Re: [Orgmode] Re: org-mode tutorial questionaire
I keep my stuff in git too, but recently I have found Dropbox very useful. Once I discovered how to install it on my server it meant that all my config files were automatically kept in sync on my computers. in fact Dropbox is still great even if you don't run your own server. Git is still very useful for letting you easily go back if you make a mistake, or want to start over again from an earlier version. Even better, make a git repo in your dropbox directory. Great tastes that taste great together! (There's a valid question as to whether the git repo in dropbox should be a bare repo to facilitate pushing and pulling, or a working repo so that you can use it directly. Suggestions on this point are welcome). I have a .git repo in my org folder inside Dropbox. It's not a bare repo, but I do keep a bare repo on a server and I have a cron job that automatically does a commit and pushes to my bare repo once a day. Ian. ___ Emacs-orgmode mailing list Please use `Reply All' to send replies to the list. Emacs-orgmode@gnu.org http://lists.gnu.org/mailman/listinfo/emacs-orgmode
[Orgmode] Re: org-mode tutorial questionaire
On Wed, Mar 24 2010, Ian Barton wrote: I keep my stuff in git too, but recently I have found Dropbox very useful. Once I discovered how to install it on my server it meant that all my config files were automatically kept in sync on my computers. in fact Dropbox is still great even if you don't run your own server. Git is still very useful for letting you easily go back if you make a mistake, or want to start over again from an earlier version. Even better, make a git repo in your dropbox directory. Great tastes that taste great together! (There's a valid question as to whether the git repo in dropbox should be a bare repo to facilitate pushing and pulling, or a working repo so that you can use it directly. Suggestions on this point are welcome). /au -- Austin Frank http://aufrank.net GPG Public Key (D7398C2F): http://aufrank.net/personal.asc pgpjwWoCFRmzP.pgp Description: PGP signature ___ Emacs-orgmode mailing list Please use `Reply All' to send replies to the list. Emacs-orgmode@gnu.org http://lists.gnu.org/mailman/listinfo/emacs-orgmode
[Orgmode] Re: org-mode tutorial questionaire
Bernt Hansen be...@norang.ca writes: Richard Riley rileyrg...@gmail.com writes: Matt Lundin m...@imapmail.org writes: Hi Alex, Alexander Poslavsky alexander.poslav...@gmail.com writes: There is a new tutorial on worg: http://orgmode.org/worg/org-tutorials/ org4beginners.php. The idea is to write a tutorial for somebody who is new to org-mode. ... For everybody: -What kind of tutorial would be the most useful? -What in your experience people find confusing? Thanks for taking the time to put this on Worg. I wish I had had such a concise summary of the various flavors of emacs on different platforms when I started exploring org-mode. I was wondering if you could elaborate on the following. Are you suggesting that new users should never use M-x customize? As a general comment on this : I used to hand code all my customisations. And ran into terrible problems somewhere along the line. Now anything that has a customise interface, I use that interface and have had no such problems anymore. The downside of course is that your customisations are not grouped logically with comments -but, for me anyway, using the customisation interface lends itself to much more trustworthy code. I also use customize extensively -- wherever it is available. I don't have to worry about the exact syntax of the value of the variable - I can just use the customize interface and pick what I want and move on to more productive things. I used to hand code variables as Richard did but found I wasted a heck of a lot more time fiddling with the syntax of a variable doing that instead of just setting it and forgetting it with the customize interface. The customize interface that Carsten has put together also makes it easy to see all of the options for a variable in org-mode. Some variables need to be set before org-mode is loaded (when using setq) but as I understand it this isn't the case for customizations. Regards, Bernt PS. I keep my ~/.emacs - ~/git/emacs/emacs.el and ~/git/emacs/custom.el files in a git repository (~/git/emacs) so I can commit changes to these files and add meaningful comments about the reason for the change in the commit message. This lets me easily experiment with changing half a dozen variables and not worrying about