Re: [O] converting people to Emacs and org-mode
Jude DaShiell writes: > Accessibility standards cover this area pretty thoroughly. > http://governor.state.tx.us/disabilities/accessibledocs/ has some > information that might be bent to emacs-orgmode's purposes. Thanks. Very useful resource. I've passed this on to my students! -- : Eric S Fraga, GnuPG: 0xC89193D8FFFCF67D : in Emacs 24.3.50.1 and Org release_8.0.1-19-g9655a1
Re: [O] converting people to Emacs and org-mode
Accessibility standards cover this area pretty thoroughly. http://governor.state.tx.us/disabilities/accessibledocs/ has some information that might be bent to emacs-orgmode's purposes. On Tue, 23 Apr 2013, Eric S Fraga wrote: > Bastien writes: > > > Eric S Fraga writes: > > > >> And I've not only given up trying to convert anybody to Emacs, I have > >> also given up trying to explain why a dark background with light text is > >> much better on the eyes. Too much inertia and bad practices out there > >> unfortunately. > > > > On this slightly off-topic subject, an oculist told me the dark > > background did not really matter, what matters is the contrast. > > Very high and very low are not good, something inbetween (but > > he could point to a way to quantify this.) > > It is indeed all about contrast and the problem is that, in many > environments, the lighting of the environment is significantly lower > brightness than a white background screen. YMMV, of course ;-) > > Note that this is for emitting devices as opposed to reflective > surfaces, such as paper and e-readers, where black on white is better. > > Personally, I have problems with my eyes unfortunately and I do need to > configure systems so that I don't end up with headaches every day. > > Off-topic but a very important selling point for Emacs, IMO. It is so > easy to change colour themes and have results that look good in > seconds. Contrast this with most other software where it is just plain > difficult if not impossible to configure the colours as one would > like. And org mode works very well with most of the colour themes I > have tried. > > Anyway, back to normal programming on this channel! :-) > > --- jude Microsoft, windows is accessible. why do blind people need screen readers?
Re: [O] converting people to Emacs and org-mode
Bastien writes: > Eric S Fraga writes: > >> And I've not only given up trying to convert anybody to Emacs, I have >> also given up trying to explain why a dark background with light text is >> much better on the eyes. Too much inertia and bad practices out there >> unfortunately. > > On this slightly off-topic subject, an oculist told me the dark > background did not really matter, what matters is the contrast. > Very high and very low are not good, something inbetween (but > he could point to a way to quantify this.) It is indeed all about contrast and the problem is that, in many environments, the lighting of the environment is significantly lower brightness than a white background screen. YMMV, of course ;-) Note that this is for emitting devices as opposed to reflective surfaces, such as paper and e-readers, where black on white is better. Personally, I have problems with my eyes unfortunately and I do need to configure systems so that I don't end up with headaches every day. Off-topic but a very important selling point for Emacs, IMO. It is so easy to change colour themes and have results that look good in seconds. Contrast this with most other software where it is just plain difficult if not impossible to configure the colours as one would like. And org mode works very well with most of the colour themes I have tried. Anyway, back to normal programming on this channel! :-) -- : Eric S Fraga, GnuPG: 0xC89193D8FFFCF67D : in Emacs 24.3.50.1 and Org release_8.0-pre-347-g4b139e
Re: [O] converting people to Emacs and org-mode
On 22.4.2013, at 19:11, Bastien wrote: > Eric S Fraga writes: > >> And I've not only given up trying to convert anybody to Emacs, I have >> also given up trying to explain why a dark background with light text is >> much better on the eyes. Too much inertia and bad practices out there >> unfortunately. > > On this slightly off-topic subject, an oculist told me the dark > background did not really matter, what matters is the contrast. > Very high and very low are not good, something inbetween (but > he could point to a way to quantify this.) > > I use xcalib (http://xcalib.sourceforge.net/) to quickly switch > from light-on-dark (most often) to dark-on-light (from time to > time) and I recommend it. Yes, off-topic, but in a nice way. My experience is also that something below the highest contrast is much easier on the eyes. My most recent discovery in this space is http://stereopsis.com/flux/. It is a free app that takes the blue out of your screen when the sun sets. So if you decide to open your laptop at night, that blazing while will have made way for a yellowish screen. I find this extremely pleasant. If I now switch back to full white late at night, I have the feeling my eyes are burned away. - Carsten
Re: [O] converting people to Emacs and org-mode
Achim Gratz writes: > Sebastien Vauban writes: >> What I once heard from ergonomical studies is that "black on white" >> was better than "white on black". Though, is it based on real grounds? > > All these studies dependend on which CRT was used (most of which > produced blurry pictures for dark-on-light content) and are mostly moot > with current LCD monitors. The remaining differences are due to > environmental conditions, but if you follow the lighting recommendations > for office work and adjust the screen brightness (most LCD screens > default much too bright as that looks better in stores) you'll be almost > certainly much better off with a light background and black script, for > the simple reason that your eyes' pupils will be smaller and the depth > of focus larger that way. Scientists prove all kind of things, and they are utterly wrong so often. Why not ask your eyes? Try 'emacs -fg wheat -bg black' or a nice dark color theme (e.g. http://suvayu.wordpress.com/2010/10/11/color-theme-dark-emacs/) for a while and then check out if going back to 'black on white' doesn't hurt your eyes. My eyes clearly tell me that a dark background is better (for me). -- cheers, Thorsten
Re: [O] converting people to Emacs and org-mode
Sebastien Vauban writes: > What I once heard from ergonomical studies is that "black on white" > was better than "white on black". Though, is it based on real grounds? All these studies dependend on which CRT was used (most of which produced blurry pictures for dark-on-light content) and are mostly moot with current LCD monitors. The remaining differences are due to environmental conditions, but if you follow the lighting recommendations for office work and adjust the screen brightness (most LCD screens default much too bright as that looks better in stores) you'll be almost certainly much better off with a light background and black script, for the simple reason that your eyes' pupils will be smaller and the depth of focus larger that way. Regards, Achim. -- +<[Q+ Matrix-12 WAVE#46+305 Neuron microQkb Andromeda XTk Blofeld]>+ SD adaptation for Waldorf Blofeld V1.15B11: http://Synth.Stromeko.net/Downloads.html#WaldorfSDada
Re: [O] converting people to Emacs and org-mode
On 4/22/13, Bastien wrote: > I use xcalib (http://xcalib.sourceforge.net/) to quickly switch > from light-on-dark (most often) to dark-on-light (from time to > time) and I recommend it. Interesting. How did you use it to do that? I had assumed that colors could not be inverted automatically without algorithms specifically designed for the purpose. Samuel -- The Kafka Pandemic: http://thekafkapandemic.blogspot.com The disease DOES progress. MANY people have died from it. ANYBODY can get it. There is NO hope without action. This means YOU.
