Re: [O] Re: Continuation of main section text after subsections ?
On Fri, Apr 1, 2011 at 01:34, Matt Lundin wrote: > Samuel Wales writes: > >> IIUC, OP wants to move stuff around more easily and not have improper >> body text folded. Improper in this case means belonging to the >> grandparent but after parents. He doesn't need improper outline >> exporting. >> >> Correct? > > Agreed. That's how I read it. The issue has to do with visibility and > folding while editing, not with exporting (since html and latex can't > render such a nested structure). Just to clarify, HTML can, while LaTeX and DocBook can’t. No idea about the remaining export formats. Aankhen
[O] Re: Continuation of main section text after subsections ?
Samuel Wales writes: > IIUC, OP wants to move stuff around more easily and not have improper > body text folded. Improper in this case means belonging to the > grandparent but after parents. He doesn't need improper outline > exporting. > > Correct? Agreed. That's how I read it. The issue has to do with visibility and folding while editing, not with exporting (since html and latex can't render such a nested structure). Best, Matt
Re: [O] Re: Continuation of main section text after subsections ?
On 2011-03-30, Samuel Wales wrote: > IIUC, OP wants to move stuff around more easily and not have improper > body text folded. Improper in this case means belonging to the > grandparent but after parents. He doesn't need improper outline Another correction: improper means belonging to the parent of the task that it currently belongs to in the outline. Not doing well today.
Re: [O] Re: Continuation of main section text after subsections ?
On 2011-03-30, Samuel Wales wrote: > IIUC, OP wants to move stuff around more easily and not have improper > body text folded. Improper in this case means belonging to the Correction: folded *under the parent as it is now*.
Re: [O] Re: Continuation of main section text after subsections ?
IIUC, OP wants to move stuff around more easily and not have improper body text folded. Improper in this case means belonging to the grandparent but after parents. He doesn't need improper outline exporting. Correct? So having headlines for the later stuff like this: On 2011-03-30, Matt Lundin wrote: >>> * Main headline >>>Some thoughts expressed here >>> >>> ** Subheading 1 >>> More thoughts expressed here >>> ** Subheading 2 >>> More thoughts expressed here >>> ** Main headline (cont.) >>> ** here is a headline to make things easier to move >>> I would like to have this text part of 'Main headline', not of >>> 'Subheading 2' should work for him. Except that the headline should not be exported. For which a tag that allows exporting the body without the headline should work. But I proposed this already and it was not the right solution for the OP. So I don't know what is desired. Likely I didn't follow the thread closely enough.
[O] Re: Continuation of main section text after subsections ?
Rasmus writes: >> --8<---cut here---start->8--- >> * Main headline >>Some thoughts expressed here >> >> ** Subheading 1 >> More thoughts expressed here >> ** Subheading 2 >> More thoughts expressed here >> ** Main headline (cont.) >> >> I would like to have this text part of 'Main headline', not of >> 'Subheading 2' >> --8<---cut here---end--->8--- > > I don't understand the logic in this. > There is no logic in it. ;) It is simply a hack to prevent the text at the bottom from being folded into "Subheading 2". If anything, it illustrates that terminating sub-entries in this way only has meaning when drafting a paper, not when publishing/exporting it. Presumably one would remove the "Main headline (cont.)" heading when exporting the piece. AFAICT, the OP is chiefly concerned about visibility when drafting -- i.e., he does not want all the text following "Subheading 2" be folded into that subheading. As pointed out by others in the thread, there is no way for html or LaTeX export to display the sort of nested logic the OP requests. Books and articles have the same logic as outlines; sections are only terminated by another section of an equal or higher level. I think it is natural that org-mode (an outlining tool) adheres to this logic, even if it means that terminated, nested subsections (à la xml) are not possible. > I do however, strongly support the idea of terminating headings, but for > other reasons. > > My problem is ending * COMMENT headings. > > This sketch the issue (in terms of LaTeX export): > #+begin_src emacs-org > * COMMENT This is were I put all my export settings, various notes and such > > it could be placed as the very last headline, but that is somewhat > annoying an illogical to me. > Moving it to the end of the outline would indeed solve these problems. But I believe it could still be the first headline. One solution would be to move any text prior to the first section above *all* the headlines (including the COMMENT headline). If you prefer, you could create a "pre-section" headline and remove it, but not its contents, via an export hook. Best, Matt
Re: [O] Re: Continuation of main section text after subsections ?
Crazy idea: what if there were a special kind of headline, which
basically treats it's content as part of the preceding headline of the
same level?
Cheers.
Fil
On 30 March 2011 06:05, Rasmus wrote:
>
>> --8<---cut here---start->8---
>> * Main headline
>> Some thoughts expressed here
>>
>> ** Subheading 1
>> More thoughts expressed here
>> ** Subheading 2
>> More thoughts expressed here
>> ** Main headline (cont.)
