Re: Communication problems and possible problems with the website

[Ihor Radchenko]

Bastien Guerry  writes:

> Discourse is nice but I'm not favor of installing an instance for Org.
>
> Beginners often ask questions on reddit.com and stackoverflow.com (and
> perhaps elsewhere): perhaps some regular users of these websites could
> serve as "contributors stewards", redirecting interesting bug reports,
> patches or feature requests on this mailing list.

That's an unfortunate truth. reddit and stackoverflow require users to
run non-free JS to write comments. Discourse would provide a familiar
interface for beginners + not force them to use non-free JS. In
addition, there will be no risk to lose information or the annoying
reddit behaviour when no comments can be added to old posts.

> My gut feeling is that we should focus on making the mailing list more
> accessible for beginners, more useful for everyone before considering
> setting up another communication channel.
>
> I have a new version for Woof! (https://git.sr.ht/~bzg/woof) that I'd
> like to finalize and set up this month - let's see how this helps and
> reopen this topic in three or four months?

I do like the idea of Woof!. My main concern is that adding new features
to Woof! (like tagging threads, adding more categories, etc) is putting
even more load on you. I am not sure if Woof! can be on-par with
Discourse features given that you are the only contributor.

Best,
Ihor

Re: Communication problems and possible problems with the website

[c.buhtz]

On 2022-02-27 18:17 Bastien Guerry  wrote:
> My gut feeling is that we should focus on making the mailing list more
> accessible for beginners, more useful for everyone before considering
> setting up another communication channel.

I totally agree with that.

Re: Communication problems and possible problems with the website

[Timothy]

Hi Tim,

> +1. We cannot possibly support every user’s preferred platform. Besides,
> didn’t Discord just do an IPO? This increases the likelihood the

Not Discord, /Discourse/ — ,
.

It’s basically a good self-hostable OSS forum, who also offer limited free
hosting to other OSS projects but provide hosting as a commercial service.
Arguably much more in line with the goals of the FSF than Reddit/StackExchange.

For example discourses, see:




It’s rather nice at being able to have separate categories of discussion (e.g.
bugs, feature requests, development work-in-progress, workflow discussions) all
in one place and allowing people to only be subscribed to what they’re
interested in. When a thread drifts off-topic you can create a new linked thread
in another category, which is rather nice. It’s also much more searchable, along
with a few other benefits.

All the best,
Timothy

Re: Communication problems and possible problems with the website

[Tim Cross]

Bastien Guerry  writes:

>
> Discourse is nice but I'm not favor of installing an instance for Org.
>
> Beginners often ask questions on reddit.com and stackoverflow.com (and
> perhaps elsewhere): perhaps some regular users of these websites could
> serve as "contributors stewards", redirecting interesting bug reports,
> patches or feature requests on this mailing list.
>
> My gut feeling is that we should focus on making the mailing list more
> accessible for beginners, more useful for everyone before considering
> setting up another communication channel.
>

+1. We cannot possibly support every user's preferred platform. Besides,
didn't Discord just do an IPO? This increases the likelihood the
platform will now have a much higher revenue focus and could mean it may
transition over time to either a paid model or add advertising or some
other revenue raising model.

(I notice with interest that Google has started transitioning some of
its services which were previously free to a paid model and I wonder if
the free service gravy train might be coming to an end?)

Re: Communication problems and possible problems with the website

[Bastien Guerry]

Ihor Radchenko  writes:

> Some time ago, Timothy shared an idea of creating a discourse forum at
> orgmode.org. Discourse is FOSS and provides a familiar interface +
> ability to create and tag topics. The question is integration with Org
> ML, but I am pretty sure that discourse might be much easier to start
> with for new users. WDYT?

Discourse is nice but I'm not favor of installing an instance for Org.

Beginners often ask questions on reddit.com and stackoverflow.com (and
perhaps elsewhere): perhaps some regular users of these websites could
serve as "contributors stewards", redirecting interesting bug reports,
patches or feature requests on this mailing list.

My gut feeling is that we should focus on making the mailing list more
accessible for beginners, more useful for everyone before considering
setting up another communication channel.

I have a new version for Woof! (https://git.sr.ht/~bzg/woof) that I'd
like to finalize and set up this month - let's see how this helps and
reopen this topic in three or four months?

-- 
 Bastien

Re: Communication problems and possible problems with the website

[Bastien]

Jean Louis  writes:

> Maybe you could make XMPP group for Org move on chat.orgmode.org and
> let people hoping through various Jabber/XMPP applications.