Re: [O] converting people to Emacs and org-mode
On Mon, Apr 22, 2013 at 2:35 PM, Sebastien Vauban wrote: > Bastien wrote: >> Eric S Fraga writes: >> >>> And I've not only given up trying to convert anybody to Emacs, I have >>> also given up trying to explain why a dark background with light text is >>> much better on the eyes. Too much inertia and bad practices out there >>> unfortunately. >> >> On this slightly off-topic subject, an oculist told me the dark >> background did not really matter, what matters is the contrast. >> Very high and very low are not good, something inbetween (but >> he could point to a way to quantify this.) >> >> I use xcalib (http://xcalib.sourceforge.net/) to quickly switch >> from light-on-dark (most often) to dark-on-light (from time to >> time) and I recommend it. > > What I once heard from ergonomical studies is that "black on white" was better > than "white on black". Though, is it based on real grounds? > Others want to know, too. If you find the answer... you'll get a lot of votes :) - http://skeptics.stackexchange.com/questions/6925/are-light-on-dark-colour-schemes-for-computer-screens-better-for-programmers John > Best regards, > Seb > > -- > Sebastien Vauban > >
Re: [O] converting people to Emacs and org-mode
Bastien wrote: > Eric S Fraga writes: > >> And I've not only given up trying to convert anybody to Emacs, I have >> also given up trying to explain why a dark background with light text is >> much better on the eyes. Too much inertia and bad practices out there >> unfortunately. > > On this slightly off-topic subject, an oculist told me the dark > background did not really matter, what matters is the contrast. > Very high and very low are not good, something inbetween (but > he could point to a way to quantify this.) > > I use xcalib (http://xcalib.sourceforge.net/) to quickly switch > from light-on-dark (most often) to dark-on-light (from time to > time) and I recommend it. What I once heard from ergonomical studies is that "black on white" was better than "white on black". Though, is it based on real grounds? Best regards, Seb -- Sebastien Vauban
Re: [O] converting people to Emacs and org-mode
Eric S Fraga writes: > And I've not only given up trying to convert anybody to Emacs, I have > also given up trying to explain why a dark background with light text is > much better on the eyes. Too much inertia and bad practices out there > unfortunately. On this slightly off-topic subject, an oculist told me the dark background did not really matter, what matters is the contrast. Very high and very low are not good, something inbetween (but he could point to a way to quantify this.) I use xcalib (http://xcalib.sourceforge.net/) to quickly switch from light-on-dark (most often) to dark-on-light (from time to time) and I recommend it. -- Bastien
Re: [O] converting people to Emacs and org-mode
I might have converted someone this weekend. I had been babbling about Emacs, lisp, and the early 1980s to him for some time. I told him that Emacs was a 37 year old tree, that it had carefully tended for all that time by a community of folks that really cared about doing things the right way, and the result was that it already knows how to do just about all the small tasks that you can imagine asking it to do. I started to demonstrate org sparse tree functionality[1], and he joked: "Yeah, yeah, but can it tell me what time sunset will be today?" So I fired up the info browser and started searching and in less than sixty seconds, we'd invoked M-x sunrise-sunset .[2] We didn't know our own longitude and latitude offhand, but it didn't matter: he was already impressed. After I assured him that this was a built in function, and that I'd really never heard of it until just now, he said that he would look into Emacs. :) --Dave [1] I should really make sure that I've memorized key bindings (well enough that enjoying a couple beers doesn't make me forget them) before trying this again. [2] On my work PC, this says "Cannot open load file: solar". Thank goodness it happened to work on my home laptop! (I won't fix this; no worries.)
Re: [O] converting people to Emacs and org-mode
Torsten Wagner writes: > Hi, > If I show org-mode to someone and if he/she points out the ugly graphic I > stop at that point. As I use a light text on dark background, I stop when they ask if there is something wrong with my monitor because the background is black... sigh. And I've not only given up trying to convert anybody to Emacs, I have also given up trying to explain why a dark background with light text is much better on the eyes. Too much inertia and bad practices out there unfortunately. -- : Eric S Fraga, GnuPG: 0xC89193D8FFFCF67D : in Emacs 24.3.50.1 and Org release_8.0-pre-473-gf20de0
Re: [O] converting people to Emacs and org-mode
* 42 147 wrote: > > Hello mailing list, Hi! > The question is the title: have you been able to convert many people to > Emacs / org-mode? I am not quite sure how many people actually switched to Emacs/Org-mode. However, I have seen many open mouths by showing simply the basic (tables, babel, ...)[1]. This heavily depends on the background of the person (programmer, manager, ...). I recognised that I got very cool reactions on Memacs[2] which enriches my agenda with so much great stuff. With Memacs, I am able to tell quite exactly what happened when and I can correlate tasks with web pages visited, phone calls done, and so forth. However, I got the feeling that people really do want to have such an environment (because of the advantages of its featureset) but most of them are afraid of the set-up process and the learning curve. Not everybody wants (or is able) to invest time to learn Emacs/Org-mode. Last autumn, I had the pleasure to conduct a 12h-workshop at our university with a bunch of very interested people. Everybody added his/her own requirements and the feedback was quite good. I guess that they all switched to Org-mode. Next week, there is an event called Grazer Linuxtage[3] which is the largest open source event in Austria. Last year, I presented Org-mode using [1]. This year, I am planning to concentrate on workflows[4]. I will ask the audience to tell me workflow examples they are coping with in daily life and show them, how to accomplish this using Org-mode (or give pointers to features I did not try by myself). Bring your own workflow is my motto. Opportunities like this are great to get people in touch with Emacs/Org-mode. Two years ago, somebody shortly presented Org-mode basics during a Python talk. This was my introduction to this great tool :-) 1. https://github.com/novoid/org-mode-workshop/blob/master/featureshow/org-mode-teaser.org 2. see signature below 3. http://linuxtage.at (German) 4. http://glt13-programm.linuxtage.at/events/161.de.html -- mail|git|SVN|photos|postings|SMS|phonecalls|RSS|CSV|XML to Org-mode: > get Memacs from https://github.com/novoid/Memacs < https://github.com/novoid/extract_pdf_annotations_to_orgmode + more on github
Re: [O] converting people to Emacs and org-mode
* Suvayu Ali wrote: > > Personally I think, any attempts at conversion is futile. I agree only for cases, where the person does not have issues with the current editor/workflow. > Just like real religion, choosing an editor is an immensely > personal decision if editing text (in whatever form, source code, > or prose) is a major part of your day. >From my experience, I do have to disagree in this point. *Most* people do not care at all, which editor they are using. Most people did not spend a reasonable time on the decision which tools they are using. The issue for most people is that there is a change of habits, not a change of editor. Only a small percentage of people really do care about a specific product. The others are happy to switch in case they see a certain amount of benefits. Without any proper set of benefits, it's a religious war, I agree. In case of Emacs, there is *always* a proper set of benefits if you are willing to learn this monster IMHO :-) -- mail|git|SVN|photos|postings|SMS|phonecalls|RSS|CSV|XML to Org-mode: > get Memacs from https://github.com/novoid/Memacs < https://github.com/novoid/extract_pdf_annotations_to_orgmode + more on github
Re: [O] converting people to Emacs and org-mode