>>
>> I would like to have this text part of 'Main headline', not of
>> 'Subheading 2'
>> --8<---cut here---end--->8---
>
> I don't understand the logic in this.
>
> In terms of final layout, do you want to have subheading appear as a
> "box"? Like in some (introductory) textbooks? If so, you could program a
> certain ** to be export as a certain type of object. You might even be
> able to use tags to determine how output should be formatted, like in
> Org-latex-beamer mode. This might require some hacking.
>
>
> I do however, strongly support the idea of terminating headings, but for
> other reasons.
>
> My problem is ending * COMMENT headings.
>
> This sketch the issue (in terms of LaTeX export):
> #+begin_src emacs-org
> * COMMENT This is were I put all my export settings, various notes and such
>
> it could be placed as the very last headline, but that is somewhat
> annoying an illogical to me.
>
> ** Export
> #+TITLE: Test
> #+AUTHOR: me
> [A bunch of paper-specific #+latex_header:]
>
> ** An outline of the task at hand
> [...]
>
> And HERE I want to put text before the first subsection. That is beneath
> Title but before first section.
> #+end_src
>
> In terms of LaTeX I need something like:
>
> #+begin_src latex
> \begin{document}
> \maketitle
> This is where I want some initial text
> \section{first section}
> #+end_src
>
> Of course, I could start explicitly with a \section{intro} (i.e. *
> Intro) right after \maketitle/\begin{document}, but for short papers I
> find this is redundant.
>
> Is my style the problem or should there be a way to terminate section, maybe
> with an artificial new heading (similar to the :B_ignoreheading: tag)?
>
> Cheers,
> Rasmus
>
>
>
>
--
Filippo A. Salustri, Ph.D., P.Eng.
Mechanical and Industrial Engineering
Ryerson University
350 Victoria St, Toronto, ON
M5B 2K3, Canada
Tel: 416/979-5000 ext 7749
Fax: 416/979-5265
Email: salus...@ryerson.ca
http://deseng.ryerson.ca/~fil/
[O] Re: Continuation of main section text after subsections ?
> --8<---cut here---start->8---
> * Main headline
>Some thoughts expressed here
>
> ** Subheading 1
> More thoughts expressed here
> ** Subheading 2
> More thoughts expressed here
> ** Main headline (cont.)
>
> I would like to have this text part of 'Main headline', not of
> 'Subheading 2'
> --8<---cut here---end--->8---
I don't understand the logic in this.
In terms of final layout, do you want to have subheading appear as a
"box"? Like in some (introductory) textbooks? If so, you could program a
certain ** to be export as a certain type of object. You might even be
able to use tags to determine how output should be formatted, like in
Org-latex-beamer mode. This might require some hacking.
I do however, strongly support the idea of terminating headings, but for
other reasons.
My problem is ending * COMMENT headings.
This sketch the issue (in terms of LaTeX export):
#+begin_src emacs-org
* COMMENT This is were I put all my export settings, various notes and such
it could be placed as the very last headline, but that is somewhat
annoying an illogical to me.
** Export
#+TITLE: Test
#+AUTHOR: me
[A bunch of paper-specific #+latex_header:]
** An outline of the task at hand
[...]
And HERE I want to put text before the first subsection. That is beneath
Title but before first section.
#+end_src
In terms of LaTeX I need something like:
#+begin_src latex
\begin{document}
\maketitle
This is where I want some initial text
\section{first section}
#+end_src
Of course, I could start explicitly with a \section{intro} (i.e. *
Intro) right after \maketitle/\begin{document}, but for short papers I
find this is redundant.
Is my style the problem or should there be a way to terminate section, maybe
with an artificial new heading (similar to the :B_ignoreheading: tag)?
Cheers,
Rasmus
Re: [O] Re: Continuation of main section text after subsections ?
On Wed, Mar 30, 2011 at 00:29, Matt Lundin wrote:
> William Gardella writes:
>>
>> I think org-mode should aim to be flexible enough to accomodate all
>> writers, writing tasks, and writing styles. Maybe for this particular
>> issue it would be enough to give org-mode an explicit way to "close" a
>> heading--an Org-wide equivalent to \end{section} in LaTeX, say.
>
> Is there an \end{section} in LaTeX?
No, hence my question earlier in the thread: how would one return to
an enclosing context in LaTeX or DocBook? After all, it wouldn’t make
sense to allow it in org-mode and then have the text end up as part of
the last subsection when exported.
Aankhen
[O] Re: Continuation of main section text after subsections ?
