RE: DEL key doesn't kill mouse-dragged region
Plenty of stuff. For instance, something that has been discussed recently, ^L being pagebreaks: they just figure that out very quickly and they make plenty of use of it. There is the silly myth that regexps are useless to newbies. To newbies, regexps are just spiced up strings and they get by perfectly using plenty of regexps like "auto fill mode". If that is going to find anything matching two or more of these words, now _that_ is going to confuse them. It has been said : "experienced users can always use "auto +fill mode" if they want a regexp, but that is forcing unobvious tricks on _newbies_, who are the most likely to use regexps without any special characters. Of course, what also confuses them is that in Emacs, the regexp "auto fill mode" sometimes matches "auto fill mode" even when spread over several lines (which is usually what they really want) and sometimes not, depending on the Emacs function they use. Apart from that, people can pretty painlessly slowly graduate from using exclusively the "auto fill type" regexp to more and more complicated stuff, if they feel that need. I could give more examples, but I do not want to write a one hundred page dissertation on the subject. What really confuses newbies (as well as experienced users) is inconsistent behavior (such as traditional Emacs behavior and MS Windows type behavior more or less randomly mixed together), lack of transparency (such as abusive use of invisibility and display properties, a very bad problem in Info, leading to surprises while yanking or while printing off stuff). What obviously discourages people learning Emacs is too much change in basic behavior from one Emacs version to the next. It makes too much of what they have learned useless. I agree with pretty much everything you said, Luc: 1) ^L is not a big problem; 2) regexps should not be made less prominent - tell people about them and they will pick them up easily; 3) inconsistent or incomprehensible (e.g. invisible, behind-the-back) behavior is a bad thing; 4) too much change between versions impedes learning (and my customizations!). I disagree with your all-or-none characterization of the issue. Your argument doesn't speak to the current question, except in the implied black-and-white sense of: this is yet another random MS-Windows change that claims to cater to newbies but will actually hurt them. Making delsel + transient-mark the default would be a change, but it's not something new or untried. It doesn't reflect any of your points 1-4, I think. I realize that you were replying to Eli, who asked for examples beyond the current question. I agree with your points, but would like to get back to the original question. I use delete-selection-mode and transient-mark-mode, and have been doing so for years (after having used "traditional Emacs behavior" for years). I think the type-to-replace and DEL-to-do-C-w behavior is superior for newbies and oldbies alike, besides being closer to what many newbies are used to. I already argued that it was ubiquitous behaviour outside Emacs; I'll now add that it's a handy way to work, and having the region visible (active selection) is also clear and useful. I think that many died-in-the-wool traditionalists would be using it today if it had been the default behavior when they learned Emacs (it has been around a long time, but it hasn't been the default). We are, after all, creatures of habit. On combining traditional Emacs behavior and MS Windows behavior (or any other behavior), in general: Yes, mixing things randomly is, as you say, unlikely to produce any result except confusion. Trying to garner some good design aspects from other applications (regardless of their origin or domain of application), and adapt them to this marvelous app, is not just randomly mixing chemicals. One can always find good ideas elsewhere, and many of those can be adapted to one's own use. This particular case, delsel + transient-mark, is pretty tried and true in the world of Emacs - some of us even consider it "traditional Emacs behavior" - but don't tell that to the newbies. ___ emacs-pretest-bug mailing list emacs-pretest-bug@gnu.org http://lists.gnu.org/mailman/listinfo/emacs-pretest-bug
Re: DEL key doesn't kill mouse-dragged region
Why not just turn on delete-selection-mode and transient-mark-mode, by default? Now is the wrong time to suggest incompatible feature changes. Would you please stop making such suggestions? Please save them for later. (These two changes are too radically incompatible, so even at a later time, I won't accept them.) ___ emacs-pretest-bug mailing list emacs-pretest-bug@gnu.org http://lists.gnu.org/mailman/listinfo/emacs-pretest-bug
Re: doc strings that are too long
> The only thing we could do to solve this is to change > describe-function-1 to fill the argument list. I installed a change to do that. Thanks. ___ emacs-pretest-bug mailing list emacs-pretest-bug@gnu.org http://lists.gnu.org/mailman/listinfo/emacs-pretest-bug