remembering the old values in case I want to go back. Git has the information and it's easy to restore the old values for any point in the git history. This also lets me synchronize variable changes to my laptop so my on-the-road org-mode setup is identical to my workstation. As a side note to this is for those not familiar with git, its pretty simple to manage a remote git repo using ssh. When on the road or dealing with multiple PCs around the globe (!) this can be priceless. I maintain my own sparse repo on my mail server machine. Whenever I update my ~/.emacs.d/emacs-init.org file or my custom.el in the same dir I push it to the remote shh repo too. Handy as to then sync my laptop or the machine at work. Needless to say, all my org-files are in there too. The only thing that still taxes my pickled brain is when I need to merge. The git terminology for fast forwards etc confuses me each and every time ;) -- Google Talk : rileyrg...@googlemail.com http://www.google.com/talk ___ Emacs-orgmode mailing list Please use `Reply All' to send replies to the list. Emacs-orgmode@gnu.org http://lists.gnu.org/mailman/listinfo/emacs-orgmode
[Orgmode] Re: org-mode tutorial questionaire
Richard Riley rile...@googlemail.com writes: Bernt Hansen be...@norang.ca writes: Richard Riley rileyrg...@gmail.com writes: I keep my ~/.emacs - ~/git/emacs/emacs.el and ~/git/emacs/custom.el files in a git repository (~/git/emacs) so I can commit changes to these files and add meaningful comments about the reason for the change in the commit message. This lets me easily experiment with changing half a dozen variables and not worrying about remembering the old values in case I want to go back. Git has the information and it's easy to restore the old values for any point in the git history. This also lets me synchronize variable changes to my laptop so my on-the-road org-mode setup is identical to my workstation. As a side note to this is for those not familiar with git, its pretty simple to manage a remote git repo using ssh. When on the road or dealing with multiple PCs around the globe (!) this can be priceless. I maintain my own sparse repo on my mail server machine. Whenever I update my ~/.emacs.d/emacs-init.org file or my custom.el in the same dir I push it to the remote shh repo too. Handy as to then sync my laptop or the machine at work. Needless to say, all my org-files are in there too. The only thing that still taxes my pickled brain is when I need to merge. The git terminology for fast forwards etc confuses me each and every time ;) Hi Richard, I use a script for keeping my git repositories up to date on multiple machines. The source is posted here: http://doc.norang.ca/org-mode.html#git-sync This script makes a few assumptions about my repositories - All repositories have a remote 'norang' which is the bare repository I push to and fetch from - All repositories live in a known place (~/git for me) (I have subdirectories under ~/git for grouping repositories together and the script finds every repository by looking for the .git directory) You can change both of these locations at the top of the script. git-sync finds each repository on the system you run it from and synchronizes multiple branches in each repositories with the remote. It figures out if the branch can be moved (due to a fast-forward) and moves those refs automatically for all branches in the repository. The only time you need to manually do something is if you need a merge because you modified the same branch on two machines without pushing the changes to the bare repository. This works great for me (I keep over 30 repositories in sync with my laptop -- I thought I had 35 repositories I manage this way so just for fun I decided to count them and there are 73!). I don't need to think about what changed, I just hack and commit and run git-sync before I switch machines. Any branch that has been pushed to the remote will be synchronized by the script and local branches that exist only in the working repository are ignored. HTH, Bernt ___ Emacs-orgmode mailing list Please use `Reply All' to send replies to the list. Emacs-orgmode@gnu.org http://lists.gnu.org/mailman/listinfo/emacs-orgmode
Re: [Orgmode] Re: org-mode tutorial questionaire
