Re: [Elementary-dev-community] Basing elementary on latest and greatest pieces of software
I'm working on it, I'd like to have it deployed by 14.04 but no promises. On Wed, Jul 10, 2013 at 12:53 AM, Nikos Vasilakis nikos.a...@gmail.comwrote: Hey Cody, what do we need in order to get our own repo and automated build infrastructure? Is it a hardware issue? Cheers, Nikos On Tue, Jul 9, 2013 at 11:56 PM, Cody Garver c...@elementaryos.orgwrote: Debian builds are possible when we get our own repo and automated build infrastructure. Sent from my iPhone On Jul 9, 2013, at 10:42 PM, Manish Sinha manishsi...@ubuntu.com wrote: Hello everyone, I have thought, researched a lot before shooting this mail. It is a proposal to make elementary a great OS, even better than it is currently at the same time making sure the proposals are sane, achievable and realistic. Older packages when released - At the moment luna is based on precise. It is a good thing because Precise is LTS and supported for 5 years, but at the end of the day when luna is released, it is based on 1.5 years old snapshot of ubuntu plus some updates. Why not base next elementary on say debian testing or unstable. Maybe unstable is a bit too unstable, but testing should be fine. I am still not sure if GNOME would be vanilla or not, but atleast it won't be containing a lot of patches and radically different components than GNOME. This is just a suggestion. I would like to hear from people who maintain the archives and system architects. They would be knowing what issues can be faced in case elementary moves away from ubuntu or what can be even gained. - Manish -- Mailing list: https://launchpad.net/~elementary-dev-community Post to : elementary-dev-community@lists.launchpad.net Unsubscribe : https://launchpad.net/~elementary-dev-community More help : https://help.launchpad.net/ListHelp -- Mailing list: https://launchpad.net/~elementary-dev-community Post to : elementary-dev-community@lists.launchpad.net Unsubscribe : https://launchpad.net/~elementary-dev-community More help : https://help.launchpad.net/ListHelp -- Cody Garver -- Mailing list: https://launchpad.net/~elementary-dev-community Post to : elementary-dev-community@lists.launchpad.net Unsubscribe : https://launchpad.net/~elementary-dev-community More help : https://help.launchpad.net/ListHelp
[Elementary-dev-community] Mir Discussion with Jono
Hey everyone, So here’s the distilled conversation we had with Jono: 1. Canonical wants Mir to be used by more than just Ubuntu. More users tends to mean more developers which means a better product. Jono didn't say it directly, but I think it's obvious that their interest in us is mainly about bringing more attention/support to Mir (which is reasonable/logical). 2. With Mir, they’re building a focused display server that prioritizes a convergent cross-form-factor design. Jono referred to Mir as being thin and states that because Mir needs to run on a phone it has very strict performance requirements. 3. Canonical also has tools built around Mir that could enable us (and others) to easily “flash” our builds onto mobile devices using an Android/Mir base. This is probably the most unique/enticing part about using Mir. 4. Jono wants to reach out to Ubuntu flavors and derivatives to see how Mir affects them and how Ubuntu’s engineering team can help ease the transition to Mir. For 14.04, we theoretically could run Pantheon on XMir which means no meaningful change for us to be able to run with a Mir system compositor. Obviously there are pros and cons. The biggest con is that it is highly unlikely Canonical will put staff hours into make sure stuff like Gtk+ and Clutter work on Mir. This work is essential to elementary as it stands and blocks us from running natively on Mir. In the spirit of the above #3, Jono has assured us that if we're interested in doing the work to make our toolkit work with Mir that Canonical engineers would be available to answer any questions we may have. So we seemingly have these options moving forward: 1. Port everything to Qt (including Gala the rest of our shell, all our apps, etc) and use Mir. 2. Port Clutter/Gtk+/etc to Mir. 3. Port everything to Wayland (significantly less work than the former two options imo). 