 14:14:41 + (UTC)
 Harry Yingst via Elecraftelecraft@mailman.qth.net  wrote:

 As for people responding They don't care some of thatcomes from far too 
 many trying to assert some imaginaryauthority over another. (like the guy 
 who drives at orbelow the speed limit in the passing lane).

 Hasn't the FCC said we are to police ourselves?

 In time they just stop caring because so many times theperson accusing them 
 of being wide etc is either abusybody ordoes not have their own gear set 
 up right.Sadly that in and of itself becomes a problem becausenow those 
 folks (who may actually have a poor signal)become closed to true 
 constructive criticism and they goon with a poor signal.

 So, because they've stopped caring were just supposed to sit on our hands or 
 go our merry way by spinning the knob?

 I know a particular federal agency who will make them care again. 
 Unfortunatley we have to do most of the evidence gathering and file an actual 
 complaint.

 The three guys/gals who actually responded saying they don't care would have 
 been first on the list. These are the people who need self policed the 
 worst.

 You wouldn't stand for that arrogant attitude from a guest in your home, I 
 hope, why put up with it on the radio?

 Any big gun contester whose already spent $$$ and has a crap signal comes 
 next. They have the technical chops and resources to fix the problem. If one 
 or more of them are wide to create some kind of guard channel then the 
 contest sponsors and the FCC need to get involved. A nice five year banning 
 from a contest would get their attention.

 Any ESSBer whose signal is wider than 3.0 KHz is next. Wanna sound like an AM 
 broadcast legen? USE AM in the correct part of the band. You'll be welcomed 
 with open arms.

 We need to demand more from the manufacturers too. Transmit IMD numbers worse 
 than -35 dB shouldn't be tollerated. I'll bet none os the 12V final rigs, 
 including the K3, could hit that mark.  I've sworn off ANY and ALL Yaesu HF 
 rigs FOREVER because of the FT-1000D/MP/Mk5 key click fiasco. When an entire 
 line of your product earns the moniker cliclmaster you shouldn't be allowed 
 to ignore it for 10 years like Yaesu did.

 The more we've ignored it or say I don't want to get involved, the worse 
 the problem gets.

 Someone else can use the soapbox now.

 Harry Yingst via Elecraft mailto:elecraft@mailman.qth.net
 Saturday, May 09, 2015 9:14 AM
 I have seen that as well (people telling others they are wide etc when 
 they are not.
 I was one night listening to some guys on ESSB with great sounding 
 signals and watching them on the P3, but another station comes up 
 tight to them and start complaining they were wiping them out etc. I 
 dialed down on to the complainers freq and I could not hear the ESSB 
 guys at all.

 As for people responding They don't care some of that comes from far 
 too many trying to assert some imaginary authority over another. (like 
 the guy who drives at or below the speed limit in the passing lane). 
 In time they just stop caring because so many times the person 
 accusing them of being wide etc is either a busybody or does not have 
 their own gear set up right. Sadly that in and of itself

Re: [Elecraft] Data mode and filters

[Joe Subich, W4TV]

On 2015-05-07 8:30 AM, Harry Yingst via Elecraft wrote:
 By that thought we should all be using 1.8 KHz Filters on TX

ITU and by extension the FCC which incorporates the particular
definitions in Part 1 of the regulations, defines communications
quality audio as 2.7KHz (300 Hz to 3 KHz).  I'm happy to leave
the definitions and regulations to them.  I'm not happy with
the lids who are passing DC to 5 KHz in busy (crowded) bands
and running that through amplifiers with high levels of IMD.

73,

  ... Joe, W4TV


On 2015-05-07 8:30 AM, Harry Yingst via Elecraft wrote:

By that thought we should all be using 1.8 KHz Filters on TX and RTTY should be 
scrapped in favor of PSK31.


I have no problem with ESSB, what I do have a problem with is those 
intentionally snuggling up close to them to cause QRM when the rest of the band 
is wide open.

As licensed Amateurs, we should realize that we share the bands with others.
Our interest may not be the same as theirs but we should have enough common 
decency as to not act in a way as to spoil the enjoyment of those we share the 
bands with.










   From: Joe Subich, W4TV li...@subich.com
  To: elecraft@mailman.qth.net
  Sent: Wednesday, May 6, 2015 1:55 PM
  Subject: Re: [Elecraft] Data mode and filters


On 2015-05-06 12:41 PM, David Cole wrote:
   But Joe...  There is an ESSB on and off control...  :)

Correct and ESSB in the K3 is a maximum of 4 KHz wide for
those who feel the need to act like children and generate
wider than normal QRM.

