Re: [Elecraft] K3 Filter question - SSB
Down at WP2Z for CQWW SSB Test we sometimes on 20M opened up the bandwidth to 2.4KHZ. Even with strong adjacent signals (as always the case on 20M) we could keep our run rate higher than with narrower bandwidth. It was just easier to copy calls even with all that adjacent QRM. 73, N2TK, Tony -Original Message- From: elecraft-boun...@mailman.qth.net [mailto:elecraft-boun...@mailman.qth.net] On Behalf Of Bill W4ZV Sent: Thursday, November 10, 2011 2:21 PM To: elecraft@mailman.qth.net Subject: Re: [Elecraft] K3 Filter question - SSB Barry N1EU wrote: Bill W4ZV wrote: 1. It *WILL* keep your AGC from pumping if there's another strong station within the 1.8 kHz passband. However, do you really think you could copy a weak signal while a S9+30 interfering signal is inside your 1.8k bandwidth? I don't think so. With any typical SSB filter bandwidth, AGC pumping is not a practical issue (it IS a big deal for CW however). Bill, I'm confused by that first sentence. How can a signal within the passband NOT pump the AGC? Normally when AGC pumping is discussed, it's a negative reference to an adjacent signal that's outside of the passband. Barry N1EU You're correct Barry. I meant to say just outside your passband. However, given that most SSB signals generate 3rd garbage (spurs, phase noise, etc) in the area of -35 dBc, an S9+30 signal just outside your 1.8k passband will easily obliterate a weak signal inside the passband. I found my ears to be the best tool for copying weak signals in the presence of strong adjacent splatter. For whatever reason they heard better using the stock 5-pole 2.7k set to a DSP BW of 2.0-2.1k than the 8-pole 1.8k set to actuate at DSP = 1.9k. I tried many times to use the 1.8k but simply just found the 2.7k worked better for me. Of course that's just my experience which wouldn't necessarily apply to everyone. 73, Bill -- View this message in context: http://elecraft.365791.n2.nabble.com/K3-Filter-question-SSB-tp6981339p698291 2.html Sent from the Elecraft mailing list archive at Nabble.com. __ Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:Elecraft@mailman.qth.net This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html __ Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:Elecraft@mailman.qth.net This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html
Re: [Elecraft] K3 Filter question - SSB
Ian White GM3SEK wrote: Unlike a 1.8kHz DSP filter with a 2.5kHz roofing filter, the 1.8kHz crystal filter also avoids artefacts caused by pumping of the hardware AGC loop by strong signals in the gaps between the wider and the narrower passband. The suggestion is that a 1.8Khz roofing filter will avoid HAGC pumping if the shoulder of an s9+25dB signal is present in the 350hz gap (2500-1800/2) that would have been spanned by the 2.5Khz filter. This is true but I'd suggest that if the s9+25dB shoulder is within 350hz, there's going to be plenty of that adjacent signal spilling over into your dsp passband that's going to pump your dsp AGC. So at best you will get slight improvement with the narrower filter but I wonder if it would ever make a difference in copy ability. A narrow filter just isn't buying you that much in ssb. Barry N1EU -- View this message in context: http://elecraft.365791.n2.nabble.com/K3-Filter-question-SSB-tp6981339p6984984.html Sent from the Elecraft mailing list archive at Nabble.com. __ Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:Elecraft@mailman.qth.net This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html
Re: [Elecraft] K3 Filter question - SSB
Go the 1.8KHz filter bruce, Forget the 2.1. 73 de Jeff Cochrane - VK4BOF East Innisfail QLD, Australia K3 #4257, P3#1629, KPA-500 #161 - Original Message - From: Bruce Meier To: elecraft@mailman.qth.net Sent: Thursday, November 10, 2011 9:29 PM Subject: [Elecraft] K3 Filter question - SSB As I operate much more CW than SSB I need some advice and opinions from the SSB contesters before adding additional filters for my K3s. Currently I only have the stock 2.7Khz filters in both K3s (main and sub rx) for SSB. I have 400hz and 250hz for CW. If I wanted to add an additional roofing filter for SSB contesting, would I add a 1.8Khz or would I add the 2.1Khz. 73, Bruce - N1LN __ Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:Elecraft@mailman.qth.net This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html __ Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:Elecraft@mailman.qth.net This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html
Re: [Elecraft] K3 Filter question - SSB
