Re: [Elecraft] HI CUR on 40

[Jim Brown]

On 10/31/2020 6:07 PM, David Olean wrote:
I would put the ferrite at the end of the coax before it goes into the 
rig if there were rf coming down the coax. Common mode energy can and 
will get on the outside of the coax. I am not an expert on this,
I AM an expert on this. :) The most important place for a choke in any 
antenna system is at the feedpoint. It's function is to prevent the 
feedline from becoming part of the antenna by adding a very high common 
mode impedance to the common mode circuit. The only good reasons for a 
choke elsewhere along the line are


1) to prevent the feedline from becoming a parasitic element of another 
antenna; for example, I choke the coax feedlines to my high (125 ft) 
dipoles for 80 and 40 so that they do not become parasitic to my three 
160M verticals. e


2) to prevent coupling shield current by a mechanism quantified as the 
"transfer impedance" of the coax shield. It is the ratio of the 
differential voltage generated inside the coax as a result of shield 
current. Its unit is Ohms, lower is better, and the lower limit is the 
RF resistance of the shield at the frequency of interest. But the 
quality, density, and uniformity of the shield makes an additive 
contribution -- a poor quality shield increases the transfer impedance.


Both of these measures minimize inter-station interference, both in-band 
and cross-band. W6GJB's contesting trailer has antennas for 15, 20, 40, 
and 80 supported on a single pneumatic mast, with their feedpoints 
within about 2 ft of each other. Because they are very effectively 
choked, and because we have dual stubs on the outputs of the power amps 
for the two stations, we can operate on adjacent bands at 500W 
(K3/KPA500) with minimal interference from the lower frequency station's 
harmonics to the higher frequency station. One day, Glen rebuilt the 
connection at the antenna and accidentally left out the choke, and the 
interstation interference was terrible.


A choke at the rig is only a band-aid for failure to do proper grounding 
and bonding in the shack and throughout the house. See N0AX's ARRL book 
on the topic, on which I collaborated, or the slides for my tutorial 
talk at Pacificon, Visalia, and to various ham clubs.

http://k9yc.com/GroundingAndAudio.pdf

The half-wave section of line you described in an earlier post may take 
care of the feedpoint for one band (and it may not be as effective as a 
well-designed choke), but it's not a solution for other bands. Properly 
designed chokes can cover multiple adjacent bands. See 
http://k9yc.com/2018Cookbook.pdf


73, Jim K9YC


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Re: [Elecraft] HI CUR on 40

[David Herring]

If there is ever any question about where to place ferrites, I’ll say in 
general, put the ferrites at both ends of the coax (unless its a really short 
run). 

Some may argue that that is overkill. While there are always exceptional 
circumstances, I would in general respectfully disagree with them if they did. 
While the benefits of placing them at the feed point are well documented, I 
have found that replicating the ferrites at the other end of the coax generally 
reduces noise in the receiver, making it possible to hear and thus work more 
stations… ;-) 

It would also be part of the solution to rf in the shack, provided that the 
ferrites provide enough choking impedance. 5000 ohms at the frequencies in 
question would likely do, but referring to K9YC’s papers for the specifics is 
advised.

Ferrites at both ends, along with proper bounding and grounding of the whole 
station a la K9YC has always worked well for me. 