73,

   ... Joe, W4TV




On 2015-05-06 12:41 PM, David Cole wrote:

But Joe...  There is an ESSB on and off control...  :)

Sorry, I hate ESSB and had too..


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Re: [Elecraft] Data mode and filters

[Joe Subich, W4TV]

On 2015-05-05 11:30 PM, KV6O wrote:
 Huh.  Is there anyway around this?

No, the DSP is used for demodulation (15 KHz final IF to audio).

The 6 KHz bandwidth is generally used for AM where 6 KHz at RF
represents 3 KHz at audio (AM RF bandwidth = 2 x AF bandwidth).

The 4.2 KHz maximum HI frequency is based on the design of
the digital to analog converter and a decision that 4000 to
4500 Hz is the highest frequency required for communications
quality audio.  The K3 is not and was never deigned to be a high
fidelity receiver.

73,

  ... Joe, W4TV


On 2015-05-05 11:30 PM, KV6O wrote:

Huh.  Is there anyway around this?  I use data modes way more than AM, sure
would be nice to be able to get the 6k filter to work!  Don't need DSP for
these modes

Thanks,

Steve
KV6O



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Sent from the Elecraft mailing list archive at Nabble.com.
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Re: [Elecraft] Data Mode Sideband

[David Cole]

I brought up OFF LIST, and I did so in order to be able to see what was
going on here...  AFAIK nothing has been taken off list...  I just want
to be sure it is not, sometimes interesting discussions just stop, and I
can only guess they have moved off list, hence the request.  This is a
fascinating discussion.
-- 
Thanks and 73's,
For equipment, and software setups and reviews see:
www.nk7z.net
for MixW support see;
http://groups.yahoo.com/neo/groups/mixw/info
for Dopplergram information see:
http://groups.yahoo.com/neo/groups/dopplergram/info
for MM-SSTV see:
http://groups.yahoo.com/neo/groups/MM-SSTV/info


On Sun, 2014-08-24 at 16:12 -0700, David Cole wrote:
 Hi,
 Please DO NOT take this discussion off list...  Or if you do, please
 include me in the loop.  I find this most interesting.

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Re: [Elecraft] Data Mode Sideband

[Lynn W. Taylor, WB6UUT]

One small grumble with the list is that it is configured so that reply 
goes back to the originator, not to the list.


If we aren't careful to reply-all or reply-list, the conversation 
moves off list by accident.


On 8/25/2014 6:16 AM, David Cole wrote:

I brought up OFF LIST, and I did so in order to be able to see what was
going on here...  AFAIK nothing has been taken off list...  I just want
to be sure it is not, sometimes interesting discussions just stop, and I
can only guess they have moved off list, hence the request.  This is a
fascinating discussion.


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Re: [Elecraft] Data Mode Sideband

[Phil Wheeler]

Nice to have that choice, not available without 
more effort with some lists.


Can't please everyone, it seems.

Phil W7OX

On 8/25/14, 10:22 AM, Lynn W. Taylor, WB6UUT wrote:
One small grumble with the list is that it is 
configured so that reply goes back to the 
originator, not to the list.


If we aren't careful to reply-all or 
reply-list, the conversation moves off list by 
accident.


On 8/25/2014 6:16 AM, David Cole wrote:
I brought up OFF LIST, and I did so in order to 
be able to see what was
going on here...  AFAIK nothing has been taken 
off list...  I just want
to be sure it is not, sometimes interesting 
discussions just stop, and I
can only guess they have moved off list, hence 
the request. This is a

fascinating discussion.




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Re: [Elecraft] Data Mode Sideband

[Eric Swartz - WA6HHQ, Elecraft]

Guys - Time to end this thread. Please post issues like this to the list owner 
(me) rather than taking up ;list b/w for other readers.


73,

Eric
List Moderator
elecraft.com

On 8/25/2014 10:34 AM, Phil Wheeler wrote:

Nice to have that choice, not available without more effort with some lists.

Can't please everyone, it seems.


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Re: [Elecraft] Data Mode Sideband

[Eric Swartz - WA6HHQ, Elecraft]

Note that I am referring to the on/off list discussion under this subject, not 
the Data Mode Sideband discussion.


Eric
elecraft.com

On 8/25/2014 10:40 AM, Eric Swartz - WA6HHQ, Elecraft wrote:
Guys - Time to end this thread. Please post issues like this to the list owner 
(me) rather than taking up ;list b/w for other readers.


73,

Eric
List Moderator
elecraft.com

On 8/25/2014 10:34 AM, Phil Wheeler wrote:

Nice to have that choice, not available without more effort with some lists.

Can't please everyone, it seems.




