Re: [Elecraft] K3 power oddity

[Leroy Buller]

Thanks for all the information.   Yesterday, I did some research with
levels and Don was spot on.  I no longer have the issue when I drive the
audio to the 4th tick with the 5th flashing.   Full power out with no ramp
up.  Thanks all for setting me straight.

Lee. K0WA
.

On Jul 18, 2016 11:08 AM, "Ron D'Eau Claire" <r...@cobi.biz> wrote:

> An e-mail exchange with the engineers this morning clarified the ALC
> question. Let me correct my statement:
>
> ALC to an external amplifier starts at 8 bars.
>
> ALC internal to the K3/K3S starts at 5 bars. 5 to 7 bars indicates internal
> ALC active; a combination of AF leveling bu the DSP and drive reduction by
> the MCU.
>
> So, for fully linear (DATA A) operation stay below 5 bars as Don said (5th
> bar barely flashing). For normal voice operation 5 to 7 bars is typical.
>
> 73, Ron AC7AC
>
> -Original Message-
> From: Ron D'Eau Claire [mailto:r...@cobi.biz]
> Sent: Sunday, July 17, 2016 2:40 PM
> To: 'Leroy Buller'; 'donw...@embarqmail.com'
> Cc: 'elecraft@mailman.qth.net'
> Subject: RE: [Elecraft] K3 power oddity
>
> Lee - that is true with many radios. The K3/K3S was designed so that ALC
> action starts at 8 bars. More info is in the K3S Owner's manual under "Mic
> Gain and Compression Settings" on page 30.
>
> 73, Ron AC7AC
>
> -Original Message-
> From: Elecraft [mailto:elecraft-boun...@mailman.qth.net] On Behalf Of
> Leroy
> Buller
> Sent: Sunday, July 17, 2016 1:04 PM
> To: donw...@embarqmail.com
> Cc: elecraft@mailman.qth.net
> Subject: Re: [Elecraft] K3 power oddity
>
> Don...
>
> Thanks for the information. I will check that out.  I was told a long time
> ago by that elusive "someone" to keep the K3 linear that the ALC meter
> should just flicker.  Obviously, that was bogus advice.  I  will check this
> out yet today.
>
> Thanks
>
> Lee
>
>
> On Sun, Jul 17, 2016 at 8:19 AM, Don Wilhelm <donw...@embarqmail.com>
> wrote:
>
> > Lee (and others)
> >
> > It is normal for the power control circuits to be reset after a band
> > change.  That prevents overshoot if you are driving an amplifier.
> > Normally the power will come up to the requested power level in a
> > couple dot times on CW, or several syllables when operating voice.
> >
> > If the problem is on voice or data, make sure you are driving the
> > audio sufficiently.  If you are not driving the K3 audio hard enough,
> > power control will be "flaky".
> >
> > For Voice: With the compression set to zero, you should produce 5 to 7
> > bars on the ALC meter.  After adjusting the mic gain for that
> > indication, increase the compression as you choose - normally I would
> > suggest compression of less than 10dB.
> >
> > For RTTY, if you are using FSK D mode, the power control should be
> > automatic, but if you are using AFSK A (or other soundcard data
> > modes), then do check your audio drive - of course compression should
> > be set to zero, but the audio drive should drive the ALC meter to 4
> > bars solid with the 5th bar flashing.
> >
> > Note that the K3 controls power differently than other transceivers.
> > Ignore the advice on the internet to show no ALC and adjust the power
> > with the audio level.
> > With the K3 (and K3S, KX3, KX2), the "ALC" meter is a combination "VU"
> > meter and ALC meter.  The 1st 4 bars are there to help you adjust the
> > audio level.  The onset of ALC is indicated by the 5th bar.  So 4 bars
> > solid and 5th bar flickering is the "no ALC" point for the K3.
> > In data modes, adjust the power with the Power knob, not the audio level.
> >
> > 73,
> > Don W3FPR
> >
> > On 7/17/2016 8:38 AM, Leroy Buller wrote:
> >
> >> Operated RTTY NAQP this weekend.   When changing bands, I noticed my
> power
> >> would drop to 40 watts or so.  After several transmissions, it would
> rise
> >> to 100 watts.  I don't think this is normal.   All antennas are matched.
> >> Comments?
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >
> __
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Re: [Elecraft] K3 power oddity

[Ron D'Eau Claire]

An e-mail exchange with the engineers this morning clarified the ALC
question. Let me correct my statement:

ALC to an external amplifier starts at 8 bars. 