4. Do nothing and use either XMir or XWayland until those are deprecated at which point we need to port to one or the other. I think at this point, it's starting to look more and more like Wayland is going to be the path of least resistance for us. I can't imagine we have the development power to try and maintain Gtk+/Clutter/Mutter on Mir. But it may turn out that sometime between now and 14.04 some group decides to do this work and then we're back to a more difficult choice. All in all, the conversation leaves us with more talking points and more question than answers :p I think the only thing we know 100% (even if we do have some other opinions) is that X is dying. We need to make an effort to remove any x-specific code from our apps and our shell and to move away from any libraries that we know won’t exist in a post-X world (like BAMF and WNCK). I’ve created a blueprint where we can track our progress in ditching X: https://blueprints.launchpad.net/elementaryos/+spec/ditch-x Please make sure to file bugs against projects you know contain bits that rely on X and link them to this blueprint. The better we asses the situation, the easier it'll be to make the transition. Best Regards, Daniel Foré elementaryos.org -- Mailing list: https://launchpad.net/~elementary-dev-community Post to : elementary-dev-community@lists.launchpad.net Unsubscribe : https://launchpad.net/~elementary-dev-community More help : https://help.launchpad.net/ListHelp
Re: [Elementary-dev-community] Mir Discussion with Jono
On 10 July 2013 18:27, Daniel Foré dan...@elementaryos.org wrote: Hey everyone, So here’s the distilled conversation we had with Jono: [snip] Obviously there are pros and cons. The biggest con is that it is highly unlikely Canonical will put staff hours into make sure stuff like Gtk+ and Clutter work on Mir. This work is essential to elementary as it stands and blocks us from running natively on Mir. [snip] Did Jono explain why this is unlikely, or is that your speculation? Because it sounds contrary to the recent Mir interview. It also seems kind of weird that a desktop distribution would want to make such an enormous amount of applications second class citizens in this way. It seems unlikely that they'll add GTK+ as a language for Ubuntu SDK anytime soon, but that's a completely different thing and wouldn't affect Elementary in any case. I would certainly expect Canonical to add a GTK+ backend for Mir. Otherwise, they'll have close to no hope of making Mir a successful display server. More information about this would be very interesting read. Jo-Erlend Schinstad -- Mailing list: https://launchpad.net/~elementary-dev-community Post to : elementary-dev-community@lists.launchpad.net Unsubscribe : https://launchpad.net/~elementary-dev-community More help : https://help.launchpad.net/ListHelp
Re: [Elementary-dev-community] Mir Discussion with Jono
I'm a little out of the scene now, but i don't really think we should do everything canonical wants. Today they changed to Mir, tomorrow it can be anything else.. And elementary has to follow them. Also, i think that Ubuntu is no longer a good base distro for elementary to be based on. There are way more stable distros (Like Debian), that don't change that much in time and allow the Elementary developer team to work without the fear of having to modify and / or adapt all the hard work they had. Ubuntu is taking a major remodeling and i don't really think it will stop on Mir. I think we should really think this for Luna +1. PS: I really like Mir and all the thinks the Ubuntu developers are doing for the Linux community, taking it to the next level. But i think Elementary is still a relatively new project and has to have a stable base, or else, iterations of this distro will take even longer to launch than Luna. Cheers ;) A 10/07/2013, às 18:40, Conscious User escreveu: Developers from elementaryOS should not be the main force behind porting toolkits to display servers. This is either the responsibility of toolkit developers or display server developers. If anything, for the deeper technical knowledge this depends on. Reactions from the GNOME community indicate that they have no intention of supporting Mir, so this leaves Canonical as the only option. Historically, trusting Canonical with something that is not their main