Re: [Elecraft] FT8: "Magic radio"?
I've been using FT8 extensively, if not exclusively at times, on 6M. I've operated 6M since the mid-80's from the Midwest (Missouri). Propagation on 6M here is often a black hole for RF. Using FT8, there have been frequent EU, SA and JA openings, whereas in prior years they have been few and far between. It's not just propagation, it's the sensitivity FT8 brings to the table that has allowed the band openings to be realized. It might truly be a "Magic Radio" on the "Magic Band." I still check the CW and phone segments, and it's often "crickets" there while it's quite active on FT8. The mode has definitely enhanced my 6M experience. I concur with the comments that using FT8 to its full advantage requires operator intervention and some degree of skill. It's not simply an "appliance mode." Lou, W0FK - St. Louis, MO "The difference between stupidity and genius is that genius has its limits." Albert Einstein -- Sent from: http://elecraft.365791.n2.nabble.com/ __ Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:Elecraft@mailman.qth.net This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html Message delivered to arch...@mail-archive.com
Re: [Elecraft] FT8: "Magic radio"?
I quoted the context. On 7/3/2018 6:35 PM, Neil Zampella wrote: Wes, you're taking that out of context. The structured messages allow for redundancy if some of the original message is missing. The decoder can take the sync symbols so that the system can understand what type of message it is, it still needs the callsign and signal report. More details can be found here: https://physics.princeton.edu/pulsar/k1jt/wsjtx-doc/wsjtx-main-1.9.1.html#PROTOCOLS and here https://physics.princeton.edu/pulsar/k1jt/FrankeTaylor_QEX_2016.pdf which covers JT65, but which forms some of the basis for the other JT/FT protocols. Neil, KN3ILZ On 7/3/2018 5:16 PM, Wes Stewart wrote: In a message to this group back in February I wrote: Quoting G4WJS: "For FT8 the net effect is that up to about 5 seconds of a message may be missing yet still be decoded. The amount missing can be either a truncation or parts of the message below the decoding threshold. The FT8 message is structured with sync symbols at the start, middle and end so missing the start or end may have less impact than missing other parts since mostly sync symbols may be lost and they contain no message information." Hence, I dubbed the mode, "Imaginary" since it hears things that aren't there. Wes N7WS __ Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:Elecraft@mailman.qth.net This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html Message delivered to arch...@mail-archive.com
Re: [Elecraft] FT8: "Magic radio"?
No, it's not a failure of the mode, but a question of personal ethics. Other ops have theirs, I have mine. On 7/4/2018 7:13 AM, Joe Subich, W4TV wrote: > JTAlert was informing me that my QSO partner was/had been sending > me a text message informing me that he had my report and I should be > sending RRR. At that point I stopped transmitting and unloaded the > software. Which is why I do not enable the text message capability in JT-Alert or EME operators do not use Ping Jockey, etc. during a schedule. That is *not* a failure of the mode - be it CW, JT65, JT9, FT8, PSK31, RTTY or whatever. 73, ... Joe, W4TV On 2018-07-04 9:46 AM, Wes Stewart wrote: Actually, I was in the process of learning about JT65 by doing some listening tests when FT8 was added to the suite. So I took it up almost immediately after it was introduced. I think I was up to about 80 "contacts" when someone on the WSJT-X Yahoo group suggested that JTAlert was a great thing to have. I wasn't quite sure why, but I installed anyway. The setup in my shack has a laptop on a shelf above a larger monitor on the operating desk. Normally, the log is on the laptop and everything else is below using Windows split screen. I was trying to work a west African station and we were part way through the QSO when it became clear I was getting QRMed each time I (my computer) sent a report. After several sequences I saw a brief flash of a window popping up but straddling both screens so I didn't quite understand what it was. A few seconds later it happened again but this time I got the gist of what it was. JTAlert was informing me that my QSO partner was/had been sending me a text message informing me that he had my report and I should be sending RRR. At that point I stopped transmitting and unloaded the software. Nuff said. Wes N7WS __ Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:Elecraft@mailman.qth.net This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html Message delivered to wes_n...@triconet.org __ Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:Elecraft@mailman.qth.net This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html Message delivered to arch...@mail-archive.com
Re: [Elecraft] FT8: "Magic radio"?
> JTAlert was informing me that my QSO partner was/had been sending > me a text message informing me that he had my report and I should be > sending RRR. At that point I stopped transmitting and unloaded the > software. Which is why I do not enable the text message capability in JT-Alert or EME operators do not use Ping Jockey, etc. during a schedule. That is *not* a failure of the mode - be it CW, JT65, JT9, FT8, PSK31, RTTY or whatever. 73, ... Joe, W4TV On 2018-07-04 9:46 AM, Wes Stewart wrote: Actually, I was in the process of learning about JT65 by doing some listening tests when FT8 was added to the suite. So I took it up almost immediately after it was introduced. I think I was up to about 80 "contacts" when someone on the WSJT-X Yahoo group suggested that JTAlert was a great thing to have. I wasn't quite sure why, but I installed anyway. The setup in my shack has a laptop on a shelf above a larger monitor on the operating desk. Normally, the log is on the laptop and everything else is below using Windows split screen. I was trying to work a west African station and we were part way through the QSO when it became clear I was getting QRMed each time I (my computer) sent a report. After several sequences I saw a brief flash of a window popping up but straddling both screens so I didn't quite understand what it was. A few seconds later it happened again but this time I got the gist of what it was. JTAlert was informing me that my QSO partner was/had been sending me a text message informing me that he had my report and I should be sending RRR. At that point I stopped transmitting and unloaded the software. Nuff said. Wes N7WS __ Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:Elecraft@mailman.qth.net This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html Message delivered to arch...@mail-archive.com
Re: [Elecraft] FT8: "Magic radio"?
I thought Eric CLOSED this thread YESTERDAY! Getting tired of deleting references to FT-8. -- Original Message -- From: "Wes Stewart" To: elecraft@mailman.qth.net Sent: 7/4/2018 8:46:48 AM Subject: Re: [Elecraft] FT8: "Magic radio"? Actually, I was in the process of learning about JT65 by doing some listening tests when FT8 was added to the suite. So I took it up almost immediately after it was introduced. I think I was up to about 80 "contacts" when someone on the WSJT-X Yahoo group suggested that JTAlert was a great thing to have. I wasn't quite sure why, but I installed anyway. The setup in my shack has a laptop on a shelf above a larger monitor on the operating desk. Normally, the log is on the laptop and everything else is below using Windows split screen. I was trying to work a west African station and we were part way through the QSO when it became clear I was getting QRMed each time I (my computer) sent a report. After several sequences I saw a brief flash of a window popping up but straddling both screens so I didn't quite understand what it was. A few seconds later it happened again but this time I got the gist of what it was. JTAlert was informing me that my QSO partner was/had been sending me a text message informing me that he had my report and I should be sending RRR. At that point I stopped transmitting and unloaded the software. Nuff said. Wes N7WS On 7/3/2018 6:36 PM, Neil Zampella wrote: .. and if you add JT-Alert to the mix, it can do the QRZ lookup for you .. Neil, KN3ILZ On 7/3/2018 5:32 PM, Carl Yaffey wrote: On Jul 3, 2018, at 4:42 PM, Grant Youngman wrote: and don’t care to find out what the other guy’s name is or what he/she does when they aren’t punching at their own keyboard As soon as I start an FT8 “iso”, I go to QRZ and look the person up. Carl Yaffey K8NU Recording studio. cyaffeyno_s...@gmail.com 614 268 6353, Columbus OH http://www.carl-yaffey.com http://www.grassahol.com http://www.bluesswing.com __ Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:Elecraft@mailman.qth.net This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html Message delivered to wes_n...@triconet.org __ Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:Elecraft@mailman.qth.net This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html Message delivered to w...@cox.net __ Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:Elecraft@mailman.qth.net This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html Message delivered to arch...@mail-archive.com
Re: [Elecraft] FT8: "Magic radio"?