There are already IRC channels for discussion in real time, I don't
think setting up another way to have live discussions is worth the
maintainance burden.

-- 
 Bastien

Re: Communication problems and possible problems with the website

[Ihor Radchenko]

Jean Louis  writes:

> Thanks, that will help new users to communicate. 
>
> Maybe you could make XMPP group for Org move on chat.orgmode.org and let 
> people hoping through various Jabber/XMPP applications.

Some time ago, Timothy shared an idea of creating a discourse forum at
orgmode.org. Discourse is FOSS and provides a familiar interface +
ability to create and tag topics. The question is integration with Org
ML, but I am pretty sure that discourse might be much easier to start
with for new users. WDYT?

As for chat, don't we have IRC #org-mode?
https://orgmode.org/worg/org-irc.html

Best,
Ihor

Re: Communication problems and possible problems with the website

[Jean Louis]

Thanks, that will help new users to communicate. 

Maybe you could make XMPP group for Org move on chat.orgmode.org and let people 
hoping through various Jabber/XMPP applications.


On February 26, 2022 8:58:31 AM UTC, Bastien  wrote:
>c.bu...@posteo.jp writes:
>
>> 3.  This site does not make clear how to submit bug reports.
>
>Indeed!  I've now added the email address of the mailing list on
>the https://orgmode.org home page, it is good to have it here.
>
>Thanks for raising this issue.


Jean

Re: Communication problems and possible problems with the website

[Bastien]

Hi Russell,

Russell Adams  writes:

> I'm not sure what a clear answer is here. I don't like having any
> mention of Github and non-free services myself, but I respect that we
> need to support the maintainers and that may require using common
> services.

I reckon this is often a matter of trade-off here, but as orgmode.org
is about a GNU software, following the GNU standards comes first, the
need for donations comes second.

Let me insist on this: donations come when you ask and justify the
trouble for donators, not when you display a link, whatever service
you are using.

I would even consider that teaching free software maintainers how to
effectively ask for donations is a more urgent task (but not more
important) than building a loyal donation web service.

2 cts,

-- 
 Bastien

Re: Communication problems and possible problems with the website

[Bastien]

c.bu...@posteo.jp writes:

> And on the Worg page (which is "official" from the new users point
> of view) there is also a GitHub link.

This should be fixed with this commit:
https://git.sr.ht/~bzg/worg/commit/584d5e023f4ec47e32bcc24acc38e0ef0bf6d07a

-- 
 Bastien

Re: Communication problems and possible problems with the website

[Bastien]

Ihor Radchenko  writes:

> Russell Adams  writes:
>
>> https://orgmode.org/ is administered by Org maintainers. I'm not sure
>> where that repo is, and it's not publicly writable. Suggesting edits
>> for that site is certainly appropriate on this mailing list.
>
> It is https://git.sr.ht/~bzg/orgweb/
>
> Timothy, would you mind adding this link somewhere in the web page
> footer?

Done, thanks.

-- 
 Bastien

Re: Communication problems and possible problems with the website

[Bastien]

c.bu...@posteo.jp writes:

> 3.  This site does not make clear how to submit bug reports.

Indeed!  I've now added the email address of the mailing list on
the https://orgmode.org home page, it is good to have it here.

Thanks for raising this issue.

-- 
 Bastien

Re: Links to javascript-based websites from orgmode.org: Paypal and Github (was: Communication problems and possible problems with the website)

[Michael Powe]

Hello,

There's an old joke, that C allows you to blow your own foot off, and 
C++ allows you to blow off the whole leg. The FSF is like the C++ of the 
free software world. Whatever your feelings about PayPal - I avoid it 
like plague - it's ubiquitous in the web world of donations. In fact, 
you can find it on https://my.fsf.org/donate. All, or nearly all, 
packages that I use in Emacs are hosted on GitHub. Oh my, what's this? 
https://github.com/emacs-mirror/emacs! Say it isn't so!


Years ago, the Debian team started a huge dust-up by threatening to 
exclude GCC documentation from its distribution because its license 
wasn't "free enough." Let's not drive down that road.


We didn't make this world, but we live in it.

Thanks.

mp

On 2/25/2022 10:14, Ihor Radchenko wrote:

c.bu...@posteo.jp writes:


Am 25.02.2022 15:18 schrieb Ihor Radchenko:

Org has no official GitHub page. This is partially a requirement from
Free Software Foundation:
https://www.gnu.org/prep/standards/standards.html#References

I totally and absolute support that FSF requirement.