Re: DEL key doesn't kill mouse-dragged region
Eli Zaretskii wrote: Care to share the details (what problems newbies are supposed to have, but don't)? I do not want to seem to reopen recent discussions, but since you explicitly ask for it: Plenty of stuff. For instance, something that has been discussed recently, ^L being pagebreaks: they just figure that out very quickly and they make plenty of use of it. There is the silly myth that regexps are useless to newbies. To newbies, regexps are just spiced up strings and they get by perfectly using plenty of regexps like "auto fill mode". If that is going to find anything matching two or more of these words, now _that_ is going to confuse them. It has been said : "experienced users can always use "auto +fill mode" if they want a regexp, but that is forcing unobvious tricks on _newbies_, who are the most likely to use regexps without any special characters. Of course, what also confuses them is that in Emacs, the regexp "auto fill mode" sometimes matches "auto fill mode" even when spread over several lines (which is usually what they really want) and sometimes not, depending on the Emacs function they use. Apart from that, people can pretty painlessly slowly graduate from using exclusively the "auto fill type" regexp to more and more complicated stuff, if they feel that need. I could give more examples, but I do not want to write a one hundred page dissertation on the subject. What really confuses newbies (as well as experienced users) is inconsistent behavior (such as traditional Emacs behavior and MS Windows type behavior more or less randomly mixed together), lack of transparency (such as abusive use of invisibility and display properties, a very bad problem in Info, leading to surprises while yanking or while printing off stuff). What obviously discourages people learning Emacs is too much change in basic behavior from one Emacs version to the next. It makes too much of what they have learned useless. Sincerely, Luc. ___ emacs-pretest-bug mailing list emacs-pretest-bug@gnu.org http://lists.gnu.org/mailman/listinfo/emacs-pretest-bug
Re: DEL key doesn't kill mouse-dragged region
> Date: Tue, 29 Nov 2005 23:42:54 -0600 (CST) > From: Luc Teirlinck <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > Cc: emacs-pretest-bug@gnu.org > > I have taught Math courses that use mathematical software to Math Ed > students, some of them middle aged and with very limited computer > knowledge. I recommend that they use Emacs as their editor. They > manage very well. They do not seem to have any of those problems > newbies are _supposed_ to have, according to the apparently > prevailing wisdom on this list. That sounds like criticism. Care to share the details (what problems newbies are supposed to have, but don't)? Whatever the prevailing wisdom here got wrong, it's never late to learn. ___ emacs-pretest-bug mailing list emacs-pretest-bug@gnu.org http://lists.gnu.org/mailman/listinfo/emacs-pretest-bug
Re: DEL key doesn't kill mouse-dragged region
> Date: Tue, 29 Nov 2005 23:42:54 -0600 (CST) > From: Luc Teirlinck <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > Cc: emacs-pretest-bug@gnu.org > > I have taught Math courses that use mathematical software to Math Ed > students, some of them middle aged and with very limited computer > knowledge. I recommend that they use Emacs as their editor. They > manage very well. They do not seem to have any of those problems > newbies are _supposed_ to have, according to the apparently > prevailing wisdom on this list. That sounds like criticism. Care to share the details (what problems newbies are supposed to have, but don't)? Whatever the prevailing wisdom here got wrong, it's never late to learn. ___ emacs-pretest-bug mailing list emacs-pretest-bug@gnu.org http://lists.gnu.org/mailman/listinfo/emacs-pretest-bug
RE: DEL key doesn't kill mouse-dragged region
Why not just turn on delete-selection-mode and transient-mark-mode, by default? Certainly not delete-selection-mode. Its behavior is extremely surprising, disturbing and difficult to understand for _real_ newbies (newbies to editors, as opposed to experienced MS Windows users). Yes, there are still people who are unfamiliar with the MS Windows interface. I am one of them. But I have taught Math courses that use mathematical software to Math Ed students, some of them middle aged and with very limited computer knowledge. I recommend that they use Emacs as their editor. They manage very well. They do not seem to have any of those problems newbies are _supposed_ to have, according to the apparently prevailing wisdom on this list. The only people to complain will be (some of the) experienced users, and they can easily restore the current behavior. _Real_ newbies might indeed not complain (at least not on emacs-devel, Bug-gnu-emacs or similar lists), but they would suffer. I usually agree with you Luc, and when I'm not sure I agree, it's usually because I don't understand the issue well enough. This time I do disagree. I'm not sure your middle-aged