I keep my ~/.emacs - ~/git/emacs/emacs.el and ~/git/emacs/custom.el files in a git repository (~/git/emacs) so I can commit changes to these files and add meaningful comments about the reason for the change in the commit message. This lets me easily experiment with changing half a dozen variables and not worrying about remembering the old values in case I want to go back. Git has the information and it's easy to restore the old values for any point in the git history. This also lets me synchronize variable changes to my laptop so my on-the-road org-mode setup is identical to my workstation. I keep my stuff in git too, but recently I have found Dropbox very useful. Once I discovered how to install it on my server it meant that all my config files were automatically kept in sync on my computers. in fact Dropbox is still great even if you don't run your own server. Git is still very useful for letting you easily go back if you make a mistake, or want to start over again from an earlier version. Ian. ___ Emacs-orgmode mailing list Please use `Reply All' to send replies to the list. Emacs-orgmode@gnu.org http://lists.gnu.org/mailman/listinfo/emacs-orgmode
[Orgmode] Re: org-mode tutorial questionaire
Hi Alex, Alexander Poslavsky alexander.poslav...@gmail.com writes: There is a new tutorial on worg: http://orgmode.org/worg/org-tutorials/ org4beginners.php. The idea is to write a tutorial for somebody who is new to org-mode. ... For everybody: -What kind of tutorial would be the most useful? -What in your experience people find confusing? Thanks for taking the time to put this on Worg. I wish I had had such a concise summary of the various flavors of emacs on different platforms when I started exploring org-mode. I was wondering if you could elaborate on the following. Are you suggesting that new users should never use M-x customize? , | The biggest pain, when you just begin with Emacs, is the configuration. | There is not really a menu for it (you might later hear there is, but | they are lying, that menu is really there to trap innocent people), you | need to edit a text-file. ` A few comments: 1. Some of the step-by-step instructions might be a bit easier to follow in list format (rather than paragraphs). 2. If I were reading the tutorial for the first time, I might conclude that I had to place #-*- mode: org -*- at the top of all my org files, even after configuring auto-mode-alist. 3. Why C-x b 2.org -- M-x org-mode -- C-x C-s as the recommended workflow? Once the configuration file is set up, C-x C-f 2.org will bring one right into org-mode. Thanks again for all the work you've put into this. Best, Matt ___ Emacs-orgmode mailing list Please use `Reply All' to send replies to the list. Emacs-orgmode@gnu.org http://lists.gnu.org/mailman/listinfo/emacs-orgmode
[Orgmode] Re: org-mode tutorial questionaire
On Mar 23, 2010, at 8:42 PM, Matt Lundin wrote: Hi Alex, Alexander Poslavsky alexander.poslav...@gmail.com writes: There is a new tutorial on worg: http://orgmode.org/worg/org-tutorials/ org4beginners.php. The idea is to write a tutorial for somebody who is new to org-mode. ... For everybody: -What kind of tutorial would be the most useful? -What in your experience people find confusing? Thanks for taking the time to put this on Worg. I wish I had had such a concise summary of the various flavors of emacs on different platforms when I started exploring org-mode. I was wondering if you could elaborate on the following. Are you suggesting that new users should never use M-x customize? Well, I don't know about anybody else, but I *never* use it. I think it is awful. But then, what do I know…. , | The biggest pain, when you just begin with Emacs, is the configuration. | There is not really a menu for it (you might later hear there is, but | they are lying, that menu is really there to trap innocent people), you | need to edit a text-file. ` A few comments: 1. Some of the step-by-step instructions might be a bit easier to follow in list format (rather than paragraphs). Hmm, I see your point, but having a tutorial that is just a bunch of lists looks really ugly. Off course if people don't understand it, it's not good either. Let's see if more complaints follow on this. 2. If I were reading the tutorial for the first time, I might conclude that I had to place #-*- mode: org -*- at the top of all my org files, even after configuring auto-mode-alist. fixed, added a note about that. 3. Why C-x b 2.org -- M-x org-mode -- C-x C-s as the recommended workflow? Once the configuration file is set up, C-x C-f 2.org will bring one right into org-mode. As far as I can see, that is actually what the doc says: Save the file (*C-x s*) as 2.org, and you will notice that the colors change, syntax highlighting is turned on, and Emacs understands you are working in org-mode. but if it is not clear, let me know what paragraph you are refering to. Thanks again for all the work you've put into this. Best, Matt and thank you for your remarks! alex ___ Emacs-orgmode mailing list Please use `Reply All' to send replies to the list. Emacs-orgmode@gnu.org http://lists.gnu.org/mailman/listinfo/emacs-orgmode