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Re: [Elecraft] Data Mode Sideband

[David Cole]

Thank you for clarifying that Eric...  Scared me!
-- 
Thanks and 73's,
For equipment, and software setups and reviews see:
www.nk7z.net
for MixW support see;
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http://groups.yahoo.com/neo/groups/dopplergram/info
for MM-SSTV see:
http://groups.yahoo.com/neo/groups/MM-SSTV/info


On Mon, 2014-08-25 at 10:41 -0700, Eric Swartz - WA6HHQ, Elecraft wrote:
 Note that I am referring to the on/off list discussion under this subject, 
 not 
 the Data Mode Sideband discussion.
 
 Eric
 elecraft.com
 
 On 8/25/2014 10:40 AM, Eric Swartz - WA6HHQ, Elecraft wrote:
  Guys - Time to end this thread. Please post issues like this to the list 
  owner 
  (me) rather than taking up ;list b/w for other readers.
 
  73,
 
  Eric
  List Moderator
  elecraft.com
 
  On 8/25/2014 10:34 AM, Phil Wheeler wrote:
  Nice to have that choice, not available without more effort with some 
  lists.
 
  Can't please everyone, it seems.
 
 
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Re: [Elecraft] Data Mode Sideband

[Mike Harris]

Hi Don,

I've made thousands of RTTY QSOs.  I know what I'm doing.

Pondering the problem further I now believe that AFSK A and AFSK A Rev 
are similar in operation to CW and CW Rev.  Theoretically the decode 
will (should) stay correctly tuned as the suppressed carrier is 
shifted to suit.  The handbook offers no clarification on this.


Important note: I run MMTTY in Logger32 which doesn't present the MMTTY 
UI quite the same as native MMTTY.  What I attribute to MMTTY is likely 
a consequence of the way Logger32 talks to MMTTY.


The situation, which actually is of no consequence, is that MMTTY or 
whatever doesn't understand the frequency manipulations that the K3 
performs with respect to VFO display vs mode.  The K3 reported frequency 
via the IF; command is interpreted as the suppressed carrier frequency, 
which it isn't.  ALT is responded to as a sideband change, which it 
isn't in conventional terms eg switching sidebands in SSB because of 
additional frequency manipulation in the K3.


The consequences are that the RTTY frequency MMTTY displays is incorrect 
and hence any logging info produced would also be incorrect.  This could 
also be an issue with other data applications.  I don't run any others 
so that is for others to determine.


Now in my circumstance as I have said it is of no consequence.  Logger32 
correctly logs the displayed frequency from the K3 as reported by IF;. 
I simply ignore any frequency displays that this implementation of MMTTY 
presents.


The reason for trying to get a detailed handle on what was happening was 
to see if it was possible to somehow, through a radio profile or other 
means, to bring everything into line without too much effort.


Regards,

Mike VP8NO

On 23/08/2014 16:50, Don Wilhelm wrote:

Mike,

Do you have MMTTY set for 1445Hz Mark *and* the K3.  Hold PITCH button
to check/change.
That would make a difference in AFSK A, but not in DATA A mode

73,
Don W3FPR

On 8/23/2014 3:00 PM, Mike Harris wrote:

Not so sure.  I monitored the TX frequency on another RX and the only
change was the slight shift I mentioned, not what would, in my case
(1445Hz Mark) be approx 3kHz.

Using DATA A, which really does swap sideband results in a near 3k
frequency shift.

Regards,

Mike VP8NO

On 23/08/2014 15:27, Joe Subich, W4TV wrote:



Mode AFSK A normal LSB. I assumed that if by using the ALT function
and consequently switching to TX DATA REV that the sideband was
switched from LSB to USB.


It is.

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Re: [Elecraft] Data Mode Sideband

[Joe Subich, W4TV]

Mike,


Important note: I run MMTTY in Logger32 which doesn't present the
MMTTY UI quite the same as native MMTTY. What I attribute to MMTTY is
likely a consequence of the way Logger32 talks to MMTTY.


More than likely it is not MMTTY that is doing the display frequency
manipulating but the Logger32 Digital interface code.

The native MMTTY interface will correct for USB operation.  In USB one
selects REV in the display and MMTTY will correctly use MARK + Shift
for internal frequency calculations.

Last time I checked the Logger32 Display frequency from Radio option
in the Sound Card Data Window as dumb - it did not understand that the
K3 and most Yaesu radios could report Mark frequency in AFSK - and
simply added (AFSK) or subtracted (AFSK-R) MMTTY's MARK frequency from
the reported radio frequency.  This results in incorrect display for
two reasons - 1) with the K3 it is applying an offset that is already
applied in the reported frequency, 2) the offset is applied in the
wrong direction since Logger32 always assumes AFSK (audio) is USB.