focus for Ubuntu's future results in adequate but unpolished at best, and long duration breakage at worst. Personally, I recommend establishing a strong communication with upstream GNOME and preparing the field to report bugs and needs involving Wayland. I also emphasize the need to either move away from Ubuntu or be prepared to become the GTK QA team that one can't really expect Ubuntu to be anymore. Perhaps maintaining PPAs for the entire stack. Em Qua, 2013-07-10 às 09:27 -0700, Daniel Foré escreveu: Hey everyone, So here’s the distilled conversation we had with Jono: 1. Canonical wants Mir to be used by more than just Ubuntu. More users tends to mean more developers which means a better product. Jono didn't say it directly, but I think it's obvious that their interest in us is mainly about bringing more attention/support to Mir (which is reasonable/logical). 2. With Mir, they’re building a focused display server that prioritizes a convergent cross-form-factor design. Jono referred to Mir as being thin and states that because Mir needs to run on a phone it has very strict performance requirements. 3. Canonical also has tools built around Mir that could enable us (and others) to easily “flash” our builds onto mobile devices using an Android/Mir base. This is probably the most unique/enticing part about using Mir. 4. Jono wants to reach out to Ubuntu flavors and derivatives to see how Mir affects them and how Ubuntu’s engineering team can help ease the transition to Mir. For 14.04, we theoretically could run Pantheon on XMir which means no meaningful change for us to be able to run with a Mir system compositor. Obviously there are pros and cons. The biggest con is that it is highly unlikely Canonical will put staff hours into make sure stuff like Gtk+ and Clutter work on Mir. This work is essential to elementary as it stands and blocks us from running natively on Mir. In the spirit of the above #3, Jono has assured us that if we're interested in doing the work to make our toolkit work with Mir that Canonical engineers would be available to answer any questions we may have. So we seemingly have these options moving forward: 1. Port everything to Qt (including Gala the rest of our shell, all our apps, etc) and use Mir. 2. Port Clutter/Gtk+/etc to Mir. 3. Port everything to Wayland (significantly less work than the former two options imo). 4. Do nothing and use either XMir or XWayland until those are deprecated at which point we need to port to one or the other. I think at this point, it's starting to look more and more like Wayland is going to be the path of least resistance for us. I can't imagine we have the development power to try and maintain Gtk +/Clutter/Mutter on Mir. But it may turn out that sometime between now and 14.04 some group decides to do this work and then we're back to a more difficult choice. All in all, the conversation leaves us with more talking points and more question than answers :p I think the only thing we know 100% (even if we do have some other opinions) is that X is dying. We need to make an effort to remove any x-specific code from our apps and our shell and to move away from any libraries that we know won’t exist in a post-X world (like BAMF and WNCK). I’ve created a blueprint where we can track our progress in ditching X: https://blueprints.launchpad.net/elementaryos/+spec/ditch-x Please make sure to
Re: [Elementary-dev-community] Basing elementary on latest and greatest pieces of software
Ah, sorry, I did not mean to press you, just ask as a way to identify were help is needed. On Wed, Jul 10, 2013 at 11:53 AM, Cody Garver c...@elementaryos.org wrote: I'm working on it, I'd like to have it deployed by 14.04 but no promises. On Wed, Jul 10, 2013 at 12:53 AM, Nikos Vasilakis nikos.a...@gmail.comwrote: Hey Cody, what do we need in order to get our own repo and automated build infrastructure? Is it a hardware issue? Cheers, Nikos On Tue, Jul 9, 2013 at 11:56 PM, Cody Garver c...@elementaryos.orgwrote: Debian builds are possible when we get our own repo and automated build infrastructure. Sent from my iPhone On Jul 9, 2013, at 10:42 PM, Manish Sinha manishsi...