Last fall I wrote a very simple elnode based web server which allows for Org-mode files to be viewed and edited through a web browser. http://thread.gmane.org/gmane.emacs.orgmode/58773/focus=61752 It seems relevant to this discussion. I haven't touched the code in some time, so it may need to be updated to work with a current Org-mode (although it did use the new exporter). I've had a version running on my home server continuously since the fall, and find it is the only way I can get non-Emacs people to edit Org-mode files. Cheers, "Sebastien Vauban" writes: > Hi Christopher, > > Christopher Allan Webber wrote: >> Eric Abrahamsen writes: >>> Russell Adams writes: >>> My experience has been that after watching me manage a project in Org for a few weeks, I have customers beg me to help them install it on their PC. I've had quite a few converts through working together and by example. >>> >>> Perhaps the web incarnations of org could help here too. Say the manager >>> of a small group project were able to create a web-version of an agenda, >>> and project members could filter that by clicking on javascript-enabled >>> versions of tags corresponding to their TODOs, and even click the TODOs >>> to change state, that could be a nice introduction to project management >>> in Org. It might require too much org functionality to be re-written in >>> javascript though? Dunno. >> >> I think a web application that allowed for >> orgmode-as-a-group-todo-management-system thing would be huge. It would >> require a lot of thinking of how to approach it in a way that would be >> nice and make sense. I'm not really sure what it would look like. But >> hook that up to git and you'd have a really interesting bug tracking >> system. > > I guess it should be in the spirit of configurable organizers like the > TiddlyWiki based GTD systems (see http://www.tiddlywiki.com/): > > - MPTW (MonkeyPirateTiddlyWiki) :: http://mptw.tiddlyspot.com/ > - mGSD :: http://mgsd.tiddlyspot.com/demo3.html and > http://thinkcreatesolve.biz/mGSDEnhancements.html > - D-cubed > - tbGTD :: http://tbgtd.tiddlyspot.com/ > > That is the killer brother application for Org, for sure. > >> There was that relevant GSoC project, but I'd be interested in this >> happening in python or similar. Now that we have the standard for >> orgmode as a file format... > > Best regards, > Seb -- Eric Schulte http://cs.unm.edu/~eschulte
Re: [O] converting people to Emacs and org-mode
Hi, 42 147 writes: > However, on the issue of tutorials, I did save my entire IM logs. It might > be an interesting presentation technique -- to read a real, natural > step-by-step working through of Emacs with someone completely computer > illiterate. I would love to read something like this! One of my favorite Go books is "Kage's Secret Chronicles of Handicap Go". This is a dialogue between two Go players with different tastes and styles, weaknesses and strengths. Readers are always entertained and learn a lot, just because the informal chatting contains so much useful (though indirect) information on how players "reads" the game. http://www.amazon.com/Kages-Secret-Chronicles-Handicap-Go/dp/0870403869 IM logs on learning Org might tell a lot on how users "reads" their Emacs/Org interface. Good idea :) -- Bastien
Re: [O] converting people to Emacs and org-mode
John, Tutorials like the ones you mentioned would be very much appreciated. After 5 months of learning about org-mode I am definitely still a noob. The manual looks great if you've already got a foot in the door, but for me it's been hard to know what direction to start learning in. ,Douglas Douglas Lewan Shubert Ticketing (201) 489-8600 ext 224 If the majority of cooking accidents happen in the kitchen, then why don't we just cook in other rooms? -Original Message- From: emacs-orgmode-bounces+dougl=shubertticketing@gnu.org [mailto:emacs-orgmode-bounces+dougl=shubertticketing@gnu.org] On Behalf Of John Hendy Sent: Tuesday, 2013 April 09 18:27 To: 42 147 Cc: emacs-orgmode Subject: Re: [O] converting people to Emacs and org-mode On Tue, Apr 9, 2013 at 3:10 AM, 42 147 wrote: > > Hello mailing list, > > This might be considered off-topic. > > The question is the title: have you been able to convert many people to > Emacs / org-mode? Are converts all programmers, or those versed in > programming? -- Or have you converted non-programmers, e.g., anyone who > edits text for a living? I work at a large company with a fairly skewed age distribution (to the upper end). Many just won't pick it up, but I definitely get some head turns from others. I had a manager see me taking notes at a meeting once and we went through the process of setting it up for him on his computer. Windows idiosyncrasies do make the process harder for really new users as it can be frustrating to both learn a completely new program with finger-wrenching keystrokes *and* to constantly troubleshoot the Windows-specific aspects of why that tutorial you just tried to follow is not reproducible. I've been meaning to make some tutorials trying to mimic real-life use-cases that might justify picking up Org-mode. Some ideas: - Walk through creation of a graph-heavy presentation in both PPT and Org-mode/Beamer - Present the case where you get sent a couple additional data points - Show the tedious nature of updating the Excel data, updating all plots, and copying/pasting into PPT - Show how if you update your csv you can simply re-export the Org document and have them included - Report writing - I have to write semi-annual reports on any projects - Word would require a lot of formatting stuff, assuming the data you want is copy/pastable from other documents - *Everything* is in Org-mode for me (daily notes, reports, and weekly team meeting presentations) - Show how I can easily copy/paste from Org docs into a report while simply changing minimal text (mostly alignment and :width args) - Notes/todo management (separate apps vs. having everything in one place) - Just came up today: project management. I think showing MS Project vs. Org + taskjuggler would be quite interesting for folks. If you're already tracking todos in Org, making a project management tool out of it is not that big of a step. I think tutorials like this might help the process. In a lot of instances, the initial interest gets hung up on "Wait, *what* is the program?" as they try to wrestle with the mono-space font looking program running. Making the sell, at least intuitively, might be a lot easier if one could show Org compared to real-life common alternative methods. The comfort folks have with their other methods is often based on historical reasons and the sunk-cost fallacy.[1] There wasn't a lot of reasoning that went into it -- it was simply taught as "the way" and so that's what was adopted. My company preaches Minitab as part of their Six Sigma/LEAN training. I didn't want to leave Org, so I literally taught myself R so I wouldn't have to be married to Minitab :) Oh, and to your actual question (sorry for the digression), I'm a Mechanical Engineer working in product development. I had one intro level Java class in college and am certainly *not* a programmer. I went on a quest for the perfect note-taking/todo manager at various points in my working career (a short ~5 years at this point) and learned Emacs specifically for Org-mode! I may be more geeky than average compared to colleagues... but if you have a piece of software that can get someone to learn Emacs just to use it... that's a win in my book :) John P.S. I was using TiddlyWiki and the modified version, TeamTasks (http://teamtasks.tiddlyspace.com) before and it took two attempts before I finally stuck with Org. [1] http://youarenotsosmart.com/2011/03/25/the-sunk-cost-fallacy/
Re: [O] converting people to Emacs and org-mode
My comment is off topic here, but couldn't help it ... On Tue, Apr 09, 2013 at 07:59:08PM -0400, 42 147 wrote: > It was very interesting psychologically to remind oneself of this state of > mind. To most people a program is a shortcut icon on the desktop, not a > bunch of disparate files that coalesce into something like Emacs. There was an ad-hoc survey by some news show, BBC Click I think, which asked people to distinguish what they understand by a web browser and a search engine. About half thought they were one and the same. ;) -- Suvayu Open source is the future. It sets us free.