Bruce this is from a similar question on the Yahoo Groups K3 list: -- In elecraft...@yahoogroups.com, Hector Padron ad4c2006@... wrote: The 1.8 roofer today with so much band noise and fool ops close to your freq disrespecting the spectrum, its a must.This 8 poles filter together with the DSP makes brick rx easy to work dx or contesting.The trick to recover the lost audio quality when using it is to move counterclockwise the shift control down to 1.2 and inteligibility is back. This is very misleading and I must strongly disagree. I preface this by saying I made ~2500 QSOs on 10m single band in the CQ WW (high-claimed USA SOSB/10 score) and was never able to effectively use the 1.8k filter even though I tried in vain several times. Here's what a 1.8k will and will not do: 1. It *WILL* keep your AGC from pumping if there's another strong station within the 1.8 kHz passband. However, do you really think you could copy a weak signal while a S9+30 interfering signal is inside your 1.8k bandwidth? I don't think so. With any typical SSB filter bandwidth, AGC pumping is not a practical issue (it IS a big deal for CW however). 2. It *WILL *NOT* keep splatter from adjacent signals out of your passband. If an interfering signal is 5 kHz wide and partially falls within your passband, NO filter can remove it. Splatter is a real signal which NO filter (XTAL or DSP) can remove. 3. It *WILL* require very careful tuning for intelligibility. With callers that are off frequency by only 100 Hz, you'll miss off-frequency callers the first time which will slow your run rate. I had one caller even 500 Hz below my run frequency and I'm certain I would never have heard him if I was using the 1.8k. The most effective use of a 1.8k is probably for copying an extremely weak DX signal in white noise (not strong splatter or QRM). By tuning VERY carefully, you may slightly reduce the noise floor by reducing the noise bandwidth (potential reduction of 1.8k BW versus 2.1k BW is 10*[log (1.8/2.1)] = -0.67 dB). I really doubt many of us can detect a 0.67 dB improvement in signal/noise. The 1.8k is mainly a DXing tool...not a contesting tool. It cannot magically overcome the basic laws of physics. 73, Bill W4ZV -- View this message in context: http://elecraft.365791.n2.nabble.com/K3-Filter-question-SSB-tp6981339p6981505.html Sent from the Elecraft mailing list archive at Nabble.com. __ Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:Elecraft@mailman.qth.net This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html
Re: [Elecraft] K3 Filter question - SSB
Bill W4ZV wrote: 3. It *WILL* require very careful tuning for intelligibility. With callers that are off frequency by only 100 Hz, you'll miss off-frequency callers the first time which will slow your run rate. I had one caller even 500 Hz below my run frequency and I'm certain I would never have heard him if I was using the 1.8k. Just to qualify what I mean by high run rates: -- Q S O R a t e S u m m a r y - Hour 160 80 40 20 15 10Rate TotalPct 1200 0 0 0 0 01731732269.1 1300 0 0 0 0 0186186412 16.6 1400 0 0 0 0 0200200612 24.6 1500 0 0 0 0 0163163775 31.2 1600 0 0 0 0 0112112887 35.7 1200 0 0 0 0 0128128 1481 59.6 1300 0 0 0 0 0155155 1636 65.8 1400 0 0 0 0 0144144 1780 71.6 1500 0 0 0 0 0163163 1943 78.2 1600 0 0 0 0 0128128 2071 83.3 1700 0 0 0 0 0138138 2209 88.9 The best 60 minute rate was 217/hour from 1349 to 1448 The best 30 minute rate was 228/hour from 1358 to 1427 The best 10 minute rate was 246/hour from 1418 to 1427 The best 1 minute rates were: 6 QSOs/minute7 times. 5 QSOs/minute 32 times. 4 QSOs/minute 122 times. 3 QSOs/minute 238 times. 2 QSOs/minute 328 times. 1 QSOs/minute 425 times. The 1.8k is a nice tool when working a weak DX station who is running the pileup. It is very poor if you're the one who is running and attempting to work callers at high rates (i.e. getting the call correctly the first time without repeats). I'll be selling my 1.8k in favor of a 2.1k after my recent experience. 73, Bill -- View this message in context: http://elecraft.365791.n2.nabble.com/K3-Filter-question-SSB-tp6981339p6981677.html Sent from the Elecraft mailing list archive at Nabble.com. __ Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:Elecraft@mailman.qth.net This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html
Re: [Elecraft] K3 Filter question - SSB