73,
David - N5DCH



> On Oct 31, 2020, at 7:07 PM, David Olean  wrote:
> 
> 
> Hi Mike,
> 
> I would put the ferrite at the end of the coax before it goes into the rig if 
> there were rf coming down the coax. Common mode energy can and will get on 
> the outside of the coax. I am not an expert on this, but I would expect that 
> any problem that would cause a transmitter to misbehave would  involve strong 
> levels most likely encountered near the antenna where the fields could be 
> high.   Of all the folks that have used that 5 element six meter yagi, (me 
> included) No one has ever had a stray RF problem. Running the coax 
> perpendicular to the elements and tied down to the boom is all that is needed 
> to keep things quiet.  I am at a loss to explain any other outcome.
> 
> I suppose there could be a fault in the balun area, but I would think that 
> the SWR would climb well above 1:1 in that case.
> 
> Dave K1WHS
> 
> On 10/31/2020 11:13 AM, M Cresap wrote:
>> Dave
>> 
>> So where is the optimum place to place the ferrites for this antenna if you 
>> have a problem like Alan described?
>> 
>> Does the near field extend roughly to half the stacking distance of that 
>> antenna (i.e. 6 feet or so), making that the best place for the ferrites?
>> 
>> Does a mostly vertical coax passing through the near field of a horizontally 
>> polarized antenna (i.e. an antenna side mounted to a tower) need ferrites?
>> 
>> Do you need to decouple ALL of the rest of your coaxes and control lines at 
>> the lower near field edge of that antenna (or at some other point)? I have 
>> heard that argument (decouple everything) made to improve performance of 
>> inverted L antennas on 160 meters located near a tower.
>> 
>> 73, Mike, W3IP
>> 
>> On Saturday, October 31, 2020, 10:04:48 AM EDT, David Olean 
>>  wrote:
>> 
>> 
>> Hello Alan
>> 
>> That was my antenna design. It has a teflon coax 1/2 wave balun that
>> kills RF on the shield side of the coax, but there is not much you can
>> do about near field energy getting picked up by the outside of the coax
>> due to radiation.  It is best to tape the coax down snugly along the
>> boom and masting etc.  Still, it does not hurt to add more RF chokes to
>> any antenna! It is pretty easy for RF energy to get impressed on the
>> outside of the coax in any typical installation.  The balun at the
>> antenna only keeps the energy from the coax center conductor from going
>> to the outside of the coax at the feedpoint.
>> 
>> The way I check for decoupling effectiveness is to match the antenna
>> really well, and then run your hand along the outside of the feedline
>> near the feed. While looking at the screen of a network analyzer, you
>> can see little perturbations in the return loss 20 or 30 dB down if
>> there is RF leaking to the outside of the feedline. This is a
>> qualitative test and you can estimate the bandwidth of the decoupling
>> network. You will see larger return loss change amounts away from the
>> resonant frequency of the decoupling element.  This won't apply to
>> ferrites, as they can be broadband, but with a quarter wave choke, or
>> similar, you can definitely see the effect.
>> 
>> 73
>> 
>> Dave K1WHS
>> 
>> On 10/31/2020 5:39 AM, N3ALN wrote:
>> 
>> > Hum, I was getting this HI CUR error only with my Directive Systems 6 Meter
>> > antenna (DS50-5) that has a 1:1 SWR I hope they know antenna design? Maybe
>> > not? The toroids fixed my issue. I just love how some of the forum or so
>> > judgmental, it is a only a freaking hobby, chill.
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> > --
>> > Sent from: http://elecraft.365791.n2.nabble.com/
>> > __
>> > Elecraft mailing list
>> > Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft
>> > Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm
>> > Post: mailto:Elecraft@mailman.qth.net  
>> > >
>> >
>> > This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net 
>> > Pl

Re: [Elecraft] HI CUR on 40

[David Olean]

Hi Mike,

I would put the ferrite at the end of the coax before it goes into the 
rig if there were rf coming down the coax. Common mode energy can and 
will get on the outside of the coax. I am not an expert on this, but I 
would expect that any problem that would cause a transmitter to 
misbehave would  involve strong levels most likely encountered near the 
antenna where the fields could be high.   Of all the folks that have 
used that 5 element six meter yagi, (me included) No one has ever had a 
stray RF problem. Running the coax perpendicular to the elements and 
tied down to the boom is all that is needed to keep things quiet.  I am 
at a loss to explain any other outcome.


I suppose there could be a fault in the balun area, but I would think 
that the SWR would climb well above 1:1 in that case.


Dave K1WHS

On 10/31/2020 11:13 AM, M Cresap wrote:

Dave

So where is the optimum place to place the ferrites for this antenna 
if you have a problem like Alan described?


Does the near field extend roughly to half the stacking distance of 
that antenna (i.e. 6 feet or so), making that the best place for the 
ferrites?


Does a mostly vertical coax passing through the near field of a 
horizontally polarized antenna (i.e. an antenna side mounted to a 
tower) need ferrites?


Do you need to decouple ALL of the rest of your coaxes and control 
lines at the lower near field edge of that antenna (or at some other 
point)? I have heard that argument (decouple everything) made to 
improve performance of inverted L antennas on 160 meters located near 
a tower.


73, Mike, W3IP

On Saturday, October 31, 2020, 10:04:48 AM EDT, David Olean 
 wrote:



Hello Alan

That was my antenna design. It has a teflon coax 1/2 wave balun that
kills RF on the shield side of the coax, but there is not much you can
do about near field energy getting picked up by the outside of the coax
due to radiation.  It is best to tape the coax down snugly along the
boom and masting etc.  Still, it does not hurt to add more RF chokes to
any antenna! It is pretty easy for RF energy to get impressed on the
outside of the coax in any typical installation.  The balun at the
antenna only keeps the energy from the coax center conductor from going
to the outside of the coax at the feedpoint.

The way I check for decoupling effectiveness is to match the antenna
really well, and then run your hand along the outside of the feedline
near the feed. While looking at the screen of a network analyzer, you
can see little perturbations in the return loss 20 or 30 dB down if
there is RF leaking to the outside of the feedline. This is a
qualitative test and you can estimate the bandwidth of the decoupling
network. You will see larger return loss change amounts away from the
resonant frequency of the decoupling element.  This won't apply to
ferrites, as they can be broadband, but with a quarter wave choke, or
similar, you can definitely see the effect.