Re: [O] converting people to Emacs and org-mode
> Not when they're your employees! > Only half joking, +1 for the serious half. Totalitarianism is underrated. > this confirms that different people have wildly different usage patterns That is absolutely true. I didn't care about org-mode until a friend showed me his Shakespeare.org file. I pressed tab on "Shakespeare" and it was like hearing the Master of Puppets opening riff for the first time. I've had one successful convert of a total non-programmer. He was studying German, and I'd watch him in Firefox with ten tabs open trying to translate a passage of Kritik der Reinen Vernunft. So then I showed him how to split the screen in Emacs -- German original on top, English on the bottom -- and how to fetch definitions on the fly from a dictionary server. Got him hooked in a second. I agree that working someone through Windows poses unique problems. I had to debase myself and fire up Windows for the first time in years. However, on the issue of tutorials, I did save my entire IM logs. It might be an interesting presentation technique -- to read a real, natural step-by-step working through of Emacs with someone completely computer illiterate. It took two hours to get him to map a shortcut to a particular file and get it to work. And there is so much knowledge and intuition we take for granted: for example, to a lot of computer illiterate people, a find-file function is "magical." So is a .emacs. He didn't understand why he could newline arbitrarily before inserting new code, e.g., "So wait, why is this file just empty? How does writing stuff here do anything to Emacs?" It was very interesting psychologically to remind oneself of this state of mind. To most people a program is a shortcut icon on the desktop, not a bunch of disparate files that coalesce into something like Emacs.
Re: [O] converting people to Emacs and org-mode
On Tue, Apr 9, 2013 at 3:10 AM, 42 147 wrote: > > Hello mailing list, > > This might be considered off-topic. > > The question is the title: have you been able to convert many people to > Emacs / org-mode? Are converts all programmers, or those versed in > programming? -- Or have you converted non-programmers, e.g., anyone who > edits text for a living? I work at a large company with a fairly skewed age distribution (to the upper end). Many just won't pick it up, but I definitely get some head turns from others. I had a manager see me taking notes at a meeting once and we went through the process of setting it up for him on his computer. Windows idiosyncrasies do make the process harder for really new users as it can be frustrating to both learn a completely new program with finger-wrenching keystrokes *and* to constantly troubleshoot the Windows-specific aspects of why that tutorial you just tried to follow is not reproducible. I've been meaning to make some tutorials trying to mimic real-life use-cases that might justify picking up Org-mode. Some ideas: - Walk through creation of a graph-heavy presentation in both PPT and Org-mode/Beamer - Present the case where you get sent a couple additional data points - Show the tedious nature of updating the Excel data, updating all plots, and copying/pasting into PPT - Show how if you update your csv you can simply re-export the Org document and have them included - Report writing - I have to write semi-annual reports on any projects - Word would require a lot of formatting stuff, assuming the data you want is copy/pastable from other documents - *Everything* is in Org-mode for me (daily notes, reports, and weekly team meeting presentations) - Show how I can easily copy/paste from Org docs into a report while simply changing minimal text (mostly alignment and :width args) - Notes/todo management (separate apps vs. having everything in one place) - Just came up today: project management. I think showing MS Project vs. Org + taskjuggler would be quite interesting for folks. If you're already tracking todos in Org, making a project management tool out of it is not that big of a step. I think tutorials like this might help the process. In a lot of instances, the initial interest gets hung up on "Wait, *what* is the program?" as they try to wrestle with the mono-space font looking program running. Making the sell, at least intuitively, might be a lot easier if one could show Org compared to real-life common alternative methods. The comfort folks have with their other methods is often based on historical reasons and the sunk-cost fallacy.[1] There wasn't a lot of reasoning that went into it -- it was simply taught as "the way" and so that's what was adopted. My company preaches Minitab as part of their Six Sigma/LEAN training. I didn't want to leave Org, so I literally taught myself R so I wouldn't have to be married to Minitab :) Oh, and to your actual question (sorry for the digression), I'm a Mechanical Engineer working in product development. I had one intro level Java class in college and am certainly *not* a programmer. I went on a quest for the perfect note-taking/todo manager at various points in my working career (a short ~5 years at this point) and learned Emacs specifically for Org-mode! I may be more geeky than average compared to colleagues... but if you have a piece of software that can get someone to learn Emacs just to use it... that's a win in my book :) John P.S. I was using TiddlyWiki and the modified version, TeamTasks (http://teamtasks.tiddlyspace.com) before and it took two attempts before I finally stuck with Org. [1] http://youarenotsosmart.com/2011/03/25/the-sunk-cost-fallacy/
Re: [O] converting people to Emacs and org-mode
Dnia 2013-04-09, o godz. 09:42:20 Gunnar Wolf napisał(a): > I won't talk about the people I have (not yet) converted, but about > the person who converted me: I am a long-time Emacs user (got > initiated back in 1983, being 6 or 7 years old, at the university > where my father worked, works, and where I now work as well). We spent > many Friday nights at the terminal room, he was working on some > proceedings book compilation and I was getting exposed to computers > when few had chance. So, yes, I got started on TeX and Emacs at quite > an early age. And they deformed my mind forever, it seems. And I thought *I* was a geek... Cool story, though. Best, -- Marcin Borkowski http://octd.wmi.amu.edu.pl/en/Marcin_Borkowski Adam Mickiewicz University
Re: [O] converting people to Emacs and org-mode
