RE: Telecommunications Vs. ITE Product
Hi Dereck Let me start by asking one simple question - WHAT IS THE PURPOSE OF CERTIFICATION? 1- to meet the legal requirement 2- help market the product 3- do the 'right thing' 4- not to kill anyone 5- make sure that the product is nor recalled Most companies will answer (4) to make sure the product is not recalled. This is a GOOD answer - it may not optimized, in terms of immediate cost, but this is the one that I would opt for - particularly if I wanted to sleep at night. Support the product causes problems in 'associated' applications - will there be complaints? Will there be good or bad PR? Will it be easy to market the product? What about the EU phrase reasonable use - foreseeable misuse? In this scenario the outcome, following an up-help complaint, could be an enforced product recall across the EU. Hopefully these questions will provide a different (if not correct or optimized) vantage point from which to address your original question. Best regards Gregg --Original Message- -From: owner-emc-p...@majordomo.ieee.org -[mailto:owner-emc-p...@majordomo.ieee.org]On Behalf Of Plante, Dereck -Raymond (Dereck) -Sent: Friday, January 25, 2002 11:35 AM -To: emc-p...@majordomo.ieee.org -Subject: Telecommunications Vs. ITE Product - - - - -My fellow compliance engineer and I are having a discussion -about whether a -product needs to meet the Telecommunications standard -EN300-386 or the ITE -standard EN55024. - -If a product is a test/development/simulation device to be used in a -Telecommunications environment, and its intended application is a -telecommunications market, but it is not actually hooked up to -the network, -then what standard would you test it too??? - -The reason for this question, is that this device would not -necessarily be -strictly Telco Center and so therefore if it were required to -meet EN300-386 -then it would have to be Non-Telco which calls out Class B limits for -Radiated Emissions. - -Any thoughts. - -Dereck - - - - - - - -Dereck R. Plante -Compliance Engineer -Lucent Technologies -Switching Solutions Group, OPENet Solutions -255 Independence Drive -Hyannis, MA 02601-1854 -(508) 862-3302 - - - - -This message is from the IEEE EMC Society Product Safety -Technical Committee emc-pstc discussion list. - -Visit our web site at: http://www.ewh.ieee.org/soc/emcs/pstc/ - -To cancel your subscription, send mail to: - majord...@ieee.org -with the single line: - unsubscribe emc-pstc - -For help, send mail to the list administrators: - Michael Garretson:pstc_ad...@garretson.org - Dave Healddavehe...@mediaone.net - -For policy questions, send mail to: - Richard Nute: ri...@ieee.org - Jim Bacher: j.bac...@ieee.org - -All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at: -No longer online until our new server is brought online -and the old messages are imported into the new server. - --- This message is from the IEEE EMC Society Product Safety Technical Committee emc-pstc discussion list. Visit our web site at: http://www.ewh.ieee.org/soc/emcs/pstc/ To cancel your subscription, send mail to: majord...@ieee.org with the single line: unsubscribe emc-pstc For help, send mail to the list administrators: Michael Garretson:pstc_ad...@garretson.org Dave Healddavehe...@mediaone.net For policy questions, send mail to: Richard Nute: ri...@ieee.org Jim Bacher: j.bac...@ieee.org All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at: No longer online until our new server is brought online and the old messages are imported into the new server.