ALC internal to the K3/K3S starts at 5 bars. 5 to 7 bars indicates internal
ALC active; a combination of AF leveling bu the DSP and drive reduction by
the MCU. 

So, for fully linear (DATA A) operation stay below 5 bars as Don said (5th
bar barely flashing). For normal voice operation 5 to 7 bars is typical. 

73, Ron AC7AC

-Original Message-
From: Ron D'Eau Claire [mailto:r...@cobi.biz] 
Sent: Sunday, July 17, 2016 2:40 PM
To: 'Leroy Buller'; 'donw...@embarqmail.com'
Cc: 'elecraft@mailman.qth.net'
Subject: RE: [Elecraft] K3 power oddity

Lee - that is true with many radios. The K3/K3S was designed so that ALC
action starts at 8 bars. More info is in the K3S Owner's manual under "Mic
Gain and Compression Settings" on page 30. 

73, Ron AC7AC

-Original Message-
From: Elecraft [mailto:elecraft-boun...@mailman.qth.net] On Behalf Of Leroy
Buller
Sent: Sunday, July 17, 2016 1:04 PM
To: donw...@embarqmail.com
Cc: elecraft@mailman.qth.net
Subject: Re: [Elecraft] K3 power oddity

Don...

Thanks for the information. I will check that out.  I was told a long time
ago by that elusive "someone" to keep the K3 linear that the ALC meter
should just flicker.  Obviously, that was bogus advice.  I  will check this
out yet today.

Thanks

Lee


On Sun, Jul 17, 2016 at 8:19 AM, Don Wilhelm <donw...@embarqmail.com> wrote:

> Lee (and others)
>
> It is normal for the power control circuits to be reset after a band 
> change.  That prevents overshoot if you are driving an amplifier.
> Normally the power will come up to the requested power level in a 
> couple dot times on CW, or several syllables when operating voice.
>
> If the problem is on voice or data, make sure you are driving the 
> audio sufficiently.  If you are not driving the K3 audio hard enough, 
> power control will be "flaky".
>
> For Voice: With the compression set to zero, you should produce 5 to 7 
> bars on the ALC meter.  After adjusting the mic gain for that 
> indication, increase the compression as you choose - normally I would 
> suggest compression of less than 10dB.
>
> For RTTY, if you are using FSK D mode, the power control should be 
> automatic, but if you are using AFSK A (or other soundcard data 
> modes), then do check your audio drive - of course compression should 
> be set to zero, but the audio drive should drive the ALC meter to 4 
> bars solid with the 5th bar flashing.
>
> Note that the K3 controls power differently than other transceivers.
> Ignore the advice on the internet to show no ALC and adjust the power 
> with the audio level.
> With the K3 (and K3S, KX3, KX2), the "ALC" meter is a combination "VU"
> meter and ALC meter.  The 1st 4 bars are there to help you adjust the 
> audio level.  The onset of ALC is indicated by the 5th bar.  So 4 bars 
> solid and 5th bar flickering is the "no ALC" point for the K3.
> In data modes, adjust the power with the Power knob, not the audio level.
>
> 73,
> Don W3FPR
>
> On 7/17/2016 8:38 AM, Leroy Buller wrote:
>
>> Operated RTTY NAQP this weekend.   When changing bands, I noticed my
power
>> would drop to 40 watts or so.  After several transmissions, it would rise
>> to 100 watts.  I don't think this is normal.   All antennas are matched.
>> Comments?
>>
>>
>>
>
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Re: [Elecraft] K3 power oddity

[Bob Nielsen]

Running at reduced power for RTTY is probably a good idea.  My TS-570 
died in the middle of a RTTY contact at 100 W. and as bad as that was, 
I'd hate to think of it happening to a K3!


Bob, N7XY

On 7/17/16 7:24 AM, George Kidder wrote:

Thanks Don for the explanation of what is going on with the "ALC" meter.

I have two suggestions relative to using my K3/100.  The first is a 
suggestion I made by email some years ago, with no reply.  When 
changing from "Spkr + Phones" to "Phones" ( that is, spkr off) I need 
differing audio levels due to the different efficiencies of the 
speakers and phones.  So I crank up the gain on when using phones.  So 
far so good.  BUT; the monitor level remains constant, and changing 
that is a different process.  I'm sure that for some, having the two 
audio levels independent is a good thing - for me, it wold be nice to 
link them.  Could a menu option be constructed which would allow for 
linking monitor and receiver audio?