Dnia 2013-04-09, o godz. 04:10:07 42 147 napisał(a): > Hello mailing list, > > This might be considered off-topic. > > The question is the title: have you been able to convert many people > to Emacs / org-mode? Are converts all programmers, or those versed in > programming? -- Or have you converted non-programmers, e.g., anyone > who edits text for a living? An interesting (maybe?) story: I did convert a friend to Emacs. We work on proofreading and typesetting papers for a journal, which means massive (and sometimes quite repetitive) editing. I cooked a small Elisp utility which gets a list of lists; the car of each of them is a regex and the cdr is a list of possible substitutions for it. (For example, something like "\([0-9]\{4\}\)" (w/o backslashes escaped here) might get translated into "\1 year" or "year \1" (this is not the best example due to English syntax - in Polish the word order is much more flexible - but you get the idea). My function walks through the document, highlights any caught fragments and lets the user to press TAB until the desired substitution appears. It's not perfect, but it helps us *a lot*. When the friend saw it, he finally installed Emacs (after being harassed by me for some 2+ years;)). Now I'm in the process of showing him Org-mode. Interestingly, the feature which got him the most excited was clocking; this confirms that different people have wildly different usage patterns (I guess for most users clocking is completely unnecessary). BTW: he's not a programmer (though very skilled at LaTeX). > It's impossible for me to have a conversation these days without > referring to org-mode. Since I use it for practically everything, > there's no way to avoid raising the topic. However, I do find it > difficult to convert people. I send them video captures showing off > the features, give real-time demonstrations, etc., and offer to work > them through the installation and lead them up the steep Emacs > learning curve -- but thus far, I've only gotten a couple people to > adopt it. And that after relentless advocacy. I know that feeling from a hobby of mine; boardgamers are also (very often) "evangelists" (me too). Authorities on the subject usually warn people not to do that;). > Anyway, apologies if this seems to clutter the already highly active > mailing list. But I do think questions of proselytization (because we > /are/ talking religion here) is important. Ha ha, one of my favorite inside jokes with my friends/colleagues is me saying "I'm not particularly religious, sometimes I use Emacs and sometimes Vim". (Of course, only those who know I'm a devout Catholic get the joke. And in reality I use Vim very rarely, and almost never on my computer.) > 42 Best, -- Marcin Borkowski http://octd.wmi.amu.edu.pl/en/Marcin_Borkowski Adam Mickiewicz University
Re: [O] converting people to Emacs and org-mode
Please let me know if you have any problems with the ikiwiki plugin or any feature requests. I haven't been too active with it lately, but I'm still around. :) Cheers, Chris On Tue, Apr 9, 2013 at 11:33 AM, Loyall, David wrote: > > Subject: Re: [O] converting people to Emacs and org-mode > [snip] > > Perhaps the web incarnations of org could help here too. > > I plan to bring attention to Emacs by publishing a wiki on our intranet. > > ikiwiki[1] is a simple perl based wiki compiler. You maintain a tree of > text documents in VCS, compile them into a network of linked HTML documents > on demand (or on commit via a hook) and publish them on any http server (or > whatever). > > Ikiwiki has an exporter framework that invokes different tools to export > (or compile) different file formats. For example, it is trivial to > configure it to render foo.lisp and bar.c as foo.lisp.html and bar.c.html, > which contain pretty renderings of the code. > > There is an org-mode plugin[2] for ikiwiki that I am experimenting with. > It invokes an Emacs session to call the org exporter. > > Like most wikis, ikiwiki also allows users to create and edit content via > http. (Being perl, ikiwiki uses (modern) CGI.) The interface is a simple > HTML text area. > > I intend to allow users to alter .org files via ikiwiki's web interface > and have ikiwiki run them through the org exporter after each save (which > is also a VCS commit). > > When users start to feel limited by the textbox, I'll suggest that they > use Emacs and grant them direct file access to the VCS that stores all the > .org files. (git in my case.) > > Wish me luck. :) > > Incidentally, I'd find an org-mode vs. Microsoft OneNote feature > comparison matrix useful. Anybody got that? > > Cheers, > --Dave > > [1] http://ikiwiki.info/ > [2] https://github.com/chrismgray/ikiwiki-org-plugin > > > >
Re: [O] converting people to Emacs and org-mode
> Subject: Re: [O] converting people to Emacs and org-mode [snip] > Perhaps the web incarnations of org could help here too. I plan to bring attention to Emacs by publishing a wiki on our intranet. ikiwiki[1] is a simple perl based wiki compiler. You maintain a tree of text documents in VCS, compile them into a network of linked HTML documents on demand (or on commit via a hook) and publish them on any http server (or whatever). Ikiwiki has an exporter framework that invokes different tools to export (or compile) different file formats. For example, it is trivial to configure it to render foo.lisp and bar.c as foo.lisp.html and bar.c.html, which contain pretty renderings of the code. There is an org-mode plugin[2] for ikiwiki that I am experimenting with. It invokes an Emacs session to call the org exporter. Like most wikis, ikiwiki also allows users to create and edit content via http. (Being perl, ikiwiki uses (modern) CGI.) The interface is a simple HTML text area. I intend to allow users to alter .org files via ikiwiki's web interface and have ikiwiki run them through the org exporter after each save (which is also a VCS commit). When users start to feel limited by the textbox, I'll suggest that they use Emacs and grant them direct file access to the VCS that stores all the .org files. (git in my case.) Wish me luck. :) Incidentally, I'd find an org-mode vs. Microsoft OneNote feature comparison matrix useful. Anybody got that? Cheers, --Dave [1] http://ikiwiki.info/ [2] https://github.com/chrismgray/ikiwiki-org-plugin
Re: [O] converting people to Emacs and org-mode
Hi Christopher, Christopher Allan Webber wrote: > Eric Abrahamsen writes: >> Russell Adams writes: >> >>> My experience has been that after watching me manage a project in Org >>> for a few weeks, I have customers beg me to help them install it on >>> their PC. I've had quite a few converts through working together and >>> by example. >> >> Perhaps the web incarnations of org could help here too. Say the manager >> of a small group project were able to create a web-version of an agenda, >> and project members could filter that by clicking on javascript-enabled >> versions of tags corresponding to their TODOs, and even click the TODOs >> to change state, that could be a nice introduction to project management >> in Org. It might require too much org functionality to be re-written in >> javascript though? Dunno. > > I think a web application that allowed for > orgmode-as-a-group-todo-management-system thing would be huge. It would > require a lot of thinking of how to approach it in a way that would be > nice and make sense. I'm not really sure what it would look like. But > hook that up to git and you'd have a really interesting bug tracking > system. I guess it should be in the spirit of configurable organizers like the TiddlyWiki based GTD systems (see http://www.tiddlywiki.com/): - MPTW (MonkeyPirateTiddlyWiki) :: http://mptw.tiddlyspot.com/ - mGSD :: http://mgsd.tiddlyspot.com/demo3.html and http://thinkcreatesolve.biz/mGSDEnhancements.html - D-cubed - tbGTD :: http://tbgtd.tiddlyspot.com/ That is the killer brother application for Org, for sure. > There was that relevant GSoC project, but I'd be interested in this > happening in python or similar. Now that we have the standard for > orgmode as a file format... Best regards, Seb -- Sebastien Vauban
