Re: [Elecraft] 43 Ft Vertical and Elecraft Tuners
I have modeled this too on my old K6sti software ... need to get a windows replacement. Make that a horizontal 20 DEZ (86') and not only is that antenna lots of fun on 20 but it is lots of fun on 10 with a very nice cloverleaf pattern (can't remember the gain). -- From: Ron D'Eau Claire r...@cobi.biz Sent: Tuesday, September 03, 2013 5:28 PM To: 'Reflector Elecraft' elecraft@mailman.qth.net Subject: Re: [Elecraft] 43 Ft Vertical and Elecraft Tuners An interesting point I noticed modeling a 43 foot vertical was that, while on 10 meters the main lobe is up around 50 degrees, the gain at low angles is similar to a 1/4 wave ground plane antenna cut for 10 meters. That's because the longer antenna has significant gain over a 1/4 wave antenna so the amount of radiation down at the lower angles is about the same as a 1/4 wave. That's for a ground mounted 1/4 wave on 10 meters. Ideally you want to raise the 10 meter vertical at least 1/2 wavelength - roughly 16 feet - then you get much better low angle radiation from the 1/4 wave because the ground absorbs much less of the lowest angle radiation. Installed that way, the 1/4 wave shines over the 43 footer. Also, of course, there is less interference with the signal by foliage, buildings, etc. That's why so-called vertical ground plane antennas are so popular on the higher HF bands. 73, Ron AC7AC __ Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:Elecraft@mailman.qth.net This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html __ Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:Elecraft@mailman.qth.net This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html
Re: [Elecraft] 43 Ft Vertical and Elecraft Tuners
Definitely a loaded question. No pun intended. I don't have any experience with 43 ft verticals myself but have heard a lot about them and have been thinking about building one. I too would like to learn more. Matt Moller KG6KSL K3 #3496 On 9/2/2013 4:10 PM, Jim Brown wrote: 43 ft verticals have become a popular antenna, and while they have some strong points, they present a very high SWR on most bands, so they require a serious tuner to get them to load. I'd like to know of any stations using a 43 Ft vertical as a multi-band antenna using nothing but an Elecraft antenna tuner for matching -- that is, no baluns, transformers, loading coils, or additional matching networks. I'd like to know the bands on which you are able to match it well enough to get full power from the rig (or the power amp). I'd like to know if the tuner is located at the base of the antenna, or, if in the shack, the length of feedline between antenna and tuner. Thanks and 73, Jim K9YC __ Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:Elecraft@mailman.qth.net This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html __ Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:Elecraft@mailman.qth.net This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html
Re: [Elecraft] 43 Ft Vertical and Elecraft Tuners
most people I have heard running a 23 or 32 ot 43 foot vertical all use a 4:1 and a 1:1 inline... I hvae also been reading articals where a 5.1 rf coil is used. -- R.Neese KB3VGW __ Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:Elecraft@mailman.qth.net This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html
Re: [Elecraft] 43 Ft Vertical and Elecraft Tuners
Dave WX7G wrote an article that may be of interest: www.eham.net/articles/21272 I also have some info in the “Presentations” section of my website at www.ad5x.com. As Jim says, if you use good quality coax over reasonable distances (I use 1/2” heliax over a 60-ft run), SWR-related losses are reasonable on 60-10 meters. Above 20 meters the radiation angle increases. However, since the antenna is electrically longer the radiation resistance increases which makes ground losses less significant. Lots of trade-offs to consider. Matching at the antenna base is important on 160- and 80-meters as the SWR is VERY high on those bands. Also, most autotuners cannot match the 43-foot vertical at the base on 160-meters so additional external inductance is needed on this band (see the Autotuner Extender in the “Articles” section of my website. I prefer the convenience of the autotuner in the shack, especially if you use an amplifier. A remote tuner can’t easily take your amp off-line during tuning or if a high SWR suddenly occurs. So I use a fixed base match for 160/80 meters, and the standard 4:1 unun on 60-10 meters (all switchable from the shack). My KAT500 in the shack handles all the bandwidth extensions I need on all bands. Phil – AD5X __ Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:Elecraft@mailman.qth.net This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html
Re: [Elecraft] 43 Ft Vertical and Elecraft Tuners
On 09/03/2013 06:29 AM, Phil Debbie Salas wrote: I also have some info in the “Presentations” section of my website at www.ad5x.com. Phil's The 43-Foot Vertical presentation is very well written and contains a wealth of good information. Phil references a 10 Ohm ground. Using the information in: http://www.kn5l.net/GroundRadialStudy/ which summarizes three published ground radial analysis reports. Using the combined data from the three reports: A 160 meter radial system requires 24 80 foot radials for a 9 ohm ground. A 40 meter, and higher frequency, radial system requires 60 56 foot radials for an 8 Ohm ground. Both assuming an average ground. John KN5L __ Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:Elecraft@mailman.qth.net This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html