Math Ed students are representative of most _Real_ newbies to Emacs. I'm guessing that most newcomers are quite young and have had a lot of access to electronic UIs (for lack of a better word) - whether it's an iPod or cell-phone screen or a Web browser window. They are used to point-and-click and drag-select-and-delete. It's not a question of MS Windows experience; it is the Way Of The Web (and Even Beyond). Don't you see the same selection and deletion behavior when you edit an Emacs Wiki page or fill out an HTML form at Source Forge or GNU.org - regardless of your platform? I don't have any PDA gadgets or a cell phone, but my guess is that they too behave similarly. This is the ubiquitous behavior that people are used to. WRT Stefan's comment about the Delete key (in addition to Backspace): If Delete has the same behavior as Backspace in general, then perhaps we should bind them the same in delete-selection-mode. One of the things I like about delete-selection-mode, as opposed to PC selection mode, is that it does not change key bindings. But if people feel most newbies will expect Delete to act like Backspace wrt deleting the selection (region), then they could be bound the same (in delsel mode). ___ emacs-pretest-bug mailing list emacs-pretest-bug@gnu.org http://lists.gnu.org/mailman/listinfo/emacs-pretest-bug
Re: DEL key doesn't kill mouse-dragged region
> "Drew" == Drew Adams <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes: >> With the most recent Emacs CVS, NOMIYA Masaru reported he cannot >> delete the region that is made by dragging the mouse, using DEL >> key. I also confirmed Emacs 21.4 works but 22.0.50 doesn't. >> Not much many people might not know such a function, though (and >> I was not an exception). Isn't it a side effect of some change? > Hopefully, this is the opportunity to kill this "feature". > If people want something like that, they should use > delete-selection-mode. > Experienced users who want something like that can use > delete-selection-mode. However, I'm concerned about beginners who > expect this behavior based on other editors. > Typing DEL after dragging a region is something that an experienced > Emacs user is unlikely to do. So why not make it do what beginners > expect? If your beginners expect it, then they probably have a background where the same behavior is expected from the `delete' key (which in my experience those beginners use *much* more extensively than backspace) and also from many other commands. Basically they'd expect something like delete-selection-mode so making it work for one particular case but not for all the others is rather odd. Most likely that those beginners would feel exactly like the OP in this thread: the feature is buggy and only works occasionally. > Why not just turn on delete-selection-mode and transient-mark-mode, by > default? I definitely agree w.r.t transient-mark-mode. It's not perfect, but at least the visual feedback makes it pretty clear what's going on. For delete-selection-mode, I have no opinion. Stefan ___ emacs-pretest-bug mailing list emacs-pretest-bug@gnu.org http://lists.gnu.org/mailman/listinfo/emacs-pretest-bug
Emacs 21.2 TOCTTOU bug report
Hi, It seems that Emacs 21.2 contains a TOCTTOU (Time-Of-Check-To-Time-Of-Use) bug. It happens when Emacs is run by root to edit a file owned by a normal user (also the attacker) and Emacs saves the file being edited. As a result of a successful attack, the attacker can read the content of /etc/shadow. This is because Emacs has a TOCTTOU vulnerability which can be exploited by replacing the file being edited with a symbolic link to /etc/shadow after open() but before chmod(). We found this problem using our detection tools, and we discuss it in a recent paper which will appear in USENIX FAST 2005. This bug may have been fixed in the newer Emacs versions, but we feel responsible to inform the community about this before we publish the results. We are looking forward to hearing from the Emacs developers and we are willing to do our best to help improving Emacs further. Thank you, Sincerely, Jinpeng Wei Ph.D. Student Center for Experimental Research in Computer Systems College of Computing Georgia Institute of Technology ___ emacs-pretest-bug mailing list emacs-pretest-bug@gnu.org http://lists.gnu.org/mailman/listinfo/emacs-pretest-bug
customize-face
Suppose my .emacs is
(custom-set-faces
;; custom-set-faces was added by Custom.
;; If you edit it by hand, you could mess it up, so be careful.
;; Your init file should contain only one such instance.
;; If there is more than one, they won't work right.
'(isearch class color) (min-colors 88) (background light))
(:background "magenta" :foreground "lightskyblue1")
and I do
M-x customize-face RET isearch RET
and try to reinsert "3" after "magenta" I get
Debugger entered--Lisp error: (error "Change in different fields")
signal(error ("Change in different fields"))
error("Change in different fields")
widget-after-change(1090 1143 0)
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