In that case I would say org-mode does violate that requirement because
there is a GitHub and a PayPal link on the landing page. And on the Worg
page (which is "official" from the new users point of view) there is
also a GitHub link.
It does not matter that there is not code on GitHub and that this is
only for sponsoring/donations. You have the link and the logo so you
"promote" that stuff that the FSF do not want you to promote.

Fair point. Paypal requires non-free javascript. Github as well, AFAIK.

At the same time, according to GNU Coding standards:


A web page recommends a program in an implicit but particularly
strong way if it requires users to run that program in order to use
the page. Many pages contain Javascript code which they recommend in
this way. This Javascript code may be free or nonfree, but nonfree is
the usual case.

If the purpose for which you would refer to the page cannot be
carried out without running nonfree Javascript code, then you should
not refer to it. Thus, if the purpose of referring to the page is for
people to view a video, or subscribing to a mailing list, and the
viewing or subscribing fail to work if the user’s browser blocks the
nonfree Javascript code, then don’t refer to that page.

The extreme case is that of web sites which depend on nonfree
Javascript code even to see the contents of the pages. Any site
hosted on ‘wix.com’ has this problem, and so do some other sites.
Referring people to such pages to read their contents is, in effect,
urging them to run those nonfree programs—so please don’t refer to
those pages. (Such pages also break the Web, so they deserve
condemnation for two reasons.)

While orgmode.org is not developed in the same repository with the Org
mode itself, I have a gut feeling that we still have to follow GNU
coding standards on the website. However, WORG contains links to various
blogs, reddit, stackoverflow, and even youtube and it feels right. I
notice that I am confused. I would like to hear Bastien's opinion on the
topic.

Best,
Ihor



--
"Do not neglect to do good, and to share what you have." - Hebrews 13:16a
Michael Powe
Naugatuck CT USA
po...@ctpowe.net

Re: Communication problems and possible problems with the website

[Russell Adams]

On Fri, Feb 25, 2022 at 02:24:53PM +, c.bu...@posteo.jp wrote:
> Dear Ihor
>
> Am 25.02.2022 15:18 schrieb Ihor Radchenko:
> > Org has no official GitHub page. This is partially a requirement from
> > Free Software Foundation:
> > https://www.gnu.org/prep/standards/standards.html#References
>
> I totally and absolute support that FSF requirement.
>
> In that case I would say org-mode does violate that requirement because
> there is a GitHub and a PayPal link on the landing page.

Those are links to supporting our maintainers. Not a project repo.

> And on the Worg page (which is "official" from the new users point
> of view) there is also a GitHub link.  It does not matter that there
> is not code on GitHub and that this is only for
> sponsoring/donations. You have the link and the logo so you
> "promote" that stuff that the FSF do not want you to promote.

I think that's a bit hazy, as they are services and not software. The
standards specify not to promote non-free software. While I don't like
Github at all, in this context it's only for the sponsorship
solution. That's a service like Paypal.

I'm not sure what a clear answer is here. I don't like having any
mention of Github and non-free services myself, but I respect that we
need to support the maintainers and that may require using common
services.

--
Russell Adamsrlad...@adamsinfoserv.com

PGP Key ID: 0x1160DCB3   http://www.adamsinfoserv.com/

Fingerprint:1723 D8CA 4280 1EC9 557F  66E8 1154 E018 1160 DCB3

Links to javascript-based websites from orgmode.org: Paypal and Github (was: Communication problems and possible problems with the website)

[Ihor Radchenko]

c.bu...@posteo.jp writes:

> Am 25.02.2022 15:18 schrieb Ihor Radchenko:
>> Org has no official GitHub page. This is partially a requirement from
>> Free Software Foundation:
>> https://www.gnu.org/prep/standards/standards.html#References
>
> I totally and absolute support that FSF requirement.
>
> In that case I would say org-mode does violate that requirement because 
> there is a GitHub and a PayPal link on the landing page. And on the Worg 
> page (which is "official" from the new users point of view) there is 
> also a GitHub link.
> It does not matter that there is not code on GitHub and that this is 
> only for sponsoring/donations. You have the link and the logo so you 
> "promote" that stuff that the FSF do not want you to promote.

Fair point. Paypal requires non-free javascript. Github as well, AFAIK.