Marcel van der Boom writes: > When I'm using orgmode to write out largish documents, I often run into > the outlining problem that it's apparently not possible to continue > text of a higher level outline once subsections have been started. > > A simplified example of such an outline would be: > > --- > * Main headline > Some thoughts expressed here > > ** Subheading 1 >More thoughts expressed here > ** Subheading 2 >More thoughts expressed here > > I would like to have this text part of 'Main headline', not of > 'Subheading 2' > Would this work? --8<---cut here---start->8--- * Main headline Some thoughts expressed here ** Subheading 1 More thoughts expressed here ** Subheading 2 More thoughts expressed here ** Main headline (cont.) I would like to have this text part of 'Main headline', not of 'Subheading 2' --8<---cut here---end--->8--- > I've looked for documentation or customization options on this, but > haven't found any yet. What I have done so far is turn the subheadings > into lists or surround them by *bold markers*, which helps a little. Org-mode's assumptions about sections are the same as those found in outlines in general or in books or articles -- i.e., a section is terminated only another section. For nested sections you could always use xml to write your papers. ;) > The current outlining interrupts my flow of writing too often; it's > getting a nuisance. What are my options, if any, to get the outline > behaviour as above? Apart from the hack above, I would recommend inline tasks. Subheading 1 More thoughts expressed here END Best, Matt
[O] Re: Continuation of main section text after subsections ?
William Gardella writes:
>
> I think org-mode should aim to be flexible enough to accomodate all
> writers, writing tasks, and writing styles. Maybe for this particular
> issue it would be enough to give org-mode an explicit way to "close" a
> heading--an Org-wide equivalent to \end{section} in LaTeX, say.
Is there an \end{section} in LaTeX?
Best,
Matt
Re: [O] Re: Continuation of main section text after subsections ?
On zo 27-mrt-2011 13:08 "Filippo A. Salustri" wrote: > I would humbly suggest that the real question is a design / use case > question. Is it reasonable to expect authors to stick to proper > outline format throughout their drafting process? If it is, then org > is fine as is. If it isn't, then there's a problem. Very much agreed. I think that paragraph is the best summary so far for the problem, stated in generic terms. marcel PS For what it is worth, I think the 'case of inline tasks' is exactly the same problem as mine. -- Marcel van der Boom -- http://hsdev.com/mvdb.vcf HS-Development BV-- http://www.hsdev.com So! web applications -- http://make-it-so.info Cobra build -- http://cobra.mrblog.nl
[O] Re: Continuation of main section text after subsections
Hi, Samuel Wales wrote: > Perhaps we could have a tag like :noexport: except that it exports body. It > does not export the header. Optionally, it would be replaced with a blank > line. > > Then he can put headers anywhere he wants. > > Would this work for the OP's use case? I really am not (yet?) convinced by the need -- as I don't really see how it fits in LaTeX/HTML. However, just to answer one detail point, would such a new tag globally exist, it would have to be :ignoreheading: (it does already exist in Org-Beamer for "anonym" columns). Best regards, Seb -- Sébastien Vauban
[O] Re: Continuation of main section text after subsections ?
Marcel van der Boom writes: > On zo 27-mrt-2011 16:52 > Cian wrote: > >> You can't do that, as it would be akin to trying to have in a book >> >> Section 1 >> Stuff >> Section 1.1.1 >> More stuff >> >> Now this goes under Section 1 >> >> Not really an idiom that makes sense (I find its best to think of >> org-mode's headings as chapter headers > > Agreed, for paper books that would not make much sense (depending on > how you do it) and that fact kept me from asking the question for a > while. > For electronic texts however, especially in the drafting stage where > (sub-)sections get shuffled around, promoted, demoted, split etc. it > does make sense, to me at least. > > When writing I tend to think about org headings as 'handles' to a > logical block of information, including its child blocks. Apparently my > analogy clashes with what org-mode wants. I had my hopes on a > customization option. > > Is there a strong reason this could not work as an option in org-mode? > > marcel Marcel, I think this is not yet easily possible in org-mode due to the limitations of org's rather simple concept of markup. Because org tries to stay out of the way of the user's choice of indentation flow, for example, whitespace can't be used to indicate that your text has returned to the top level after entering a subheading. And unlike in, e.g., HTML or LaTeX, there's no way of "closing" the subheading environment explicitly. As Cian suggests, some alternatives you can use are to employ drawers or environments such as #+BEGIN_NOTE. I also use Org as a drafting tool, mostly for documents that will end up as papers or legal documents rendered with LaTeX. There are a few ambiguities in the markup that are hard to resolve without going the additional step of exporting to HTML or LaTeX and editing that output. You've just stumbled into one of them... -- William Gardella J.D. Candidate Class of 2011, University of Pittsburgh School of Law
[O] Re: Continuation of main section text after subsections ?