Logger32 has had the same brain dead interface for the Sound Card Data
Window for perhaps 10 years.  It did not work correctly with the Yaesu
FT-1000D/MP/MKV and still does not work correctly with the K3.

None of this absolves the K3/and P3 of one mistake.  The P3 frequency
cursor (and K3 frequency display) appear to show the SPACE frequency
in AFSK R (and FSK R) - perhaps they are really reverse as opposed
to opposite sideband G.

73,

   ... Joe, W4TV


On 2014-08-24 8:49 AM, Mike Harris wrote:

Hi Don,

I've made thousands of RTTY QSOs.  I know what I'm doing.

Pondering the problem further I now believe that AFSK A and AFSK A Rev
are similar in operation to CW and CW Rev.  Theoretically the decode
will (should) stay correctly tuned as the suppressed carrier is
shifted to suit.  The handbook offers no clarification on this.

Important note: I run MMTTY in Logger32 which doesn't present the MMTTY
UI quite the same as native MMTTY.  What I attribute to MMTTY is likely
a consequence of the way Logger32 talks to MMTTY.

The situation, which actually is of no consequence, is that MMTTY or
whatever doesn't understand the frequency manipulations that the K3
performs with respect to VFO display vs mode.  The K3 reported frequency
via the IF; command is interpreted as the suppressed carrier frequency,
which it isn't.  ALT is responded to as a sideband change, which it
isn't in conventional terms eg switching sidebands in SSB because of
additional frequency manipulation in the K3.

The consequences are that the RTTY frequency MMTTY displays is incorrect
and hence any logging info produced would also be incorrect.  This could
also be an issue with other data applications.  I don't run any others
so that is for others to determine.

Now in my circumstance as I have said it is of no consequence.  Logger32
correctly logs the displayed frequency from the K3 as reported by IF;. I
simply ignore any frequency displays that this implementation of MMTTY
presents.

The reason for trying to get a detailed handle on what was happening was
to see if it was possible to somehow, through a radio profile or other
means, to bring everything into line without too much effort.

Regards,

Mike VP8NO

On 23/08/2014 16:50, Don Wilhelm wrote:

Mike,

Do you have MMTTY set for 1445Hz Mark *and* the K3.  Hold PITCH button
to check/change.
That would make a difference in AFSK A, but not in DATA A mode

73,
Don W3FPR

On 8/23/2014 3:00 PM, Mike Harris wrote:

Not so sure.  I monitored the TX frequency on another RX and the only
change was the slight shift I mentioned, not what would, in my case
(1445Hz Mark) be approx 3kHz.

Using DATA A, which really does swap sideband results in a near 3k
frequency shift.

Regards,

Mike VP8NO

On 23/08/2014 15:27, Joe Subich, W4TV wrote:



Mode AFSK A normal LSB. I assumed that if by using the ALT function
and consequently switching to TX DATA REV that the sideband was
switched from LSB to USB.


It is.

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Re: [Elecraft] Data Mode Sideband

[David Cole]

Hi,
Please DO NOT take this discussion off list...  Or if you do, please
include me in the loop.  I find this most interesting.
-- 
Thanks and 73's,
For equipment, and software setups and reviews see:
www.nk7z.net
for MixW support see;
http://groups.yahoo.com/neo/groups/mixw/info
for Dopplergram information see:
http://groups.yahoo.com/neo/groups/dopplergram/info
for MM-SSTV see:
http://groups.yahoo.com/neo/groups/MM-SSTV/info


On Sun, 2014-08-24 at 09:49 -0300, Mike Harris wrote:
 Hi Don,
 
 I've made thousands of RTTY QSOs.  I know what I'm doing.
 
 Pondering the problem further I now believe that AFSK A and AFSK A Rev 
 are similar in operation to CW and CW Rev.  Theoretically the decode 
 will (should) stay correctly tuned as the suppressed carrier is 
 shifted to suit.  The handbook offers no clarification on this.
 
 Important note: I run MMTTY in Logger32 which doesn't present the MMTTY 
 UI quite the same as native MMTTY.  What I attribute to MMTTY is likely 
 a consequence of the way Logger32 talks to MMTTY.
 
 The situation, which actually is of no consequence, is that MMTTY or 
 whatever doesn't understand the frequency manipulations that the K3 
 performs with respect to VFO display vs mode.  The K3 reported frequency 
 via the IF; command is interpreted as the suppressed carrier frequency, 
 which it isn't.  ALT is responded to as a sideband change, which it 
 isn't in conventional terms eg switching sidebands in SSB because of 
 additional frequency manipulation in the K3.
 