@ubuntu.com wrote: Hello everyone, I have thought, researched a lot before shooting this mail. It is a proposal to make elementary a great OS, even better than it is currently at the same time making sure the proposals are sane, achievable and realistic. Older packages when released - At the moment luna is based on precise. It is a good thing because Precise is LTS and supported for 5 years, but at the end of the day when luna is released, it is based on 1.5 years old snapshot of ubuntu plus some updates. Why not base next elementary on say debian testing or unstable. Maybe unstable is a bit too unstable, but testing should be fine. I am still not sure if GNOME would be vanilla or not, but atleast it won't be containing a lot of patches and radically different components than GNOME. This is just a suggestion. I would like to hear from people who maintain the archives and system architects. They would be knowing what issues can be faced in case elementary moves away from ubuntu or what can be even gained. - Manish -- Mailing list: https://launchpad.net/~elementary-dev-community Post to : elementary-dev-community@lists.launchpad.net Unsubscribe : https://launchpad.net/~elementary-dev-community More help : https://help.launchpad.net/ListHelp -- Mailing list: https://launchpad.net/~elementary-dev-community Post to : elementary-dev-community@lists.launchpad.net Unsubscribe : https://launchpad.net/~elementary-dev-community More help : https://help.launchpad.net/ListHelp -- Cody Garver -- Mailing list: https://launchpad.net/~elementary-dev-community Post to : elementary-dev-community@lists.launchpad.net Unsubscribe : https://launchpad.net/~elementary-dev-community More help : https://help.launchpad.net/ListHelp
Re: [Elementary-dev-community] Mir Discussion with Jono
Em Qua, 2013-07-10 às 21:25 +0200, Jo-Erlend Schinstad escreveu: It also seems kind of weird that a desktop distribution would want to make such an enormous amount of applications second class citizens in this way. They already did. With or without Mir support, The GNOME stack and Compiz are clearly second class citizens in Ubuntu now. For evidence, look no further than the schedule of the last UDSes and pretty much *all* communication from Canonical employees ever since Ubuntu Touch was announced. And just to be clear, because people got confused about this the last time I brought it up: I DO NOT MEAN THIS AS CRITICISM AGAINST CANONICAL, NOR I AM IMPLYING ANY SORT OF MALICE OR HOSTILITY FROM THEIR SIDE. *No* distro can devote the same amount of attention to all apps. KDE apps have always been second class citizens in Ubuntu, and that is perfectly fine. -- Mailing list: https://launchpad.net/~elementary-dev-community Post to : elementary-dev-community@lists.launchpad.net Unsubscribe : https://launchpad.net/~elementary-dev-community More help : https://help.launchpad.net/ListHelp
Re: [Elementary-dev-community] Mir Discussion with Jono
I can confirm that from speaking to Canonical employees and attending UDS that the tone has been for a long time that they will eventually stop supporting Gtk+ in favor of Qt At the current rate, 14.04 may be the last version of Ubuntu under which you can run Gtk+ apps unless the community wants to build Mir support for Gtk+. Canonical is building a suite of default apps in Qt and all their third-party dev documentation is now focused on Qt. This is happening. Ubuntu is for Qt. But like ConciousUser has stated, there is absolutely nothing wrong with that. That is 100% their choice to make and in my opinion, having a dedication to a single toolkit is a great choice. That's why elementary also has a dedication to a single toolkit and if we built a new display server I can tell you right now we'd have no intention of making Qt run on it. Best Regards, Daniel Foré El jul 10, 2013, a las 1:03 p.m., Conscious User consciousu...