Achim Gratz writes:
> William Gardella writes:
>> I think org-mode should aim to be flexible enough to accomodate all
>> writers, writing tasks, and writing styles.
>
> With flexibility comes complexity, which runs counter to "org should be
> simple".
>
Agreed, but I'd say org is already one of the most complex projects in
Emacs. Its *apparent* simplicity for new victims--er, users--is a
feature worth keeping, of course. :)
>> Maybe for this particular issue it would be enough to give org-mode
>> an explicit way to "close" a heading--an Org-wide equivalent to
>> \end{section} in LaTeX, say.
>
> There already is: you simply start a new section for each "thought",
> preferrably wih no whitespace after the heading so it becomes a visual
> unit that just folds away when outlined. I've been doing that with
> Outline Mode and AuCTeX and it is actually much easier to do in orgmode.
> Once you get your thoughts into the proper order by sorting the
> "headlines", you can then insert, remove, edit, de- and promote the
> headings to finalize the document into something more readable. In my
> experience, there rarely is a need to change the first level structure.
> However, if you are organizing the structure of your document while the
> content is still largely absent, then (as has already been suggested) it
> is easier in orgmode to do that in a list. List items can be converted
> into headings and vice versa quite easily.
>
>
> Regards,
> Achim.
I use a workflow similar to this, using subheadings to allow for easier
reordering of paragraphs/thoughts. I guess it's good to keep in mind
that using Org as a word processor (rather like using Gnus as a
mailclient) requires some rethinking and reevaluation of how one might
otherwise do things. And maybe a change in approach is a better idea
when a technical fix might make org's markup or parser unnecessarily
complex.
--
William Gardella
J.D. Candidate
Class of 2011, University of Pittsburgh School of Law
[O] Re: Continuation of main section text after subsections ?
William Gardella writes:
> I think org-mode should aim to be flexible enough to accomodate all
> writers, writing tasks, and writing styles.
With flexibility comes complexity, which runs counter to "org should be
simple".
> Maybe for this particular issue it would be enough to give org-mode
> an explicit way to "close" a heading--an Org-wide equivalent to
> \end{section} in LaTeX, say.
There already is: you simply start a new section for each "thought",
preferrably wih no whitespace after the heading so it becomes a visual
unit that just folds away when outlined. I've been doing that with
Outline Mode and AuCTeX and it is actually much easier to do in orgmode.
Once you get your thoughts into the proper order by sorting the
"headlines", you can then insert, remove, edit, de- and promote the
headings to finalize the document into something more readable. In my
experience, there rarely is a need to change the first level structure.
However, if you are organizing the structure of your document while the
content is still largely absent, then (as has already been suggested) it
is easier in orgmode to do that in a list. List items can be converted
into headings and vice versa quite easily.
Regards,
Achim.
--
+<[Q+ Matrix-12 WAVE#46+305 Neuron microQkb Andromeda XTk Blofeld]>+
Waldorf MIDI Implementation & additional documentation:
http://Synth.Stromeko.net/Downloads.html#WaldorfDocs
Re: [O] Re: Continuation of main section text after subsections ?
Wouldn't blocks that allowed org headings offer this. If I understand this correctly, what you're really looking for is the ability to mark certain bits of text as one blob, so that you can move them around easily as you draft a paper, without worrying about pulling other bits of the paper. So this would work: * First level blah blah ** Second level #+BEGIN_block some text * Third level because all headings within the block are treated as subheadings of the containing level ** Fourth level This is some rubbish that I'm not sure about #+END_BLOCK This is different rubbish that will stay here if I cut the block above me Would something along those lines serve? On Sun, Mar 27, 2011 at 5:11 PM, Marcel van der Boom wrote: > > On zo 27-mrt-2011 16:52 > Cian wrote: > >> You can't do that, as it would be akin to trying to have in a book >> >> Section 1 >> Stuff >> Section 1.1.1 >> More stuff >> >> Now this goes under Section 1 >> >> Not really an idiom that makes sense (I find its best to think of >> org-mode's headings as chapter headers > > Agreed, for paper books that would not make much sense (depending on > how you do it) and that fact kept me from asking the question for a > while. > For electronic texts however, especially in the drafting stage where > (sub-)sections get shuffled around, promoted, demoted, split etc. it > does make sense, to me at least. > > When writing I tend to think about org headings as 'handles' to a > logical block of information, including its child blocks. Apparently my > analogy clashes with what org-mode wants. I had my hopes on a > customization option. > > Is there a strong reason this could not work as an option in org-mode? > > marcel > > -- > Marcel van der Boom -- http://hsdev.com/mvdb.vcf > HS-Development BV -- http://www.hsdev.com > So! web applications -- http://make-it-so.info > Cobra build -- http://cobra.mrblog.nl > >
Re: [O] Re: Continuation of main section text after subsections ?