Actually, I was in the process of learning about JT65 by doing some listening tests when FT8 was added to the suite. So I took it up almost immediately after it was introduced. I think I was up to about 80 "contacts" when someone on the WSJT-X Yahoo group suggested that JTAlert was a great thing to have. I wasn't quite sure why, but I installed anyway. The setup in my shack has a laptop on a shelf above a larger monitor on the operating desk. Normally, the log is on the laptop and everything else is below using Windows split screen. I was trying to work a west African station and we were part way through the QSO when it became clear I was getting QRMed each time I (my computer) sent a report. After several sequences I saw a brief flash of a window popping up but straddling both screens so I didn't quite understand what it was. A few seconds later it happened again but this time I got the gist of what it was. JTAlert was informing me that my QSO partner was/had been sending me a text message informing me that he had my report and I should be sending RRR. At that point I stopped transmitting and unloaded the software. Nuff said. Wes N7WS On 7/3/2018 6:36 PM, Neil Zampella wrote: .. and if you add JT-Alert to the mix, it can do the QRZ lookup for you .. Neil, KN3ILZ On 7/3/2018 5:32 PM, Carl Yaffey wrote: On Jul 3, 2018, at 4:42 PM, Grant Youngman wrote: and don’t care to find out what the other guy’s name is or what he/she does when they aren’t punching at their own keyboard As soon as I start an FT8 “iso”, I go to QRZ and look the person up. Carl Yaffey K8NU Recording studio. cyaffeyno_s...@gmail.com 614 268 6353, Columbus OH http://www.carl-yaffey.com http://www.grassahol.com http://www.bluesswing.com __ Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:Elecraft@mailman.qth.net This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html Message delivered to wes_n...@triconet.org __ Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:Elecraft@mailman.qth.net This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html Message delivered to arch...@mail-archive.com
Re: [Elecraft] FT8: "Magic radio"?
I restrict myself to work FT8 with 5W output for 20m to 10m bands where I can use 2 elements quad up about 20 meter. Although QSO sometimes depends on other station’s receiving capability, 5W is good enough to work many DX stations around the world including long path west Africa and EU. To work with DX stations in east-asia and OC, I sometime reduce output power to 1W or less. Working DXs with very small power is really great fun. 73 de JH3SIF, Keith > 2018/07/04 12:42、Richard のメール: > > Glad to see someone else enjoying the reality of FT8. > > For all those who are running huge power because they think that’s what it > takes to work FT8 DX — ruining the enjoyment of others in the process — > consider this. > > About a week ago, from my little central Florida station, running 75 watts > into a hex beam up just 30 feet, I worked 25 Australian stations nearly in a > row in the space of 90 minutes. All were over 9000 miles, 11 were over 10,000 > miles, and 4 were over 11,000 to 12,000 miles. It was a BALL! > > It was amazing but not all that unusual. The fun is catching big ones on > light tackle, not shooting them in a barrel with a 12-gauge. > > Cheers, > Richard - W4KBX > >> But if you're willing to accept the tradeoff you can make QSO's that would >> otherwise be IMPOSSIBLE. >> >> I worked an HA the other night using FT8 with no repeats needed, and I >> didn't even see his signal on the waterfall. That's a Q that could not have >> been made otherwise. I like it! >> >> 73, >> --Lenny W2BVH >> >> >> __ >> Elecraft mailing list >> Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft >> Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm >> Post: mailto:Elecraft@mailman.qth.net >> >> This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net >> Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html >> Message delivered to flat...@comcast.net > > __ > Elecraft mailing list > Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft > Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm > Post: mailto:Elecraft@mailman.qth.net > > This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net > Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html > Message delivered to jh3...@sumaq.jp __ Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:Elecraft@mailman.qth.net This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html Message delivered to arch...@mail-archive.com
Re: [Elecraft] FT8: "Magic radio"?
According to the KH1 people fully half of the FT8 callers are using the wrong software or mode. I don't know if the guy I heard yesterday in the CW portion of 40 meters was one of them but he was warbling away there for a good long time; nice signal too-- s9+20db. 73, Drew AF2Z On 07/03/18 17:13, Jim Brown wrote: On 7/3/2018 1:59 PM, ANDY DURBIN wrote: If I can work expeditions with FT8, I'll find better things to do with my time than sitting in a pileup for hours with guys tuning up or calling on top of the DX, which then brings out the childish "cops" cursing them and "yelling UP idiot." 73, Jim K9YC __ Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:Elecraft@mailman.qth.net This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html Message delivered to arch...@mail-archive.com
Re: [Elecraft] FT8: "Magic radio"?