My second problem is that when running CW or SSB, I like to use full 
power  (100 W).  On digital modes or FM, it seems prudent to limit the 
rig to 50 W.  The power level is currently saved "per band" - cold it 
be saved "per mode" as well?  This would save a lot of "oops" time.


Or maybe these functions are already available and I just haven't 
found them!


George, W3HBM. Bar Harbor, ME


On 7/17/2016 9:19 AM, Don Wilhelm wrote:

Lee (and others)

It is normal for the power control circuits to be reset after a band 
change.  That prevents overshoot if you are driving an amplifier.
Normally the power will come up to the requested power level in a 
couple dot times on CW, or several syllables when operating voice.


If the problem is on voice or data, make sure you are driving the 
audio sufficiently.  If you are not driving the K3 audio hard enough, 
power control will be "flaky".


For Voice: With the compression set to zero, you should produce 5 to 
7 bars on the ALC meter.  After adjusting the mic gain for that 
indication, increase the compression as you choose - normally I would 
suggest compression of less than 10dB.


For RTTY, if you are using FSK D mode, the power control should be 
automatic, but if you are using AFSK A (or other soundcard data 
modes), then do check your audio drive - of course compression should 
be set to zero, but the audio drive should drive the ALC meter to 4 
bars solid with the 5th bar flashing.


Note that the K3 controls power differently than other transceivers.  
Ignore the advice on the internet to show no ALC and adjust the power 
with the audio level.
With the K3 (and K3S, KX3, KX2), the "ALC" meter is a combination 
"VU" meter and ALC meter.  The 1st 4 bars are there to help you 
adjust the audio level.  The onset of ALC is indicated by the 5th 
bar.  So 4 bars solid and 5th bar flickering is the "no ALC" point 
for the K3.
In data modes, adjust the power with the Power knob, not the audio 
level.


73,
Don W3FPR

On 7/17/2016 8:38 AM, Leroy Buller wrote:
Operated RTTY NAQP this weekend.   When changing bands, I noticed my 
power
would drop to 40 watts or so.  After several transmissions, it would 
rise
to 100 watts.  I don't think this is normal.   All antennas are 
matched.

Comments?




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Re: [Elecraft] K3 power oddity

[Ron D'Eau Claire]

Lee - that is true with many radios. The K3/K3S was designed so that ALC
action starts at 8 bars. More info is in the K3S Owner's manual under "Mic
Gain and Compression Settings" on page 30. 

73, Ron AC7AC

-Original Message-
From: Elecraft [mailto:elecraft-boun...@mailman.qth.net] On Behalf Of Leroy
Buller
Sent: Sunday, July 17, 2016 1:04 PM
To: donw...@embarqmail.com
Cc: elecraft@mailman.qth.net
Subject: Re: [Elecraft] K3 power oddity

Don...

Thanks for the information. I will check that out.  I was told a long time
ago by that elusive "someone" to keep the K3 linear that the ALC meter
should just flicker.  Obviously, that was bogus advice.  I  will check this
out yet today.

Thanks

Lee


On Sun, Jul 17, 2016 at 8:19 AM, Don Wilhelm <donw...@embarqmail.com> wrote:

> Lee (and others)
>
> It is normal for the power control circuits to be reset after a band 
> change.  That prevents overshoot if you are driving an amplifier.
> Normally the power will come up to the requested power level in a 
> couple dot times on CW, or several syllables when operating voice.
>
> If the problem is on voice or data, make sure you are driving the 
> audio sufficiently.  If you are not driving the K3 audio hard enough, 
> power control will be "flaky".
>
> For Voice: With the compression set to zero, you should produce 5 to 7 
> bars on the ALC meter.  After adjusting the mic gain for that 
> indication, increase the compression as you choose - normally I would 
> suggest compression of less than 10dB.
>
> For RTTY, if you are using FSK D mode, the power control should be 
> automatic, but if you are using AFSK A (or other soundcard data 
> modes), then do check your audio drive - of course compression should 
> be set to zero, but the audio drive should drive the ALC meter to 4 
> bars solid with the 5th bar flashing.
>
> Note that the K3 controls power differently than other transceivers.
> Ignore the advice on the internet to show no ALC and adjust the power 
> with the audio level.
> With the K3 (and K3S, KX3, KX2), the "ALC" meter is a combination "VU"
> meter and ALC meter.  The 1st 4 bars are there to help you adjust the 
> audio level.  The onset of ALC is indicated by the 5th bar.  So 4 bars 
> solid and 5th bar flickering is the "no ALC" point for the K3.
> In data modes, adjust the power with the Power knob, not the audio level.
>
> 73,
> Don W3FPR
>
> On 7/17/2016 8:38 AM, Leroy Buller wrote:
>
>> Operated RTTY NAQP this weekend.   When changing bands, I noticed my
power
>> would drop to 40 watts or so.  After several transmissions, it would rise
>> to 100 watts.  I don't think this is normal.   All antennas are matched.
>> Comments?
>>
>>
>>
>
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Re: [Elecraft] K3 power oddity

[Leroy Buller]

Don...