73

Dave K1WHS

On 10/31/2020 5:39 AM, N3ALN wrote:

> Hum, I was getting this HI CUR error only with my Directive Systems 
6 Meter
> antenna (DS50-5) that has a 1:1 SWR I hope they know antenna design? 
Maybe

> not? The toroids fixed my issue. I just love how some of the forum or so
> judgmental, it is a only a freaking hobby, chill.
>
>
>
> --
> Sent from: http://elecraft.365791.n2.nabble.com/
> __
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Re: [Elecraft] HI CUR on 40

[Jim Brown]

On 10/31/2020 2:39 AM, N3ALN wrote:

I just love how some of the forum or so
judgmental, it is a only a freaking hobby, chill.


NOT judgemental, but an attempt by those of us who understand how stuff 
actually works to share that with others (the several thousand hams who 
read this and other email reflectors) so that false ideas and solutions 
are less likely to be accepted and propagated.


Anyone who doesn't want to learn is welcome to use their delete key on 
my posts.


73, Jim K9YC
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Re: [Elecraft] HI CUR on 40

[M Cresap via Elecraft]

 Dave
So where is the optimum place to place the ferrites for this antenna if you 
have a problem like Alan described? 

Does the near field extend roughly to half the stacking distance of that 
antenna (i.e. 6 feet or so), making that the best place for the ferrites? 

Does a mostly vertical coax passing through the near field of a horizontally 
polarized antenna (i.e. an antenna side mounted to a tower) need ferrites?

Do you need to decouple ALL of the rest of your coaxes and control lines at the 
lower near field edge of that antenna (or at some other point)? I have heard 
that argument (decouple everything) made to improve performance of inverted L 
antennas on 160 meters located near a tower.

73, Mike, W3IP

On Saturday, October 31, 2020, 10:04:48 AM EDT, David Olean 
 wrote:  
 
 Hello Alan

That was my antenna design. It has a teflon coax 1/2 wave balun that 
kills RF on the shield side of the coax, but there is not much you can 
do about near field energy getting picked up by the outside of the coax 
due to radiation.  It is best to tape the coax down snugly along the 
boom and masting etc.  Still, it does not hurt to add more RF chokes to 
any antenna! It is pretty easy for RF energy to get impressed on the 
outside of the coax in any typical installation.  The balun at the 
antenna only keeps the energy from the coax center conductor from going 
to the outside of the coax at the feedpoint.

The way I check for decoupling effectiveness is to match the antenna 
really well, and then run your hand along the outside of the feedline 
near the feed. While looking at the screen of a network analyzer, you 
can see little perturbations in the return loss 20 or 30 dB down if 
there is RF leaking to the outside of the feedline. This is a 
qualitative test and you can estimate the bandwidth of the decoupling 
network. You will see larger return loss change amounts away from the 
resonant frequency of the decoupling element.  This won't apply to 
ferrites, as they can be broadband, but with a quarter wave choke, or 
similar, you can definitely see the effect.

73

Dave K1WHS

On 10/31/2020 5:39 AM, N3ALN wrote:

> Hum, I was getting this HI CUR error only with my Directive Systems 6 Meter
> antenna (DS50-5) that has a 1:1 SWR I hope they know antenna design? Maybe
> not? The toroids fixed my issue. I just love how some of the forum or so
> judgmental, it is a only a freaking hobby, chill.
>
>
>
> --
> Sent from: http://elecraft.365791.n2.nabble.com/
> __
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Re: [Elecraft] HI CUR on 40

[David Olean]

Hello Alan

That was my antenna design. It has a teflon coax 1/2 wave balun that 
kills RF on the shield side of the coax, but there is not much you can 
do about near field energy getting picked up by the outside of the coax 
due to radiation.  It is best to tape the coax down snugly along the 
boom and masting etc.  Still, it does not hurt to add more RF chokes to 
any antenna! It is pretty easy for RF energy to get impressed on the 
outside of the coax in any typical installation.  The balun at the 
antenna only keeps the energy from the coax center conductor from going 
to the outside of the coax at the feedpoint.


The way I check for decoupling effectiveness is to match the antenna 
really well, and then run your hand along the outside of the feedline 
near the feed. While looking at the screen of a network analyzer, you 
can see little perturbations in the return loss 20 or 30 dB down if 
there is RF leaking to the outside of the feedline. This is a 
qualitative test and you can estimate the bandwidth of the decoupling 
network. You will see larger return loss change amounts away from the 
resonant frequency of the decoupling element.  This won't apply to 
ferrites, as they can be broadband, but with a quarter wave choke, or 
similar, you can definitely see the effect.