At the same time, according to GNU Coding standards:

>> A web page recommends a program in an implicit but particularly
>> strong way if it requires users to run that program in order to use
>> the page. Many pages contain Javascript code which they recommend in
>> this way. This Javascript code may be free or nonfree, but nonfree is
>> the usual case.
>> 
>> If the purpose for which you would refer to the page cannot be
>> carried out without running nonfree Javascript code, then you should
>> not refer to it. Thus, if the purpose of referring to the page is for
>> people to view a video, or subscribing to a mailing list, and the
>> viewing or subscribing fail to work if the user’s browser blocks the
>> nonfree Javascript code, then don’t refer to that page.
>> 
>> The extreme case is that of web sites which depend on nonfree
>> Javascript code even to see the contents of the pages. Any site
>> hosted on ‘wix.com’ has this problem, and so do some other sites.
>> Referring people to such pages to read their contents is, in effect,
>> urging them to run those nonfree programs—so please don’t refer to
>> those pages. (Such pages also break the Web, so they deserve
>> condemnation for two reasons.)

While orgmode.org is not developed in the same repository with the Org
mode itself, I have a gut feeling that we still have to follow GNU
coding standards on the website. However, WORG contains links to various
blogs, reddit, stackoverflow, and even youtube and it feels right. I
notice that I am confused. I would like to hear Bastien's opinion on the
topic.

Best,
Ihor

Re: Communication problems and possible problems with the website

[Russell Adams]

On Fri, Feb 25, 2022 at 12:48:17PM +, c.bu...@posteo.jp wrote:
> Am 25.02.2022 13:30 schrieb Ihor Radchenko:
> > If you think that the current wording is confusing, please point out
> > which parts. We are pretty much blind here on the potential issues for
> > the newcomers (for obvious reason - we are too familiar with Org).
> > Pointing to the confusing parts would help a lot.
>
> The text in the buffer after M-x org-submit-bugreport says in the first
> line "You are about to submit a bug report to the Org mailing list".
> This does not explain how this is done. As a (very fresh not Emacs
> familiar) user I wouldn't assume that I have to setup my Emacs as a mail
> client in that case. I would assume that there is some magic in behind.
> ;)
>
> Just write something like "Make sure your Emacs is setup to send emails
> or copy and paste the resulting buffer into an Email client of your
> choice."

Pardon. M-x report-emacs-bug opens a side panel which clearly states
you can copy the message content out for another email program.

Perhaps we should update the information popup in
org-submit-bugreport. Can you recommend some additional explaination?

> >> It is unclear where the repositories for the source code and the code
>
> But the front-page and the Install are not the place where I would
> expect infos like that. Repos are for contributers not for users.

Are they? Many Emacs users pull direct from repos, which is why it's
front and center on the main orgmode site.

I think the difference here is between users and developers, where in
Emacs many users are developers and use tools like Git daily.

> In contribute the git thing is explained in "Details on how to submit
> patches" but there is a repo url missing.

I think we should consider adding the repo to the top of contribute as
well. Good idea.

> btw: I would suggest to create links or mirror repos on your GitHub
> page.

This could be done in Worg.

> > Do you recall the urls where you tried to search for the source code?
>
> I searched behind the GitHub link (right top corner of the website)
> first.
> I searched around on savannah but still have problems with the
> interface; which is another topic.
>
> The point is that the users have to search (e.g. DuckDuckGo) because the
> links to the repo or to description that there is no public repo are not
> at the usual (compared to most of the other FOSS projects) places.

I agree this is rather confusing. I think maybe we should consider
creating a comprehensive list of repos on Worg.


--
Russell Adamsrlad...@adamsinfoserv.com

PGP Key ID: 0x1160DCB3   http://www.adamsinfoserv.com/

Fingerprint:1723 D8CA 4280 1EC9 557F  66E8 1154 E018 1160 DCB3

Re: Communication problems and possible problems with the website

[c . buhtz]

Dear Ihor

Am 25.02.2022 15:18 schrieb Ihor Radchenko:

Org has no official GitHub page. This is partially a requirement from
Free Software Foundation:
https://www.gnu.org/prep/standards/standards.html#References


I totally and absolute support that FSF requirement.

In that case I would say org-mode does violate that requirement because 
there is a GitHub and a PayPal link on the landing page. And on the Worg 
page (which is "official" from the new users point of view) there is 
also a GitHub link.
It does not matter that there is not code on GitHub and that this is 
only for sponsoring/donations. You have the link and the logo so you 
"promote" that stuff that the FSF do not want you to promote.