 The consequences are that the RTTY frequency MMTTY displays is incorrect 
 and hence any logging info produced would also be incorrect.  This could 
 also be an issue with other data applications.  I don't run any others 
 so that is for others to determine.
 
 Now in my circumstance as I have said it is of no consequence.  Logger32 
 correctly logs the displayed frequency from the K3 as reported by IF;. 
 I simply ignore any frequency displays that this implementation of MMTTY 
 presents.
 
 The reason for trying to get a detailed handle on what was happening was 
 to see if it was possible to somehow, through a radio profile or other 
 means, to bring everything into line without too much effort.
 
 Regards,
 
 Mike VP8NO
 
 On 23/08/2014 16:50, Don Wilhelm wrote:
  Mike,
 
  Do you have MMTTY set for 1445Hz Mark *and* the K3.  Hold PITCH button
  to check/change.
  That would make a difference in AFSK A, but not in DATA A mode
 
  73,
  Don W3FPR
 
  On 8/23/2014 3:00 PM, Mike Harris wrote:
  Not so sure.  I monitored the TX frequency on another RX and the only
  change was the slight shift I mentioned, not what would, in my case
  (1445Hz Mark) be approx 3kHz.
 
  Using DATA A, which really does swap sideband results in a near 3k
  frequency shift.
 
  Regards,
 
  Mike VP8NO
 
  On 23/08/2014 15:27, Joe Subich, W4TV wrote:
 
  Mode AFSK A normal LSB. I assumed that if by using the ALT function
  and consequently switching to TX DATA REV that the sideband was
  switched from LSB to USB.
 
  It is.
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Re: [Elecraft] Data Mode Sideband

[Don Wilhelm]

I have used MMTTY and find no problem, but I have not tried running 
MMTTY under Logger32, and that appears to be the problem source.


I believe Joe Subich W4TV has explained the problem scenario 
adequately.  As such, the thread should be closed and the individual 
problem areas addressed to the parties responsible for the 'strange 
happenings'.


As Joe pointed out, the K3/P3 may have a space/mark problem, but 
Logger32 has a bigger problem in not recognizing the various Data 
sub-modes in the K3 properly.


73,
Don W3FPR

On 8/24/2014 7:12 PM, David Cole wrote:

Hi,
Please DO NOT take this discussion off list...  Or if you do, please
include me in the loop.  I find this most interesting.


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Re: [Elecraft] Data Mode Sideband

[Lynn W. Taylor, WB6UUT]

On 8/24/2014 4:12 PM, David Cole wrote:

Hi,
Please DO NOT take this discussion off list...  Or if you do, please
include me in the loop.  I find this most interesting.

Please do not take this discussion (or others) off list.

When you do, when you go off list, the information is no longer shared 
with those of us reading along.

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Re: [Elecraft] Data Mode Sideband

[Joe Subich, W4TV]

There was nothing off list.

Logger32 does not properly update the frequency bar above the
Spectrum/Waterfall if the transceiver reports Mark frequency in
AFSK or FSK.  The radio frequency will be 'off' by the value of
the MARK.  This is a failing of Logger32 ...

The K3/P3 does not change the MARK tone/cursor when switching
between AFSK/AFSK R or between FSK/FSK R.  There is some debate
whether the reverse modes are meant to represent shift in the
opposite direction from normal (in other words, shift *UP* in
reverse) or the reverse modes are the opposite sideband
although amateur practice is to reverse the mark/space tones
when shifting sidebands so the shift is correct in either sideband.

73,

   ... Joe, W4TV


On 2014-08-24 11:03 PM, Lynn W. Taylor, WB6UUT wrote:

On 8/24/2014 4:12 PM, David Cole wrote:

Hi,
Please DO NOT take this discussion off list...  Or if you do, please
include me in the loop.  I find this most interesting.

Please do not take this discussion (or others) off list.

When you do, when you go off list, the information is no longer shared
with those of us reading along.
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Re: [Elecraft] Data Mode Sideband

[Lynn W. Taylor, WB6UUT]

Joe,

I don't know what, if anything, was taken off list.  I didn't mean this 
as an accusation.


I'm simply repeating a concept -- that information taken off list is 
lost to the rest of us, and I renew my plea that discussions not be 
taken off list.


73 -- Lynn

On 8/24/2014 8:31 PM, Joe Subich, W4TV wrote:
There was nothing off list. 


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Re: [Elecraft] Data Mode Sideband

[Joe Subich, W4TV]

Mode AFSK A normal LSB. I assumed that if by using the ALT function
and consequently switching to TX DATA REV that the sideband was
switched from LSB to USB.


It is.


It looks like keying is reversed but shifted in frequency on the
waterfall by one keying shift value eg 170Hz. However, whilst in data
mode selection the sideband indicator does change from LSB to USB
using ALT.