73

Dave K1WHS

On 10/31/2020 5:39 AM, N3ALN wrote:


Hum, I was getting this HI CUR error only with my Directive Systems 6 Meter
antenna (DS50-5) that has a 1:1 SWR I hope they know antenna design? Maybe
not? The toroids fixed my issue. I just love how some of the forum or so
judgmental, it is a only a freaking hobby, chill.



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Re: [Elecraft] HI CUR on 40

[N3ALN]

Hum, I was getting this HI CUR error only with my Directive Systems 6 Meter
antenna (DS50-5) that has a 1:1 SWR I hope they know antenna design? Maybe
not? The toroids fixed my issue. I just love how some of the forum or so
judgmental, it is a only a freaking hobby, chill. 



--
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Re: [Elecraft] HI CUR on 40

[Bert]

It's really sad to see how some companies prey on people who don't have 
the knowledge or the experience.

This is only one example!
Bert VE3NR


On 2020-10-30 13:31, Jim Brown wrote:

On 10/30/2020 3:43 AM, N3ALN wrote:
HI, I get this kit from Palomore for the K3 and I got another for my 
Yaesu
Quadra VL-1000. Take a good look at their website for what you will 
need.


https://palomar-engineers.com/ferrite-products/ferrite-cores/Elecraft-Transceiver-RFI-Kits-c46846169 





Total BS. They're trying to sell you stuff. NONE of this is necessary. 
What IS critical is antenna design, how they are fed, simple bonding, 
and the use of chokes at the feedpoint of each antenna.


For bonding, study http://k9yc.com/GroundingAndAudio.pdf

For chokes, study http://k9yc.com/2018Cookbook.pdf

For antennas, study the ARRL Handbook and Antenna Book.

Note that I'm not selling anything. :)

73, Jim K9YC


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Re: [Elecraft] HI CUR on 40

[Jim Brown]

On 10/30/2020 3:43 AM, N3ALN wrote:

HI, I get this kit from Palomore for the K3 and I got another for my Yaesu
Quadra VL-1000. Take a good look at their website for what you will need.

https://palomar-engineers.com/ferrite-products/ferrite-cores/Elecraft-Transceiver-RFI-Kits-c46846169



Total BS. They're trying to sell you stuff. NONE of this is necessary. 
What IS critical is antenna design, how they are fed, simple bonding, 
and the use of chokes at the feedpoint of each antenna.


For bonding, study http://k9yc.com/GroundingAndAudio.pdf

For chokes, study http://k9yc.com/2018Cookbook.pdf

For antennas, study the ARRL Handbook and Antenna Book.

Note that I'm not selling anything. :)

73, Jim K9YC


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Re: [Elecraft] HI CUR on 40

[Jim Rhodes]

Ferrites are probably not the answer here. Problem showed up with no
changes in configuration, and problem happens with a dummy load. Plus I
have ferrites in most of those locations already. This only happens on 40
meters and happens both with antenna connected and when dummy load
connected.

On Fri, Oct 30, 2020 at 5:43 AM N3ALN  wrote:

> HI, I get this kit from Palomore for the K3 and I got another for my Yaesu
> Quadra VL-1000. Take a good look at their website for what you will need.
>
>
> https://palomar-engineers.com/ferrite-products/ferrite-cores/Elecraft-Transceiver-RFI-Kits-c46846169
>
>
>
> --
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Re: [Elecraft] HI CUR on 40

[N3ALN]

HI, I get this kit from Palomore for the K3 and I got another for my Yaesu
Quadra VL-1000. Take a good look at their website for what you will need. 

https://palomar-engineers.com/ferrite-products/ferrite-cores/Elecraft-Transceiver-RFI-Kits-c46846169



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Re: [Elecraft] HI CUR on 40

[William Ellis via Elecraft]

Which tortoise did get and from whom?

73

Bill, WB9CAC

Sent from my iPhone

> On Oct 30, 2020, at 2:19 AM, N3ALN  wrote:
> 
> I was getting this HI CUR message to and it was driving me CRAZY! I called
> Elecraft and I was going to send my K3 back to them and then I saw a few
> YouTube videos and I installed a TON of toroids on the K3 and Amp and every
> wire in my shack and no more HI CUR message. Best of luck!
> 
> 
> 
> --
> Sent from: http://elecraft.365791.n2.nabble.com/
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Re: [Elecraft] HI CUR on 40

[N3ALN]

I was getting this HI CUR message to and it was driving me CRAZY! I called
Elecraft and I was going to send my K3 back to them and then I saw a few
YouTube videos and I installed a TON of toroids on the K3 and Amp and every
wire in my shack and no more HI CUR message. Best of luck!



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