Kind,
Christian

Re: Communication problems and possible problems with the website

[Ihor Radchenko]

c.bu...@posteo.jp writes:

> The text in the buffer after M-x org-submit-bugreport says in the first 
> line "You are about to submit a bug report to the Org mailing list".
> This does not explain how this is done. As a (very fresh not Emacs 
> familiar) user I wouldn't assume that I have to setup my Emacs as a mail 
> client in that case. I would assume that there is some magic in behind. 
> ;)
>
> Just write something like "Make sure your Emacs is setup to send emails 
> or copy and paste the resulting buffer into an Email client of your 
> choice."

Thanks! This makes sense. We should probably modify
org-submit-bug-report docstring, the prompts, and the email template.

>>> It is unclear where the repositories for the source code and the code 
>>> of
>>> the website are. If I had found them I would have created a PR/patch 
>>> for
>>> 2.
>> 
>> This is confusing. If you go to orgmode.org, the git link is in the 
>> front
>> page. Also, orgmode.org -> Install will bring you to the relevant page
>> of the manual, which provides all possible installation options
>> including cloning the official git repo.
>
> But the front-page and the Install are not the place where I would 
> expect infos like that. Repos are for contributers not for users.
> Users are reading "Install" and sometimes the front-page. I have not 
> read the front-page but clicked on contribute.
> In contribute the git thing is explained in "Details on how to submit 
> patches" but there is a repo url missing.

Fair point. We need someone to make a patch for
https://orgmode.org/worg/org-contribute.html Probably adding the git
repo links to Org mode, WORG, and the orgmode.org website:
git clone git://git.sv.gnu.org/emacs/org-mode.git
git clone https://git.sr.ht/~bzg/worg
git clone https://git.sr.ht/~bzg/orgweb

>> Similarly, https://orgmode.org/worg/ has the links to its code in the
>> first heading:
>> 
 Worg documentation on your machine
 git clone https://git.sr.ht/~bzg/worg
>
> Definitly my fault.
>
> btw: I would suggest to create links or mirror repos on your GitHub 
> page.

Org has no official GitHub page. This is partially a requirement from
Free Software Foundation:
https://www.gnu.org/prep/standards/standards.html#References

I think that we might create some kind of mirror given that it is only
used as means to redirect users to this mailing list, but we will need
(1) have a volunteer ready to accept github legal terms and take care
about the mirror; (2) consult FSF. I would like to hear opinions from
other contributors on this idea.

>> Do you recall the urls where you tried to search for the source code?
>
> I searched behind the GitHub link (right top corner of the website) 
> first.
> I searched around on savannah but still have problems with the 
> interface; which is another topic.
>
> The point is that the users have to search (e.g. DuckDuckGo) because the 
> links to the repo or to description that there is no public repo are not 
> at the usual (compared to most of the other FOSS projects) places.

I understand your concern. We may probably add a link to "Contribute"
page as a "git" image in the top right corner. (and maybe rename
"Contribute" to "Feedback"). Alternative suggestions are also welcome. I
will let Timothy/Bastien decide on this.

Also, for some context (I do not imply that we should not update the
website to make it more familiar to users).

Org mode was

>> Created by Carsten Dominik in 2003, maintained by Bastien Guerry and
>> developed by many others.

while Github was

>>  LaunchedApril 10, 2008; 13 years ago

:P

Best,
Ihor

Re: Communication problems and possible problems with the website

[Russell Adams]

On Fri, Feb 25, 2022 at 12:38:24PM +, c.bu...@posteo.jp wrote:
> Am 25.02.2022 13:25 schrieb Russell Adams:
> > On Fri, Feb 25, 2022 at 11:29:38AM +, c.bu...@posteo.jp wrote:
> >> This site does not make clear how to submit bug reports. It even does
>
> I was looking here: https://orgmode.org/worg/org-contribute.html
> Especially the section "Ways to contribute" -> "Ways that do not involve
> programming" -> "Send bug reports"
> There is not described _how_ to do this. That is the point.

This may just be an unfortunate lack of alignment between the
community Worg and the main site. Again, on the main site there is a
prominent Contribute button and it shows how to send a report.

We're open to suggestions how to make them integrate better.

>  From my point of view this is unusual to. But this just should made
> clear to the users. I wasted time searching the repo. Just write
> "The repo is not publicly available". ;) Because orgmode is FOSS
> everyone (new to it) would expect a source repo.

I expect the software product to have a repo. I don't always expect a
repo for their public facing site. Some sites don't use source tools
to publish, and their public facing site will be access controlled to
prevent defacement.

On the other hand, Org does have a repo and Ihor appears to be
requesting TEC to add a link to the page.