Thanks for the information. I will check that out.  I was told a long time
ago by that elusive "someone" to keep the K3 linear that the ALC meter
should just flicker.  Obviously, that was bogus advice.  I  will check this
out yet today.

Thanks

Lee


On Sun, Jul 17, 2016 at 8:19 AM, Don Wilhelm  wrote:

> Lee (and others)
>
> It is normal for the power control circuits to be reset after a band
> change.  That prevents overshoot if you are driving an amplifier.
> Normally the power will come up to the requested power level in a couple
> dot times on CW, or several syllables when operating voice.
>
> If the problem is on voice or data, make sure you are driving the audio
> sufficiently.  If you are not driving the K3 audio hard enough, power
> control will be "flaky".
>
> For Voice: With the compression set to zero, you should produce 5 to 7
> bars on the ALC meter.  After adjusting the mic gain for that indication,
> increase the compression as you choose - normally I would suggest
> compression of less than 10dB.
>
> For RTTY, if you are using FSK D mode, the power control should be
> automatic, but if you are using AFSK A (or other soundcard data modes),
> then do check your audio drive - of course compression should be set to
> zero, but the audio drive should drive the ALC meter to 4 bars solid with
> the 5th bar flashing.
>
> Note that the K3 controls power differently than other transceivers.
> Ignore the advice on the internet to show no ALC and adjust the power with
> the audio level.
> With the K3 (and K3S, KX3, KX2), the "ALC" meter is a combination "VU"
> meter and ALC meter.  The 1st 4 bars are there to help you adjust the audio
> level.  The onset of ALC is indicated by the 5th bar.  So 4 bars solid and
> 5th bar flickering is the "no ALC" point for the K3.
> In data modes, adjust the power with the Power knob, not the audio level.
>
> 73,
> Don W3FPR
>
> On 7/17/2016 8:38 AM, Leroy Buller wrote:
>
>> Operated RTTY NAQP this weekend.   When changing bands, I noticed my power
>> would drop to 40 watts or so.  After several transmissions, it would rise
>> to 100 watts.  I don't think this is normal.   All antennas are matched.
>> Comments?
>>
>>
>>
>
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Re: [Elecraft] K3 power oddity

[George Kidder]

Thanks Don for the explanation of what is going on with the "ALC" meter.

I have two suggestions relative to using my K3/100.  The first is a 
suggestion I made by email some years ago, with no reply.  When changing 
from "Spkr + Phones" to "Phones" ( that is, spkr off) I need differing 
audio levels due to the different efficiencies of the speakers and 
phones.  So I crank up the gain on when using phones.  So far so good.  
BUT; the monitor level remains constant, and changing that is a 
different process.  I'm sure that for some, having the two audio levels 
independent is a good thing - for me, it wold be nice to link them.  
Could a menu option be constructed which would allow for linking monitor 
and receiver audio?


My second problem is that when running CW or SSB, I like to use full 
power  (100 W).  On digital modes or FM, it seems prudent to limit the 
rig to 50 W.  The power level is currently saved "per band" - cold it be 
saved "per mode" as well?  This would save a lot of "oops" time.


Or maybe these functions are already available and I just haven't found 
them!


George, W3HBM. Bar Harbor, ME


On 7/17/2016 9:19 AM, Don Wilhelm wrote:

Lee (and others)

It is normal for the power control circuits to be reset after a band 
change.  That prevents overshoot if you are driving an amplifier.
Normally the power will come up to the requested power level in a 
couple dot times on CW, or several syllables when operating voice.


If the problem is on voice or data, make sure you are driving the 
audio sufficiently.  If you are not driving the K3 audio hard enough, 
power control will be "flaky".


For Voice: With the compression set to zero, you should produce 5 to 7 
bars on the ALC meter.  After adjusting the mic gain for that 
indication, increase the compression as you choose - normally I would 
suggest compression of less than 10dB.