RE: CSA labeling requirements to EN61010-1 (deviation)
My understanding is that CSA is content with a date, a date-code, or a date-traceable serial number. The traceability of the serial number IS allowed, unlike UL, to rely on the manufacturer's records. Does anyone disagree? Thanks, Jim Eichner, P.Eng. Manager, Engineering Services Xantrex Technology Inc. Mobile Power phone: (604) 422-2546 fax: (604) 420-1591 e-mail: jim.eich...@xantrex.com web: www.xantrex.com -Original Message- From: jsarell...@tuvam.com [mailto:jsarell...@tuvam.com] Sent: Friday, January 25, 2002 11:46 AM To: emc-p...@majordomo.ieee.org Subject: CSA labeling requirements to EN61010-1 (deviation) Hello Group, Does anyone know if the date of manufacturing is required to be in the label of the equipment? I remember having seen this before but I don't know if this is still the case. Asking a colleage, he said that it is not neccesary? Any feedback is appriciated. Thank you in advance, Regards, Jorge Sarellano TUV PRODUCT SERVICE Compliance Engineer Phone 408-919-3744 Fax 408-919-0585 Have you visited http://www.tuvam.com http://www.tuvam.com --- This message is from the IEEE EMC Society Product Safety Technical Committee emc-pstc discussion list. Visit our web site at: http://www.ewh.ieee.org/soc/emcs/pstc/ To cancel your subscription, send mail to: majord...@ieee.org with the single line: unsubscribe emc-pstc For help, send mail to the list administrators: Michael Garretson:pstc_ad...@garretson.org Dave Healddavehe...@mediaone.net For policy questions, send mail to: Richard Nute: ri...@ieee.org Jim Bacher: j.bac...@ieee.org All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at: No longer online until our new server is brought online and the old messages are imported into the new server.
RE: CSA labeling requirements to EN61010-1 (deviation)
Jorge, I just checked my CSA report for No. 950 and it still asks for a date code or equivalent. My guess is that they would require the same for 61010. Lou Guerin Agency Approvals Manager Littlefeet, Inc. -Original Message- From: jsarell...@tuvam.com [mailto:jsarell...@tuvam.com] Sent: Friday, January 25, 2002 11:46 AM To: emc-p...@majordomo.ieee.org Subject: CSA labeling requirements to EN61010-1 (deviation) Hello Group, Does anyone know if the date of manufacturing is required to be in the label of the equipment? I remember having seen this before but I don't know if this is still the case. Asking a colleage, he said that it is not neccesary? Any feedback is appriciated. Thank you in advance, Regards, Jorge Sarellano TUV PRODUCT SERVICE Compliance Engineer Phone 408-919-3744 Fax 408-919-0585 Have you visited http://www.tuvam.com http://www.tuvam.com
Re: broadband RE from AC induction motors
Corona discharge can occur when air is electrically stressed near its break down limit and this will generate broadband RF energy. If you have small bubbles of air in a insulator with a fairly high dielectric constant in an electrical field it produces an effect known as dielectric focusing and produces a electric field strength in the air in the bubble many times that given by the voltage across the insulator divided by the thickness of the insulator. If this field strength is strong enough to cause any ionised air molecules that are around (and there always a few from the effects of cosmic rays if nothing else) to be accelerated to sufficient velocity before they bump into other molecules for them to ionise them then this can lead to a cascade. Eventually at high enough fields this can lead to full blown arcing but before that there is a region before that where only the statistically rare long free paths will give enough energy to produce many generations and the cascades the result is eventually peter out. The result is a bubble of highly ionised gas that emits RF energy as the electrical current that movement of the ions varies randomly. . Increasing the frequency of the AC supply makes things worse. A shorter time between cycles leaves less time for the ions to be neutralised after the field strength dies before the next peak comes leaving a greater seed population of ions to start the next cycle. This is one of the reasons it is common when impregnating transformers and other electrical equipment to do so in a vacuum Although this effect can take some time to produce complete failure it will very likely do so in the end Nick Rouse - Original Message - From: Ken Javor ken.ja...@emccompliance.com To: emc-p...@majordomo.ieee.org Sent: Friday, January 25, 2002 6:08 PM Subject: broadband RE from AC induction motors Do any forum members have knowledge of a mechanism by which ac induction motors (two are fan motors, one a compressor motor) can generate broadband RE from 30 - 600 MHz? This is outside my experience. Are there perhaps degradation modes that result in arcing? The motors run off three phase 400 cycle power, 115 Volts rms phase to neutral. The control system is bang-bang, just mechanical relays making connections/disconnections based on temperature and pressure inputs. The rep rate of the BB noise is variable but around 10 milliseconds. Thank you. --- This message is from the IEEE EMC Society Product Safety Technical Committee emc-pstc discussion list. Visit our web site at: http://www.ewh.ieee.org/soc/emcs/pstc/ To cancel your subscription, send mail to: majord...@ieee.org with the single line: unsubscribe emc-pstc For help, send mail to the list administrators: Michael Garretson:pstc_ad...@garretson.org Dave Healddavehe...@mediaone.net For policy questions, send mail to: Richard Nute: ri...@ieee.org Jim Bacher: j.bac...@ieee.org All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at: No longer online until our new server is brought online and the old messages are imported into the new server. --- This message is from the IEEE EMC Society Product Safety Technical Committee emc-pstc discussion list. Visit our web site at: http://www.ewh.ieee.org/soc/emcs/pstc/ To cancel your subscription, send mail to: majord...@ieee.org with the single line: unsubscribe emc-pstc For help, send mail to the list administrators: Michael Garretson:pstc_ad...@garretson.org Dave Healddavehe...@mediaone.net For policy questions, send mail to: Richard Nute: ri...@ieee.org Jim Bacher: j.bac...@ieee.org All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at: No longer online until our new server is brought online and the old messages are imported into the new server.