--
Russell Adamsrlad...@adamsinfoserv.com

PGP Key ID: 0x1160DCB3   http://www.adamsinfoserv.com/

Fingerprint:1723 D8CA 4280 1EC9 557F  66E8 1154 E018 1160 DCB3

Re: Communication problems and possible problems with the website

[Ihor Radchenko]

Russell Adams  writes:

> https://orgmode.org/ is administered by Org maintainers. I'm not sure
> where that repo is, and it's not publicly writable. Suggesting edits
> for that site is certainly appropriate on this mailing list.

It is https://git.sr.ht/~bzg/orgweb/

Timothy, would you mind adding this link somewhere in the web page
footer?

Best,
Ihor

Re: Communication problems and possible problems with the website

[c . buhtz]

Am 25.02.2022 13:30 schrieb Ihor Radchenko:

If you think that the current wording is confusing, please point out
which parts. We are pretty much blind here on the potential issues for
the newcomers (for obvious reason - we are too familiar with Org).
Pointing to the confusing parts would help a lot.


The text in the buffer after M-x org-submit-bugreport says in the first 
line "You are about to submit a bug report to the Org mailing list".
This does not explain how this is done. As a (very fresh not Emacs 
familiar) user I wouldn't assume that I have to setup my Emacs as a mail 
client in that case. I would assume that there is some magic in behind. 
;)


Just write something like "Make sure your Emacs is setup to send emails 
or copy and paste the resulting buffer into an Email client of your 
choice."



5.
It is unclear where the repositories for the source code and the code 
of
the website are. If I had found them I would have created a PR/patch 
for

2.


This is confusing. If you go to orgmode.org, the git link is in the 
front

page. Also, orgmode.org -> Install will bring you to the relevant page
of the manual, which provides all possible installation options
including cloning the official git repo.


But the front-page and the Install are not the place where I would 
expect infos like that. Repos are for contributers not for users.
Users are reading "Install" and sometimes the front-page. I have not 
read the front-page but clicked on contribute.
In contribute the git thing is explained in "Details on how to submit 
patches" but there is a repo url missing.



Similarly, https://orgmode.org/worg/ has the links to its code in the
first heading:


Worg documentation on your machine
git clone https://git.sr.ht/~bzg/worg


Definitly my fault.

btw: I would suggest to create links or mirror repos on your GitHub 
page.



Do you recall the urls where you tried to search for the source code?


I searched behind the GitHub link (right top corner of the website) 
first.
I searched around on savannah but still have problems with the 
interface; which is another topic.


The point is that the users have to search (e.g. DuckDuckGo) because the 
links to the repo or to description that there is no public repo are not 
at the usual (compared to most of the other FOSS projects) places.

Re: Communication problems and possible problems with the website

[c . buhtz]

Dear Russell,

thank your for the explanations and taking my issues into account.

Am 25.02.2022 13:25 schrieb Russell Adams:

On Fri, Feb 25, 2022 at 11:29:38AM +, c.bu...@posteo.jp wrote:

This site does not make clear how to submit bug reports. It even does
not make clear that the "way" is unusual (not web-based bug-trackers
like bugreport or github). It simply says "Submit a bug report" but 
does

not how. I think the important point and information for the users is
that "Bug reports are done via E-Mail" to the mailinglist with
manipulating the headers or using Emacs itself.


Where would this belong? On the main Org page? On Worg? It's
documented under "feedback" in the manual.

All Emacs bug reports are to mailing lists. That is the usual.

On the main org-mode site the first major point under "Contribute" is
how to submit a bug report.


I was looking here: https://orgmode.org/worg/org-contribute.html
Especially the section "Ways to contribute" -> "Ways that do not involve 
programming" -> "Send bug reports"

There is not described _how_ to do this. That is the point.

The first sentence links to how to produce "usefull feedback". Yes your 
are right to say, that behind that link is the M-x org-submit-bug-report 
described.
But org-submit-bug-report is about a bug-report and not about feedback. 
Feedback is not a bug-report.
Maybe it is the simplest to write "Submit bugs to the mailing list." And 
maybe give some more details about the manipulated header and if I have 
to subscribe to the list first to submit a bugreport.


What I meant with "unusual" is that in the broader context of FOSS it is 
unusual to do bug reports via M-x ...

By the way I wasn't aware that Emacs itself implements this way, too.

It is unclear where the repositories for the source code and the code 
of
the website are. If I had found them I would have created a PR/patch 
for

2.


Which site?

https://orgmode.org/ is administered by Org maintainers. I'm not sure
where that repo is, and it's not publicly writable.