The MARK frequency in the K3 does not change - it's still 2125.  That
results in a displayed SPACE frequency.  Wayne/Lyle, you probably want
to offset MARK by Shift when in AFSK REV (and maybe FSK REV).  Remember,
MARK is always the higher RF frequency so the tones have to be exchanged
in AFSK REV and both mark/direction of the shift changed in FSK REV.

73,

   ... Joe, W4TV


On 2014-08-23 2:03 PM, Mike Harris wrote:

Guru's,

Trying to get a handle on a problem with frequency reporting in MMTTY.
Not an operational issue, I just don't take any notice of MMTTY
frequencies.  In AFSK A mode they are incorrect.

The following has become apparent, albeit undocumented.

Mode AFSK A normal LSB.  I assumed that if by using the ALT function and
consequently switching to TX DATA REV that the sideband was switched
from LSB to USB.  Apparently not the case.  It looks like keying is
reversed but shifted in frequency on the waterfall by one keying shift
value eg 170Hz.  However, whilst in data mode selection the sideband
indicator does change from LSB to USB using ALT.

Mode DATA A normal USB.  Using the ALT function does indeed swap sidebands.

Can anyone confirm or deny this observation and is this the way it is
intended to function?

Regards,

Mike VP8NO
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Re: [Elecraft] Data Mode Sideband

[Mike Harris]

Not so sure.  I monitored the TX frequency on another RX and the only 
change was the slight shift I mentioned, not what would, in my case 
(1445Hz Mark) be approx 3kHz.


Using DATA A, which really does swap sideband results in a near 3k 
frequency shift.


Regards,

Mike VP8NO

On 23/08/2014 15:27, Joe Subich, W4TV wrote:



Mode AFSK A normal LSB. I assumed that if by using the ALT function
and consequently switching to TX DATA REV that the sideband was
switched from LSB to USB.


It is.


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Re: [Elecraft] Data Mode Sideband

[Don Wilhelm]

Mike,

Do you have MMTTY set for 1445Hz Mark *and* the K3.  Hold PITCH button 
to check/change.

That would make a difference in AFSK A, but not in DATA A mode

73,
Don W3FPR

On 8/23/2014 3:00 PM, Mike Harris wrote:
Not so sure.  I monitored the TX frequency on another RX and the only 
change was the slight shift I mentioned, not what would, in my case 
(1445Hz Mark) be approx 3kHz.


Using DATA A, which really does swap sideband results in a near 3k 
frequency shift.


Regards,

Mike VP8NO

On 23/08/2014 15:27, Joe Subich, W4TV wrote:



Mode AFSK A normal LSB. I assumed that if by using the ALT function
and consequently switching to TX DATA REV that the sideband was
switched from LSB to USB.


It is.


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Re: [Elecraft] Data Mode Sideband

[Richard Ferch]

In AFSK A the K3 displays the actual Mark frequency on its dial, not the
suppressed carrier or BFO frequency as it does in DATA A.

I believe what is happening is the following (this is the same as what Joe
stated, just in different words and using a different PITCH setting): In
normal AFSK A, if the PITCH setting is 1445 Hz, the two audio tones are at
1445 Hz Mark and 1615 Hz Space. In AFSK A - REV, the K3's dial still
displays a frequency 1445 Hz different from the suppressed carrier
frequency (1445 Hz higher in USB vs. 1445 Hz lower in LSB). However, in
REV mode the tone that is 1445 Hz away from the suppressed carrier is the
Space frequency, not the Mark frequency (i.e. it is the lower of the two
frequencies, not the higher). This difference results in a 170 Hz
discrepancy between the dial frequency and the actual Mark frequency (the
higher of the two frequencies at RF).

To put it another way, the K3's dial is reporting the Space (lower)
frequency in AFSK A - REV instead of the amateur standard Mark (higher)
frequency. If the two tones in normal AFSK A are 1445 Hz Mark and 1615 Hz
Space, then in AFSK A - REV the two tones should be 1615 Hz Mark and 1445
Hz Space, and the displayed dial frequency should be 1615 Hz above the
suppressed carrier, not 1445 Hz higher.

73,
Rich VE3KI


VP8NO wrote:

Not so sure.  I monitored the TX frequency on another RX and the only
change was the slight shift I mentioned, not what would, in my case
(1445Hz Mark) be approx 3kHz.

Using DATA A, which really does swap sideband results in a near 3k
frequency shift.

Regards,

Mike VP8NO

On 23/08/2014 15:27, Joe Subich, W4TV wrote:

 Mode AFSK A normal LSB. I assumed that if by using the ALT function
 and consequently switching to TX DATA REV that the sideband was
 switched from LSB to USB.