IIUC the goal is to allow continuing body text. Is this for org itself or for export? Or both? I wonder if inline tasks can be used to achieve some of this. Samuel -- The Kafka Pandemic: http://thekafkapandemic.blogspot.com/2010/12/welcome-to-kafka-pandemic-two-forces_9182.html I support the Whittemore-Peterson Institute (WPI) === I want to see the original (pre-hold) Lo et al. 2010 NIH/FDA/Harvard MRV paper.
Re: [O] Re: Continuation of main section text after subsections ?
Hullo, On Sun, Mar 27, 2011 at 22:32, William Gardella wrote: > Marcel van der Boom writes: > >> On zo 27-mrt-2011 16:52 >> Cian wrote: >> >>> You can't do that, as it would be akin to trying to have in a book >>> >>> Section 1 >>> Stuff >>> Section 1.1.1 >>> More stuff >>> >>> Now this goes under Section 1 >>> >>> Not really an idiom that makes sense (I find its best to think of >>> org-mode's headings as chapter headers >> >> Agreed, for paper books that would not make much sense (depending on >> how you do it) and that fact kept me from asking the question for a >> while. >> For electronic texts however, especially in the drafting stage where >> (sub-)sections get shuffled around, promoted, demoted, split etc. it >> does make sense, to me at least. >> >> When writing I tend to think about org headings as 'handles' to a >> logical block of information, including its child blocks. Apparently my >> analogy clashes with what org-mode wants. I had my hopes on a >> customization option. >> >> Is there a strong reason this could not work as an option in org-mode? >> >> marcel > > Marcel, > > I think this is not yet easily possible in org-mode due to the > limitations of org's rather simple concept of markup. Because org tries > to stay out of the way of the user's choice of indentation flow, for > example, whitespace can't be used to indicate that your text has > returned to the top level after entering a subheading. And unlike in, > e.g., HTML or LaTeX, there's no way of "closing" the subheading > environment explicitly. > > As Cian suggests, some alternatives you can use are to employ drawers or > environments such as #+BEGIN_NOTE. > > I also use Org as a drafting tool, mostly for documents that will end up > as papers or legal documents rendered with LaTeX. There are a few > ambiguities in the markup that are hard to resolve without going the > additional step of exporting to HTML or LaTeX and editing that output. > You've just stumbled into one of them... Out of curiosity, how would you return to an enclosing context in LaTeX or DocBook? In HTML, of course, you can nest ‘div’ elements (or proper ‘section’ elements in HTML5) and alternate subsections and text to your heart’s content. As far as I know, there is no equivalent in the other two formats: you need to use other containers within the section, such as lists or tables. Aankhen
Re: [O] Re: Continuation of main section text after subsections ?
Out of my depth too. That's why I'd be happy to live with it as is. :)
Cheers.
Fil
On 27 March 2011 13:18, William Gardella wrote:
> "Filippo A. Salustri" writes:
>
>> It seems to me we're getting into some real design territory here, in
>> that it comes down to a question of a "proper" outline.
>> I agree that a proper outline is such that Marcel's format is "improper."
>> I agree that org follows the proper outline, was designed to suit it,
>> and therefore it isn't surprising that it's not trivially easy to
>> support Marcel's format too.
>>
>> I would humbly suggest that the real question is a design / use case
>> question. Is it reasonable to expect authors to stick to proper
>> outline format throughout their drafting process? If it is, then org
>> is fine as is. If it isn't, then there's a problem.
>>
>> /How/ it's implemented, or worked around, as the case may be, is,
>> imho, irrelevant in the long term (tho certainly useful in the short).
>>
>> Cheers.
>> Fil
>>
>
> I think org-mode should aim to be flexible enough to accomodate all
> writers, writing tasks, and writing styles. Maybe for this particular
> issue it would be enough to give org-mode an explicit way to "close" a
> heading--an Org-wide equivalent to \end{section} in LaTeX, say. Of
> course it would have to be as pithy and unobtrusive as the rest of
> org-mode syntax...I'm sure it's possible (because with Elisp practically
> everything is possible), but out of my depth. :)
>
> --
> William Gardella
> J.D. Candidate
> Class of 2011, University of Pittsburgh School of Law
>
>
>
--
Filippo A. Salustri, Ph.D., P.Eng.
Mechanical and Industrial Engineering
Ryerson University
350 Victoria St, Toronto, ON
M5B 2K3, Canada
Tel: 416/979-5000 ext 7749
Fax: 416/979-5265
Email: salus...@ryerson.ca
http://deseng.ryerson.ca/~fil/
[O] Re: Continuation of main section text after subsections ?