From my point of view this is unusual to. But this just should made 
clear to the users. I wasted time searching the repo. Just write "The 
repo is not publicly available". ;)

Because orgmode is FOSS everyone (new to it) would expect a source repo.

Kind
Christian

Re: Communication problems and possible problems with the website

[Ihor Radchenko]

c.bu...@posteo.jp writes:

> I accept that most of you does the work in your unpayed free time and 
> that each project has it's own "vibes" and ways to do things.
> I just wan't to show you my experience with my tries to communicate with 
> the project. It is not my goal to vent my anger; and I even have no 
> anger. My goal is to improve the project not only my own experience!

Thank you very much for your feedback! Many of the Org users are coming
from Emacs and are already familiar with many of our conventions. Users
coming from outside Emacs are often underrepresented in the received
feedback.

> And I hope it is OK that I collect all the items in one mail together.

No problem.

> 1.
> This website has a lot of deadlinks.
> https://orgmode.org/worg/exporters/ox-overview.html

I replied in the other email.

> 2.
> This website
> https://orgmode.org/worg/org-tutorials/org-publish-html-tutorial.html
> at the end in sub-section "Further reading" points to the mailinglist 
> but only to the archive 
> (http://lists.gnu.org/archive/html/emacs-orgmode/) not to the 
> list-subscription site 
> (https://lists.gnu.org/mailman/listinfo/emacs-orgmode).
> And on the archive site there is no link to the subscription site.

I agree that it may be confusing. I recall that I had to google a bit
first time I encountered this issue. I have submitted a report about the
lack of the subscription link GNU mailman bug tracker.

> 3.
> This site does not make clear how to submit bug reports. It even does 
> not make clear that the "way" is unusual (not web-based bug-trackers 
> like bugreport or github). It simply says "Submit a bug report" but does 
> not how. I think the important point and information for the users is 
> that "Bug reports are done via E-Mail" to the mailinglist with 
> manipulating the headers or using Emacs itself.

> 4.
> Search more around I found out that I have to submit bugreports from 
> inside Emacs via M-x org-something
> Make clear that I have to setup Emacs for sending emails in that case.
> In my case I am not able to submit regular bug-reports because I do not 
> manipulate my headers and my Emacs is not setup for emails.

Could you clarify which particular url you are referring to?
If you go to orgmode.org -> Contribute, you will see the following:

>> Send bug reports. Before sending a bug report, make sure you read the
>> section of the manual on how to provide useful feedback or this other
>> great text: How to Send Bug Reports Effectively.

The word "feedback" links to the manual page at
https://orgmode.org/org.html#Feedback
The page provides all the details about the mailing list and using
org-submit-bug-report + explains what to do if your Emacs is not
configured to send email:

>> If you find problems with Org, or if you have questions, remarks, or
>> ideas about it, please send an email to the Org mailing list
>> emacs-orgmode@gnu.org. You can subscribe to the list from this web
>> page.

>> If you are not sending the Email from within Emacs, please copy and
>> paste the content into your Email program.

If you think that the current wording is confusing, please point out
which parts. We are pretty much blind here on the potential issues for
the newcomers (for obvious reason - we are too familiar with Org).
Pointing to the confusing parts would help a lot.

> 5.
> It is unclear where the repositories for the source code and the code of 
> the website are. If I had found them I would have created a PR/patch for 
> 2.

This is confusing. If you go to orgmode.org, the git link is in the front
page. Also, orgmode.org -> Install will bring you to the relevant page
of the manual, which provides all possible installation options
including cloning the official git repo.

Similarly, https://orgmode.org/worg/ has the links to its code in the
first heading:

>> Worg documentation on your machine
>> git clone https://git.sr.ht/~bzg/worg

Also, https://orgmode.org/ has

>> Site created by TEC with Org mode licensed under the GNU FDL 1.3

linking to https://orgmode.org/worg/org-site-colophon.html


Do you recall the urls where you tried to search for the source code?
Could you give more details on what confused you?

Appreciate your feedback.

Best,
Ihor

Re: Communication problems and possible problems with the website

[Russell Adams]

Just to start, honest critical feedback is just fine. Thank you for
not being negative. ;]

On Fri, Feb 25, 2022 at 11:29:38AM +, c.bu...@posteo.jp wrote:
> This website has a lot of deadlinks.
> https://orgmode.org/worg/exporters/ox-overview.html

Worg is community written and maintained. I've personally done
deadlock scans before, but I'm sure it needs to be done again.

Care to volunteer?