@gmail.com escribió: Em Qua, 2013-07-10 às 21:25 +0200, Jo-Erlend Schinstad escreveu: It also seems kind of weird that a desktop distribution would want to make such an enormous amount of applications second class citizens in this way. They already did. With or without Mir support, The GNOME stack and Compiz are clearly second class citizens in Ubuntu now. For evidence, look no further than the schedule of the last UDSes and pretty much *all* communication from Canonical employees ever since Ubuntu Touch was announced. And just to be clear, because people got confused about this the last time I brought it up: I DO NOT MEAN THIS AS CRITICISM AGAINST CANONICAL, NOR I AM IMPLYING ANY SORT OF MALICE OR HOSTILITY FROM THEIR SIDE. *No* distro can devote the same amount of attention to all apps. KDE apps have always been second class citizens in Ubuntu, and that is perfectly fine. -- Mailing list: https://launchpad.net/~elementary-dev-community Post to : elementary-dev-community@lists.launchpad.net Unsubscribe : https://launchpad.net/~elementary-dev-community More help : https://help.launchpad.net/ListHelp -- Mailing list: https://launchpad.net/~elementary-dev-community Post to : elementary-dev-community@lists.launchpad.net Unsubscribe : https://launchpad.net/~elementary-dev-community More help : https://help.launchpad.net/ListHelp
Re: [Elementary-dev-community] Basing elementary on latest and greatest pieces of software
what do we need in order to get our own repo and automated build infrastructure? Is it a hardware issue? A lot of things I'm afraid. Off the top of my head, the list is as follows: 1. hardware 2. pbuilder configuration (mostly done) 3. some piece of software to accept dput uploads (should exist, but not found yet) 4. some piece of software to create and maintain the repository (should exist, but not found yet) 5. lots of integration scripts to write and secondary systems to set up (mailer to report failed builds, etc) 6. some UI to be able to make sense of all that and manage the setup (probably doesn't exist) -- Sergey Shnatsel Davidoff OS architect @ elementary -- Mailing list: https://launchpad.net/~elementary-dev-community Post to : elementary-dev-community@lists.launchpad.net Unsubscribe : https://launchpad.net/~elementary-dev-community More help : https://help.launchpad.net/ListHelp
Re: [Elementary-dev-community] Mir Discussion with Jono
On Wed, Jul 10, 2013 at 1:45 PM, Daniel Foré dan...@elementaryos.org wrote: At the current rate, 14.04 may be the last version of Ubuntu under which you can run Gtk+ apps unless the community wants to build Mir support for Gtk+. I don't think I understand this properly. You mean to say that after 14.04 Ubuntu cannot run GTK+ apps as they will go pure Mir and Mir won't have GTK+ support? Is this true? What about all the apps written in GTK+? What will they be replaced with? - Manish -- Mailing list: https://launchpad.net/~elementary-dev-community Post to : elementary-dev-community@lists.launchpad.net Unsubscribe : https://launchpad.net/~elementary-dev-community More help : https://help.launchpad.net/ListHelp
Re: [Elementary-dev-community] Mir Discussion with Jono
On Wed, Jul 10, 2013 at 3:12 PM, Jono Bacon j...@ubuntu.com wrote: On Wed, Jul 10, 2013 at 3:01 PM, Manish Sinha manishsi...@ubuntu.comwrote: On Wed, Jul 10, 2013 at 1:45 PM, Daniel Foré dan...@elementaryos.org wrote: At the current rate, 14.04 may be the last version of Ubuntu under which you can run Gtk+ apps unless the community wants to build Mir support for Gtk+. I don't think I understand this properly. You mean to say that after 14.04 Ubuntu cannot run GTK+ apps as they will go pure Mir and Mir won't have GTK+ support? Is this true? What about all the apps written in GTK+? What will they be replaced with? I checked into this with the Mir team and the 14.04 plan is to run non-Qt apps that don't have a Mir backend as rootless X apps, so all GTK apps will continue to work. Currently Canonical is investing in building a Qt backend and providing help and guidance for those who want to build Mir backends for other toolkits. In fact, there is an active discussion underway on mir-devel as we speak about a GTK Mir backend ( https://lists.ubuntu.com/archives/mir-devel/2013-July/000275.html). So in a nutshell, there will be no regressions at all with regards to GTK apps in 14.04. Oops, sorry it turns out I had this wrong - for 14.04 we will continue to ship Unity 7 on XMir on Mir, which will obviously continue to run GTK apps. In 14.10 the GTK apps will be rootless, although if the community GTK Mir backend work continues to make improvements, we may well have native Mir GTK support by then. Jono -- Jono Bacon Ubuntu Community Manager www.ubuntu.com / www.jonobacon.org www.identi.ca/jonobacon www.twitter.com/jonobacon -- Mailing list: https://launchpad.net/~elementary-dev-community Post to : elementary-dev-community@lists.launchpad.net Unsubscribe : https://launchpad.net/~elementary-dev-community More help : https://help.launchpad.net/ListHelp