The 1.8 is where I would go. Inrad also sells a 1.5 which a number of people swear by for really nasty SSB contests. Mike W0MU J6M CQ WW DX CW Contest 2011 J6/W0MU November 21 - December 1 2011 W0MU-1 CC Cluster w0mu.net On 11/10/2011 4:29 AM, Bruce Meier wrote: As I operate much more CW than SSB I need some advice and opinions from the SSB contesters before adding additional filters for my K3s. Currently I only have the stock 2.7Khz filters in both K3s (main and sub rx) for SSB. I have 400hz and 250hz for CW. If I wanted to add an additional roofing filter for SSB contesting, would I add a 1.8Khz or would I add the 2.1Khz. 73, Bruce - N1LN __ Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:Elecraft@mailman.qth.net This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html __ Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:Elecraft@mailman.qth.net This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html
Re: [Elecraft] K3 Filter question - SSB
I would not go any tighter than 1.8 KHz. I have a pair of the 1.5 KHz filters that I would swap for 1.8s. 73, ... Joe, W4TV On 11/10/2011 10:11 AM, W0MU Mike Fatchett wrote: The 1.8 is where I would go. Inrad also sells a 1.5 which a number of people swear by for really nasty SSB contests. Mike W0MU J6M CQ WW DX CW Contest 2011 J6/W0MU November 21 - December 1 2011 W0MU-1 CC Cluster w0mu.net On 11/10/2011 4:29 AM, Bruce Meier wrote: As I operate much more CW than SSB I need some advice and opinions from the SSB contesters before adding additional filters for my K3s. Currently I only have the stock 2.7Khz filters in both K3s (main and sub rx) for SSB. I have 400hz and 250hz for CW. If I wanted to add an additional roofing filter for SSB contesting, would I add a 1.8Khz or would I add the 2.1Khz. 73, Bruce - N1LN __ Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:Elecraft@mailman.qth.net This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html
Re: [Elecraft] K3 Filter question - SSB
Bill W4ZV wrote: 1. It *WILL* keep your AGC from pumping if there's another strong station within the 1.8 kHz passband. However, do you really think you could copy a weak signal while a S9+30 interfering signal is inside your 1.8k bandwidth? I don't think so. With any typical SSB filter bandwidth, AGC pumping is not a practical issue (it IS a big deal for CW however). Bill, I'm confused by that first sentence. How can a signal within the passband NOT pump the AGC? Normally when AGC pumping is discussed, it's a negative reference to an adjacent signal that's outside of the passband. Barry N1EU -- View this message in context: http://elecraft.365791.n2.nabble.com/K3-Filter-question-SSB-tp6981339p6982046.html Sent from the Elecraft mailing list archive at Nabble.com. __ Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:Elecraft@mailman.qth.net This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html
Re: [Elecraft] K3 Filter question - SSB
I also have a pair of the 1.5 KHz filters, and while I find them to be desirable under certain DXing situations, I rarely use them in a contest. In a contest you need quick intelligibility and filters as narrow as 1.5 KHz don't necessarily give you that. I have a pretty good ear, but lots of human voices have enough energy in different parts of the audio spectrum that I find it sometimes necessary to either shift to a wider filter or change the shift on the 1.5 KHz filter (I typically use 1.1 KHz for the center with that filter) in order to copy the other guy's callsign or exchange. Plus, as W4ZV pointed out, there is so much atrocious splatter from crummy rigs or ignorantly adjusted rigs during a major contest that it is truly rare to find such a narrow filter actually being helpful. I also would trade my 1.5 KHz filters for a pair of 1.8 KHz filters in a heartbeat. 73, Dave AB7E On 11/10/2011 8:27 AM, Joe Subich, W4TV wrote: I would not go any tighter than 1.8 KHz. I have a pair of the 1.5 KHz filters that I would swap for 1.8s. 73, ... Joe, W4TV On 11/10/2011 10:11 AM, W0MU Mike Fatchett wrote: The 1.8 is where I would go. Inrad also sells a 1.5 which a number of people swear by for really nasty SSB contests. Mike W0MU J6M CQ WW DX CW Contest 2011 J6/W0MU November 21 - December 1 2011 W0MU-1 CC Cluster w0mu.net On 11/10/2011 4:29 AM, Bruce Meier wrote: As I operate much more CW than SSB I need some advice and opinions from the SSB contesters before adding additional filters for my K3s. Currently I only have the stock 2.7Khz filters in both K3s (main and sub rx) for SSB. I have 400hz and 250hz for CW. If I wanted to add an additional roofing filter for SSB contesting, would I add a 1.8Khz or would I add the 2.1Khz. 73, Bruce - N1LN __ Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:Elecraft@mailman.qth.net This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html __ Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:Elecraft@mailman.qth.net This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html
Re: [Elecraft] K3 Filter question - SSB