> This website
> https://orgmode.org/worg/org-tutorials/org-publish-html-tutorial.html
> at the end in sub-section "Further reading" points to the mailinglist
> but only to the archive
> (http://lists.gnu.org/archive/html/emacs-orgmode/) not to the
> list-subscription site
> (https://lists.gnu.org/mailman/listinfo/emacs-orgmode).
> And on the archive site there is no link to the subscription site.

Reading implies reading the list archive, not posting.

It's unfortunate that the archive doesn't link back to the main
list. I'm not sure that's configurable.

I've fixed it so that it links to the Worg page about the mailing
list. I hope that increases the clarity.

> This site does not make clear how to submit bug reports. It even does
> not make clear that the "way" is unusual (not web-based bug-trackers
> like bugreport or github). It simply says "Submit a bug report" but does
> not how. I think the important point and information for the users is
> that "Bug reports are done via E-Mail" to the mailinglist with
> manipulating the headers or using Emacs itself.

Where would this belong? On the main Org page? On Worg? It's
documented under "feedback" in the manual.

All Emacs bug reports are to mailing lists. That is the usual.

On the main org-mode site the first major point under "Contribute" is
how to submit a bug report.

> Search more around I found out that I have to submit bugreports from
> inside Emacs via M-x org-something
> Make clear that I have to setup Emacs for sending emails in that case.
> In my case I am not able to submit regular bug-reports because I do not
> manipulate my headers and my Emacs is not setup for emails.

M-x org-submit-bug-report

Emacs doesn't have to be setup for email, you can simply copy the
message into your mail client to send. It tells you that inside Emacs
when you create the report.

This is the same as M-x submit-emacs-bug.

Again the first point under Orgmode.org's Contribute button is bug
reporting.

> It is unclear where the repositories for the source code and the code of
> the website are. If I had found them I would have created a PR/patch for
> 2.

Which site?

https://orgmode.org/ is administered by Org maintainers. I'm not sure
where that repo is, and it's not publicly writable. Suggesting edits
for that site is certainly appropriate on this mailing list.

https://orgmode.org/worg/ is community written, and the git repository
is on the main page of both orgmode.org and Worg:
https://git.sr.ht/~bzg/worg

You can follow the directions below to request access to contribute to
Worg:

https://orgmode.org/worg/worg-about.html


--
Russell Adamsrlad...@adamsinfoserv.com

PGP Key ID: 0x1160DCB3   http://www.adamsinfoserv.com/

Fingerprint:1723 D8CA 4280 1EC9 557F  66E8 1154 E018 1160 DCB3

Re: Communication problems and possible problems with the website

[Byung-Hee HWANG]

Dear Christian,

c.bu...@posteo.jp writes:

> [...thanks...]
> This site does not make clear how to submit bug reports.

Easy. Ask here by mail.

It is same for other issues.

Sincerely, Gnus fan Byung-Hee

-- 
^고맙습니다 _救濟蒼生_ 감사합니다_^))//

Communication problems and possible problems with the website

[c . buhtz]

Hello together,

I accept that most of you does the work in your unpayed free time and 
that each project has it's own "vibes" and ways to do things.
I just wan't to show you my experience with my tries to communicate with 
the project. It is not my goal to vent my anger; and I even have no 
anger. My goal is to improve the project not only my own experience!


And I hope it is OK that I collect all the items in one mail together.

1.
This website has a lot of deadlinks.
https://orgmode.org/worg/exporters/ox-overview.html

2.
This website
https://orgmode.org/worg/org-tutorials/org-publish-html-tutorial.html
at the end in sub-section "Further reading" points to the mailinglist 
but only to the archive 
(http://lists.gnu.org/archive/html/emacs-orgmode/) not to the 
list-subscription site 
(https://lists.gnu.org/mailman/listinfo/emacs-orgmode).

And on the archive site there is no link to the subscription site.

3.
This site does not make clear how to submit bug reports. It even does 
not make clear that the "way" is unusual (not web-based bug-trackers 
like bugreport or github). It simply says "Submit a bug report" but does 
not how. I think the important point and information for the users is 
that "Bug reports are done via E-Mail" to the mailinglist with 
manipulating the headers or using Emacs itself.


4.
Search more around I found out that I have to submit bugreports from 
inside Emacs via M-x org-something

Make clear that I have to setup Emacs for sending emails in that case.
In my case I am not able to submit regular bug-reports because I do not 
manipulate my headers and my Emacs is not setup for emails.


5.
It is unclear where the repositories for the source code and the code of 
the website are. If I had found them I would have created a PR/patch for 
2.


Kind regards
Christian