"Filippo A. Salustri" writes:
> It seems to me we're getting into some real design territory here, in
> that it comes down to a question of a "proper" outline.
> I agree that a proper outline is such that Marcel's format is "improper."
> I agree that org follows the proper outline, was designed to suit it,
> and therefore it isn't surprising that it's not trivially easy to
> support Marcel's format too.
>
> I would humbly suggest that the real question is a design / use case
> question. Is it reasonable to expect authors to stick to proper
> outline format throughout their drafting process? If it is, then org
> is fine as is. If it isn't, then there's a problem.
>
> /How/ it's implemented, or worked around, as the case may be, is,
> imho, irrelevant in the long term (tho certainly useful in the short).
>
> Cheers.
> Fil
>
I think org-mode should aim to be flexible enough to accomodate all
writers, writing tasks, and writing styles. Maybe for this particular
issue it would be enough to give org-mode an explicit way to "close" a
heading--an Org-wide equivalent to \end{section} in LaTeX, say. Of
course it would have to be as pithy and unobtrusive as the rest of
org-mode syntax...I'm sure it's possible (because with Elisp practically
everything is possible), but out of my depth. :)
--
William Gardella
J.D. Candidate
Class of 2011, University of Pittsburgh School of Law
[O] Re: Continuation of main section text after subsections ?
Yes, of course. But it's still something *I* have to do as a separate task. This breaks my cognitive workflow; it's a distraction. One of the reasons I use org is that it's so distraction-free compared to every other tool I've tried. It seems like distraction-freeness is a big deal in org, so I would have thought that every bit of distraction is a distraction too many. Cheers. Fil On 27 March 2011 13:08, Nicolas wrote: > Hello, > > "Filippo A. Salustri" writes: > >> The workaround I use is to use lists instead of headlines. The >> problem then becomes the extra work of turning lists into >> headines+text later. > > What about using C-c C-* on the list? > > Regards, > > -- > Nicolas > -- Filippo A. Salustri, Ph.D., P.Eng. Mechanical and Industrial Engineering Ryerson University 350 Victoria St, Toronto, ON M5B 2K3, Canada Tel: 416/979-5000 ext 7749 Fax: 416/979-5265 Email: salus...@ryerson.ca http://deseng.ryerson.ca/~fil/
Re: [O] Re: Continuation of main section text after subsections ?
It seems to me we're getting into some real design territory here, in that it comes down to a question of a "proper" outline. I agree that a proper outline is such that Marcel's format is "improper." I agree that org follows the proper outline, was designed to suit it, and therefore it isn't surprising that it's not trivially easy to support Marcel's format too. I would humbly suggest that the real question is a design / use case question. Is it reasonable to expect authors to stick to proper outline format throughout their drafting process? If it is, then org is fine as is. If it isn't, then there's a problem. /How/ it's implemented, or worked around, as the case may be, is, imho, irrelevant in the long term (tho certainly useful in the short). Cheers. Fil On 27 March 2011 13:02, William Gardella wrote: > Marcel van der Boom writes: > >> On zo 27-mrt-2011 16:52 >> Cian wrote: >> >>> You can't do that, as it would be akin to trying to have in a book >>> >>> Section 1 >>> Stuff >>> Section 1.1.1 >>> More stuff >>> >>> Now this goes under Section 1 >>> >>> Not really an idiom that makes sense (I find its best to think of >>> org-mode's headings as chapter headers >> >> Agreed, for paper books that would not make much sense (depending on >> how you do it) and that fact kept me from asking the question for a >> while. >> For electronic texts however, especially in the drafting stage where >> (sub-)sections get shuffled around, promoted, demoted, split etc. it >> does make sense, to me at least. >> >> When writing I tend to think about org headings as 'handles' to a >> logical block of information, including its child blocks. Apparently my >> analogy clashes with what org-mode wants. I had my hopes on a >> customization option. >> >> Is there a strong reason this could not work as an option in org-mode? >> >> marcel > > Marcel, > > I think this is not yet easily possible in org-mode due to the > limitations of org's rather simple concept of markup. Because org tries > to stay out of the way of the user's choice of indentation flow, for > example, whitespace can't be used to indicate that your text has > returned to the top level after entering a subheading. And unlike in, > e.g., HTML or LaTeX, there's no way of "closing" the subheading > environment explicitly. > > As Cian suggests, some alternatives you can use are to employ drawers or > environments such as #+BEGIN_NOTE. > > I also use Org as a drafting tool, mostly for documents that will end up > as papers or legal documents rendered with LaTeX. There are a few > ambiguities in the markup that are hard to resolve without going the > additional step of exporting to HTML or LaTeX and editing that output. > You've just stumbled into one of them... > > I'd support some kind of fix, but it'd be moderately to very involved > and far beyond my level of comfort with Elisp. I also agree that it'd > be hard to specify. > > -- > William Gardella > J.D. Candidate > Class of 2011, University of Pittsburgh School of Law > > > -- Filippo A. Salustri, Ph.D., P.Eng. Mechanical and Industrial Engineering Ryerson University 350 Victoria St, Toronto, ON M5B 2K3, Canada Tel: 416/979-5000 ext 7749 Fax: 416/979-5265 Email: salus...@ryerson.ca http://deseng.ryerson.ca/~fil/
[O] Re: Continuation of main section text after subsections ?