On 11/10/2011 8:34 AM, David Gilbert wrote: there is so much atrocious splatter from crummy rigs or ignorantly adjusted rigs during a major contest YES, YES, YES. that it is truly rare to find such a narrow filter actually being helpful. I also would trade my 1.5 KHz filters for a pair of 1.8 KHz filters in a heartbeat. I strongly agree. I have 1.8 kHz filters in my K3s, and find that I rarely use them during a contest for the reasons that W4ZV has articulated. Paraphrasing from another world, it's the TRASH, stupid! 73, Jim K9YC __ Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:Elecraft@mailman.qth.net This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html
Re: [Elecraft] K3 Filter question - SSB
Barry N1EU wrote: Bill W4ZV wrote: 1. It *WILL* keep your AGC from pumping if there's another strong station within the 1.8 kHz passband. However, do you really think you could copy a weak signal while a S9+30 interfering signal is inside your 1.8k bandwidth? I don't think so. With any typical SSB filter bandwidth, AGC pumping is not a practical issue (it IS a big deal for CW however). Bill, I'm confused by that first sentence. How can a signal within the passband NOT pump the AGC? Normally when AGC pumping is discussed, it's a negative reference to an adjacent signal that's outside of the passband. Barry N1EU You're correct Barry. I meant to say just outside your passband. However, given that most SSB signals generate 3rd garbage (spurs, phase noise, etc) in the area of -35 dBc, an S9+30 signal just outside your 1.8k passband will easily obliterate a weak signal inside the passband. I found my ears to be the best tool for copying weak signals in the presence of strong adjacent splatter. For whatever reason they heard better using the stock 5-pole 2.7k set to a DSP BW of 2.0-2.1k than the 8-pole 1.8k set to actuate at DSP = 1.9k. I tried many times to use the 1.8k but simply just found the 2.7k worked better for me. Of course that's just my experience which wouldn't necessarily apply to everyone. 73, Bill -- View this message in context: http://elecraft.365791.n2.nabble.com/K3-Filter-question-SSB-tp6981339p6982912.html Sent from the Elecraft mailing list archive at Nabble.com. __ Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:Elecraft@mailman.qth.net This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html
Re: [Elecraft] K3 Filter question - SSB
I've had exactly the same experience. If the offending QRM is outside the passband of the filter, the narrower filter setting helps. However, If the offending QRM is heavily inside the passband (i.e., splatter), it seems that the additional intelligibility gain by capturing more of the desired station's audio bandwidth can often more than offset the additional interference you get from using a wider bandwidth. A lot depends upon the desired station's voice characteristics, but I've played with this quite a bit and the results can be surprising. Splatter is the enemy of us all, except of course for the idiots who do it intentionally to give themselves elbow room. One of these days I'm going to start posting spectral screenshots of significant offenders on my web site. 73, Dave AB7E On 11/10/2011 12:21 PM, Bill W4ZV wrote: I found my ears to be the best tool for copying weak signals in the presence of strong adjacent splatter. For whatever reason they heard better using the stock 5-pole 2.7k set to a DSP BW of 2.0-2.1k than the 8-pole 1.8k set to actuate at DSP = 1.9k. I tried many times to use the 1.8k but simply just found the 2.7k worked better for me. Of course that's just my experience which wouldn't necessarily apply to everyone. 73, Bill __ Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:Elecraft@mailman.qth.net This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html
Re: [Elecraft] K3 Filter question - SSB
Bill W4ZV wrote: However, given that most SSB signals generate 3rd garbage (spurs, phase noise, etc) in the area of -35 dBc, an S9+30 signal just outside your 1.8k passband will easily obliterate a weak signal inside the passband. I agree. Although I routinely use 1.8Khz roofing filters in ssb contests, I doubt they help at all and are probably a waste of money. What does help to copy a weaker signal in the presence of splatter is to turn AGC off. Barry N1EU -- View this message in context: http://elecraft.365791.n2.nabble.com/K3-Filter-question-SSB-tp6981339p6983028.html Sent from the Elecraft mailing list archive at Nabble.com. __ Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:Elecraft@mailman.qth.net This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html
Re: [Elecraft] K3 Filter question - SSB