Re: [Orgmode] Re: org-mode tutorial questionaire
Hi Alexander Poslavsky schrieb: I was wondering if you could elaborate on the following. Are you suggesting that new users should never use M-x customize? Well, I don't know about anybody else, but I *never* use it. I think it is awful. But then, what do I know…. ---Zitatende--- Maybe that's a bit opinionated for a tutorial then. I do use M-x customize and I believe it has its merits. -- Friedrich Delgado Friedrichs frie...@nomaden.org TauPan on Ircnet and Freenode ;) ___ Emacs-orgmode mailing list Please use `Reply All' to send replies to the list. Emacs-orgmode@gnu.org http://lists.gnu.org/mailman/listinfo/emacs-orgmode
[Orgmode] Re: org-mode tutorial questionaire
Matt Lundin m...@imapmail.org writes: Hi Alex, Alexander Poslavsky alexander.poslav...@gmail.com writes: There is a new tutorial on worg: http://orgmode.org/worg/org-tutorials/ org4beginners.php. The idea is to write a tutorial for somebody who is new to org-mode. ... For everybody: -What kind of tutorial would be the most useful? -What in your experience people find confusing? Thanks for taking the time to put this on Worg. I wish I had had such a concise summary of the various flavors of emacs on different platforms when I started exploring org-mode. I was wondering if you could elaborate on the following. Are you suggesting that new users should never use M-x customize? As a general comment on this : I used to hand code all my customisations. And ran into terrible problems somewhere along the line. Now anything that has a customise interface, I use that interface and have had no such problems anymore. The downside of course is that your customisations are not grouped logically with comments -but, for me anyway, using the customisation interface lends itself to much more trustworthy code. , | The biggest pain, when you just begin with Emacs, is the configuration. | There is not really a menu for it (you might later hear there is, but | they are lying, that menu is really there to trap innocent people), you | need to edit a text-file. ` A few comments: 1. Some of the step-by-step instructions might be a bit easier to follow in list format (rather than paragraphs). 2. If I were reading the tutorial for the first time, I might conclude that I had to place #-*- mode: org -*- at the top of all my org files, even after configuring auto-mode-alist. 3. Why C-x b 2.org -- M-x org-mode -- C-x C-s as the recommended workflow? Once the configuration file is set up, C-x C-f 2.org will bring one right into org-mode. Thanks again for all the work you've put into this. Best, Matt ___ Emacs-orgmode mailing list Please use `Reply All' to send replies to the list. Emacs-orgmode@gnu.org http://lists.gnu.org/mailman/listinfo/emacs-orgmode -- ASCII ribbon campaign ( ) - against HTML email X vCards / \ ___ Emacs-orgmode mailing list Please use `Reply All' to send replies to the list. Emacs-orgmode@gnu.org http://lists.gnu.org/mailman/listinfo/emacs-orgmode
Re: [Orgmode] Re: org-mode tutorial questionaire
Friedrich Delgado Friedrichs wrote: Hi Alexander Poslavsky schrieb: I was wondering if you could elaborate on the following. Are you suggesting that new users should never use M-x customize? Well, I don't know about anybody else, but I *never* use it. I think it is awful. But then, what do I know…. ---Zitatende--- Maybe that's a bit opinionated for a tutorial then. I do use M-x customize and I believe it has its merits. I only use M-x customize to look what lever I can pull but pointing at customize for a user who is new to Emacs, Org and, in turn, elisp seems to me a really good sugestion. Not just for the user, but maybe for the authors of the tutorial: You don't have to explain elisp when talking about customization options. -- David -- OpenPGP... 0x99ADB83B5A4478E6 Jabber dmj...@jabber.org Email. dm...@ictsoc.de pgpgJV8AHJGUv.pgp Description: PGP signature ___ Emacs-orgmode mailing list Please use `Reply All' to send replies to the list. Emacs-orgmode@gnu.org http://lists.gnu.org/mailman/listinfo/emacs-orgmode
Re: [Orgmode] Re: org-mode tutorial questionaire