Re: [Elementary-dev-community] Mir Discussion with Jono
On Wed, Jul 10, 2013 at 1:45 PM, Daniel Foré dan...@elementaryos.orgwrote: I can confirm that from speaking to Canonical employees and attending UDS that the tone has been for a long time that they will eventually stop supporting Gtk+ in favor of Qt There has been quite some discussion in the past about focusing more on a single toolkit, and as Daniel says, overall we have focused on Qt and QML. It is the basis of our SDK, we are re-writing Unity in it (the convergence Unity), and it meets our needs well for the different devices we are building for. At the current rate, 14.04 may be the last version of Ubuntu under which you can run Gtk+ apps unless the community wants to build Mir support for Gtk+. See my previous message about the GTK support - GTK support will continue to work in Ubuntu, but will be rootless X support unless there is a GTK Mir backend. Some may wonder why Canonical is not investing in this backend...well, we are focusing our new development efforts on Qt/QML and we can still deliver our GTK apps via rootless X sessions. Canonical is building a suite of default apps in Qt and all their third-party dev documentation is now focused on Qt. This is happening. Ubuntu is for Qt. But like ConciousUser has stated, there is absolutely nothing wrong with that. That is 100% their choice to make and in my opinion, having a dedication to a single toolkit is a great choice. That's why elementary also has a dedication to a single toolkit and if we built a new display server I can tell you right now we'd have no intention of making Qt run on it. Agreed. Jono -- Jono Bacon Ubuntu Community Manager www.ubuntu.com / www.jonobacon.org www.identi.ca/jonobacon www.twitter.com/jonobacon -- Mailing list: https://launchpad.net/~elementary-dev-community Post to : elementary-dev-community@lists.launchpad.net Unsubscribe : https://launchpad.net/~elementary-dev-community More help : https://help.launchpad.net/ListHelp
Re: [Elementary-dev-community] Mir Discussion with Jono
Sorry, I might have made it more clear that was speculation. Best Regards, Daniel Foré El jul 10, 2013, a las 3:01 p.m., Manish Sinha manishsi...@ubuntu.com escribió: On Wed, Jul 10, 2013 at 1:45 PM, Daniel Foré dan...@elementaryos.org wrote: At the current rate, 14.04 may be the last version of Ubuntu under which you can run Gtk+ apps unless the community wants to build Mir support for Gtk+. I don't think I understand this properly. You mean to say that after 14.04 Ubuntu cannot run GTK+ apps as they will go pure Mir and Mir won't have GTK+ support? Is this true? What about all the apps written in GTK+? What will they be replaced with? - Manish -- Mailing list: https://launchpad.net/~elementary-dev-community Post to : elementary-dev-community@lists.launchpad.net Unsubscribe : https://launchpad.net/~elementary-dev-community More help : https://help.launchpad.net/ListHelp
Re: [Elementary-dev-community] Mir Discussion with Jono
On Wed, Jul 10, 2013 at 2:10 PM, cameron camerontnor...@gmail.com wrote: I can tell you right now we'd have no intention of making Qt run on it. You would probably have no expectation of making KDE run on it, though. It is an odd stance Canonical is taking. They want elementary OS (and other spins) to use Mir, but they put no effort into supporting the toolkits (and other needs) of these derivatives. To be clear: we want to provide as much help and guidance as possible to help all distros and upstreams explore Mir as a display server that may work well for them. Mir is going to ship in 13.10 as a well supported stable display server, and in 14.04 we will have it fully supported for five years. From the perspective of a derivative I think this is an attractive option for this foundational piece of the stack - it means that you folks don't have to worry about it. Canonical has limited engineering resources like any organization, and we don't have the resources to build Mir support for every toolkit out there. We would rather focus our efforts on making Mir rock solid and production ready for 13.10 and then also provide support and guidance for those who do want to build or integrate Mir support for their distro/upstream. This was why I wanted to reach out to the team, to see how we can help. Jono -- Jono Bacon Ubuntu Community Manager www.ubuntu.com / www.jonobacon.org www.identi.ca/jonobacon www.twitter.com/jonobacon -- Mailing list: https://launchpad.net/~elementary-dev-community Post to : elementary-dev-community@lists.launchpad.net Unsubscribe : https://launchpad.net/~elementary-dev-community More help : https://help.launchpad.net/ListHelp