For RTTY, if you are using FSK D mode, the power control should be 
automatic, but if you are using AFSK A (or other soundcard data 
modes), then do check your audio drive - of course compression should 
be set to zero, but the audio drive should drive the ALC meter to 4 
bars solid with the 5th bar flashing.


Note that the K3 controls power differently than other transceivers.  
Ignore the advice on the internet to show no ALC and adjust the power 
with the audio level.
With the K3 (and K3S, KX3, KX2), the "ALC" meter is a combination "VU" 
meter and ALC meter.  The 1st 4 bars are there to help you adjust the 
audio level.  The onset of ALC is indicated by the 5th bar.  So 4 bars 
solid and 5th bar flickering is the "no ALC" point for the K3.

In data modes, adjust the power with the Power knob, not the audio level.

73,
Don W3FPR

On 7/17/2016 8:38 AM, Leroy Buller wrote:
Operated RTTY NAQP this weekend.   When changing bands, I noticed my 
power
would drop to 40 watts or so.  After several transmissions, it would 
rise

to 100 watts.  I don't think this is normal.   All antennas are matched.
Comments?




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Re: [Elecraft] K3 power oddity

[Mike Murray]

Thanks Don! I suspected as much, but a little disconcerting first time
around.

Mike - W0AG

On Sun, Jul 17, 2016 at 8:19 AM, Don Wilhelm  wrote:

> Lee (and others)
>
> It is normal for the power control circuits to be reset after a band
> change.  That prevents overshoot if you are driving an amplifier.
> Normally the power will come up to the requested power level in a couple
> dot times on CW, or several syllables when operating voice.
>
>>
>>
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Re: [Elecraft] K3 power oddity

[Don Wilhelm]

Lee (and others)

It is normal for the power control circuits to be reset after a band 
change.  That prevents overshoot if you are driving an amplifier.
Normally the power will come up to the requested power level in a couple 
dot times on CW, or several syllables when operating voice.


If the problem is on voice or data, make sure you are driving the audio 
sufficiently.  If you are not driving the K3 audio hard enough, power 
control will be "flaky".


For Voice: With the compression set to zero, you should produce 5 to 7 
bars on the ALC meter.  After adjusting the mic gain for that 
indication, increase the compression as you choose - normally I would 
suggest compression of less than 10dB.


For RTTY, if you are using FSK D mode, the power control should be 
automatic, but if you are using AFSK A (or other soundcard data modes), 
then do check your audio drive - of course compression should be set to 
zero, but the audio drive should drive the ALC meter to 4 bars solid 
with the 5th bar flashing.


Note that the K3 controls power differently than other transceivers.  
Ignore the advice on the internet to show no ALC and adjust the power 
with the audio level.
With the K3 (and K3S, KX3, KX2), the "ALC" meter is a combination "VU" 
meter and ALC meter.  The 1st 4 bars are there to help you adjust the 
audio level.  The onset of ALC is indicated by the 5th bar.  So 4 bars 
solid and 5th bar flickering is the "no ALC" point for the K3.

In data modes, adjust the power with the Power knob, not the audio level.

73,
Don W3FPR

On 7/17/2016 8:38 AM, Leroy Buller wrote:

Operated RTTY NAQP this weekend.   When changing bands, I noticed my power
would drop to 40 watts or so.  After several transmissions, it would rise
to 100 watts.  I don't think this is normal.   All antennas are matched.
Comments?




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Re: [Elecraft] K3 power oddity

[David Anderson via Elecraft]

Have you got enough audio level going in to drive the ALC meter up to 4.5 bars?

73 from David GM4JJJ

> On 17 Jul 2016, at 13:38, Leroy Buller  wrote:
> 
> Operated RTTY NAQP this weekend.   When changing bands, I noticed my power
> would drop to 40 watts or so.  After several transmissions, it would rise
> to 100 watts.  I don't think this is normal.   All antennas are matched.
> Comments?
> 
> Lee
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Re: [Elecraft] K3 power oddity

[Mike Murray]

I noticed the same thing with my K3.  I tried reconfiguring the sound setup
(I'm using AFSK) thinking that I had screwed something up, but still did
the same thing.

Mike W0AG

On Jul 17, 2016 7:39 AM, "Leroy Buller"  wrote:

> Operated RTTY NAQP this weekend.   When changing bands, I noticed my power
> would drop to 40 watts or so.  After several transmissions, it would rise
> to 100 watts.  I don't think this is normal.   All antennas are matched.
> Comments?
>
> Lee
> __
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> Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html
> Message delivered to w0agm...@gmail.com
>
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