Re: [EM] New tryIRV free IRV survey website online
Downright curious how we skip over what is presented between our eyes!!! I recommended paying more attention to Condorcet Internet Voting Service. Less than a dozen lines after reading my reference to CIVS below, Robert wished for exactly that! 0n Jul 7, 2011, at 9:50 PM, robert bristow-johnson wrote: On Jul 7, 2011, at 7:26 PM, Dave Ketchum wrote: Ouch! i missed it. . As Kristofer just wrote, Condorcet is a much better method than IRV for what you are promising - Interesting that Condorcet offers (more than) the same voter ranking capabilities as IRV, but does much better counting. i think the major argument for Condorcet is that it is the most consistent with the binary election of any pair. isn't that sorta what Pareto efficiency is about? Can help that, while we find fault with IRV, voters can be learning via IRV how they would interface with Condorcet. we all agree how an election between only two candidates should be evaluated given equal weight between voters (that is the true meaning of "One person, one vote" and i'm still appalled that this slogan was used by the IRV-repeal people). it should be no different if a third candidate is added unless that third candidate beats both A and B. there is no justification for why this third candidate should reverse the preference of the electorate regarding A and B. if it's Condorcet compliant and if there is a Condorcet winner, then the outcome is no different than it would be if the CW runs against any of the other candidates. the electorate, when asked and given equal weight to voters, say that they prefer this candidate over every other candidate. . CIVS offers, available now, what you seem to be trying. Recommend you study this description of CIVS and consider what it offers: http://www.cs.cornell.edu/andru/civs.html Dave Ketchum On Jul 7, 2011, at 10:25 AM, Sand W wrote: I hope everyone is interested in a new online survey site intended to prove how much better IRV-enabled surveys are than traditional "one choice" or approval surveys. can you provide a ranked-choice survey that is Condorcet compliant rather than IRV? if your survey page has the ranked ballot that IRV uses, you can evaluate the survey by different methods. why not give the users a choice? some might pick Borda (cough, cough). hey, this would actually be useful information for academic study. make the tools available (like in the website that performs the surveys) and the choice of several election methods, including traditional vote-for-one/plurality, Approval, ranked-choice (whatever Condorcet, IRV, Borda, Bucklin), and Score voting. find out which ones are more preferred by users of the survey tools. Actually, studying their preferences for others, by users of such tools, may be a bit much. We need to talk to average voters, and to the politicians that are willing to help the voters a bit, SO LONG AS it does not hurt themselves too much. just an idea. -- r b-j r...@audioimagination.com Election-Methods mailing list - see http://electorama.com/em for list info
Re: [EM] New tryIRV free IRV survey website online
On Jul 7, 2011, at 7:26 PM, Dave Ketchum wrote: Ouch! i missed it. . As Kristofer just wrote, Condorcet is a much better method than IRV for what you are promising - Interesting that Condorcet offers (more than) the same voter ranking capabilities as IRV, but does much better counting. i think the major argument for Condorcet is that it is the most consistent with the binary election of any pair. isn't that sorta what Pareto efficiency is about? we all agree how an election between only two candidates should be evaluated given equal weight between voters (that is the true meaning of "One person, one vote" and i'm still appalled that this slogan was used by the IRV-repeal people). it should be no different if a third candidate is added unless that third candidate beats both A and B. there is no justification for why this third candidate should reverse the preference of the electorate regarding A and B. if it's Condorcet compliant and if there is a Condorcet winner, then the outcome is no different than it would be if the CW runs against any of the other candidates. the electorate, when asked and given equal weight to voters, say that they prefer this candidate over every other candidate. . CIVS offers, available now, what you seem to be trying. Recommend you study this description of CIVS and consider what it offers: http://www.cs.cornell.edu/andru/civs.html Dave Ketchum On Jul 7, 2011, at 10:25 AM, Sand W wrote: I hope everyone is interested in a new online survey site intended to prove how much better IRV-enabled surveys are than traditional "one choice" or approval surveys. can you provide a ranked-choice survey that is Condorcet compliant rather than IRV? if your survey page has the ranked ballot that IRV uses, you can evaluate the survey by different methods. why not give the users a choice? some might pick Borda (cough, cough). hey, this would actually be useful information for academic study. make the tools available (like in the website that performs the surveys) and the choice of several election methods, including traditional vote-for-one/plurality, Approval, ranked-choice (whatever Condorcet, IRV, Borda, Bucklin), and Score voting. find out which ones are more preferred by users of the survey tools. just an idea. -- r b-j r...@audioimagination.com "Imagination is more important than knowledge." Election-Methods mailing list - see http://electorama.com/em for list info
Re: [EM] New tryIRV free IRV survey website online
Ouch! . As Kristofer just wrote, Condorcet is a much better method than IRV for what you are promising - Interesting that Condorcet offers (more than) the same voter ranking capabilities as IRV, but does much better counting. . CIVS offers, available now, what you seem to be trying. Recommend you study this description of CIVS and consider what it offers: http://www.cs.cornell.edu/andru/civs.html Dave Ketchum On Jul 7, 2011, at 10:25 AM, Sand W wrote: I hope everyone is interested in a new online survey site intended to prove how much better IRV-enabled surveys are than traditional "one choice" or approval surveys. http://TryIRV.us is the current url, and we are still correcting it and adding features. It is based on Demochoice code. The goal is that people invited to vote in a survey will be more likely to vote in multiple surveys (created by different authors) than they do using http://Demochoice.org polls, so it will evolved into service for useful for taking IRV surveys of the general web- surfing public, and ranked voting will more rapidly catch on. We're doing a little web publicity this week so that it will already be going a little bit when the wider publicity starts next week, so it would be great if you can help it get started by checking every once in a while and voting the first new surveys created to motivate IRV newbies. By next week you will be able to easily embed hot links within the surveys, sot it will be easy to have a survey about "best ranked voting system" and link each survey choice to a site explaining each system. Thanks. Election-Methods mailing list - see http://electorama.com/em for list info
Re: [EM] New tryIRV free IRV survey website online
Sand W wrote: I hope everyone is interested in a new online survey site intended to prove how much better IRV-enabled surveys are than traditional "one choice" or approval surveys. http://TryIRV.us is the current url, and we are still correcting it and adding features. It is based on Demochoice code. I would suggest that you use a Condorcet method instead of IRV, or at least that, in your IRV code, consider a runoff between the bottom two in the elimination stage, and then eliminate the one voted below the other by the most voters. Doing so would go a long way in fixing the IRV problems exhibited in the 2009 Burlington election. With a name like TryIRV.us, tinkering with the method might not be practical, though. Election-Methods mailing list - see http://electorama.com/em for list info
[EM] New tryIRV free IRV survey website online
I hope everyone is interested in a new online survey site intended to prove how much better IRV-enabled surveys are than traditional "one choice" or approval surveys.http://TryIRV.us is the current url, and we are still correcting it and adding features. It is based on Demochoice code. The goal is that people invited to vote in a survey will be more likely to vote in multiple surveys (created by different authors) than they do using http://Demochoice.org polls, so it will evolved into service for useful for taking IRV surveys of the general web-surfing public, and ranked voting will more rapidly catch on. We're doing a little web publicity this week so that it will already be going a little bit when the wider publicity starts next week, so it would be great if you can help it get started by checking every once in a while and voting the first new surveys created to motivate IRV newbies. By next week you will be able to easily embed hot links within the surveys, sot it will be easy to have a survey about "best ranked voting system" and link each survey choice to a site explaining each system.Thanks. Election-Methods mailing list - see http://electorama.com/em for list info