Hello, "Filippo A. Salustri" writes: > The workaround I use is to use lists instead of headlines. The > problem then becomes the extra work of turning lists into > headines+text later. What about using C-c C-* on the list? Regards, -- Nicolas
[O] Re: Continuation of main section text after subsections ?
Marcel van der Boom writes: > On zo 27-mrt-2011 16:52 > Cian wrote: > >> You can't do that, as it would be akin to trying to have in a book >> >> Section 1 >> Stuff >> Section 1.1.1 >> More stuff >> >> Now this goes under Section 1 >> >> Not really an idiom that makes sense (I find its best to think of >> org-mode's headings as chapter headers > > Agreed, for paper books that would not make much sense (depending on > how you do it) and that fact kept me from asking the question for a > while. > For electronic texts however, especially in the drafting stage where > (sub-)sections get shuffled around, promoted, demoted, split etc. it > does make sense, to me at least. > > When writing I tend to think about org headings as 'handles' to a > logical block of information, including its child blocks. Apparently my > analogy clashes with what org-mode wants. I had my hopes on a > customization option. > > Is there a strong reason this could not work as an option in org-mode? > > marcel Marcel, I think this is not yet easily possible in org-mode due to the limitations of org's rather simple concept of markup. Because org tries to stay out of the way of the user's choice of indentation flow, for example, whitespace can't be used to indicate that your text has returned to the top level after entering a subheading. And unlike in, e.g., HTML or LaTeX, there's no way of "closing" the subheading environment explicitly. As Cian suggests, some alternatives you can use are to employ drawers or environments such as #+BEGIN_NOTE. I also use Org as a drafting tool, mostly for documents that will end up as papers or legal documents rendered with LaTeX. There are a few ambiguities in the markup that are hard to resolve without going the additional step of exporting to HTML or LaTeX and editing that output. You've just stumbled into one of them... I'd support some kind of fix, but it'd be moderately to very involved and far beyond my level of comfort with Elisp. I also agree that it'd be hard to specify. -- William Gardella J.D. Candidate Class of 2011, University of Pittsburgh School of Law
[O] Re: Continuation of main section text after subsections ?
Marcel wrote: > When I'm using orgmode to write out largish documents, I often run into > the outlining problem that it's apparently not possible to continue > text of a higher level outline once subsections have been started. Here's a not-so-pretty hack to get what (I guess) you want * Main headline ** Main headline contents Some thoughts expressed here *** Subheading 1 More thoughts expressed here *** Subheading 2 More thoughts expressed here ** main headline contents1 Not exactly part of Main headline but of Main headline contentsi for some i -- The idea basically is to split your heading into a heading proper and a (series of) contents headlines. The actual subheadings go 1 level deeper than your original (logical?) intention. You could of course in principle apply the same principle recursively to the (original) sub headlines though in practice I guess you would only need do that to the large sections.
Re: [O] Re: Continuation of main section text after subsections ?
On Mar 27, 2011, at 6:45 AM, Nick Dokos wrote: Marcel van der Boom wrote: When writing I tend to think about org headings as 'handles' to a logical block of information, including its child blocks. Apparently my analogy clashes with what org-mode wants. I had my hopes on a customization option. Is there a strong reason this could not work as an option in org- mode? I'm sure that patches would be welcome, but I think you'd find it difficult to specify, let alone implement. In particular, how do you tell where the section 1.1.1 stuff ends and the section 1 stuff begins again? And would the extra stuff be part of section 1 or (sub)section 1.1? Why? And don't forget this is all just text, so any markup has to be minimal, intuitive and as unobtrusive as possible. The devil is in the details. Nick I don't think the limitation is Org-mode's. Marcel's structure simply deviates from proper outline structure. His situation is typically handled in linear text with footnotes, and in non-linear text with links, both of which Org-mode implements without issue. Tom
Re: [O] Re: Continuation of main section text after subsections ?