 It is.


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Re: [Elecraft] Data Mode Sideband

[Joe Subich, W4TV]

Rich is correct.  The K3 shifts the carrier frequency between AFSK and
AFSK REV (of FSK and FSK REV) but fails to account for the the exchange
of mark/space tones.

To be rigorous, MMTTY and the K3 should probably use 1275 Hz Mark in
AFSK (lower tone = higher RF frequency) and 1445 Hz Mark in AFSK REV
(higher tone = higher RF frequency).


73,

   ... Joe, W4TV


On 2014-08-23 3:55 PM, Richard Ferch wrote:

In AFSK A the K3 displays the actual Mark frequency on its dial, not the
suppressed carrier or BFO frequency as it does in DATA A.

I believe what is happening is the following (this is the same as what Joe
stated, just in different words and using a different PITCH setting): In
normal AFSK A, if the PITCH setting is 1445 Hz, the two audio tones are at
1445 Hz Mark and 1615 Hz Space. In AFSK A - REV, the K3's dial still
displays a frequency 1445 Hz different from the suppressed carrier
frequency (1445 Hz higher in USB vs. 1445 Hz lower in LSB). However, in
REV mode the tone that is 1445 Hz away from the suppressed carrier is the
Space frequency, not the Mark frequency (i.e. it is the lower of the two
frequencies, not the higher). This difference results in a 170 Hz
discrepancy between the dial frequency and the actual Mark frequency (the
higher of the two frequencies at RF).

To put it another way, the K3's dial is reporting the Space (lower)
frequency in AFSK A - REV instead of the amateur standard Mark (higher)
frequency. If the two tones in normal AFSK A are 1445 Hz Mark and 1615 Hz
Space, then in AFSK A - REV the two tones should be 1615 Hz Mark and 1445
Hz Space, and the displayed dial frequency should be 1615 Hz above the
suppressed carrier, not 1445 Hz higher.

73,
Rich VE3KI


VP8NO wrote:

Not so sure.  I monitored the TX frequency on another RX and the only
change was the slight shift I mentioned, not what would, in my case
(1445Hz Mark) be approx 3kHz.

Using DATA A, which really does swap sideband results in a near 3k
frequency shift.

Regards,

Mike VP8NO

On 23/08/2014 15:27, Joe Subich, W4TV wrote:



Mode AFSK A normal LSB. I assumed that if by using the ALT function
and consequently switching to TX DATA REV that the sideband was
switched from LSB to USB.


It is.



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Re: [Elecraft] Data Mode

[k4ia]

Data Mode turns off the TX Equalizer and front panel mic feed.  It  also 
remembers your filter setting.  
 
Buck
k4ia 
k3 #101
 
 
 
 
In a message dated 1/10/2010 8:49:05 A.M. Eastern Standard Time,  
w4...@satterfield.org writes:


I  use an external soundcard/interface Navigator. My main use is  passing
traffic on MARS via MT-63 and MFSK-16. I just leave the radio in  USB and 
set
the mode freq via HRD DM-780. Everything works great, my  question  is
there any advantage to switching the radio to Data  Mode?

Jack
W4GRJ / AFA4DG

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Re: [Elecraft] Data Mode

[Don Wilhelm]

Jack,

The advantage to using DATA A mode is that the compression is set to 
zero and the Equalization is turned off.  If you are also using SSB and 
have compression set for SSB and/or are using equalization for normal 
(speech) SSB mode, then it will be an advantage for you to use DATA A 
instead of SSB.  If you never use a microphone with the K3, then you 
will find no difference.

73,
Don W3FPR

W4GRJ wrote:
 I use an external soundcard/interface Navigator. My main use is passing
 traffic on MARS via MT-63 and MFSK-16. I just leave the radio in USB and set
 the mode freq via HRD DM-780. Everything works great, my question  is
 there any advantage to switching the radio to Data Mode?

 Jack
 W4GRJ / AFA4DG
   

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Re: [Elecraft] Data Mode

[W4GRJ]

Thanks, the replies are a big help.
 

Don Wilhelm-4 wrote:
 
 Jack,
 
 The advantage to using DATA A mode is that the compression is set to 
 zero and the Equalization is turned off.  If you are also using SSB and 
 have compression set for SSB and/or are using equalization for normal 
 (speech) SSB mode, then it will be an advantage for you to use DATA A 
 instead of SSB.  If you never use a microphone with the K3, then you 
 will find no difference.
 
 73,
 Don W3FPR
 __
 
 

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Re: [Elecraft] Data Mode Change on Split

[Wayne Burdick]

Hi Lee,

We fixed this in the latest beta-test revision (now a production  
release).