Re: [Elecraft] 43 Ft Vertical and Elecraft Tuners
On 9/2/2013 11:18 PM, Matt Moller wrote: I don't have any experience with 43 ft verticals myself but have heard a lot about them and have been thinking about building one. I too would like to learn more. The reason for my post asking for experience with this antenna and the Elecraft tuner is that I'm putting together a presentation on 43-ft verticals for Pacificon next month. So far, I've done a lot of modeling to understand how a 43-ft vertical behaves on all ham bands, both when ground-mounted and on the roof of a typical home (with two radials for each band 40-10M). A few years ago, AD5X did some excellent work on matching a 43-ft vertical, with engineering that can best be described as heroic, and shared it in an fine Power Point that he's done for ham clubs, and that is on the internet. He's given me permission to include parts of it in my Pacificon talk. That talk is scheduled for Saturday morning. The day before, as part of the Antenna Forum, I'm showing a rather extensive study with the title, If I Could Put My Multi-Band HF Vertical On My Roof, Should I? Except for the 43-ft vertical, nearly all commercial multi-band verticals are resonant on the bands they cover, and are either monopoles with radials (a classic ground plane), or vertical dipoles without radials. Various designs use anything from traps to a combination of traps, stubs, and matching sections to resonate the antenna and present a 50 ohm load. . Both Power Points will be on my website after Pacificon. As to radials -- some of the best work I've seen is by Rudy Severns, N6LF, who has done both extensive modeling and significant experimental work to confirm the models. His work is quite thoughtful, and presented in a manner that is quite readable (but not light reading). As to assigning resistance values to a given number and length of radials -- I've seen several published studies, some in the ARRL Handbook and Antenna Book, that come up with quite conflicting numbers. I suspect that the primary cause of the conflicting results is the nature of the soil underneath the radial system. At Pacificon last year I did a talk about getting on 160M from a residential lot, which is mostly about antennas, radial systems, and counterpoises. In it, I collected much of the better work I've seen about radial systems. The Power Point is on my website. http://k9yc.com/publish.htm Based on my modeling, and upon an excellent set of measurements by N0AX and K7LXC of a dozen commercial verticals, if I had limited space and could not rig horizontal dipoles for the bands I wanted to work, I would use one of those commercial multi-band antennas configured as a vertical dipole, and I would put it on my roof. 73, Jim K9YC __ Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:Elecraft@mailman.qth.net This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html
Re: [Elecraft] 43 Ft Vertical and Elecraft Tuners
Hi Jim, I use exactly that here in Tampa. My antenna is a stealth 43' of green 18 gauge wire up a tree and 43' of the same horizontal hidden in the bushes. I am in an apartment. The feed point is about 10' above ground. I feed it with open wire line from a 4:1 balun on the back of my K3 with the internal tuner. I am guessing the feed line is about 25'. It matches on 80-6 ... sometimes ... excessive rain causes a HIGH CURRENT on the radio and I just back down the power until it goes off. I did tinker with different lengths of coax between the balun and the radio ... 10 feet of RG58 and the best SWR on 20 was 2:1 and 6 meters would have nothing to do with it. I have not experimented with the length of the open wire line ... the set up seems to work fine as I currently have it. 43' is a popular height because it is 5/8 on 20 and can provide 3db gain. For me the antenna works very well on 40, 30, 20 and 17. It is very poor on 80 and the angle of radiation is a bit high on 15-10. I have worked locals on 6 (use a 6 m delta loop in attic the rest of the time). On 160 the tuner would have nothing to do with it. BUT on 160 during the Stew Perry I did add a base loading coil and hid 1/4 radial in the bushes and worked up and down the East coast plus VEs and Carribian. My current goal is DXCC on RTTY and only confirmed on LOTW. With this set-up and I am up to 65 countries with only 100 watts. Hope this helps. 73, Mike WA5POK/4 Tampa -- From: Jim Brown j...@audiosystemsgroup.com Sent: Monday, September 02, 2013 7:10 PM To: Reflector Elecraft elecraft@mailman.qth.net Subject: [Elecraft] 43 Ft Vertical and Elecraft Tuners 43 ft verticals have become a popular antenna, and while they have some strong points, they present a very high SWR on most bands, so they require a serious tuner to get them to load. I'd like to know of any stations using a 43 Ft vertical as a multi-band antenna using nothing but an Elecraft antenna tuner for matching -- that is, no baluns, transformers, loading coils, or additional matching networks. I'd like to know the bands on which you are able to match it well enough to get full power from the rig (or the power amp). I'd like to know if the tuner is located at the base of the antenna, or, if in the shack, the length of feedline between antenna and tuner. Thanks and 73, Jim K9YC __ Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:Elecraft@mailman.qth.net This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html __ Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:Elecraft@mailman.qth.net This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html