Re: [O] converting people to Emacs and org-mode
Eric Abrahamsen writes: > Russell Adams writes: > >> My experience has been that after watching me manage a project in Org >> for a few weeks, I have customers beg me to help them install it on >> their PC. I've had quite a few converts through working together and >> by example. > > Perhaps the web incarnations of org could help here too. Say the manager > of a small group project were able to create a web-version of an agenda, > and project members could filter that by clicking on javascript-enabled > versions of tags corresponding to their TODOs, and even click the TODOs > to change state, that could be a nice introduction to project management > in Org. It might require too much org functionality to be re-written in > javascript though? Dunno. > > E I think a web application that allowed for orgmode-as-a-group-todo-management-system thing would be huge. It would require a lot of thinking of how to approach it in a way that would be nice and make sense. I'm not really sure what it would look like. But hook that up to git and you'd have a really interesting bug tracking system. There was that relevant GSoC project, but I'd be interested in this happening in python or similar. Now that we have the standard for orgmode as a file format...
Re: [O] converting people to Emacs and org-mode
42 147 dijo [Tue, Apr 09, 2013 at 04:10:07AM -0400]: > > Hello mailing list, > > This might be considered off-topic. > > The question is the title: have you been able to convert many people to > Emacs / org-mode? Are converts all programmers, or those versed in > programming? -- Or have you converted non-programmers, e.g., anyone who > edits text for a living? > (...) I won't talk about the people I have (not yet) converted, but about the person who converted me: I am a long-time Emacs user (got initiated back in 1983, being 6 or 7 years old, at the university where my father worked, works, and where I now work as well). We spent many Friday nights at the terminal room, he was working on some proceedings book compilation and I was getting exposed to computers when few had chance. So, yes, I got started on TeX and Emacs at quite an early age. And they deformed my mind forever, it seems. One of the factors that led me to switch to a Linux environment in the mid-90s was that both tools I cherished (but hadn't touched in almost ten years) were readily available. And while I did nothing with TeX for many years (using LyX for the occasional writeup), Emacs became very early part of my sysadmin tools, and later, my programming buddy. Still more years passed. Between 2009 and 2011, I edited a book for the university — «Construcción colaborativa del conocimiento», studying the free software / free culture movements. The process was most interesting, but quite painful - We did the inter-author collaboration using a Web framework, and it was up to me to convert the final version to LaTeX and typeset it adequately. In the end, we got quite a good result¹, which you can download if you find interesting (written in Spanish). Talking about the woes in the conversion, an anthropologist (and a very good friend of mine) suggested me to take a look at org-mode. I had previously just heard about it and dismissed it because I can perfectly do without yet-another-todo-list-manager (which is what I thought Org was). But after he showed me the ease with which he writes his articles and was halfway through his doctoral thesis, intermixing LaTeX bits, exporting to PDF and HTML, easily producing the Beamer slides I took so much pride in having mastered... I got converted right away. That was just six months ago. I now write all of my articles and presentations in Org, and am halfway through (yet another) book. ¹ http://seminario.edusol.info/
Re: [O] converting people to Emacs and org-mode
Russell Adams writes: > My experience has been that after watching me manage a project in Org > for a few weeks, I have customers beg me to help them install it on > their PC. I've had quite a few converts through working together and > by example. Perhaps the web incarnations of org could help here too. Say the manager of a small group project were able to create a web-version of an agenda, and project members could filter that by clicking on javascript-enabled versions of tags corresponding to their TODOs, and even click the TODOs to change state, that could be a nice introduction to project management in Org. It might require too much org functionality to be re-written in javascript though? Dunno. E
Re: [O] converting people to Emacs and org-mode
Hi Thorsten, Thorsten Jolitz writes: > I already asked the editors - legally it would be possible to republish > on Worg. I'll ask them again if its allowed to cut the fully formated > article from the magazine-pdf and upload this 4 page pdf on Worg. Better to add it somewhere else and create a link to it from Worg, because anything in Worg needs to be GFDL. -- Bastien
Re: [O] converting people to Emacs and org-mode
Hi, If I show org-mode to someone and if he/she points out the ugly graphic I stop at that point. If the reaction is more like "Hey how did you do that?" I might have a potential candidate. Thus, for me it comes down to two groups the once who need a graphical pleasant system which hides away all technical details and the once who like to be in control of what they are doing. A spin-off question to this thread would be, how to make joints between these two groups? Best, Torsten On 9 April 2013 12:30, Thorsten Jolitz wrote: > Moritz Ulrich writes: > > > I'm interested in the article too. Maybe you can arrange something > > with the editors if even the creator of org-mode is interested in the > > article? > > I already sent the pdf version of the magazine in a PM to the creator of > Org-mode so he can decide if its worth the pain convert it from plain > text to Org-mode and put it on Worg. > > Its not really special and closely oriented at the structure of the new > orgmode website. Its more the big audience I could reach that made the > whole thing interesting. > > PS > I already asked the editors - legally it would be possible to republish > on Worg. I'll ask them again if its allowed to cut the fully formated > article from the magazine-pdf and upload this 4 page pdf on Worg. > > -- > cheers, > Thorsten > > >
Re: [O] converting people to Emacs and org-mode
Moritz Ulrich writes: > I'm interested in the article too. Maybe you can arrange something > with the editors if even the creator of org-mode is interested in the > article? I already sent the pdf version of the magazine in a PM to the creator of Org-mode so he can decide if its worth the pain convert it from plain text to Org-mode and put it on Worg. Its not really special and closely oriented at the structure of the new orgmode website. Its more the big audience I could reach that made the whole thing interesting. PS I already asked the editors - legally it would be possible to republish on Worg. I'll ask them again if its allowed to cut the fully formated article from the magazine-pdf and upload this 4 page pdf on Worg. -- cheers, Thorsten