RE: Websites for world-wide requirements
Hi, I remember there was a relatively recent discussion on the a website that can provide the various regulatory requirements and or contacts for each country throughout the world. Does anyone still have that website address? Thanks for your anticipated help. REgards,Paul J Smith , Teradyne, Boston Go Patriots --- This message is from the IEEE EMC Society Product Safety Technical Committee emc-pstc discussion list. Visit our web site at: http://www.ewh.ieee.org/soc/emcs/pstc/ To cancel your subscription, send mail to: majord...@ieee.org with the single line: unsubscribe emc-pstc For help, send mail to the list administrators: Michael Garretson:pstc_ad...@garretson.org Dave Healddavehe...@mediaone.net For policy questions, send mail to: Richard Nute: ri...@ieee.org Jim Bacher: j.bac...@ieee.org All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at: No longer online until our new server is brought online and the old messages are imported into the new server.
CSA labeling requirements to EN61010-1 (deviation)
Hello Group, Does anyone know if the date of manufacturing is required to be in the label of the equipment? I remember having seen this before but I don't know if this is still the case. Asking a colleage, he said that it is not neccesary? Any feedback is appriciated. Thank you in advance, Regards, Jorge Sarellano TUV PRODUCT SERVICE Compliance Engineer Phone 408-919-3744 Fax 408-919-0585 Have you visited http://www.tuvam.com
broadband RE from AC induction motors
Do any forum members have knowledge of a mechanism by which ac induction motors (two are fan motors, one a compressor motor) can generate broadband RE from 30 - 600 MHz? This is outside my experience. Are there perhaps degradation modes that result in arcing? The motors run off three phase 400 cycle power, 115 Volts rms phase to neutral. The control system is bang-bang, just mechanical relays making connections/disconnections based on temperature and pressure inputs. The rep rate of the BB noise is variable but around 10 milliseconds. Thank you. --- This message is from the IEEE EMC Society Product Safety Technical Committee emc-pstc discussion list. Visit our web site at: http://www.ewh.ieee.org/soc/emcs/pstc/ To cancel your subscription, send mail to: majord...@ieee.org with the single line: unsubscribe emc-pstc For help, send mail to the list administrators: Michael Garretson:pstc_ad...@garretson.org Dave Healddavehe...@mediaone.net For policy questions, send mail to: Richard Nute: ri...@ieee.org Jim Bacher: j.bac...@ieee.org All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at: No longer online until our new server is brought online and the old messages are imported into the new server.