Re: [Elecraft] 43 Ft Vertical and Elecraft Tuners
Thanks Mike. Your observations about radiation angle and performance are in good agreement with my modeling. Yes, the secret sauce is that 43 ft is 5/8 on 20M. 73, Jim K9YC On 9/3/2013 11:17 AM, mikefur...@att.net wrote: Hi Jim, I use exactly that here in Tampa. My antenna is a stealth 43' of green 18 gauge wire up a tree and 43' of the same horizontal hidden in the bushes. I am in an apartment. The feed point is about 10' above ground. I feed it with open wire line from a 4:1 balun on the back of my K3 with the internal tuner. I am guessing the feed line is about 25'. It matches on 80-6 ... sometimes ... excessive rain causes a HIGH CURRENT on the radio and I just back down the power until it goes off. I did tinker with different lengths of coax between the balun and the radio ... 10 feet of RG58 and the best SWR on 20 was 2:1 and 6 meters would have nothing to do with it. I have not experimented with the length of the open wire line ... the set up seems to work fine as I currently have it. 43' is a popular height because it is 5/8 on 20 and can provide 3db gain. For me the antenna works very well on 40, 30, 20 and 17. It is very poor on 80 and the angle of radiation is a bit high on 15-10. I have worked locals on 6 (use a 6 m delta loop in attic the rest of the time). On 160 the tuner would have nothing to do with it. BUT on 160 during the Stew Perry I did add a base loading coil and hid 1/4 radial in the bushes and worked up and down the East coast plus VEs and Carribian. My current goal is DXCC on RTTY and only confirmed on LOTW. With this set-up and I am up to 65 countries with only 100 watts. Hope this helps. 73, Mike WA5POK/4 Tampa __ Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:Elecraft@mailman.qth.net This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html
Re: [Elecraft] 43 Ft Vertical and Elecraft Tuners
An interesting point I noticed modeling a 43 foot vertical was that, while on 10 meters the main lobe is up around 50 degrees, the gain at low angles is similar to a 1/4 wave ground plane antenna cut for 10 meters. That's because the longer antenna has significant gain over a 1/4 wave antenna so the amount of radiation down at the lower angles is about the same as a 1/4 wave. That's for a ground mounted 1/4 wave on 10 meters. Ideally you want to raise the 10 meter vertical at least 1/2 wavelength - roughly 16 feet - then you get much better low angle radiation from the 1/4 wave because the ground absorbs much less of the lowest angle radiation. Installed that way, the 1/4 wave shines over the 43 footer. Also, of course, there is less interference with the signal by foliage, buildings, etc. That's why so-called vertical ground plane antennas are so popular on the higher HF bands. 73, Ron AC7AC __ Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:Elecraft@mailman.qth.net This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html
Re: [Elecraft] 43 Ft Vertical and Elecraft Tuners
YES! You've hit the nail beautifully on the head, Ron. I just finished preparing slides comparing a 43 ft ground-mounted vertical with a good radial system on 20M, 15M, and 10M with a classic ground plane at 30 ft and vertical dipole with a base at 30 ft for those bands.Looking at performance below about 15 degrees elevation, the three antennas are roughly equal at the low angles on 20M, but both the ground planes and the vertical dipole blow the 43 ft vertical away on 15M and 10M (the difference ranges between 6-8 dB, depending on ground conductivity). The practical problem with sticking a ground plane on your roof is that it needs at least two radials per band, but there are several multiband antennas for those bands configured as vertical dipoles that work well without radials. That's the basis of my earlier statement that a roof-mounted well-designed multi-band vertical dipole is a far better antenna above 20M than the 43 ft vertical. 73, Jim K9YC On 9/3/2013 2:28 PM, Ron D'Eau Claire wrote: An interesting point I noticed modeling a 43 foot vertical was that, while on 10 meters the main lobe is up around 50 degrees, the gain at low angles is similar to a 1/4 wave ground plane antenna cut for 10 meters. That's because the longer antenna has significant gain over a 1/4 wave antenna so the amount of radiation down at the lower angles is about the same as a 1/4 wave. That's for a ground mounted 1/4 wave on 10 meters. Ideally you want to raise the 10 meter vertical at least 1/2 wavelength - roughly 16 feet - then you get much better low angle radiation from the 1/4 wave because the ground absorbs much less of the lowest angle radiation. Installed that way, the 1/4 wave shines over the 43 footer. Also, of course, there is less interference with the signal by foliage, buildings, etc. __ Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:Elecraft@mailman.qth.net This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html
Re: [Elecraft] 43 Ft Vertical and Elecraft Tuners