I agree with Marcel on this. If org is supposed to help get /to/ the final version of a document, then it should support the (possibly inconsistent) structures that can appear in all the in-between steps after conceiving of the document and before the final version. The workaround I use is to use lists instead of headlines. The problem then becomes the extra work of turning lists into headines+text later. Cheers. Fil On 27 March 2011 12:11, Marcel van der Boom wrote: > > On zo 27-mrt-2011 16:52 > Cian wrote: > >> You can't do that, as it would be akin to trying to have in a book >> >> Section 1 >> Stuff >> Section 1.1.1 >> More stuff >> >> Now this goes under Section 1 >> >> Not really an idiom that makes sense (I find its best to think of >> org-mode's headings as chapter headers > > Agreed, for paper books that would not make much sense (depending on > how you do it) and that fact kept me from asking the question for a > while. > For electronic texts however, especially in the drafting stage where > (sub-)sections get shuffled around, promoted, demoted, split etc. it > does make sense, to me at least. > > When writing I tend to think about org headings as 'handles' to a > logical block of information, including its child blocks. Apparently my > analogy clashes with what org-mode wants. I had my hopes on a > customization option. > > Is there a strong reason this could not work as an option in org-mode? > > marcel > > -- > Marcel van der Boom -- http://hsdev.com/mvdb.vcf > HS-Development BV -- http://www.hsdev.com > So! web applications -- http://make-it-so.info > Cobra build -- http://cobra.mrblog.nl > > -- Filippo A. Salustri, Ph.D., P.Eng. Mechanical and Industrial Engineering Ryerson University 350 Victoria St, Toronto, ON M5B 2K3, Canada Tel: 416/979-5000 ext 7749 Fax: 416/979-5265 Email: salus...@ryerson.ca http://deseng.ryerson.ca/~fil/
Re: [O] Re: Continuation of main section text after subsections ?
Marcel van der Boom wrote: > When writing I tend to think about org headings as 'handles' to a > logical block of information, including its child blocks. Apparently my > analogy clashes with what org-mode wants. I had my hopes on a > customization option. > > Is there a strong reason this could not work as an option in org-mode? > I'm sure that patches would be welcome, but I think you'd find it difficult to specify, let alone implement. In particular, how do you tell where the section 1.1.1 stuff ends and the section 1 stuff begins again? And would the extra stuff be part of section 1 or (sub)section 1.1? Why? And don't forget this is all just text, so any markup has to be minimal, intuitive and as unobtrusive as possible. The devil is in the details. Nick
Re: [O] Re: Continuation of main section text after subsections ?
On zo 27-mrt-2011 16:52 Cian wrote: > You can't do that, as it would be akin to trying to have in a book > > Section 1 > Stuff > Section 1.1.1 > More stuff > > Now this goes under Section 1 > > Not really an idiom that makes sense (I find its best to think of > org-mode's headings as chapter headers Agreed, for paper books that would not make much sense (depending on how you do it) and that fact kept me from asking the question for a while. For electronic texts however, especially in the drafting stage where (sub-)sections get shuffled around, promoted, demoted, split etc. it does make sense, to me at least. When writing I tend to think about org headings as 'handles' to a logical block of information, including its child blocks. Apparently my analogy clashes with what org-mode wants. I had my hopes on a customization option. Is there a strong reason this could not work as an option in org-mode? marcel -- Marcel van der Boom -- http://hsdev.com/mvdb.vcf HS-Development BV-- http://www.hsdev.com So! web applications -- http://make-it-so.info Cobra build -- http://cobra.mrblog.nl
Re: [O] Re: Continuation of main section text after subsections ?
You can't do that, as it would be akin to trying to have in a book Section 1 Stuff Section 1.1.1 More stuff Now this goes under Section 1 Not really an idiom that makes sense (I find its best to think of org-mode's headings as chapter headers What you can do is something like the following: * Main headline Something goes here #+BEGIN_NOTE sub thoughts #+END_NOTE Some more stuff under main headline The #stuff can be closed when you want it to get it out of the way, so I sometimes use this a means of attaching notes to a document. It works, but I'm sure it could be improved. That way you can also have different exporting options for the note if you really want them. On Sun, Mar 27, 2011 at 4:37 PM, Jambunathan K wrote: > >> --- >> * Main headline >> Some thoughts expressed here >> >> ** Subheading 1 >> More thoughts expressed here >> ** Subheading 2 >> More thoughts expressed here >> >> I would like to have this text part of 'Main headline', not of >> 'Subheading 2' >> > > Why is copy pasting not an option ... > > My intention is not to tick you off but I am confused about what you are > trying to say here. > > Jambunathan K. > >
[O] Re: Continuation of main section text after subsections ?
> --- > * Main headline > Some thoughts expressed here > > ** Subheading 1 >More thoughts expressed here > ** Subheading 2 >More thoughts expressed here > > I would like to have this text part of 'Main headline', not of > 'Subheading 2' > Why is copy pasting not an option ... My intention is not to tick you off but I am confused about what you are trying to say here. Jambunathan K.