Re: EN 61000-3-3 compliant heater controller
I know it is not fair. But the PSUs in question were not ours, and the problem was at a customers facility, so revealing any technical details of the problem and fix will be breaching confidentiality agreements. John Woodgate wrote: I read in !emc-pstc that Andrew Carson acar...@uk.xyratex.com wrote (in 3c4fd4e8.31a84...@uk.xyratex.com) about 'EN 61000-3-3 compliant heater controller', on Thu, 24 Jan 2002: As much as I can say, was a large number (600+) of switch mode supplies, installed in such a manner that their front end emc filters were ineffective. It was not on a European or US distribution distribution and once a simple fix was in place, near perfect sine waves. You can't get way with that! 'Simple fix' indeed. If you know of a simple fix, you tell! (;-) -- Regards, John Woodgate, OOO - Own Opinions Only. http://www.jmwa.demon.co.uk After swimming across the Hellespont, I felt like a Hero. PLEASE do NOT copy news posts to me by E-MAIL! --- This message is from the IEEE EMC Society Product Safety Technical Committee emc-pstc discussion list. Visit our web site at: http://www.ewh.ieee.org/soc/emcs/pstc/ To cancel your subscription, send mail to: majord...@ieee.org with the single line: unsubscribe emc-pstc For help, send mail to the list administrators: Michael Garretson:pstc_ad...@garretson.org Dave Healddavehe...@mediaone.net For policy questions, send mail to: Richard Nute: ri...@ieee.org Jim Bacher: j.bac...@ieee.org All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at: No longer online until our new server is brought online and the old messages are imported into the new server. -- Andrew Carson - Senior Compliance Engineer, Xyratex, UK Phone: +44 (0)23 9249 6855 Fax: +44 (0)23 9249 6014 --- This message is from the IEEE EMC Society Product Safety Technical Committee emc-pstc discussion list. Visit our web site at: http://www.ewh.ieee.org/soc/emcs/pstc/ To cancel your subscription, send mail to: majord...@ieee.org with the single line: unsubscribe emc-pstc For help, send mail to the list administrators: Michael Garretson:pstc_ad...@garretson.org Dave Healddavehe...@mediaone.net For policy questions, send mail to: Richard Nute: ri...@ieee.org Jim Bacher: j.bac...@ieee.org All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at: No longer online until our new server is brought online and the old messages are imported into the new server.
Telecommunications Vs. ITE Product
My fellow compliance engineer and I are having a discussion about whether a product needs to meet the Telecommunications standard EN300-386 or the ITE standard EN55024. If a product is a test/development/simulation device to be used in a Telecommunications environment, and its intended application is a telecommunications market, but it is not actually hooked up to the network, then what standard would you test it too??? The reason for this question, is that this device would not necessarily be strictly Telco Center and so therefore if it were required to meet EN300-386 then it would have to be Non-Telco which calls out Class B limits for Radiated Emissions. Any thoughts. Dereck Dereck R. Plante Compliance Engineer Lucent Technologies Switching Solutions Group, OPENet Solutions 255 Independence Drive Hyannis, MA 02601-1854 (508) 862-3302 --- This message is from the IEEE EMC Society Product Safety Technical Committee emc-pstc discussion list. Visit our web site at: http://www.ewh.ieee.org/soc/emcs/pstc/ To cancel your subscription, send mail to: majord...@ieee.org with the single line: unsubscribe emc-pstc For help, send mail to the list administrators: Michael Garretson:pstc_ad...@garretson.org Dave Healddavehe...@mediaone.net For policy questions, send mail to: Richard Nute: ri...@ieee.org Jim Bacher: j.bac...@ieee.org All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at: No longer online until our new server is brought online and the old messages are imported into the new server.