This has been an excellent discussion on the 43 foot vertical. I have one installed in my back yard (DX Engineering). Very happy with it overall. It's been an excellent performer on 20 meters, and good on other bands; I'm a casual DX-er, but have worked 5 continents SSB with the 12 watt output of my barefoot K3. Phil Salas had an excellent article in QST a year or so ago describing how to install switchable loading coils at the foot of the antenna, to mitigate low-band problems. I match my 43 footer with a home-brew tuner -- a fully switch-configurable L-tuner that has a 27 µH variable inductor, 600 pFd of air variable capacitance, and two additional 600 pFd fixed caps that can be switched in parallel with the variables to provide up to 1800 pFd capacitance. With this tuner, I can get a match across the full spectrum of all bands except 160 meters, where I can get below 2:1 only in the top 200 khz (without Phil's loading coils). I recognize, of course, that the line losses are severe on the low bands, even with a run of only 60 feet of 9913 Belden coax. (A more detailed description of this tuner project is available at http://n6lew.us, if anyone's interested.) For the high bands, I already have both a home brew 6 meter j-pole and a three-element quad. I'm currently working on construction of a 17-15-12-10 meter hexbeam, to overcome the high radiation angle of the vertical on the higher bands. (Although most published hexbeam designs also in include 20 meters, I'm omitting that band from my project to reduce antenna size for visibility reasons, and because the vertical performs quite well on 20, as noted. Overall, I'd say that the 43 foot vertical pairs up well with the K3, although I can't speak to the ability of the Elecraft auto-tuner to match the load on all bands. The simple L-tuner does so quite nicely. Lew Phelps N6LEW Pasadena, CA DM04wd Elecraft K3-10 Yaesu FT-7800 l...@n6lew.us www.n6lew.us On Sep 3, 2013, at 5:23 PM, Jim Brown j...@audiosystemsgroup.com wrote: YES! You've hit the nail beautifully on the head, Ron. I just finished preparing slides comparing a 43 ft ground-mounted vertical with a good radial system on 20M, 15M, and 10M with a classic ground plane at 30 ft and vertical dipole with a base at 30 ft for those bands.Looking at performance below about 15 degrees elevation, the three antennas are roughly equal at the low angles on 20M, but both the ground planes and the vertical dipole blow the 43 ft vertical away on 15M and 10M (the difference ranges between 6-8 dB, depending on ground conductivity). The practical problem with sticking a ground plane on your roof is that it needs at least two radials per band, but there are several multiband antennas for those bands configured as vertical dipoles that work well without radials. That's the basis of my earlier statement that a roof-mounted well-designed multi-band vertical dipole is a far better antenna above 20M than the 43 ft vertical. 73, Jim K9YC On 9/3/2013 2:28 PM, Ron D'Eau Claire wrote: An interesting point I noticed modeling a 43 foot vertical was that, while on 10 meters the main lobe is up around 50 degrees, the gain at low angles is similar to a 1/4 wave ground plane antenna cut for 10 meters. That's because the longer antenna has significant gain over a 1/4 wave antenna so the amount of radiation down at the lower angles is about the same as a 1/4 wave. That's for a ground mounted 1/4 wave on 10 meters. Ideally you want to raise the 10 meter vertical at least 1/2 wavelength - roughly 16 feet - then you get much better low angle radiation from the 1/4 wave because the ground absorbs much less of the lowest angle radiation. Installed that way, the 1/4 wave shines over the 43 footer. Also, of course, there is less interference with the signal by foliage, buildings, etc. __ Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:Elecraft@mailman.qth.net This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html __ Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:Elecraft@mailman.qth.net This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html
Re: [Elecraft] 43 Ft Vertical and Elecraft Tuners
On 9/3/2013 5:23 PM, Jim Brown wrote: The practical problem with sticking a ground plane on your roof is that it needs at least two radials per band, but there are several multiband antennas for those bands configured as vertical dipoles that work well without radials. That's the basis of my earlier statement that a roof-mounted well-designed multi-band vertical dipole is a far better antenna above 20M than the 43 ft vertical. I bought a GAP Titan, mainly for WARC bands, my low-band ladder-line fed sloping vee [135' on a side] gets really complicated above 40m. I've observed: The GAP is about 1-2 S-units noisier. Not surprising, it's a vertical. It works on the WARC bands, satisfying my need, I've never used it on the contest bands. I think it's a center-fed half-wave vertical dipole. It does have a square wire loop thingy near the bottom that seems to deal with 40m, pretty big. No radials, but with the big square loop, it might as well have them. I'm fairly convinced the shield of the coax plays a part on at least a couple of bands, maybe all. They warn you to route the coax out a hole in the side of the support mast, not out the bottom. I installed it on a 3 riser pipe that goes straight up inside the wall from a 2' square utility box in the wall under my radio desk. It has a standard weatherhead on the top and