On Mar 23, 2010, at 10:43 PM, David Maus wrote: Friedrich Delgado Friedrichs wrote: Hi Alexander Poslavsky schrieb: I was wondering if you could elaborate on the following. Are you suggesting that new users should never use M-x customize? Well, I don't know about anybody else, but I *never* use it. I think it is awful. But then, what do I know…. ---Zitatende--- Maybe that's a bit opinionated for a tutorial then. I do use M-x customize and I believe it has its merits. I only use M-x customize to look what lever I can pull but pointing at customize for a user who is new to Emacs, Org and, in turn, elisp seems to me a really good sugestion. Not just for the user, but maybe for the authors of the tutorial: You don't have to explain elisp when talking about customization options. ok, it looks that the general opinion is a lot more positive then I thought. I'll change it in the tutorial, and see if other things can be done using M-x customize. thanks for the remarks, keep them coming, alex ___ Emacs-orgmode mailing list Please use `Reply All' to send replies to the list. Emacs-orgmode@gnu.org http://lists.gnu.org/mailman/listinfo/emacs-orgmode
Re: [Orgmode] Re: org-mode tutorial questionaire
On Mar 23, 2010, at 10:50 AM, Friedrich Delgado Friedrichs wrote: Hi Alexander Poslavsky schrieb: I was wondering if you could elaborate on the following. Are you suggesting that new users should never use M-x customize? Well, I don't know about anybody else, but I *never* use it. I think it is awful. But then, what do I know…. ---Zitatende--- Maybe that's a bit opinionated for a tutorial then. I do use M-x customize and I believe it has its merits. -- Friedrich Delgado Friedrichs frie...@nomaden.org TauPan on Ircnet and Freenode ;) Aloha all, I think Alexander's manual is an excellent start and will be helpful to newbies. To be successful, the manual will have to make many choices for the newbie, among them whether or not to use customize. It will be very different from the usual manual, which is designed to expose full complexity. IMHO, the goal of describing a sensible path to productive use of Org- mode should be the highest priority. When there is the urge to say to the newbie, you can do this or that, it should be avoided. Instead, the template should be do it this way. I agree with Friedrich that customize has merits (though I don't use it). I like Alexander's vivid language, but agree with Friedrich that it doesn't need to be so opinionated in this case. Perhaps the template for these alternate paths might be a footnote there is [[another way][link]] to do this. All the best, Tom ___ Emacs-orgmode mailing list Please use `Reply All' to send replies to the list. Emacs-orgmode@gnu.org http://lists.gnu.org/mailman/listinfo/emacs-orgmode
[Orgmode] Re: org-mode tutorial questionaire
Alexander Poslavsky alexander.poslav...@gmail.com writes: On Mar 23, 2010, at 8:42 PM, Matt Lundin wrote: Hi Alex, Alexander Poslavsky alexander.poslav...@gmail.com writes: There is a new tutorial on worg: http://orgmode.org/worg/org-tutorials/ org4beginners.php. The idea is to write a tutorial for somebody who is new to org-mode. ... For everybody: -What kind of tutorial would be the most useful? -What in your experience people find confusing? Thanks for taking the time to put this on Worg. I wish I had had such a concise summary of the various flavors of emacs on different platforms when I started exploring org-mode. I was wondering if you could elaborate on the following. Are you suggesting that new users should never use M-x customize? Well, I don't know about anybody else, but I *never* use it. I think it is awful. But then, what do I know…. I don't use it much now, either. But when I was learning emacs, it eased me gently into the wild and woolly world of lists, symbols, cons cells, and the like. In addition, M-x customize-group [RET] org is a nice way to browse org-mode's wealth of options and internal documentation. And Carsten has put a tremendous amount of work into coding all those exemplary defcustoms in the org*.el files. :) 3. Why C-x b 2.org -- M-x org-mode -- C-x C-s as the recommended workflow? Once the configuration file is set up, C-x C-f 2.org will bring one right into org-mode. As far as I can see, that is actually what the doc says: Save the file (*C-x s*) as 2.org, and you will notice that the colors change, syntax highlighting is turned on, and Emacs understands you are working in org-mode. but if it is not clear, let me know what paragraph you are refering to. Sorry if my question