Re: Immunity for Automobiles
There are a whole host of SAE-Jxxx requirements. I don't know if those are international or only USA application. -- From: Lou Aiken ai...@gulftel.com To: emc-p...@majordomo.ieee.org Subject: Immunity for Automobiles List-Post: emc-pstc@listserv.ieee.org Date: Thu, Jan 24, 2002, 11:40 PM Gentlefolk: Will any of you EMC experts tell me what immunity standard(s) apply to a new production automobile? I am a PSE person and therefore discard most of the EMC messages, but I seem to remember a string of automobile concerns not too long ago but evidently I have already dumped them. Regards, Lou Lou Aiken 27109 Palmetto Drive Orange Beach, AL 36561 USA Tel ++1 251 981 6786 Fax ++1 251 981 3054 Cel ++1 251 979 4648
Luxembourg EMF Conference
A conference was held last November to discuss the state of current European law concerning EMF and future regulations. The presentations can be found at the following link. http://www.era.int/www/en/r_electro.htm Richard Woods Sensormatic Electronics Tyco International --- This message is from the IEEE EMC Society Product Safety Technical Committee emc-pstc discussion list. Visit our web site at: http://www.ewh.ieee.org/soc/emcs/pstc/ To cancel your subscription, send mail to: majord...@ieee.org with the single line: unsubscribe emc-pstc For help, send mail to the list administrators: Michael Garretson:pstc_ad...@garretson.org Dave Healddavehe...@mediaone.net For policy questions, send mail to: Richard Nute: ri...@ieee.org Jim Bacher: j.bac...@ieee.org All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at: No longer online until our new server is brought online and the old messages are imported into the new server.
Re: EN 61000-3-2 applicability and let-outs
I read in !emc-pstc that rehel...@mmm.com wrote (in of5a242f14.94f805e8-on86256b4c.00414...@mmm.com) about 'EN 61000-3-2 applicability and let-outs', on Fri, 25 Jan 2002: I realise that none of the above give much comfort to manufacturers of domestic or consumer products, but maybe a computer manufacturer could offer a version without PFC only for use in installations that have a dedicated LV supply. No, the big problem is for manufacturers who make commercial and light industrial equipment The Millennium Amendment re-classifies most of that equipment as Class A. that are under 16A and are connected to the public power mains. This is the majority of commercial equipment. As was mentioned previously, the harmonic and flicker standards are considered by many to be skewed standards because they were heavily influenced by the power industry virtually to the exclusion of all other data and input. No, that's not entirely fair. AFAIK, nothing (credible) that was *submitted* was ignored, but very little was submitted. Equipment manufacturers either did not see a need to participate in the work or (in the case of SMEs) did not know about it. The issue is not whether harmonics and line votage variations are a problem. The issue is to what extent they are a problem. Correct, and this is different in different countries, even within Europe. And until these standards become unskewed and all data is weighed, these two tainted standards will not be believeable. The large 'Millennium' amendment to IEC/EN61000-3-3 removes virtually all the 'skewing' from that standard, and the MA to IEC/EN61000-3-2 goes a long way to removing it from that standard, *for most products*. If you don't agree, please tell us what 'skewing' you still detect. With specific information, we can take action in the IEC WG. Without it, we can't. -- Regards, John Woodgate, OOO - Own Opinions Only. http://www.jmwa.demon.co.uk After swimming across the Hellespont, I felt like a Hero. PLEASE do NOT copy news posts to me by E-MAIL! --- This message is from the IEEE EMC Society Product Safety Technical Committee emc-pstc discussion list. Visit our web site at: http://www.ewh.ieee.org/soc/emcs/pstc/ To cancel your subscription, send mail to: majord...@ieee.org with the single line: unsubscribe emc-pstc For help, send mail to the list administrators: Michael Garretson:pstc_ad...@garretson.org Dave Healddavehe...@mediaone.net For policy questions, send mail to: Richard Nute: ri...@ieee.org Jim Bacher: j.bac...@ieee.org All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at: No longer online until our new server is brought online and the old messages are imported into the new server.