carries the coax to the tower on a steel messenger. This was a misteak. With the KPA500 at 500W, on 40m, I get a lot of RF from the GAP screwing up things like the WinKey, the laptop, and various other digital gadgets. Fortunately I don't use it on 40m. It's directly over my head, I probably could have considered that but of course didn't. On 160, my sloping Vee also keys several of the irrigation control valves ... they're not exactly up to QRQ and the pipes bang really bad. I've modeled the 43' vertical, both on the ground and in the air. I've tried one, on the ground with a not-too-shabby radial system. It appears to me that it is: A vertical 43' seems to garner some friendlier feed impedances on some bands than some other lengths, and it's physically manageable in restricted spaces, HOA or otherwise It's a vertical 73, Fred K6DGW - Northern California Contest Club - CU in the 2013 Cal QSO Party 5-6 Oct 2013 - www.cqp.org __ Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:Elecraft@mailman.qth.net This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html
Re: [Elecraft] 43 Ft Vertical and Elecraft Tuners
On 9/3/2013 7:30 PM, Fred Jensen wrote: With the KPA500 at 500W, on 40m, I get a lot of RF from the GAP screwing up things like the WinKey, the laptop, and various other digital gadgets. The first thing I would do is put a serious ferrite choke on the coax at the antenna. If that doesn't fix it, I'd say it's radiation from the antenna itself. 73, Jim __ Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:Elecraft@mailman.qth.net This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html
Re: [Elecraft] 43 Ft Vertical and Elecraft Tuners
Remember the old Hy-Gain Hy-Tower ? It had tuning stubs brought out from various places in order to provide resonance on 10, 15 20 M, maybe even one for 40M. I have a manual around here but am too lazy to go find it. Anyway, I believe it was 57 feet overall and was rated for 80 - 10 M. You could add a base loading coil and an additional length of wire off the top mast for 160M. With an adequate radial system, they were the cat's meow of verticals back then. I always wondered how the connection points for those resonators was determined. Probably to limit interaction with other bands (??) Maybe some sort of similar set-up could be done with parallel wire stubs. I remember trying to tune a four pair parallel wire dipole for 20, 17 , 15 and 10 M. What a bear. Tweak one band and it would screw up the others. I finally got it tuned, but had to completely replace all the wires since I had chopped and re-soldered all of them so many times. I used ½ PVC pipe spreaders which kept the four wires about 2 from each other. Once up, it would have been impossible to re-deploy due to tangles. 73, Charlie k3ICH - Original Message - From: Jim Brown j...@audiosystemsgroup.com To: elecraft@mailman.qth.net Sent: Tuesday, September 03, 2013 11:03 PM Subject: Re: [Elecraft] 43 Ft Vertical and Elecraft Tuners On 9/3/2013 7:30 PM, Fred Jensen wrote: With the KPA500 at 500W, on 40m, I get a lot of RF from the GAP screwing up things like the WinKey, the laptop, and various other digital gadgets. The first thing I would do is put a serious ferrite choke on the coax at the antenna. If that doesn't fix it, I'd say it's radiation from the antenna itself. 73, Jim __ Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:Elecraft@mailman.qth.net This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html __ Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:Elecraft@mailman.qth.net This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html
Re: [Elecraft] 43 Ft Vertical and Elecraft Tuners
I had a HyTower in the late 60's. It worked well for me for several years in two locations. Istill haven't figured out how it worked exactly. I would sure like to hear an explanation of what those stubs actually did and how they were determined. Somebody must have written an analysis, but I have yet to find one. Eric KE6US On 9/3/2013 8:35 PM, Charlie T, K3ICH wrote: Remember the old Hy-Gain Hy-Tower ? It had tuning stubs brought out from various places in order to provide resonance on 10, 15 20 M, maybe even one for 40M. I have a manual around here but am too lazy to go find it. Anyway, I believe it was 57 feet overall and was rated for 80 - 10 M. You could add a base loading coil and an additional length of wire off the top mast for 160M. With an adequate radial system, they were the cat's meow of verticals back then. I always wondered how the connection points for those resonators was determined. Probably to limit interaction with other bands (??) Maybe some sort of similar set-up could be done with parallel wire stubs. I remember trying to tune a four pair parallel wire dipole for 20, 17 , 15 and 10 M. What a bear. Tweak one band and it would screw up the others. I finally got it tuned, but had to completely replace all the wires since I had chopped and re-soldered all of them so many times. I used ½ PVC pipe spreaders which kept the four wires about 2 from each other. Once up, it would have been impossible to re-deploy due to tangles. 73, Charlie k3ICH - Original Message - From: Jim Brown j...@audiosystemsgroup.com To: elecraft@mailman.qth.net Sent: Tuesday, September 03, 2013 11:03 PM Subject: Re: [Elecraft] 43 Ft Vertical and Elecraft Tuners On 9/3/2013 7:30 PM, Fred Jensen wrote: With the KPA500 at 500W, on 40m, I get a lot of RF from the GAP screwing up things like the WinKey, the laptop, and various other digital gadgets. The first thing I would do is put a serious ferrite choke on the coax at the antenna. If that doesn't fix it, I'd say it's radiation from the antenna itself. 73, Jim __ Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:Elecraft@mailman.qth.net This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html __ Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:Elecraft@mailman.qth.net This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html __ Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:Elecraft@mailman.qth.net This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html
