Re: [Orgmode] Re: using orgmode to send html mail?
Eric Schulte wrote: Alright, here are two final points summarizing my perspective. 1) Emacs is not about the paternalistic removal of potentially unsafe functionality. Emacs is about giving users as much power and choice as possible, even if that amounts to given them enough rope to hang themselves. 2) I've used this functionality, seen the results, and I like it Final question. You wrote: Unless it actually becomes a problem I don't see any reason not to use the standard to it's full power. What than qualifies as a problem? -- David -- OpenPGP... 0x99ADB83B5A4478E6 Jabber dmj...@jabber.org Email. dm...@ictsoc.de pgph6eOtfOFOc.pgp Description: PGP signature ___ Emacs-orgmode mailing list Please use `Reply All' to send replies to the list. Emacs-orgmode@gnu.org http://lists.gnu.org/mailman/listinfo/emacs-orgmode
Re: [Orgmode] Re: using orgmode to send html mail?
Eric Schulte wrote: Hi, Given the current setup, sending messages with multiple multipart sections is simply one optional way of using the `org-mime-htmlize' function. By default when `org-mime-htmlize' is called without an active region the entire message body is encoded as a single MIME multipart/alternative -- the simpler approach you advocate below. That said, I'm not sure what you are arguing for. Are you arguing that the option to send multiple multipart/alternative sections be removed? Yes I would remove it until some further investigations into the world of MIME and MUAs. It can be easily added later. Why not create an example message and throw it against as much MUAs as possible? This will at least allow us to go further than our personal experience: If the majority of tested MUAs displays the message as intended, than fine -- provide this functionallity with a warning. I've tested so far with a really simple one: | MUA | Display ok? | |--+-| | Thunderbird 2.x | Yes, horizontal lines between the parts | | MS Outlook Express 6 | Yes, horizontal lines between the parts | | Google | Yes | | GMX | Kind of... | | Squirrelmail | Yes | | Wanderlust | Yes | | | | Should be on the list: mutt, Evolution, Mail.app, smartphone-thins, Opera Mail... -- David -- OpenPGP... 0x99ADB83B5A4478E6 Jabber dmj...@jabber.org Email. dm...@ictsoc.de pgpZouCWxQ96K.pgp Description: PGP signature ___ Emacs-orgmode mailing list Please use `Reply All' to send replies to the list. Emacs-orgmode@gnu.org http://lists.gnu.org/mailman/listinfo/emacs-orgmode
Re: [Orgmode] Re: using orgmode to send html mail?
David Maus wrote: [1 text/plain; US-ASCII (7bit)] Eric Schulte wrote: Hi, Given the current setup, sending messages with multiple multipart sections is simply one optional way of using the `org-mime-htmlize' function. By default when `org-mime-htmlize' is called without an active region the entire message body is encoded as a single MIME multipart/alternative -- the simpler approach you advocate below. That said, I'm not sure what you are arguing for. Are you arguing that the option to send multiple multipart/alternative sections be removed? Yes I would remove it until some further investigations into the world of MIME and MUAs. It can be easily added later. Okay, gave it a thought and here is my uber argument: Even if a MUA renders the entire message it will inevitably look ugly: Because the characters in the pure text/plain section will be rendered completely different than the characters in the html markup. The entire message will look inconsistent. -- David -- OpenPGP... 0x99ADB83B5A4478E6 Jabber dmj...@jabber.org Email. dm...@ictsoc.de pgpjsIj9L1zjj.pgp Description: PGP signature ___ Emacs-orgmode mailing list Please use `Reply All' to send replies to the list. Emacs-orgmode@gnu.org http://lists.gnu.org/mailman/listinfo/emacs-orgmode
Re: [Orgmode] Re: using orgmode to send html mail?
David Maus dm...@ictsoc.de writes: [...] Okay, gave it a thought and here is my uber argument: Even if a MUA renders the entire message it will inevitably look ugly: Because the characters in the pure text/plain section will be rendered completely different than the characters in the html markup. The entire message will look inconsistent. Alright, here are two final points summarizing my perspective. 1) Emacs is not about the paternalistic removal of potentially unsafe functionality. Emacs is about giving users as much power and choice as possible, even if that amounts to given them enough rope to hang themselves. 2) I've used this functionality, seen the results, and I like it We may have to agree to disagree on this one. All the Best -- Eric ___ Emacs-orgmode mailing list Please use `Reply All' to send replies to the list. Emacs-orgmode@gnu.org http://lists.gnu.org/mailman/listinfo/emacs-orgmode
Re: [Orgmode] Re: using orgmode to send html mail?