Re: [O] converting people to Emacs and org-mode
I'm interested in the article too. Maybe you can arrange something with the editors if even the creator of org-mode is interested in the article? On Tue, Apr 9, 2013 at 10:51 AM, Carsten Dominik wrote: > > On 9 apr. 2013, at 10:46, Thorsten Jolitz wrote: > >> 42 147 writes: >> >>> This might be considered off-topic. >> >> Maybe not? I know of a fantastic Lisp dialect and >> web/database programming-environment out there >> >> , >> | PicoLisp >> | http://picolisp.com/5000/!wiki?home >> ` >> >> that suffers exactly from the rather low conversion rate of people to >> it, which is kind of hard to explain given its quality. >> >> But maybe Paul Graham is right in >> http://www.paulgraham.com/popular.html, at least with regards to >> programming languages: >> >> ,- >> | A friend of mine once told an eminent operating systems expert that he >> | wanted to design a really good programming language. The expert told him >> | that it would be a waste of time, that programming languages don't >> | become popular or unpopular based on their merits, and so no matter how >> | good his language was, no one would use it. At least, that was what had >> | happened to the language he had designed. >> `- >> >> And just like I try to spell the word about amazing PicoLisp with this >> email, I wrote an Org-mode article in the student magazine of my former >> German distance university with the title >> >> ,-- >> | Self-organization with Org-mode for distance students >> `-- > > > I would be interested to read this article. Can you make it available? > > - Carsten > >> >> (in German) >> >> Its in >> >> ,--- >> | "SprachRohr"-Ausgabe 04/2012 FernUni Hagen >> `--- >> >> and the cover can be seen here: >> http://www.fernstudis.de/node/1203 >> >> unfortunately only the cover, since download is restricted to >> immatriculated students, but I reached some 50-60k readers with this >> article and recieved very positive feedback, I cite from an anonymous >> fellow distance student: >> >> , >> | [...] ich gehöre normalerweise nicht zu den Leserbriefschreibern, aber hier >> | muss ich einfach mal ein ganz großes Lob loswerden: Vielen Dank für den >> | Artikel über Emacs Org-Mode - der erste Artikel [...] der mich wirklich >> | weiterbringt und ganz sehr zum "Weiterforschen" anregt. Org-Mode scheint >> | genau das Werkzeug zu sein, nach dem ich lange gesucht habe. >> ` >> >> (in English more or less: "normally I don't write reader comments, but >> Org-mode seems exactly the tool I was looking for and I feel very >> motivated to learn more about it after reading your article") >> >> So maybe there are ways to reach more people with less effort than in >> one-to-one conversion talks? Although, even with 50k readers, I will of >> course never know if I really achieved a single conversion. >> >> -- >> cheers, >> Thorsten >> >> > >
Re: [O] converting people to Emacs and org-mode
My experience has been that after watching me manage a project in Org for a few weeks, I have customers beg me to help them install it on their PC. I've had quite a few converts through working together and by example. My $0.02. Thanks. -- Russell Adamsrlad...@adamsinfoserv.com PGP Key ID: 0x1160DCB3 http://www.adamsinfoserv.com/ Fingerprint:1723 D8CA 4280 1EC9 557F 66E8 1154 E018 1160 DCB3
Re: [O] converting people to Emacs and org-mode
Hi John, interesting topic. My take on this is that *individual* attempts can be deceptive (for reasons that Suvayu raised), but *collective* attempts are always somehow successful. By "individual attempts" I mean face-to-face demos and preaching, which can help some Emacs users discover how they could use Emacs more effectively for notes and TODO lists, but will surely fail at convincing non-Emacs users. (Oh, btw, the above is not entirely true: I recently participated to a Vim-dedicated informal group, where I picked up many useful Vim tricks, and I was surprised to see that many Vimers just love Org's tables --- to the point that they have tricks to display Org tables in Vim buffers...) By "collective attempts", I mean contributions to the vast pool of Org tutorials/demos/screencasts. This is how we ensure potential users will get an impression that "this is easy to do with Org", which is the main feeling you need to have to test it. Think of it as "low floor, high ceilings": power users push for higher ceilings, while neebies push for low floors. We can deal with high ceilings by interacting on the list, but we are better at lowering floors by contributing with tutorials, blog entries, etc. Just try to write something simple, it may convert more people you know that oral preaching near the coffee machine :) My 2 cents of course, -- Bastien
Re: [O] converting people to Emacs and org-mode
On 9 apr. 2013, at 10:46, Thorsten Jolitz wrote: > 42 147 writes: > >> This might be considered off-topic. > > Maybe not? I know of a fantastic Lisp dialect and > web/database programming-environment out there > > , > | PicoLisp > | http://picolisp.com/5000/!wiki?home > ` > > that suffers exactly from the rather low conversion rate of people to > it, which is kind of hard to explain given its quality. > > But maybe Paul Graham is right in > http://www.paulgraham.com/popular.html, at least with regards to > programming languages: > > ,- > | A friend of mine once told an eminent operating systems expert that he > | wanted to design a really good programming language. The expert told him > | that it would be a waste of time, that programming languages don't > | become popular or unpopular based on their merits, and so no matter how > | good his language was, no one would use it. At least, that was what had > | happened to the language he had designed. > `- > > And just like I try to spell the word about amazing PicoLisp with this > email, I wrote an Org-mode article in the student magazine of my former > German distance university with the title > > ,-- > | Self-organization with Org-mode for distance students > `-- I would be interested to read this article. Can you make it available? - Carsten > > (in German) > > Its in > > ,--- > | "SprachRohr"-Ausgabe 04/2012 FernUni Hagen > `--- > > and the cover can be seen here: > http://www.fernstudis.de/node/1203 > > unfortunately only the cover, since download is restricted to > immatriculated students, but I reached some 50-60k readers with this > article and recieved very positive feedback, I cite from an anonymous > fellow distance student: > > , > | [...] ich gehöre normalerweise nicht zu den Leserbriefschreibern, aber hier > | muss ich einfach mal ein ganz großes Lob loswerden: Vielen Dank für den > | Artikel über Emacs Org-Mode - der erste Artikel [...] der mich wirklich > | weiterbringt und ganz sehr zum "Weiterforschen" anregt. Org-Mode scheint > | genau das Werkzeug zu sein, nach dem ich lange gesucht habe. > ` > > (in English more or less: "normally I don't write reader comments, but > Org-mode seems exactly the tool I was looking for and I feel very > motivated to learn more about it after reading your article") > > So maybe there are ways to reach more people with less effort than in > one-to-one conversion talks? Although, even with 50k readers, I will of > course never know if I really achieved a single conversion. > > -- > cheers, > Thorsten > >