Re: [Elecraft] 43 Ft Vertical and Elecraft Tuners
I use paralleled dipoles here, and I have limited the number of bands on a single feedline to 3 bands, so I have one for 20, 15, and 10 meters, and another for 30, 17, and 12. The wires are spaced about 1 foot apart with PVC spreaders. Tuning them is a bit of a challenge, but if one tunes the lowest band first, and then progresses to the next higher band, it can be done. Do not try to mix 3rd harmonic bands such as 40 meters and 15 meters, or 80 meters and 30 meters. I do have a 3rd dual band for 80 and 40, but the radiators are arranged at right angles to each other so there is little interactions between those 2 bands. 73, Don W3FPR On 9/3/2013 11:35 PM, Charlie T, K3ICH wrote: I remember trying to tune a four pair parallel wire dipole for 20, 17 , 15 and 10 M. What a bear. Tweak one band and it would screw up the others. I finally got it tuned, but had to completely replace all the wires since I had chopped and re-soldered all of them so many times. I used ½ PVC pipe spreaders which kept the four wires about 2 from each other. Once up, it would have been impossible to re-deploy due to tangles. __ Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:Elecraft@mailman.qth.net This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html
Re: [Elecraft] 43 Ft Vertical and Elecraft Tuners
On 9/3/2013 9:16 PM, Don Wilhelm wrote: I use paralleled dipoles here, and I have limited the number of bands on a single feedline to 3 bands, so I have one for 20, 15, and 10 meters, and another for 30, 17, and 12. The wires are spaced about 1 foot apart with PVC spreaders. I like fan dipoles a lot, and quickly came to all of the same conclusions you did. One thing I learned from modeling is that the lowest frequency band has the same SWR bandwidth of a single dipole, but the dipoles for higher frequencies have roughly half the SWR bandwidth. 73, Jim K9YC __ Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:Elecraft@mailman.qth.net This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html
Re: [Elecraft] 43 Ft Vertical and Elecraft Tuners
Good question... I would like to know too. A wise man once said nothing On Sep 2, 2013, at 5:10 PM, Jim Brown j...@audiosystemsgroup.com wrote: 43 ft verticals have become a popular antenna, and while they have some strong points, they present a very high SWR on most bands, so they require a serious tuner to get them to load. I'd like to know of any stations using a 43 Ft vertical as a multi-band antenna using nothing but an Elecraft antenna tuner for matching -- that is, no baluns, transformers, loading coils, or additional matching networks. I'd like to know the bands on which you are able to match it well enough to get full power from the rig (or the power amp). I'd like to know if the tuner is located at the base of the antenna, or, if in the shack, the length of feedline between antenna and tuner. Thanks and 73, Jim K9YC __ Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:Elecraft@mailman.qth.net This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html __ Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:Elecraft@mailman.qth.net This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html
Re: [Elecraft] 43 Ft Vertical and Elecraft Tuners
I know this isn't an answer to the basic premise of the raised question, but let me throw this out. 1. 43 ft. verticals that are ground mounted require a large, good ground system. 2. Depending on the band you are operating, the assumption of a high VSWR is correct. 3. High VSWRs on coax are a losing proposition. I use an 18' elevated vertical with an elevated radial system and a tuner at the base of the vertical. The reasons I do this are: 1. Elevated radial systems need not be as extensive as ground based radial systems; I have 4 radials, two 9 footers and two 19 footers. 2. 18 ft. is as high as I could get and still have my radial system close to where I wanted it; the tree was too low. 3. A tuner at the base of the vertical allows me to run coax all the way with an VSWR less than 1.5:1 on all bands. The question now is how does it play or compare. The answer is I don't have an absolute answer, but from what I see using WSPR at 1.5 Watts, it seems to play well. I only have only had the system up a few weeks and don't yet have enough experience with it to be more definitive. My gut tells me that this is a better overall system than expensive, commercial verticals. Almost everything is available from Home Depot except the tuner and a few insulators. I hope this has triggered some curiosity. 