Vagn Johansen wrote: David Maus dm...@ictsoc.de writes: Eric Schulte wrote: [...] I should have been clearer here. I *am* using the multipart/alternative appropriately. When a chunk of org-mode text is converted to html I am adding a single multipart/alternative block with two alternatives, both the plain org-mode text, and the html, so that users like me who prefer to see plain text can do so, and users of web clients like gmail can see nice markup. [...] But I still feel uncomfortable with the current solution: Even if the message created by current org-mail-htmlize is a valid MIME message (I think so) it is a rather complex MIME structure and I have no idea how other MUAs will display such a message. Complex? That is how most emails are structured today. I cannot not speak of most emails today but grepping for the multipart/ entity in my mail archive ranging back to 2003 gives: | multipart entities in message | number of messages | |---+| | 0 | 4208 | | 1 | 3587 | | 2 |260 | | 3 | 8 | | 4 | 4 | |---+| | total | 8067 | To avoid a misunderstanding: By complex I refer to a message that looks like: single text plain multipart single text plain single text html /multipart single text plain multipart single text plain single text html /multipart single text plain And is considered to be just one document. It just makes no sense to create such a nested message: If the recipient requires html markup than send him html markup. Why such a nested message? Moreover: Even if this message complies with the specs it is out of their scope. My impression is that current implementation of org-mail-htmlize mixes up two completely different operations: /Creating/ a MIME message and /displaying/ a MIME message. Because it is assumed that a MIME message as given above will be displayed as a single document or message. And this assumption cannot be based on the MIME specs of RFC2045-2049. In RFC2046, p. 23 it is explicitely noted: Conspicuously missing from the 'multipart' type is a notion of structured, related body parts. The relationship of the message parts in the example above: We are parts of a single document is not transmitted. This information is not present at the recipient's side and a MUA is not obliged to display all parts at once to be MIME compliant (cf. RFC2049). And back to the purpose: The whole idea of sending html markup arouse because some recipients require html markup to properly display the transmitted information. To achive this sending the entire plain text as html markup in a single multipart/alternative is sufficient. There is no reason for ripping the original document apart, requiring a certain interpretation of MIME messages on the client side. Rhetoric question: Isn't this mixing up of sending and displaying the problem of users who willingly or unwillingly send html messages only? They implicitely assume that the message will be rendered in the same way on the recipients side as it is rendered for them. Or users who send out MS Word documents, based on their personal experience that everybody they know is capable of displaying .doc files? -- David -- OpenPGP... 0x99ADB83B5A4478E6 Jabber dmj...@jabber.org Email. dm...@ictsoc.de pgpGji5MsJ6sM.pgp Description: PGP signature ___ Emacs-orgmode mailing list Please use `Reply All' to send replies to the list. Emacs-orgmode@gnu.org http://lists.gnu.org/mailman/listinfo/emacs-orgmode
Re: [Orgmode] Re: using orgmode to send html mail?
[...] It just makes no sense to create such a nested message: If the recipient requires html markup than send him html markup. Why such a nested message? Hi David, What about if I'm sending an email containing some org-mode elements like tables, and also some code. I want the reader to he able to see the plain text structure of the tables, so that they know exactly what's going on. But for the code, I would like those using webmail clients to see nicely formatted, fontified code. Is that a potential justification? Dan ___ Emacs-orgmode mailing list Please use `Reply All' to send replies to the list. Emacs-orgmode@gnu.org http://lists.gnu.org/mailman/listinfo/emacs-orgmode
Re: [Orgmode] Re: using orgmode to send html mail?
Dan Davison wrote: [...] It just makes no sense to create such a nested message: If the recipient requires html markup than send him html markup. Why such a nested message? Hi David, What about if I'm sending an email containing some org-mode elements like tables, and also some code. I want the reader to he able to see the plain text structure of the tables, so that they know exactly what's going on. But for the code, I would like those using webmail clients to see nicely formatted, fontified code. Is that a potential justification? I cannot answer this question because the whole idea of sending just some parts of the entire document is based on a horrible mistake: But for the code, I would like those using webmail clients to see nicely formatted, fontified code. I understand this idea, but: MIME is about message transport, not message display. You want the message displayed in a certain way but You have little control over how the content is displayed on the recipients side. To give an example: I've sent one of the complex MIME messages to a mail account at GMX, a quite popular german mail hoster and opened it in the web interface. The message was constructed like this (using mml like markup): #part type=text/plain First MIME entity #multipart type=alternative #part type=text/plain Second in plain text #part type=text/html bSecond/b in HTML /#multipart #part type=text/plain Third MIME entity. #part type=text/plain Fourth in plain text #part type=text/html bFourth/b in HTML /#multipart - when I first opened the message I had to toggle the NoScript extension to allow iframes: http://s10.directupload.net/file/u/15851/wydtca3n_png.htm - after that the html was shown, but... totally messed up http://s10.directupload.net/file/u/15851/j43xqkjt_png.htm - and finally I chose plain text display http://s1.directupload.net/file/u/15851/plz64u4a_png.htm And the second and fourth part was silently dropped. Sending a simple message with a plain text body followed by it's html representation was displayed fine: http://s10.directupload.net/file/u/15851/ojdn8pdl_png.htm See what I mean? -- David -- OpenPGP... 0x99ADB83B5A4478E6 Jabber dmj...@jabber.org Email. dm...@ictsoc.de pgpkGpK48iBO3.pgp Description: PGP signature ___ Emacs-orgmode mailing list Please use `Reply All' to send replies to the list. Emacs-orgmode@gnu.org http://lists.gnu.org/mailman/listinfo/emacs-orgmode
Re: [Orgmode] Re: using orgmode to send html mail?