73,
Wayne
N6KR

On Dec 1, 2009, at 7:47 PM, Lee Finkel wrote:

 Using 3.57 when I go split on RTTY and listen on B, the mode changes  
 from
 FSK-D to AFSK-A on its own.  I change it back to FSK-D and if I do not
 switch from A to B, no problem, but as soon as I do switch it goes  
 back to
 AFSK-A.

 Lee, KY7M

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Re: [Elecraft] Data Mode Change on Split

[Joe Planisky]

Fixed in 3.59.

On Dec 1, 2009, at 7:47 PM, Lee Finkel wrote:

 Using 3.57 when I go split on RTTY and listen on B, the mode changes  
 from
 FSK-D to AFSK-A on its own.  I change it back to FSK-D and if I do not
 switch from A to B, no problem, but as soon as I do switch it goes  
 back to
 AFSK-A.

 Lee, KY7M

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Re: [Elecraft] Data mode VOX persists to USB

[Wayne Burdick]

I'll fix this.

tnx
Wayne

On Oct 6, 2009, at 5:09 PM, Julian VK4CMV wrote:

 Hi - I've set up DATA mode to use VOX - and this works just fine.

 The reason I've done this is that I have a number of different sound  
 card
 based programs that use different methods for PTT - so VOX seemed to  
 be the
 easiest general solution.

 I've noticed that, when I switch MODE back to USB, the VOX setting  
 persists
 - unlike the VOX setting for CW which seems only to apply to CW.

 Is there a way of making VOX on a per mode basis for all modes ?

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Re: [Elecraft] Data Mode Split

[Greg]

Try starting with VFO A in Data FSK-D and then tap AB twice.  Seems to be 
working fine here.  What FW are you using?


73
Greg
AB7R

- Original Message - 
From: K3RWN rwnewbo...@comcast.net
To: elecraft@mailman.qth.net
Sent: Monday, September 21, 2009 7:04 PM
Subject: [Elecraft] Data Mode Split




 I maybe be doing something wrong, however I cannot get my K3 to operate 
 RTTY
 in split mode.  It will not allow me to put VFO B in the Data mode.



 SSB and CW work fine.



 Ideas?



 Rich

 K3RWN

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No virus found in this incoming message.
Checked by AVG - www.avg.com
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17:51:00

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RE: [Elecraft] Data Mode

[G4ILO]

Greg - AB7R wrote:
 
 Not yet, but having Line in automatically selected when in Data mode is on
 the list.
 
This only applies to DATA A and AFSK A though. In PSK D, the transmitter
ignores the audio input altogether. Some people may think this is stating
the obvious, but when you are switched to PSK D to see how well the DSP
decoder works compared to the PC soundcard decoder, and then decide to reply
to someone, it isn't!

-
Julian, G4ILO K2 s/n: 392  K3 s/n: 222
G4ILO's Shack: www.g4ilo.com
Zerobeat Ham Forums: www.zerobeat.net/smf
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RE: [Elecraft] Data Mode

[Greg - AB7R]

Correct...it is for the audio data modes.  Please keep in mind that PSK-D is 
not 
yet functional, so you will still need to use an external software application 
and 
Data-A mode.

-
73,
Greg - AB7R
Whidbey Island WA
NA-065
K3#0009

On Fri Jan 18  2:13 , G4ILO  sent:



Greg - AB7R wrote:
 
 Not yet, but having Line in automatically selected when in Data mode is on
 the list.
 
This only applies to DATA A and AFSK A though. In PSK D, the transmitter
ignores the audio input altogether. Some people may think this is stating
the obvious, but when you are switched to PSK D to see how well the DSP
decoder works compared to the PC soundcard decoder, and then decide to reply
to someone, it isn't!

-
Julian, G4ILO K2 s/n: 392  K3 s/n: 222
G4ILO's Shack: www.g4ilo.com
Zerobeat Ham Forums: www.zerobeat.net/smf
-- 
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tp14946557p14948060.html
Sent from the Elecraft mailing list archive at Nabble.com.

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RE: [Elecraft] Data Mode

[Greg]

Not yet, but having Line in automatically selected when in Data mode is on
the list.

For now you need to select it using the MIC SEL in Menu.

73
Greg
AB7R


-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
[mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Behalf Of AD9P
Sent: Thursday, January 17, 2008 8:47 PM
To: elecraft@mailman.qth.net
Subject: [Elecraft] Data Mode



I have a few questions

While in the Data Mode (PSK), is the mic input disabled?

Also when one changes opertaing modes such as LSB, to Data is the audio
input changed from the front mic plug to the rear data in?  In other words
does the input follow the mode?

Thanks
AL
AD9P

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