73, Barry K3NDM On 9/2/2013 7:10 PM, Jim Brown wrote: 43 ft verticals have become a popular antenna, and while they have some strong points, they present a very high SWR on most bands, so they require a serious tuner to get them to load. I'd like to know of any stations using a 43 Ft vertical as a multi-band antenna using nothing but an Elecraft antenna tuner for matching -- that is, no baluns, transformers, loading coils, or additional matching networks. I'd like to know the bands on which you are able to match it well enough to get full power from the rig (or the power amp). I'd like to know if the tuner is located at the base of the antenna, or, if in the shack, the length of feedline between antenna and tuner. Thanks and 73, Jim K9YC __ Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:Elecraft@mailman.qth.net This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html __ Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:Elecraft@mailman.qth.net This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html
Re: [Elecraft] 43 Ft Vertical and Elecraft Tuners
One can feed the 43 foot vertical with ladder line, and do the tuning in the shack (yes, you can feed a vertical with balanced line), but if feeding with coax, the best place for the matching network is at the base of the antenna. Coax is good for an swr of 2.0 or less (depending on the frequency). If the SWR is greater than that, some kind of matching device at the base of the antenna is in order. Ladder line feed OTOH is quite OK with an SWR of 20:1 if it is properly routed - away from conducting surfaces by at least 3 times its spacing and similarly away from the earth. Again, yes, balanced feedline is an alternative for vertical antennas - the antenna may be *unbalanced*, but the feedline does not care, You still need balanced current and return current for the antenna to functon correctly. 73, Don W3FPR On 9/2/2013 7:12 PM, Philip Townsend Lontz wrote: Good question... I would like to know too. A wise man once said nothing On Sep 2, 2013, at 5:10 PM, Jim Brown j...@audiosystemsgroup.com wrote: 43 ft verticals have become a popular antenna, and while they have some strong points, they present a very high SWR on most bands, so they require a serious tuner to get them to load. __ Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:Elecraft@mailman.qth.net This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html
Re: [Elecraft] 43 Ft Vertical and Elecraft Tuners
Hi Jim !! I have a ZeroFive 40 meter monoband vertical with 60-12 ft radials on a radial plate and use only the tuner on my K1. I can easily tune 40 , 20 and 15 but 30 I can get down to 1.6 to 1 (still acceptable) Feedline is RG-8X that is 75 ft long. Used this setup in many DX contests with great success along with many stateside contests. 73 George Osier , N2JNZ -Original Message- From: Jim Brown Sent: Monday, September 02, 2013 7:10 PM To: Reflector Elecraft Subject: [Elecraft] 43 Ft Vertical and Elecraft Tuners 43 ft verticals have become a popular antenna, and while they have some strong points, they present a very high SWR on most bands, so they require a serious tuner to get them to load. I'd like to know of any stations using a 43 Ft vertical as a multi-band antenna using nothing but an Elecraft antenna tuner for matching -- that is, no baluns, transformers, loading coils, or additional matching networks. I'd like to know the bands on which you are able to match it well enough to get full power from the rig (or the power amp). I'd like to know if the tuner is located at the base of the antenna, or, if in the shack, the length of feedline between antenna and tuner. Thanks and 73, Jim K9YC __ Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:Elecraft@mailman.qth.net This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html __ Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:Elecraft@mailman.qth.net This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html
Re: [Elecraft] 43 Ft Vertical and Elecraft Tuners
George, Let me suggest that move your tuner to the base of the vertical. It shouldn't make a big difference in tuning, but will cut your losses due to SWR, particularly on 15. 73, Barry K3NDM On 9/2/2013 8:49 PM, gos...@twcny.rr.com wrote: Hi Jim !! I have a ZeroFive 40 meter monoband vertical with 60-12 ft radials on a radial plate and use only the tuner on my K1. I can easily tune 40 , 20 and 15 but 30 I can get down to 1.6 to 1 (still acceptable) Feedline is RG-8X that is 75 ft long. Used this setup in many DX contests with great success along with many stateside contests. 73 George Osier , N2JNZ -Original Message- From: Jim Brown Sent: Monday, September 02, 2013 7:10 PM To: Reflector Elecraft Subject: [Elecraft] 43 Ft Vertical and Elecraft Tuners 43 ft verticals have become a popular antenna, and while they have some strong points, they present a very high SWR on most bands, so they require a serious tuner to get them to load. I'd like to know of any stations using a 43 Ft vertical as a multi-band antenna using nothing but an Elecraft antenna tuner for matching -- that is, no baluns, transformers, loading coils, or additional matching networks. I'd like to know the bands on which you are able to match it well enough to get full power from the rig (or the power amp). I'd like to know if the tuner is located at the base of the antenna, or, if in the shack, the length of feedline between antenna and tuner. Thanks and 73, Jim K9YC __ Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:Elecraft@mailman.qth.net This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html __ Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:Elecraft@mailman.qth.net This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html __ Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:Elecraft@mailman.qth.net This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html