One of the very best things about Ham radio is how mindbogglingly huge the tent is ^_^ de KX2CW Joan Darmok and Jalad at Tanagra, said Piglet. Shaka, when the walls fell, said Pooh. > On Jul 3, 2018, at 14:11, Bill Frantz wrote: > > I can't resist. > > My accomplishments: I have a DXCC with 150+ LotW confirmed entities. I have > over 100 entities on both digital and CW, less on voice. I have a triple play > WAS. I have 5 contacts with KH1/KH7Z in their log, 2 CW, 2 FT8, and 1 SSB. > (I'm missing RTTY.) I'm active in ARES/RACES, and like to rag chew, either on > the local repeaters, or with PSK31. I'm trying to be a well rounded ham. > > I look at FT8 as another step in station automation. > > Back when I started, in the early 1960s, it was normal to have separate > transmitters and receivers. Frequently people would have to manually switch > the antenna between the two. Now we have full break in with CW. That's an > advance in station automation. > > We used to keep logs on paper, now many of us keep them on a computer > reducing the chance for error in details like frequency and time. FT8 carries > it a step further by building a log entry which includes the call, grid and > signal reports. That's an advance in station automation. > > We used to scan the bands by turning the big knob to locate other stations. > Now we have spotting networks and panadapters. That's an advance in station > automation. > > When one station wanted to call another, it had to transmit for a long enough > time so the other station could find him. CQs were long for the same reason. > Now we can change to his listening frequency and make a call. Many people use > this technique for working DX pileups. FT8 makes it even more automatic by > highlighting all messages that include your call sign. That's an advance in > station automation. > > Where do I come down in all of this? I'm all over the place. In CW contests, > I operate unassisted because I want to improve my CW skills, and getting the > calls from a spot or decoder doesn't help me toward this goal. When working > as part of a contest team, I'm happy using everything that is legal for our > entry category. When trying to work rare DX, I'm quite happy running power. I > just want to put out a clean signal and not be too obnoxious to other hams. > > I've heard a lot of comment about various contest rules being too automated > or requiring facilities that are not available to everyone. For example > contests that provide real-time score tracking. Here I think we should let > 1000 flowers bloom. Sure, enjoy Straight Key Night (SKN) and bring out your > boat anchor and old paper log book. But also have contests where contesters > and an audience can keep track of the scores in real time. Some people can't > do CW and sit SKN out. Others may not have the Internet connectivity needed > for the real-time contest. In the old days, many hams did not have a Teletype > machine for RTTY contests and had to forgo RTTY contacts. > > Do what you enjoy. Ham radio is a very big tent. > > 73 Bill AE6JV > > --- > Bill Frantz| Re: Computer reliability, performance, and security: > 408-356-8506 | The guy who *is* wearing a parachute is *not* the > www.pwpconsult.com | first to reach the ground. - Terence Kelly > > __ Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:Elecraft@mailman.qth.net This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html Message delivered to arch...@mail-archive.com
Re: [Elecraft] FT8: "Magic radio"?
Glad to see someone else enjoying the reality of FT8. For all those who are running huge power because they think that’s what it takes to work FT8 DX — ruining the enjoyment of others in the process — consider this. About a week ago, from my little central Florida station, running 75 watts into a hex beam up just 30 feet, I worked 25 Australian stations nearly in a row in the space of 90 minutes. All were over 9000 miles, 11 were over 10,000 miles, and 4 were over 11,000 to 12,000 miles. It was a BALL! It was amazing but not all that unusual. The fun is catching big ones on light tackle, not shooting them in a barrel with a 12-gauge. Cheers, Richard - W4KBX > But if you're willing to accept the tradeoff you can make QSO's that would > otherwise be IMPOSSIBLE. > > I worked an HA the other night using FT8 with no repeats needed, and I didn't > even see his signal on the waterfall. That's a Q that could not have been > made otherwise. I like it! > > 73, > --Lenny W2BVH > > > __ > Elecraft mailing list > Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft > Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm > Post: mailto:Elecraft@mailman.qth.net > > This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net > Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html > Message delivered to flat...@comcast.net __ Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:Elecraft@mailman.qth.net This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html Message delivered to arch...@mail-archive.com
Re: [Elecraft] FT8: "Magic radio"?
Basically FT8 adds tremendously to your receiver's sensitivity. The tradeoff is that the QSOs are highly structured. Not much opportunity for "How's the weather in Dogpatch?" But if you're willing to accept the tradeoff you can make QSO's that would otherwise be IMPOSSIBLE. If you're not willing to make the tradeoff the other modes are still there for you, just maybe not with some OM's you'd like to work. I worked an HA the other night using FT8 with no repeats needed, and I didn't even see his signal on the waterfall. That's a Q that could not have been made otherwise. I like it! 73, --Lenny W2BVH __ Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:Elecraft@mailman.qth.net This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html Message delivered to arch...@mail-archive.com
Re: [Elecraft] FT8: "Magic radio"?
Soon after I started FT8 in April, I like others wondered why I am sitting in front of the 'tube" listening to the "whales" talk to each other (at least thats what it sound like!). I quickly got bored, but since there really wasn't any good DX floating around, I got addicted to it, just working for WAS, etc. One day in April, I had an Elmer tell me about /pskreporter/, to use in seeing where I was being heard, etc. One evening when 20M was pretty wide open to the east (AS and EU Russia) and west (Japan, China, VK/ZL), I noticed hams were being reported all around Uzbekistan, one of the dozen remaining entities I need. I looked up on a few websites that had active UK? Uzbekistan hams on the air. There was UK9AA, active and on FT8 I had never heard Uzbekistan in many years and was excited maybe I could work him on FT8. Well, you can guess the rest of the story. I emailed him, Fedor, and we set up a sked, eventually completing the qso on FT8 on 20 meters! With 70 watts at that! Wow, that was easy! Since then, I have worked over 75 countries w/o even trying on the new digital mode! It's still not as exciting as grabbing a rare on on CW, but it sure gives one another tool to work the rare one! - Roger W5RDW -- Sent from: http://elecraft.365791.n2.nabble.com/ __ Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:Elecraft@mailman.qth.net This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html Message delivered to arch...@mail-archive.com
Re: [Elecraft] FT8: "Magic radio"?
.. and if you add JT-Alert to the mix, it can do the QRZ lookup for you .. Neil, KN3ILZ On 7/3/2018 5:32 PM, Carl Yaffey wrote: On Jul 3, 2018, at 4:42 PM, Grant Youngman wrote: and don’t care to find out what the other guy’s name is or what he/she does when they aren’t punching at their own keyboard As soon as I start an FT8 “iso”, I go to QRZ and look the person up. Carl Yaffey K8NU Recording studio. cyaffeyno_s...@gmail.com 614 268 6353, Columbus OH http://www.carl-yaffey.com http://www.grassahol.com http://www.bluesswing.com __ Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:Elecraft@mailman.qth.net This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html Message delivered to arch...@mail-archive.com
Re: [Elecraft] FT8: "Magic radio"?
Wes, you're taking that out of context. The structured messages allow for redundancy if some of the original message is missing. The decoder can take the sync symbols so that the system can understand what type of message it is, it still needs the callsign and signal report. More details can be found here: https://physics.princeton.edu/pulsar/k1jt/wsjtx-doc/wsjtx-main-1.9.1.html#PROTOCOLS and here https://physics.princeton.edu/pulsar/k1jt/FrankeTaylor_QEX_2016.pdf which covers JT65, but which forms some of the basis for the other JT/FT protocols. Neil, KN3ILZ On 7/3/2018 5:16 PM, Wes Stewart wrote: In a message to this group back in February I wrote: Quoting G4WJS: "For FT8 the net effect is that up to about 5 seconds of a message may be missing yet still be decoded. The amount missing can be either a truncation or parts of the message below the decoding threshold. The FT8 message is structured with sync symbols at the start, middle and end so missing the start or end may have less impact than missing other parts since mostly sync symbols may be lost and they contain no message information." Hence, I dubbed the mode, "Imaginary" since it hears things that aren't there. Wes N7WS On 7/3/2018 12:36 PM, Wayne Burdick wrote: Overheard yesterday on 40 meter SSB, in reference to FT8: “Given the level of automation and whatnot, maybe they should call it ‘magic radio’ instead of ‘ham radio’.” New contest category? Wayne N6KR __ Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:Elecraft@mailman.qth.net This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html Message delivered to wes_n...@triconet.org __ Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:Elecraft@mailman.qth.net This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html Message delivered to arch...@mail-archive.com
Re: [Elecraft] FT8: "Magic radio"?