Re: [Elementary-dev-community] Mir Discussion with Jono
See Jono's clarification :) There is absolutely no reason to believe that not supporting Gtk+ would doom Ubuntu to fail. Android and iOS launched just fine without supporting Windows or OS X apps. And in fact, this is not so different from our expectations either. A serious OS needs apps that are built specifically around it's platform. Cross platform apps suck. I would fully expect it to seem odd that someone would try to run GIMP on Ubuntu 16.04 just like it would be odd for someone to want to run Krita on Ubuntu now. Best Regards, Daniel Foré El jul 10, 2013, a las 2:53 p.m., Jo-Erlend Schinstad joerlend.schins...@gmail.com escribió: On 10 July 2013 22:45, Daniel Foré dan...@elementaryos.org wrote: I can confirm that from speaking to Canonical employees and attending UDS that the tone has been for a long time that they will eventually stop supporting Gtk+ in favor of Qt For Ubuntu SDK apps, that has been known for quite a while and there are good reasons for it. But that's something _very_ different from not supporting GTK+ on their display server, though it's obviously vice versa, purely technically speaking. That would effectively kill Mir right from the beginning and this seems a highly unlikely goal for any software company – to design your products to fail. At the current rate, 14.04 may be the last version of Ubuntu under which you can run Gtk+ apps unless the community wants to build Mir support for Gtk+. Canonical is building a suite of default apps in Qt and all their third-party dev documentation is now focused on Qt. This is happening. Ubuntu is for Qt. You seem to still be talking about Ubuntu SDK apps? Yes, on Touch, GTK+ is not supported and according to Michael Hall, this is primarily because of scaling GUIs to make applications look the same even if the resolution changes. You should of course still be _able_ to run GTK+ apps, but they'd look horrible because of lacking support from the SDK. But on the _desktop_? It makes absolutely no sense in removing all those applications because they themselves want to write in Qt. But like ConciousUser has stated, there is absolutely nothing wrong with that. That is 100% their choice to make and in my opinion, having a dedication to a single toolkit is a great choice. That's why elementary also has a dedication to a single toolkit and if we built a new display server I can tell you right now we'd have no intention of making Qt run on it. There are lots of things wrong with that, which is why I don't believe it. But let me get this straight; if X has to be replaced and nobody else writes a new display server for you, then Elementary OS is willing to remove software like GIMP, Evolution, Inkscape all all other great GTK+ applications? You wouldn't want to support Evolution for your business/corporate users – even if those represent your primary income? That, to me, seems like an amazingly bad idea. Perhaps you'd decide to port those applications to Qt instead? After all, you want your OS to be a success, right? Then you need to have good apps. I can't believe Canonical intends to do any of that, and I won't believe it until I see an official statement. The only other option I can see is to keep supporting XMir forever, which in time will mean supporting X.org alone. That would most likely be a lot harder than supporting a GTK+ backend. Right? Likewise, porting everything from GIMP to Evolution would also mean an insane amount of work. -- Mailing list: https://launchpad.net/~elementary-dev-community Post to : elementary-dev-community@lists.launchpad.net Unsubscribe : https://launchpad.net/~elementary-dev-community More help : https://help.launchpad.net/ListHelp