Re: [Elecraft] 43 Ft Vertical and Elecraft Tuners
Barry, Number 1 is true if, and only if, the antenna is used below 14 MHz. It's all a matter of feed point impedance. The higher the impedance, the less ground dependent the antenna will be for good efficiency. At 1/2 wavelength and above, The ground has limited effect on the antenna efficiency. 73, Ron AC7AC -Original Message- From: elecraft-boun...@mailman.qth.net [mailto:elecraft-boun...@mailman.qth.net] On Behalf Of Barry LaZar Sent: Monday, September 02, 2013 4:32 PM To: elecraft@mailman.qth.net Subject: Re: [Elecraft] 43 Ft Vertical and Elecraft Tuners I know this isn't an answer to the basic premise of the raised question, but let me throw this out. 1. 43 ft. verticals that are ground mounted require a large, good ground system. 2. Depending on the band you are operating, the assumption of a high VSWR is correct. 3. High VSWRs on coax are a losing proposition. I use an 18' elevated vertical with an elevated radial system and a tuner at the base of the vertical. The reasons I do this are: 1. Elevated radial systems need not be as extensive as ground based radial systems; I have 4 radials, two 9 footers and two 19 footers. 2. 18 ft. is as high as I could get and still have my radial system close to where I wanted it; the tree was too low. 3. A tuner at the base of the vertical allows me to run coax all the way with an VSWR less than 1.5:1 on all bands. The question now is how does it play or compare. The answer is I don't have an absolute answer, but from what I see using WSPR at 1.5 Watts, it seems to play well. I only have only had the system up a few weeks and don't yet have enough experience with it to be more definitive. My gut tells me that this is a better overall system than expensive, commercial verticals. Almost everything is available from Home Depot except the tuner and a few insulators. I hope this has triggered some curiosity. 73, Barry K3NDM __ Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:Elecraft@mailman.qth.net This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html
Re: [Elecraft] 43 Ft Vertical and Elecraft Tuners
Aaargh. I meant the more ground independent the antenna becomes not less, above 14 MHz. That is the nature of the ground is less of a concern when the radiator is at least 1/2 wavelength long. 73, Ron AC7AC -Original Message- From: elecraft-boun...@mailman.qth.net [mailto:elecraft-boun...@mailman.qth.net] On Behalf Of Ron D'Eau Claire Sent: Monday, September 02, 2013 7:04 PM To: 'Barry LaZar'; elecraft@mailman.qth.net Subject: Re: [Elecraft] 43 Ft Vertical and Elecraft Tuners Barry, Number 1 is true if, and only if, the antenna is used below 14 MHz. It's all a matter of feed point impedance. The higher the impedance, the less ground dependent the antenna will be for good efficiency. At 1/2 wavelength and above, The ground has limited effect on the antenna efficiency. 73, Ron AC7AC -Original Message- From: elecraft-boun...@mailman.qth.net [mailto:elecraft-boun...@mailman.qth.net] On Behalf Of Barry LaZar Sent: Monday, September 02, 2013 4:32 PM To: elecraft@mailman.qth.net Subject: Re: [Elecraft] 43 Ft Vertical and Elecraft Tuners I know this isn't an answer to the basic premise of the raised question, but let me throw this out. 1. 43 ft. verticals that are ground mounted require a large, good ground system. 2. Depending on the band you are operating, the assumption of a high VSWR is correct. 3. High VSWRs on coax are a losing proposition. I use an 18' elevated vertical with an elevated radial system and a tuner at the base of the vertical. The reasons I do this are: 1. Elevated radial systems need not be as extensive as ground based radial systems; I have 4 radials, two 9 footers and two 19 footers. 2. 18 ft. is as high as I could get and still have my radial system close to where I wanted it; the tree was too low. 3. A tuner at the base of the vertical allows me to run coax all the way with an VSWR less than 1.5:1 on all bands. The question now is how does it play or compare. The answer is I don't have an absolute answer, but from what I see using WSPR at 1.5 Watts, it seems to play well. I only have only had the system up a few weeks and don't yet have enough experience with it to be more definitive. My gut tells me that this is a better overall system than expensive, commercial verticals. Almost everything is available from Home Depot except the tuner and a few insulators. I hope this has triggered some curiosity. 73, Barry K3NDM __ Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:Elecraft@mailman.qth.net This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html __ Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:Elecraft@mailman.qth.net This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html
Re: [Elecraft] 43 Ft Vertical and Elecraft Tuners
Don#x27;t worry about remoteing the tuner, but ditch the RG8X and use RG8 with the least loss you can find. George,W6GF __ Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:Elecraft@mailman.qth.net This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html