Mike, the only automation is in the middle of the contact, the operator has to be in front of the radio and computer in order to select a station to answer, to begin transmission, and to log the QSO. None of that is automated in WSJT-X. I cannot speak for other programs that have gone beyond that. Neil, KN3ILZ On 7/3/2018 5:06 PM, W0MU Mike Fatchett wrote: That is FT8. There is no involvement once the contact starts. That is the beauty of it. The automation is no legal in the USA and many other places but I doubt it will be addressed much like excessive power. It is never addressed. Do it right. Don't worry about others. Have fun. The RTTY difference is that they come back to me and I moved, they can't find me, they waste more time sending w0mu 599 over and over and over again. That is not better in my book. If have not left. I push one other button to make a contact. Seems pretty similar to me. To each their own. W0MU On 7/3/2018 2:59 PM, ANDY DURBIN wrote: "How is it any different than the RTTY setups used for DXpeditions that would do essentially the same thing, listen over a wide range and stack the calls heard?" The, in my opinion huge, difference is that FT8 DXpedition mode does not even require the operator to be in the shack to complete the QSO. All it takes is to start auto TX of your grid and then walk away. As long as your call gets on the stack before your watchdog times out (assuming you have not defeated it) then the rest is automatic, including waking up your TX Enable if it had timed out. Two of my KH1 FT8 QSO were completed after I had given up and turned off TX Enable. Although I was still in the shack I had no involvement in completing the QSO. I was just a spectator. That is very different from the level of interaction required to complete a QSO in CW, Phone, or RTTY. I have no opinion on the experience of the DXpedition operator. Never been one and not likely to be one. 73, Andy k3wyc __ Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:Elecraft@mailman.qth.net This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html Message delivered to w...@w0mu.com __ Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:Elecraft@mailman.qth.net This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html Message delivered to arch...@mail-archive.com
Re: [Elecraft] FT8: "Magic radio"?
Andy, that's not right ... you have to be in the shack to make sure the system keeps calling as there is a 2 minute timer that will turn off your transmission. It is also suggested that if you don't get a reply back after the first two minute period, manually move the Tx freq. Finally, once you do get that final acknowledgement from the DXpedition, you have to physically log the QSO. It does not do it automatically. From the DXPedition mode user guide: "You may keep calling until he answers, perhaps changing your Tx frequency in the hope of finding a frequency clear of interference. Use Shift+Click on the waterfall to change your Tx frequency — the red “goal posts” marker on the waterfall scale. You will need to re-activate Enable Tx (or hit Enter on the keyboard) at least once every two minutes. (This restriction is to ensure that an operator is present and paying attention.)" As far as it still running, you must have missed this part of the Users Guide for HOUNDS in Item 12: "Note that WSJT-X will send this message even if Enable Tx is disabled, and even if you have not called Fox for several Tx sequences. If you have stopped calling Fox because you will be leaving the rig unattended, you should quit WSJT-X or disable Hound mode in order to avoid the possibility of unwanted transmissions." So again, the operator is still in charge of what he's doing. All that said, there are a lot of people who live in very compromised locations that now have KH1 in their logs because of FT8. Unfortunately, it wasn't me. My location is such I didn't hear them on any mode. Neil, KN3ILZ On 7/3/2018 4:59 PM, ANDY DURBIN wrote: "How is it any different than the RTTY setups used for DXpeditions that would do essentially the same thing, listen over a wide range and stack the calls heard?" The, in my opinion huge, difference is that FT8 DXpedition mode does not even require the operator to be in the shack to complete the QSO. All it takes is to start auto TX of your grid and then walk away. As long as your call gets on the stack before your watchdog times out (assuming you have not defeated it) then the rest is automatic, including waking up your TX Enable if it had timed out. Two of my KH1 FT8 QSO were completed after I had given up and turned off TX Enable. Although I was still in the shack I had no involvement in completing the QSO. I was just a spectator. That is very different from the level of interaction required to complete a QSO in CW, Phone, or RTTY. I have no opinion on the experience of the DXpedition operator. Never been one and not likely to be one. 73, Andy k3wyc __ Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:Elecraft@mailman.qth.net This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html Message delivered to arch...@mail-archive.com
Re: [Elecraft] FT8: "Magic radio"?
Even in my analog EME days, a pretty good test of a CW op, I never once heard a signal that was there before I started listening. (G4WJS was responding to my concern about K3's timing issues on FT8 delaying transmission.) Now the JT65 guys "copy" callsigns by looking up the closest sounding one in a database with the program saying "Ah ha" that must be the one. I realize that contest software does the same guessing these days, but I don't regularly operate in contests, so I use my regular log and type it in myself. Regards, Wes N7WS On 7/3/2018 4:48 PM, Joe Subich, W4TV wrote: On 2018-07-03 5:16 PM, Wes Stewart wrote: Hence, I dubbed the mode, "Imaginary" since it hears things that aren't there. Not true. It takes advantage of large polynomial encoding that allows the decoder to "get the message" in spite of missing or damaged bits. That's no different than *an experienced CW operator* will "copy" callsigns through noise and QRM by picking up one or two characters at a time from multiple repeats. 73, ... Joe, W4TV On 2018-07-03 5:16 PM, Wes Stewart wrote: In a message to this group back in February I wrote: Quoting G4WJS: "For FT8 the net effect is that up to about 5 seconds of a message may be missing yet still be decoded. The amount missing can be either a truncation or parts of the message below the decoding threshold. The FT8 message is structured with sync symbols at the start, middle and end so missing the start or end may have less impact than missing other parts since mostly sync symbols may be lost and they contain no message information." Hence, I dubbed the mode, "Imaginary" since it hears things that aren't there. Wes N7WS __ Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:Elecraft@mailman.qth.net This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html Message delivered to arch...@mail-archive.com
Re: [Elecraft] FT8: "Magic radio"?
Grant, Was that a McBee desk-sized rather than desktop computer? I saw one of those in my youth, but I live in the town where they were manufactured. 73, Carl N8VZ Sent from my iPhone === Carl Jón Denbow, N8VZ 17 Coventry Lane Athens, Ohio 45701-3718 c...@n8vz.com www.n8vz.com EM89wh IRLP 4533 Echolink 116070 PSK and JT65 Forever! === > On Jul 3, 2018, at 8:46 PM, Eric Swartz - WA6HHQ, Elecraft > wrote: > > Folks - Let's end this OT thread at this time in the interest of relieving > other readers from email overload. > > 73, > Eric > Mooderator.. > /elecraft.com/ > __ > Elecraft mailing list > Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft > Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm > Post: mailto:Elecraft@mailman.qth.net > > This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net > Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html > Message delivered to n...@qth.com __ Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:Elecraft@mailman.qth.net This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html Message delivered to arch...@mail-archive.com
Re: [Elecraft] FT8: "Magic radio"?