Re: [Elementary-dev-community] Mir Discussion with Jono
On 11 July 2013 00:28, Daniel Foré dan...@elementaryos.org wrote: See Jono's clarification :) There is absolutely no reason to believe that not supporting Gtk+ would doom Ubuntu to fail. Android and iOS launched just fine without supporting Windows or OS X apps. However, neither Android or Ios were designed to be Desktop operating systems. Ubuntu is. When you connect a big screen, keyboard and mouse to your phone, you're supposed to get exactly that. In order for _that_ to succeed, you really do need all the apps you can get. Removing all GTK applications from the desktop would seriously limit the chance of success. And in fact, this is not so different from our expectations either. A serious OS needs apps that are built specifically around it's platform. Cross platform apps suck. Then Elementary OS is planning on writing everything from office suits to movie editors because none of the current ones are specifically designed for Elementary? Good luck with that. Guess it'll take a while. I would fully expect it to seem odd that someone would try to run GIMP on Ubuntu 16.04 just like it would be odd for someone to want to run Krita on Ubuntu now. I don't think that's particularly odd at all, since it's possible now. Removing the _possibility_ of running Krita on Ubuntu, however, would be a seriously odd thing to do. Had to take a trip to #Ubuntu-mir on Freenode. I asked about this and Robert Carr replied: «We've always said that we were creating a GTK backend. but it's behind anything for the phone or the system compositor of course :)» _That_ makes sense. Robert Carr is one of the big names in Mir development. -- Mailing list: https://launchpad.net/~elementary-dev-community Post to : elementary-dev-community@lists.launchpad.net Unsubscribe : https://launchpad.net/~elementary-dev-community More help : https://help.launchpad.net/ListHelp
Re: [Elementary-dev-community] Mir Discussion with Jono
However, as Jono said, GTK+ apps will continue to function as rootless X apps anyway, so no one is removing any possibilites. On Wed, Jul 10, 2013 at 4:48 PM, Jo-Erlend Schinstad joerlend.schins...@ubuntu.com wrote: On 11 July 2013 00:28, Daniel Foré dan...@elementaryos.org wrote: See Jono's clarification :) There is absolutely no reason to believe that not supporting Gtk+ would doom Ubuntu to fail. Android and iOS launched just fine without supporting Windows or OS X apps. However, neither Android or Ios were designed to be Desktop operating systems. Ubuntu is. When you connect a big screen, keyboard and mouse to your phone, you're supposed to get exactly that. In order for _that_ to succeed, you really do need all the apps you can get. Removing all GTK applications from the desktop would seriously limit the chance of success. And in fact, this is not so different from our expectations either. A serious OS needs apps that are built specifically around it's platform. Cross platform apps suck. Then Elementary OS is planning on writing everything from office suits to movie editors because none of the current ones are specifically designed for Elementary? Good luck with that. Guess it'll take a while. I would fully expect it to seem odd that someone would try to run GIMP on Ubuntu 16.04 just like it would be odd for someone to want to run Krita on Ubuntu now. I don't think that's particularly odd at all, since it's possible now. Removing the _possibility_ of running Krita on Ubuntu, however, would be a seriously odd thing to do. Had to take a trip to #Ubuntu-mir on Freenode. I asked about this and Robert Carr replied: «We've always said that we were creating a GTK backend. but it's behind anything for the phone or the system compositor of course :)» _That_ makes sense. Robert Carr is one of the big names in Mir development. -- Mailing list: https://launchpad.net/~elementary-dev-community Post to : elementary-dev-community@lists.launchpad.net Unsubscribe : https://launchpad.net/~elementary-dev-community More help : https://help.launchpad.net/ListHelp -- Mailing list: https://launchpad.net/~elementary-dev-community Post to : elementary-dev-community@lists.launchpad.net Unsubscribe : https://launchpad.net/~elementary-dev-community More help : https://help.launchpad.net/ListHelp