happens outside of contests as well I can get alongside of a SSB signal and if it is clean have no problem but the guys that feel increasing there bandwidth for a better/pleasant sounding signal creep me out,,, the K3 is the first rcv I can say this about if the signal next door is clean regardless of strength it causes no problems looking forward to the KX3 Bob K3DJC On Thu, 10 Nov 2011 10:58:46 -0800 Jim Brown j...@audiosystemsgroup.com writes: On 11/10/2011 8:34 AM, David Gilbert wrote: there is so much atrocious splatter from crummy rigs or ignorantly adjusted rigs during a major contest YES, YES, YES. that it is truly rare to find such a narrow filter actually being helpful. I also would trade my 1.5 KHz filters for a pair of 1.8 KHz filters in a heartbeat. I strongly agree. I have 1.8 kHz filters in my K3s, and find that I rarely use them during a contest for the reasons that W4ZV has articulated. Paraphrasing from another world, it's the TRASH, stupid! 73, Jim K9YC __ Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:Elecraft@mailman.qth.net This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html America#39;s #1 Skin Cream Cure Wrinkles Immediately for Just $5 http://thirdpartyoffers.juno.com/TGL3141/4ebc2c4258d6875f0bm03vuc __ Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:Elecraft@mailman.qth.net This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html
Re: [Elecraft] K3 Filter question - SSB
I'm glad this came up because it is an aspect of filtering that seldom is addressed. Many folks seem to think that you can arbitrarily close down the bandwidth of a receiver to eliminate QRM and improve intelligibility. 1.8 kHz is deemed better than 2.1 kHz, and 1.5 kHz is deemed better than both. But at some point intelligibility itself suffers because you start to eliminate the signal you're trying to copy in the first place. I for one suffer from a type of listener's fatigue when forced to copy SSB signals in anything less than about 2.2 kHz or so. Others folks suffer from hearing loss and need to hear as much of the voice frequencies as possible. 1.8 kHz just doesn't work for many of these folks. If you're okay with such narrow bandwidths, more power to you, but you can't make blanket statements about them being equally effective for everybody. As Bill, Dave, and Barry alluded to, the ear-brain filter is the most effective of all, and it would do us all good to exercise it more often. The more you use it, the better you get at it. Bill W4ZV wrote: 3. It *WILL* require very careful tuning for intelligibility. __ Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:Elecraft@mailman.qth.net This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html
Re: [Elecraft] K3 Filter question - SSB
Interesting to me is position today that 2.1 kHz is narrow. For many decades, a 2.1 kHz filter was normal, and sometimes only SSB filter. Heathkit SB-101 etc 350 - 2450 (center 1400) Collins KWM-2A etc 400 - 2500 (center 1450) Sometime during the 90s, or so, the standard seemed to move to 2.4 kHz and up. What happened? Because of my early experiences with a SB-101, I decided that the Heath SSB BW settings were for me. Therefore I have a 2.1 kHz roofing filter installed and set the BW to 350 - 2450 and stored into NORM1. Which leads into a K3 issue. I believe that it would be a service to all of us users if the K3 manual had a set of optimal center frequencies for some of the pseudo standard settings optimized by those before us at Heathkit, Collins, and others. And it would be nice if the NORM button was programmable. I understand that there are the NORM1 and NORM2 settings, but for me, simple NORM is a wasted SSB button as I never use a 100 - 2900 Hz BW. And it would be nice if there was a default SSB center for each of the filters in Filter configuration. Tapping XFIL would not only move to the next filter, but also set to it's optimal SSB filter center frequency. John, KN5L __ Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:Elecraft@mailman.qth.net This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html
Re: [Elecraft] K3 Filter question - SSB
On 11/10/2011 3:33 PM, John Oppenheimer wrote: I use a 1200 Hz center frequency with my 1800 Hz roofing filter. It gives roughly the same passband as my ancient FT-101E with a cascaded pair of Yaesu filters, one in the normal receive line and the second in the speech clipper. Dunc, W5DC Which leads into a K3 issue. I believe that it would be a service to all of us users if the K3 manual had a set of optimal center frequencies for some of the pseudo standard settings optimized by those before us at Heathkit, Collins, and others. And it would be nice if the NORM button was programmable. I understand that there are the NORM1 and NORM2 settings, but for me, simple NORM is a wasted SSB button as I never use a 100 - 2900 Hz BW. And it would be nice if there was a default SSB center for each of the filters in Filter configuration. Tapping XFIL would not only move to the next filter, but also set to it's optimal SSB filter center frequency. John, KN5L __ Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:Elecraft@mailman.qth.net This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html __ Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:Elecraft@mailman.qth.net This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html