Hi, Given the current setup, sending messages with multiple multipart sections is simply one optional way of using the `org-mime-htmlize' function. By default when `org-mime-htmlize' is called without an active region the entire message body is encoded as a single MIME multipart/alternative -- the simpler approach you advocate below. That said, I'm not sure what you are arguing for. Are you arguing that the option to send multiple multipart/alternative sections be removed? This is an option which could only be used intentionally, hopefully in full knowledge the potential risks and drawbacks. In my opinion it is bad design to go out of your way to remove choice and functionality from a program. Additionally I don't like the idea of limiting the functionality of a tool to the level of the lowest common denominator of it's peers. That is not how progress is made. Thanks -- Eric David Maus dm...@ictsoc.de writes: Dan Davison wrote: [...] It just makes no sense to create such a nested message: If the recipient requires html markup than send him html markup. Why such a nested message? Hi David, What about if I'm sending an email containing some org-mode elements like tables, and also some code. I want the reader to he able to see the plain text structure of the tables, so that they know exactly what's going on. But for the code, I would like those using webmail clients to see nicely formatted, fontified code. Is that a potential justification? I cannot answer this question because the whole idea of sending just some parts of the entire document is based on a horrible mistake: But for the code, I would like those using webmail clients to see nicely formatted, fontified code. I understand this idea, but: MIME is about message transport, not message display. You want the message displayed in a certain way but You have little control over how the content is displayed on the recipients side. To give an example: I've sent one of the complex MIME messages to a mail account at GMX, a quite popular german mail hoster and opened it in the web interface. The message was constructed like this (using mml like markup): #part type=text/plain First MIME entity #multipart type=alternative #part type=text/plain Second in plain text #part type=text/html bSecond/b in HTML /#multipart #part type=text/plain Third MIME entity. #part type=text/plain Fourth in plain text #part type=text/html bFourth/b in HTML /#multipart - when I first opened the message I had to toggle the NoScript extension to allow iframes: http://s10.directupload.net/file/u/15851/wydtca3n_png.htm - after that the html was shown, but... totally messed up http://s10.directupload.net/file/u/15851/j43xqkjt_png.htm - and finally I chose plain text display http://s1.directupload.net/file/u/15851/plz64u4a_png.htm And the second and fourth part was silently dropped. Sending a simple message with a plain text body followed by it's html representation was displayed fine: http://s10.directupload.net/file/u/15851/ojdn8pdl_png.htm See what I mean? -- David -- OpenPGP... 0x99ADB83B5A4478E6 Jabber dmj...@jabber.org Email. dm...@ictsoc.de ___ Emacs-orgmode mailing list Please use `Reply All' to send replies to the list. Emacs-orgmode@gnu.org http://lists.gnu.org/mailman/listinfo/emacs-orgmode ___ Emacs-orgmode mailing list Please use `Reply All' to send replies to the list. Emacs-orgmode@gnu.org http://lists.gnu.org/mailman/listinfo/emacs-orgmode
[Orgmode] Re: using orgmode to send html mail?
David Maus dm...@ictsoc.de writes: Eric Schulte wrote: [...] I should have been clearer here. I *am* using the multipart/alternative appropriately. When a chunk of org-mode text is converted to html I am adding a single multipart/alternative block with two alternatives, both the plain org-mode text, and the html, so that users like me who prefer to see plain text can do so, and users of web clients like gmail can see nice markup. [...] But I still feel uncomfortable with the current solution: Even if the message created by current org-mail-htmlize is a valid MIME message (I think so) it is a rather complex MIME structure and I have no idea how other MUAs will display such a message. Complex? That is how most emails are structured today. -- Vagn Johansen ___ Emacs-orgmode mailing list Please use `Reply All' to send replies to the list. Emacs-orgmode@gnu.org http://lists.gnu.org/mailman/listinfo/emacs-orgmode
[Orgmode] Re: using orgmode to send html mail?
On Sun, Mar 21, 2010 at 10:34 PM, Matt Price mopto...@gmail.com wrote: Hi, I just wondered whether anyone composes mail in orgmode then generates html from the source code. I'd like to be able to do that sometimes in wanderlust, e.g. when I'm responding to html mail with links in it. found the following in the middle of a thread from the emacs-vm newsgroup: http://groups.google.com/group/gnu.emacs.vm.info/attach/2cf9c04b3607df35/org-html-mail.el?part=2 see also http://www.mail-archive.com/emacs-orgmode@gnu.org/msg05045.html does anyone on the list still use this code? I'm not finding that it works for me, either with wancerlust or just straight M-x mail, and since all these functionalities are fairly ocmplex I[m not really sure where to begin to look for answers. Thanks so much in advance, best, Matt ___ Emacs-orgmode mailing list Please use `Reply All' to send replies to the list. Emacs-orgmode@gnu.org http://lists.gnu.org/mailman/listinfo/emacs-orgmode