Folks - Let's end this OT thread at this time in the interest of relieving other readers from email overload. 73, Eric Mooderator.. /elecraft.com/ __ Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:Elecraft@mailman.qth.net This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html Message delivered to arch...@mail-archive.com
Re: [Elecraft] FT8: "Magic radio"?
On 2018-07-03 5:16 PM, Wes Stewart wrote: Hence, I dubbed the mode, "Imaginary" since it hears things that aren't there. Not true. It takes advantage of large polynomial encoding that allows the decoder to "get the message" in spite of missing or damaged bits. That's no different than *an experienced CW operator* will "copy" callsigns through noise and QRM by picking up one or two characters at a time from multiple repeats. 73, ... Joe, W4TV On 2018-07-03 5:16 PM, Wes Stewart wrote: In a message to this group back in February I wrote: Quoting G4WJS: "For FT8 the net effect is that up to about 5 seconds of a message may be missing yet still be decoded. The amount missing can be either a truncation or parts of the message below the decoding threshold. The FT8 message is structured with sync symbols at the start, middle and end so missing the start or end may have less impact than missing other parts since mostly sync symbols may be lost and they contain no message information." Hence, I dubbed the mode, "Imaginary" since it hears things that aren't there. Wes N7WS On 7/3/2018 12:36 PM, Wayne Burdick wrote: Overheard yesterday on 40 meter SSB, in reference to FT8: “Given the level of automation and whatnot, maybe they should call it ‘magic radio’ instead of ‘ham radio’.” New contest category? Wayne N6KR __ Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:Elecraft@mailman.qth.net This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html Message delivered to arch...@mail-archive.com
Re: [Elecraft] FT8: "Magic radio"?
I do the same thing. I'll add that I am always at the controls during FT8 contacts. I do nothing automatic with it. I laugh at all the hate FT8 gets. I don't get it. 73! Tom - KB2SMS On 07/03/2018 05:32 PM, Carl Yaffey wrote: On Jul 3, 2018, at 4:42 PM, Grant Youngman wrote: and don’t care to find out what the other guy’s name is or what he/she does when they aren’t punching at their own keyboard As soon as I start an FT8 “iso”, I go to QRZ and look the person up. Carl Yaffey K8NU __ Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:Elecraft@mailman.qth.net This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html Message delivered to arch...@mail-archive.com
Re: [Elecraft] FT8: "Magic radio"?
FT8 Hands-Off Ham Radio ;) On 03-Jul-18 15:36, Wayne Burdick wrote: Overheard yesterday on 40 meter SSB, in reference to FT8: “Given the level of automation and whatnot, maybe they should call it ‘magic radio’ instead of ‘ham radio’.” New contest category? Wayne N6KR __ Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:Elecraft@mailman.qth.net This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html Message delivered to w...@qsl.net __ Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:Elecraft@mailman.qth.net This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html Message delivered to arch...@mail-archive.com
Re: [Elecraft] FT8: "Magic radio"?
Mike, you hit the nail on the head. This is a mode that the big guns can't just overpower the little guy and be the first in and out. I bet it drives them nuts being relegated to the level of the small guns. 73 Tim, KQ8M k...@kq8m.com -Original Message- From: elecraft-boun...@mailman.qth.net [mailto:elecraft-boun...@mailman.qth.net] On Behalf Of W0MU Mike Fatchett Sent: Tuesday, July 3, 2018 16:25 To: elecraft@mailman.qth.net Subject: Re: [Elecraft] FT8: "Magic radio"? How is it any different than the RTTY setups used for DXpeditions that would do essentially the same thing, listen over a wide range and stack the calls heard? FT8 just allows them to complete 1 to 5 contacts at one time. That to me is pretty amazing!There is still plenty of skill in working FT8 if the goal is to get in and get out quick just like any more. Hey if you have all day to work someone chances are you will get them sooner or later. The cool part about this and the most important part is this mode is allowing people with really marginally poor stations to be able to actually get on Ham Radio and work people and work DX! It has to be exciting for them! Try to put yourself in their shoes. It is a whole new world! We need more activity, more active hams and maybe FT8 will be a building block to get more people in. I would hope this is a good thing! W0MU On 7/3/2018 2:10 PM, ANDY DURBIN wrote: > I have been using WSJT-X since before version 1.0 was made available. I was > also an early adopter of JT9 and FT8. I have enjoyed using JT65, JT9, and > FT8 for HF and 6 m QSO. Using DXpedition mode to work KH1 was a different > experience. I felt that the operator had been taken much too far "out of the > loop". I'm glad I made more KH1 QSO using CW than with FT8 and I found them > much more satisfying. > > FT8 DXPedition mode is certainly not for everyone but if it was the only way > I could make a QSO with KH1 I'd have been glad to have it in my log.KH1 > was DX 200 worked CW in 4 years. That was nice and only the magic of > propagation was involved. > > 73, > Andy k3wyc > > __ > Elecraft mailing list > Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft > Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm > Post: mailto:Elecraft@mailman.qth.net > > This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net > Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html > Message delivered to w...@w0mu.com __ Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:Elecraft@mailman.qth.net This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html Message delivered to k...@kq8m.com __ Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:Elecraft@mailman.qth.net This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html Message delivered to arch...@mail-archive.com
Re: [Elecraft] FT8: "Magic radio"?
Yes to both. I have taken advantage of the ability to receive, even with long dropouts, by turning off my transmissions for a few seconds to see if I'm on top of another station and therefore having more problems getting through. This ability also helps with noise bursts. The QRM solution is inspired. If wsjt-x decodes a signal, it will back encode that signal and subtract encoded signal from the received signal. Frequently it can then decode a station on the same or a nearby frequency. These "second decode" stations are reported at the end of the decoding report. 73 Bill AE6JV On 7/3/18 at 2:17 PM, j...@audiosystemsgroup.com (Jim Brown) wrote: And I suspect FT8 has much better immunityto noise and QRM. -- Bill Frantz| There are now so many exceptions to the 408-356-8506 | Fourth Amendment that it operates only by www.pwpconsult.com | accident. - William Hugh Murray __ Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:Elecraft@mailman.qth.net This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html Message delivered to arch...@mail-archive.com
Re: [Elecraft] FT8: "Magic radio"?
On Jul 3, 2018, at 4:42 PM, Grant Youngman wrote: > and don’t care to find out what the other guy’s name is or what he/she does > when they aren’t punching at their own keyboard As soon as I start an FT8 “iso”, I go to QRZ and look the person up. Carl Yaffey K8NU Recording studio. cyaffeyno_s...@gmail.com 614 268 6353, Columbus OH http://www.carl-yaffey.com http://www.grassahol.com http://www.bluesswing.com __ Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:Elecraft@mailman.qth.net This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html Message delivered to arch...@mail-archive.com
Re: [Elecraft] FT8: "Magic radio"?