Re: [Elecraft] K3 Filter question - SSB
Al Lorona wrote: 1.8 kHz is deemed better than 2.1 kHz, and 1.5 kHz is deemed better than both. But at some point intelligibility itself suffers because you start to eliminate the signal you're trying to copy in the first place. I for one suffer from a type of listener's fatigue when forced to copy SSB signals in anything less than about 2.2 kHz or so. Others folks suffer from hearing loss and need to hear as much of the voice frequencies as possible. 1.8 kHz just doesn't work for many of these folks. Here's some more individual data. Although my hearing cuts off sharply at about 2.5kHz, I love the 1.8kHz crystal filter for heavy QRM. That Inrad filter was originally purchased for the 'narrow SSB' slot of my old FT-1000MP, and I'm so glad that I kept it for the K3. The 1.8kHz filter also works very well for my wife and other guest operators who don't have hearing loss. In our typical contest QRM conditions (running W/VE with the whole of Continental Europe right behind us) the narrower filter helps to eliminate the high-pitched splatter which we find the most tiring. Unlike a 1.8kHz DSP filter with a 2.5kHz roofing filter, the 1.8kHz crystal filter also avoids artefacts caused by pumping of the hardware AGC loop by strong signals in the gaps between the wider and the narrower passband. The 1.8kHz filter does require careful initial setting of the center frequency to obtain the best possible intelligibility; but those settings will then require very little further adjustment. In other words, they make a very effective working compromise to maximize the QSO rate. The 1.8kHz crystal filter is switched in at a DSP setting of 1.9kHz to avoid excessive narrowing of the passband. I would certainly agree that 1.5kHz is too narrow, because almost every voice would then require its own critical tuning. If you're okay with such narrow bandwidths, more power to you, but you can't make blanket statements about them being equally effective for everybody. But neither can anyone else make blanket statements about them being INeffective. The fairest that anyone can say is, If you don't like the 1.8kHz DSP setting, then don't even think about buying the crystal filter. But if you do like 1.8kHz DSP, you might like the crystal filter a lot. -- 73 from Ian GM3SEK http://www.ifwtech.co.uk/g3sek __ Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:Elecraft@mailman.qth.net This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html
Re: [Elecraft] K3 Filter question - SSB
Jim Brown wrote: On 11/10/2011 8:34 AM, David Gilbert wrote: there is so much atrocious splatter from crummy rigs or ignorantly adjusted rigs during a major contest YES, YES, YES. that it is truly rare to find such a narrow filter actually being helpful. I also would trade my 1.5 KHz filters for a pair of 1.8 KHz filters in a heartbeat. I strongly agree. I have 1.8 kHz filters in my K3s, and find that I rarely use them during a contest for the reasons that W4ZV has articulated. Paraphrasing from another world, it's the TRASH, stupid! Forgive me, Jim, but claiming that it's only about one single thing will always lead to bad advice. One-line slogans don't even work in politics, and even less so in engineering. Whatever the problem, it's ALWAYS about finding the optimum working balance between several different aspects. In this particular case we are trying maximize the QSO rate by finding the best possible balance between intelligibility, minimum use of front panel controls, longer-term operator fatigue and probably several other factors that will be of genuine importance to some people, at least some of the time. -- 73 from Ian GM3SEK http://www.ifwtech.co.uk/g3sek __ Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:Elecraft@mailman.qth.net This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html
Re: [Elecraft] K3 Filter question - SSB
Folks - We are now hitting the single subject posting limit. Please wrap this thread up ASAP. 73, Eric list moderator --- www.elecraft.com __ Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:Elecraft@mailman.qth.net This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html