Re: EN 61000-3-2 applicability and let-outs
I read in !emc-pstc that cherryclo...@aol.com wrote (in ad.1718da5d.298 29...@aol.com) about 'EN 61000-3-2 applicability and let-outs', on Fri, 25 Jan 2002: Dear John Thank you for your replies. A couple of points... Optional application of standards: I believe there is nothing to stop purchasers from using any IEC standards in their contracts with suppliers. So a purchaser of a 30A/phase equipment could specify that the equipment must meet the emissions limits set out in IEC 61000-3-2. Nothing to do with CE marking, of course, merely a private agreement. This was what I meant by 'optional' in the below. But that is crazy! Pardon my French, but *there are no emission limits for a 30 A equipment in the standard*. What you are saying is that a purchaser might impose contractually limits appropriate for, say, a 5 A equipment to a 30 A equipment, which is indeed true but hardly more realistic than a requirement for no emissions at all. It falls into the same category as the all too common 'contractual requirement', 'The equipment shall comply with all British, European and International Standards.'. Does that include the one for toilet paper? Do I understand from the following correspondence... QUOTE 4) My copy of EN 61000-3-2 has a paragraph at the end of its Scope section that says: Special equipment, which is not widely used and is designed in such a way that it is unable to comply with the requirements (limits), may be subject to installation restrictions. The supply authorities shall be notified as authorization may be required before connection. This gobbledegook was deleted by the Millennium Amendment (MA, aka A14 to EN61000-3-2). No-one could define 'special' and 'not widely used', when challenged to do so, so out it came! So custom-made or low-volume manufactured equipment (even if under 16A/phase) does not have to comply with EN 61000-3-2, as long as their users check with their power suppliers that they are OK to be connected. Yes, this is explained *properly* in clause 4 of the MA. UNQUOTE ... that although the 'gobbledygook' paragraph has been removed the option to not comply with EN 61000-3-2 still exists as long as users check with their power suppliers that they are permitted to connect the equipment concerned? Yes. I suggest you get the edition of the standard that is notified in the OJEC and see for yourself. Be careful! CENELEC in its 'wisdom' has got out of step with IEC, so there is an amended First Edition of the EN AND a 'Second Edition' which is actually 6 months out-of-date compared with the amended First Edition, unless you are into kitchen appliances. -- Regards, John Woodgate, OOO - Own Opinions Only. http://www.jmwa.demon.co.uk After swimming across the Hellespont, I felt like a Hero. PLEASE do NOT copy news posts to me by E-MAIL! --- This message is from the IEEE EMC Society Product Safety Technical Committee emc-pstc discussion list. Visit our web site at: http://www.ewh.ieee.org/soc/emcs/pstc/ To cancel your subscription, send mail to: majord...@ieee.org with the single line: unsubscribe emc-pstc For help, send mail to the list administrators: Michael Garretson:pstc_ad...@garretson.org Dave Healddavehe...@mediaone.net For policy questions, send mail to: Richard Nute: ri...@ieee.org Jim Bacher: j.bac...@ieee.org All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at: No longer online until our new server is brought online and the old messages are imported into the new server.
Re: EN 61000-3-2 applicability and let-outs
I realise that none of the above give much comfort to manufacturers of domestic or consumer products, but maybe a computer manufacturer could offer a version without PFC only for use in installations that have a dedicated LV supply. No, the big problem is for manufacturers who make commercial and light industrial equipment that are under 16A and are connected to the public power mains. This is the majority of commercial equipment. As was mentioned previously, the harmonic and flicker standards are considered by many to be skewed standards because they were heavily influenced by the power industry virtually to the exclusion of all other data and input. The issue is not whether harmonics and line votage variations are a problem. The issue is to what extent they are a problem. And until these standards become unskewed and all data is weighed, these two tainted standards will not be believeable. Bob Heller 3M Product Safety, 76-1-01 St. Paul, MN 55107-1208 Tel: 651- 778-6336 Fax: 651-778-6252 CherryClough@ao l.comTo: j...@jmwa.demon.co.uk cc: emc-p...@majordomo.ieee.org 01/24/2002 (bcc: Robert E. Heller/US-Corporate/3M/US) 11:58 AM Subject: EN 61000-3-2 applicability and let-outs Please respond to CherryClough Dear John I understand the following statements to be true. Please make corrections / comments where necessary. 