was unclear. I'm simply wondering whether we should recommend a multi-step process to new users (i.e., C-x b to create a new buffer and then C-x C-s to activate org-mode) when C-x C-f (find-file) both creates a new buffer and activates org-mode immediately. Of course, all this is a matter of taste (as is almost everything in emacs)! But I suspect a new user might find it a bit crufty if org-mode commands don't work *until* the buffer is first saved. Also, C-x b (switch-to-buffer) followed by C-x s typically requires you to provide two names (first the buffer and then the file), whereas C-x C-f does everything at once. Thanks again for all the work you put into this. Best, Matt ___ Emacs-orgmode mailing list Please use `Reply All' to send replies to the list. Emacs-orgmode@gnu.org http://lists.gnu.org/mailman/listinfo/emacs-orgmode
[Orgmode] Re: org-mode tutorial questionaire
On Mar 24, 2010, at 12:46 AM, Matt Lundin wrote: snip Sorry if my question was unclear. I'm simply wondering whether we should recommend a multi-step process to new users (i.e., C-x b to create a new buffer and then C-x C-s to activate org-mode) when C-x C-f (find-file) both creates a new buffer and activates org-mode immediately. Of course, all this is a matter of taste (as is almost everything in emacs)! But I suspect a new user might find it a bit crufty if org-mode commands don't work *until* the buffer is first saved. Also, C-x b (switch-to-buffer) followed by C-x s typically requires you to provide two names (first the buffer and then the file), whereas C-x C-f does everything at once. snip You are probably right, leaving out C-x b, will make it just a bit simpler, thanks, alex ___ Emacs-orgmode mailing list Please use `Reply All' to send replies to the list. Emacs-orgmode@gnu.org http://lists.gnu.org/mailman/listinfo/emacs-orgmode
[Orgmode] Re: org-mode tutorial questionaire
Richard Riley rileyrg...@gmail.com writes: Matt Lundin m...@imapmail.org writes: Hi Alex, Alexander Poslavsky alexander.poslav...@gmail.com writes: There is a new tutorial on worg: http://orgmode.org/worg/org-tutorials/ org4beginners.php. The idea is to write a tutorial for somebody who is new to org-mode. ... For everybody: -What kind of tutorial would be the most useful? -What in your experience people find confusing? Thanks for taking the time to put this on Worg. I wish I had had such a concise summary of the various flavors of emacs on different platforms when I started exploring org-mode. I was wondering if you could elaborate on the following. Are you suggesting that new users should never use M-x customize? As a general comment on this : I used to hand code all my customisations. And ran into terrible problems somewhere along the line. Now anything that has a customise interface, I use that interface and have had no such problems anymore. The downside of course is that your customisations are not grouped logically with comments -but, for me anyway, using the customisation interface lends itself to much more trustworthy code. I also use customize extensively -- wherever it is available. I don't have to worry about the exact syntax of the value of the variable - I can just use the customize interface and pick what I want and move on to more productive things. I used to hand code variables as Richard did but found I wasted a heck of a lot more time fiddling with the syntax of a variable doing that instead of just setting it and forgetting it with the customize interface. The customize interface that Carsten has put together also makes it easy to see all of the options for a variable in org-mode. Some variables need to be set before org-mode is loaded (when using setq) but as I understand it this isn't the case for customizations. Regards, Bernt PS. I keep my ~/.emacs - ~/git/emacs/emacs.el and ~/git/emacs/custom.el files in a git repository (~/git/emacs) so I can commit changes to these files and add meaningful comments about the reason for the change in the commit message. This lets me easily experiment with changing half a dozen variables and not worrying about remembering the old values in case I want to go back. Git has the information and it's easy to restore the old values for any point in the git history. This also lets me synchronize variable changes to my laptop so my on-the-road org-mode setup is identical to my workstation. ___ Emacs-orgmode mailing list Please use `Reply All' to send replies to the list. Emacs-orgmode@gnu.org http://lists.gnu.org/mailman/listinfo/emacs-orgmode