"That is FT8. There is no involvement once the contact starts." That is only true is you choose to make it true. In basic FT8 mode "auto sequence" and "Call 1st" are operator options which I sometimes choose to disable. I also sometimes change my TX frequency in the middle of a QSO if I sense that I may not be being decoded because of QRM. Except for the selection of the initial TX frequency I felt completely out of the loop in DXpedition mode. I'm not saying it's a bad mode. I'm not saying it shouldn't be used. All I'm doing, as an experienced JT65, JT9 and FT8 operator, is commenting on my experience. 73, Andy k3wyc __ Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:Elecraft@mailman.qth.net This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html Message delivered to arch...@mail-archive.com
Re: [Elecraft] FT8: "Magic radio"?
On 7/3/2018 2:06 PM, W0MU Mike Fatchett wrote: The RTTY difference is that they come back In my experience, RTTY in a DX pileup is a pretty slow and frustrating process for both the DX and the caller. It takes a very skilled op to average 60 Qs/hour; a good CW op can at least double that. And I suspect FT8 has much better immunityto noise and QRM. 73, Jim K9YC __ Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:Elecraft@mailman.qth.net This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html Message delivered to arch...@mail-archive.com
Re: [Elecraft] FT8: "Magic radio"?
In a message to this group back in February I wrote: Quoting G4WJS: "For FT8 the net effect is that up to about 5 seconds of a message may be missing yet still be decoded. The amount missing can be either a truncation or parts of the message below the decoding threshold. The FT8 message is structured with sync symbols at the start, middle and end so missing the start or end may have less impact than missing other parts since mostly sync symbols may be lost and they contain no message information." Hence, I dubbed the mode, "Imaginary" since it hears things that aren't there. Wes N7WS On 7/3/2018 12:36 PM, Wayne Burdick wrote: Overheard yesterday on 40 meter SSB, in reference to FT8: “Given the level of automation and whatnot, maybe they should call it ‘magic radio’ instead of ‘ham radio’.” New contest category? Wayne N6KR __ Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:Elecraft@mailman.qth.net This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html Message delivered to wes_n...@triconet.org __ Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:Elecraft@mailman.qth.net This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html Message delivered to arch...@mail-archive.com
Re: [Elecraft] FT8: "Magic radio"?
On 7/3/2018 1:59 PM, ANDY DURBIN wrote: wo of my KH1 FT8 QSO were completed after I had given up and turned off TX Enable. Although I was still in the shack I had no involvement in completing the QSO. I was just a spectator. That is very different from the level of interaction required to complete a QSO in CW, Phone, or RTTY. Let's not forget that ham radio is a TECHNICAL hobby. While I've worked hard to improve my operating skills, transmitter, antenna, feedline, understanding propagation, working to find and kill receive noise are also part of it. And don't discount operator skill with WSJT modes -- knowing when to call, where to place yourself in the frequency window, all are things we need to learn. If I can work expeditions with FT8, I'll find better things to do with my time than sitting in a pileup for hours with guys tuning up or calling on top of the DX, which then brings out the childish "cops" cursing them and "yelling UP idiot." 73, Jim K9YC __ Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:Elecraft@mailman.qth.net This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html Message delivered to arch...@mail-archive.com
Re: [Elecraft] FT8: "Magic radio"?
I can't resist. My accomplishments: I have a DXCC with 150+ LotW confirmed entities. I have over 100 entities on both digital and CW, less on voice. I have a triple play WAS. I have 5 contacts with KH1/KH7Z in their log, 2 CW, 2 FT8, and 1 SSB. (I'm missing RTTY.) I'm active in ARES/RACES, and like to rag chew, either on the local repeaters, or with PSK31. I'm trying to be a well rounded ham. I look at FT8 as another step in station automation. Back when I started, in the early 1960s, it was normal to have separate transmitters and receivers. Frequently people would have to manually switch the antenna between the two. Now we have full break in with CW. That's an advance in station automation. We used to keep logs on paper, now many of us keep them on a computer reducing the chance for error in details like frequency and time. FT8 carries it a step further by building a log entry which includes the call, grid and signal reports. That's an advance in station automation. We used to scan the bands by turning the big knob to locate other stations. Now we have spotting networks and panadapters. That's an advance in station automation. When one station wanted to call another, it had to transmit for a long enough time so the other station could find him. CQs were long for the same reason. Now we can change to his listening frequency and make a call. Many people use this technique for working DX pileups. FT8 makes it even more automatic by highlighting all messages that include your call sign. That's an advance in station automation. Where do I come down in all of this? I'm all over the place. In CW contests, I operate unassisted because I want to improve my CW skills, and getting the calls from a spot or decoder doesn't help me toward this goal. When working as part of a contest team, I'm happy using everything that is legal for our entry category. When trying to work rare DX, I'm quite happy running power. I just want to put out a clean signal and not be too obnoxious to other hams. I've heard a lot of comment about various contest rules being too automated or requiring facilities that are not available to everyone. For example contests that provide real-time score tracking. Here I think we should let 1000 flowers bloom. Sure, enjoy Straight Key Night (SKN) and bring out your boat anchor and old paper log book. But also have contests where contesters and an audience can keep track of the scores in real time. Some people can't do CW and sit SKN out. Others may not have the Internet connectivity needed for the real-time contest. In the old days, many hams did not have a Teletype machine for RTTY contests and had to forgo RTTY contacts. Do what you enjoy. Ham radio is a very big tent. 73 Bill AE6JV --- Bill Frantz| Re: Computer reliability, performance, and security: 408-356-8506 | The guy who *is* wearing a parachute is *not* the www.pwpconsult.com | first to reach the ground. - Terence Kelly __ Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:Elecraft@mailman.qth.net This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html Message delivered to arch...@mail-archive.com
Re: [Elecraft] FT8: "Magic radio"?
That is FT8. There is no involvement once the contact starts. That is the beauty of it. The automation is no legal in the USA and many other places but I doubt it will be addressed much like excessive power. It is never addressed. Do it right. Don't worry about others. Have fun. The RTTY difference is that they come back to me and I moved, they can't find me, they waste more time sending w0mu 599 over and over and over again. That is not better in my book. If have not left. I push one other button to make a contact. Seems pretty similar to me. To each their own. W0MU On 7/3/2018 2:59 PM, ANDY DURBIN wrote: "How is it any different than the RTTY setups used for DXpeditions that would do essentially the same thing, listen over a wide range and stack the calls heard?" The, in my opinion huge, difference is that FT8 DXpedition mode does not even require the operator to be in the shack to complete the QSO. All it takes is to start auto TX of your grid and then walk away. As long as your call gets on the stack before your watchdog times out (assuming you have not defeated it) then the rest is automatic, including waking up your TX Enable if it had timed out. Two of my KH1 FT8 QSO were completed after I had given up and turned off TX Enable. Although I was still in the shack I had no involvement in completing the QSO. I was just a spectator. That is very different from the level of interaction required to complete a QSO in CW, Phone, or RTTY. I have no opinion on the experience of the DXpedition operator. Never been one and not likely to be one. 73, Andy k3wyc __ Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:Elecraft@mailman.qth.net This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html Message delivered to w...@w0mu.com __ Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:Elecraft@mailman.qth.net This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html Message delivered to arch...@mail-archive.com
Re: [Elecraft] FT8: "Magic radio"?