Re: [O] converting people to Emacs and org-mode
On 9 apr. 2013, at 10:10, 42 147 wrote: > > Hello mailing list, > > This might be considered off-topic. > > The question is the title: have you been able to convert many people to > Emacs / org-mode? Are converts all programmers, or those versed in > programming? -- Or have you converted non-programmers, e.g., anyone who > edits text for a living? I have found that even without me trying to convert people, a lot of people are picking up Org-mode, if they are using Emacs already. I think that in my working environment, pretty much everyone who is using Emacs at least occasionally has heard about Org, and most of them are using it at least for something. Not the full suit of features, mind you, but brain storming or document drafting, certainly. Trying to convert people who are outside the reach of Emacs is pretty futile, unless they are programmer types who easily take up new tools. I have heard a number of success stories of people who try to be writers and who find that sticking ideas and snippets into a re-arrabgable outline works *much* better for them than any other system they have tried. A few examples: http://awarewriter.wordpress.com/2012/03/04/org-mode-for-writing-structure-focus/ http://awarewriter.wordpress.com/2012/02/27/monday-musings-org-mode-for-writing-ii/ http://emacslife.wordpress.com/2011/07/07/org-mode-and-novel-writing/ http://scienceblogs.com/gregladen/2011/07/22/emacs-for-writers-org-mode/ - Carsten > > It's impossible for me to have a conversation these days without > referring to org-mode. Since I use it for practically everything, > there's no way to avoid raising the topic. However, I do find it > difficult to convert people. I send them video captures showing off the > features, give real-time demonstrations, etc., and offer to work them > through the installation and lead them up the steep Emacs learning curve > -- but thus far, I've only gotten a couple people to adopt it. And that > after relentless advocacy. > > Anyway, apologies if this seems to clutter the already highly active > mailing list. But I do think questions of proselytization (because we > /are/ talking religion here) is important. > > 42 > >
Re: [O] converting people to Emacs and org-mode
42 147 writes: > This might be considered off-topic. Maybe not? I know of a fantastic Lisp dialect and web/database programming-environment out there , | PicoLisp | http://picolisp.com/5000/!wiki?home ` that suffers exactly from the rather low conversion rate of people to it, which is kind of hard to explain given its quality. But maybe Paul Graham is right in http://www.paulgraham.com/popular.html, at least with regards to programming languages: ,- | A friend of mine once told an eminent operating systems expert that he | wanted to design a really good programming language. The expert told him | that it would be a waste of time, that programming languages don't | become popular or unpopular based on their merits, and so no matter how | good his language was, no one would use it. At least, that was what had | happened to the language he had designed. `- And just like I try to spell the word about amazing PicoLisp with this email, I wrote an Org-mode article in the student magazine of my former German distance university with the title ,-- | Self-organization with Org-mode for distance students `-- (in German) Its in ,--- | "SprachRohr"-Ausgabe 04/2012 FernUni Hagen `--- and the cover can be seen here: http://www.fernstudis.de/node/1203 unfortunately only the cover, since download is restricted to immatriculated students, but I reached some 50-60k readers with this article and recieved very positive feedback, I cite from an anonymous fellow distance student: , | [...] ich gehöre normalerweise nicht zu den Leserbriefschreibern, aber hier | muss ich einfach mal ein ganz großes Lob loswerden: Vielen Dank für den | Artikel über Emacs Org-Mode - der erste Artikel [...] der mich wirklich | weiterbringt und ganz sehr zum "Weiterforschen" anregt. Org-Mode scheint | genau das Werkzeug zu sein, nach dem ich lange gesucht habe. ` (in English more or less: "normally I don't write reader comments, but Org-mode seems exactly the tool I was looking for and I feel very motivated to learn more about it after reading your article") So maybe there are ways to reach more people with less effort than in one-to-one conversion talks? Although, even with 50k readers, I will of course never know if I really achieved a single conversion. -- cheers, Thorsten
Re: [O] converting people to Emacs and org-mode
Suvayu Ali writes: > On Tue, Apr 09, 2013 at 04:10:07AM -0400, 42 147 wrote: >> Anyway, apologies if this seems to clutter the already highly active >> mailing list. But I do think questions of proselytization (because we >> /are/ talking religion here) is important. > > I would say Org-mode users form the moderate demography among the > followers of the church of Emacs ;). > > Personally I think, any attempts at conversion is futile. Just like > real religion, choosing an editor is an immensely personal decision if > editing text (in whatever form, source code, or prose) is a major part > of your day. You should stop at mentioning and bragging about Org-mode; > leave the decision to try or switch to the other person. Not when they're your employees! Only half joking, Eric
Re: [O] converting people to Emacs and org-mode
On Tue, Apr 09, 2013 at 04:10:07AM -0400, 42 147 wrote: > Anyway, apologies if this seems to clutter the already highly active > mailing list. But I do think questions of proselytization (because we > /are/ talking religion here) is important. I would say Org-mode users form the moderate demography among the followers of the church of Emacs ;). Personally I think, any attempts at conversion is futile. Just like real religion, choosing an editor is an immensely personal decision if editing text (in whatever form, source code, or prose) is a major part of your day. You should stop at mentioning and bragging about Org-mode; leave the decision to try or switch to the other person. Just my 2¢ :) -- Suvayu Open source is the future. It sets us free.
[O] converting people to Emacs and org-mode
Hello mailing list, This might be considered off-topic. The question is the title: have you been able to convert many people to Emacs / org-mode? Are converts all programmers, or those versed in programming? -- Or have you converted non-programmers, e.g., anyone who edits text for a living? It's impossible for me to have a conversation these days without referring to org-mode. Since I use it for practically everything, there's no way to avoid raising the topic. However, I do find it difficult to convert people. I send them video captures showing off the features, give real-time demonstrations, etc., and offer to work them through the installation and lead them up the steep Emacs learning curve -- but thus far, I've only gotten a couple people to adopt it. And that after relentless advocacy. Anyway, apologies if this seems to clutter the already highly active mailing list. But I do think questions of proselytization (because we /are/ talking religion here) is important. 42