> On Jul 3, 2018, at 1:59 PM, ANDY DURBIN wrote: > > "How is it any different than the RTTY setups used for DXpeditions that > would do essentially the same thing, listen over a wide range and stack the > calls heard?" > > The, in my opinion huge, difference is that FT8 DXpedition mode does not even > require the operator to be in the shack to complete the QSO. All it takes is > to start auto TX of your grid and then walk away. As long as your call gets > on the stack before your watchdog times out (assuming you have not defeated > it) then the rest is automatic, including waking up your TX Enable if it had > timed out. > > Two of my KH1 FT8 QSO were completed after I had given up and turned off TX > Enable. Although I was still in the shack I had no involvement in completing > the QSO. I was just a spectator. That is very different from the level of > interaction required to complete a QSO in CW, Phone, or RTTY. I believe that’s what led to the “magic” comment in the overheard discussion. That, in fact, this sort of operation is in a class of its own. Wayne __ Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:Elecraft@mailman.qth.net This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html Message delivered to arch...@mail-archive.com
Re: [Elecraft] FT8: "Magic radio"?
FT8 is great technology. Maybe the Fox/Hound mode is, too. Personally, I got bored with it after about a week and moved on. Certainly, it’s the cat’s meow if all you care about is logging someone, somewhere, without doing any work, other than making sure you have the right Windows drivers installed and the right boxes checked, and don’t care to find out what the other guy’s name is or what he/she does when they aren’t punching at their own keyboard (well, you don’t even have to do THAT very often). Other than that, and reading all the issues people have with it and their machines/software they know nothing about (while blaming their radio) on the lists — meh. You can use your radio as just one more peripheral if you want. Good for you. Enjoy. I’ll be elsewhere on the bands. I’m old, going on 60 years licensed … and have a curmudgeonly point of view, no doubt. But … I spent my entire working life doing many innovative things with computers and software and automation in general. I’ve never used my radio as just one more Windows peripheral … and won’t. It isn’t that hard to avoid it … and it’s a whole lot more fun. Grant NQ5T K3 #2091, KX3 #8342 > On Jul 3, 2018, at 4:10 PM, ANDY DURBIN wrote: > > I have been using WSJT-X since before version 1.0 was made available. I was > also an early adopter of JT9 and FT8. I have enjoyed using JT65, JT9, and > FT8 for HF and 6 m QSO. Using DXpedition mode to work KH1 was a different > experience. I felt that the operator had been taken much too far "out of the > loop". I'm glad I made more KH1 QSO using CW than with FT8 and I found them > much more satisfying. > > FT8 DXPedition mode is certainly not for everyone but if it was the only way > I could make a QSO with KH1 I'd have been glad to have it in my log.KH1 > was DX 200 worked CW in 4 years. That was nice and only the magic of > propagation was involved. __ Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:Elecraft@mailman.qth.net This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html Message delivered to arch...@mail-archive.com
Re: [Elecraft] FT8: "Magic radio"?
I agree. We have a Club member who lives in a townhouse and who became a ham because their Dad was a ham. This ham literally has 100W and a wire dipole, only half of which is outside - and is in the log at KH1/KH7Z with a 20M FT8 QSO. Amateur Radio is a technological pursuit. The convergence of radio, computer and software technologies to create the digi-modes was probably inevitable. If FT8 helps interest more young people in Amateur Radio, I’m all for it. -- Mike Flowers, K6MKF, NCDXC - "It's about DX!" > On Jul 3, 2018, at 1:24 PM, W0MU Mike Fatchett wrote: > > How is it any different than the RTTY setups used for DXpeditions that would > do essentially the same thing, listen over a wide range and stack the calls > heard? FT8 just allows them to complete 1 to 5 contacts at one time. That > to me is pretty amazing!There is still plenty of skill in working FT8 if > the goal is to get in and get out quick just like any more. Hey if you have > all day to work someone chances are you will get them sooner or later. > > The cool part about this and the most important part is this mode is allowing > people with really marginally poor stations to be able to actually get on Ham > Radio and work people and work DX! It has to be exciting for them! > > Try to put yourself in their shoes. It is a whole new world! We need more > activity, more active hams and maybe FT8 will be a building block to get more > people in. I would hope this is a good thing! > > W0MU > > >> On 7/3/2018 2:10 PM, ANDY DURBIN wrote: >> I have been using WSJT-X since before version 1.0 was made available. I was >> also an early adopter of JT9 and FT8. I have enjoyed using JT65, JT9, and >> FT8 for HF and 6 m QSO. Using DXpedition mode to work KH1 was a different >> experience. I felt that the operator had been taken much too far "out of >> the loop". I'm glad I made more KH1 QSO using CW than with FT8 and I found >> them much more satisfying. >> >> FT8 DXPedition mode is certainly not for everyone but if it was the only way >> I could make a QSO with KH1 I'd have been glad to have it in my log.KH1 >> was DX 200 worked CW in 4 years. That was nice and only the magic of >> propagation was involved. >> >> 73, >> Andy k3wyc >> >> __ >> Elecraft mailing list >> Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft >> Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm >> Post: mailto:Elecraft@mailman.qth.net >> >> This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net >> Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html >> Message delivered to w...@w0mu.com > > __ > Elecraft mailing list > Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft > Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm > Post: mailto:Elecraft@mailman.qth.net > > This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net > Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html > Message delivered to mike.flow...@gmail.com __ Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:Elecraft@mailman.qth.net This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html Message delivered to arch...@mail-archive.com
Re: [Elecraft] FT8: "Magic radio"?
Actually if conditions allow, FT8 (Fox) can 'converse' with ten stations at once (5 audio streams at a cost of lower signal strength) raising the Q rate and efficiency of the opening(s). The primary differences from RTTY is that it's narrower, better utilizing the band space; it can easily work below the noise floor (not a dream of a chance with RTTY) and that FT8 is simpler for most folks than RTTY (point, click, connect). I score it as semi-automatic since an operator must still manage it; the signal strengths are more accurate (meaning honest) than the eternal '599' (after ten retries) and the largest bonus is that it keeps interest alive in the bottom of the cycle AND allows meager stations to have an improved shot at improving their DX standings. It's a breath of fresh air to reinvigorate ham radio at some level. Rick nhc On 7/3/2018 1:24 PM, W0MU Mike Fatchett wrote: How is it any different than the RTTY setups used for DXpeditions that would do essentially the same thing, listen over a wide range and stack the calls heard? FT8 just allows them to complete 1 to 5 contacts at one time. That to me is pretty amazing! There is still plenty of skill in working FT8 if the goal is to get in and get out quick just like any more. Hey if you have all day to work someone chances are you will get them sooner or later. The cool part about this and the most important part is this mode is allowing people with really marginally poor stations to be able to actually get on Ham Radio and work people and work DX! It has to be exciting for them! Try to put yourself in their shoes. It is a whole new world! We need more activity, more active hams and maybe FT8 will be a building block to get more people in. I would hope this is a good thing! W0MU On 7/3/2018 2:10 PM, ANDY DURBIN wrote: I have been using WSJT-X since before version 1.0 was made available. I was also an early adopter of JT9 and FT8. I have enjoyed using JT65, JT9, and FT8 for HF and 6 m QSO. Using DXpedition mode to work KH1 was a different experience. I felt that the operator had been taken much too far "out of the loop". I'm glad I made more KH1 QSO using CW than with FT8 and I found them much more satisfying. FT8 DXPedition mode is certainly not for everyone but if it was the only way I could make a QSO with KH1 I'd have been glad to have it in my log. KH1 was DX 200 worked CW in 4 years. That was nice and only the magic of propagation was involved. 73, Andy k3wyc __ Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:Elecraft@mailman.qth.net This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html Message delivered to w...@w0mu.com __ Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:Elecraft@mailman.qth.net This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html Message delivered to wa6...@gmail.com __ Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:Elecraft@mailman.qth.net This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html Message delivered to arch...@mail-archive.com
Re: [Elecraft] FT8: "Magic radio"?
If you haven’t tried FT8, you might be surprised at the skill you’ll need to use if effectively. It is NOT just automatic. 73, K8NU Carl Yaffey K8NU Recording studio. cyaffeyno_s...@gmail.com 614 268 6353, Columbus OH http://www.carl-yaffey.com http://www.grassahol.com http://www.bluesswing.com __ Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:Elecraft@mailman.qth.net This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html Message delivered to arch...@mail-archive.com
Re: [Elecraft] FT8: "Magic radio"?
How is it any different than the RTTY setups used for DXpeditions that would do essentially the same thing, listen over a wide range and stack the calls heard? FT8 just allows them to complete 1 to 5 contacts at one time. That to me is pretty amazing! There is still plenty of skill in working FT8 if the goal is to get in and get out quick just like any more. Hey if you have all day to work someone chances are you will get them sooner or later. The cool part about this and the most important part is this mode is allowing people with really marginally poor stations to be able to actually get on Ham Radio and work people and work DX! It has to be exciting for them! Try to put yourself in their shoes. It is a whole new world! We need more activity, more active hams and maybe FT8 will be a building block to get more people in. I would hope this is a good thing! W0MU On 7/3/2018 2:10 PM, ANDY DURBIN wrote: I have been using WSJT-X since before version 1.0 was made available. I was also an early adopter of JT9 and FT8. I have enjoyed using JT65, JT9, and FT8 for HF and 6 m QSO. Using DXpedition mode to work KH1 was a different experience. I felt that the operator had been taken much too far "out of the loop". I'm glad I made more KH1 QSO using CW than with FT8 and I found them much more satisfying. FT8 DXPedition mode is certainly not for everyone but if it was the only way I could make a QSO with KH1 I'd have been glad to have it in my log. KH1 was DX 200 worked CW in 4 years. That was nice and only the magic of propagation was involved. 73, Andy k3wyc __ Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:Elecraft@mailman.qth.net This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html Message delivered to w...@w0mu.com __ Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:Elecraft@mailman.qth.net This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html Message delivered to arch...@mail-archive.com
Re: [Elecraft] FT8: "Magic radio"?
After being a ham since 1981, and passing the CW test only because I was good at test-taking and it was a multiple choice test, I’m now learning CW all over again via LCWO.net and the Koch Method. I’m now about halfway through and I’m doing better than I could have ever imagined. I’m not going to ever be a very fast CW operator, and sending will be a whole new challenge, as my manual dexterity and sense of rhythm are not very good, but I do see the light at the end of the CW tunnel, which for me has been a real challenge. And, I also do FT8. In fact, I got WAS with FT8 in only about one month. I wasn’t planning on an FT8 WAS endorsement, but when I noticed that I had 35 states without even trying, I thought I might was well go for it. So, in my case, FT8 has killed CW interest at all, in fact, it might have played a small part in increasing my interest. Maybe one day, I can get WAS CW endorsement. That would be a real accomplishment for me. 73, Carl N8VZ Sent from my iPad > On Jul 3, 2018, at 3:48 PM, Fred Jensen wrote: > > The last Q in the FAQ at the end of Dr. Joe Taylor's instructions for use of > the DXpedition ["Fox and Hound"] mode of FT8 is: > > "Are you trying to kill CW?" > > If he is trying to kill CW, listening on 14023 and up suggests that he is > failing. > > 73, > > Fred ["Skip"] K6DGW > Sparks NV DM09dn > Washoe County > >> On 7/3/2018 12:36 PM, Wayne Burdick wrote: >> Overheard yesterday on 40 meter SSB, in reference to FT8: “Given the level >> of automation and whatnot, maybe they should call it ‘magic radio’ instead >> of ‘ham radio’.” >> >> New contest category? >> >> Wayne >> N6KR >> > > __ > Elecraft mailing list > Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft > Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm > Post: mailto:Elecraft@mailman.qth.net > > This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net > Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html > Message delivered to n...@qth.com __ Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:Elecraft@mailman.qth.net This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html Message delivered to arch...@mail-archive.com
Re: [Elecraft] FT8: "Magic radio"?
Sure was a lot of CW activity on Sunday. Great fun Wayne > On Jul 3, 2018, at 12:48 PM, Fred Jensen wrote: > > The last Q in the FAQ at the end of Dr. Joe Taylor's instructions for use of > the DXpedition ["Fox and Hound"] mode of FT8 is: > > "Are you trying to kill CW?" > > If he is trying to kill CW, listening on 14023 and up suggests that he is > failing. > > 73, > > Fred ["Skip"] K6DGW > Sparks NV DM09dn > Washoe County > > On 7/3/2018 12:36 PM, Wayne Burdick wrote: >> Overheard yesterday on 40 meter SSB, in reference to FT8: “Given the level >> of automation and whatnot, maybe they should call it ‘magic radio’ instead >> of ‘ham radio’.” >> >> New contest category? >> >> Wayne >> N6KR >> > > __ > Elecraft mailing list > Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft > Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm > Post: mailto:Elecraft@mailman.qth.net > > This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net > Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html > Message delivered to n...@elecraft.com __ Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:Elecraft@mailman.qth.net This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html Message delivered to arch...@mail-archive.com
Re: [Elecraft] FT8: "Magic radio"?
The last Q in the FAQ at the end of Dr. Joe Taylor's instructions for use of the DXpedition ["Fox and Hound"] mode of FT8 is: "Are you trying to kill CW?" If he is trying to kill CW, listening on 14023 and up suggests that he is failing. 73, Fred ["Skip"] K6DGW Sparks NV DM09dn Washoe County On 7/3/2018 12:36 PM, Wayne Burdick wrote: Overheard yesterday on 40 meter SSB, in reference to FT8: “Given the level of automation and whatnot, maybe they should call it ‘magic radio’ instead of ‘ham radio’.” New contest category? Wayne N6KR __ Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:Elecraft@mailman.qth.net This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html Message delivered to arch...@mail-archive.com