1) EN 61000-3-2 only applies to equipment consuming up to 16A/phase, and there are no mandatory harmonic limits in the EU (yet) for higher-powered equipment, other than what the power supplier might impose. So EN 61000-3-2 is optional for equipment consuming 16A/phase. 2) EN 61000-3-2 currently has a let-out for professional equipment that consumes more than 1kW, so its application is optional for that category of equipment too. This could exclude many of the larger products sold solely for commercial and/or industrial use from EN 61000-3-2. (Maybe the combined air-conditioner / personal computer may not be such a bad idea if it gets consumption up above 1kW!). 3) The 'public low voltage supply' is a 4156/230V supply with more than one consumer connected. Large plants or office building often take their power at MV (11kV or more) and transform their own LV supply with their own distribution transformer - creating a 'private' low voltage supply dedicated for their own use. EN 61000-3-2 is optional for any equipment sold solely for use on such dedicated low voltage supplies. Privately-generated LV supplies ditto. 4) My copy of EN 61000-3-2 has a paragraph at the end of its Scope section that says: Special equipment, which is not widely used and is designed in such a way that it is unable to comply with the requirements (limits), may be subject to installation restrictions. The supply authorities shall be notified as authorization may be required before connection. So custom-made or low-volume manufactured equipment (even if under 16A/phase) does not have to comply with EN 61000-3-2, as long as their users check with their power suppliers that they are OK to be connected. Maybe they could agree to deal with any harmonic issues at site-level, by installing an active harmonic cancellation unit. Regards, Keith Armstrong --- This message is from the IEEE EMC Society Product Safety Technical Committee emc-pstc discussion list. Visit our web site at: http://www.ewh.ieee.org/soc/emcs/pstc/ To cancel your subscription, send mail to: majord...@ieee.org with the single line: unsubscribe emc-pstc For help, send mail to the list administrators: Michael Garretson:pstc_ad...@garretson.org Dave Healddavehe...@mediaone.net For policy questions, send mail to: Richard Nute: ri...@ieee.org Jim Bacher: j.bac...@ieee.org All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at: No longer online until our new server is brought online and the old
Re: EN 61000-3-2 applicability and let-outs
Dear John Thank you for your replies. A couple of points... Optional application of standards: I believe there is nothing to stop purchasers from using any IEC standards in their contracts with suppliers. So a purchaser of a 30A/phase equipment could specify that the equipment must meet the emissions limits set out in IEC 61000-3-2. Nothing to do with CE marking, of course, merely a private agreement. This was what I meant by 'optional' in the below. Do I understand from the following correspondence... QUOTE 4) My copy of EN 61000-3-2 has a paragraph at the end of its Scope section that says: Special equipment, which is not widely used and is designed in such a way that it is unable to comply with the requirements (limits), may be subject to installation restrictions. The supply authorities shall be notified as authorization may be required before connection. This gobbledegook was deleted by the Millennium Amendment (MA, aka A14 to EN61000-3-2). No-one could define 'special' and 'not widely used', when challenged to do so, so out it came! So custom-made or low-volume manufactured equipment (even if under 16A/phase) does not have to comply with EN 61000-3-2, as long as their users check with their power suppliers that they are OK to be connected. Yes, this is explained *properly* in clause 4 of the MA. UNQUOTE ... that although the 'gobbledygook' paragraph has been removed the option to not comply with EN 61000-3-2 still exists as long as users check with their power suppliers that they are permitted to connect the equipment concerned? Regards, Keith Armstrong www.cherryclough.com In a message dated 24/01/02 22:31:21 GMT Standard Time, j...@jmwa.demon.co.uk writes: Subj:Re: EN 61000-3-2 applicability and let-outs Date:24/01/02 22:31:21 GMT Standard Time From:j...@jmwa.demon.co.uk (John Woodgate) Sender:owner-emc-p...@majordomo.ieee.org Reply-to: A HREF=mailto:j...@jmwa.demon.co.uk;j...@jmwa.demon.co.uk/A (John Woodgate) To:emc-p...@majordomo.ieee.org I read in !emc-pstc that cherryclo...@aol.com wrote (in 84.222da8c6.298 1a...@aol.com) about 'EN 61000-3-2 applicability and let-outs', on Thu, 24 Jan 2002: Dear John I understand the following statements to be true. Please make corrections / comments where necessary. 1) EN 61000-3-2 only applies to equipment consuming up to 16A/phase, and there are no mandatory harmonic limits in the EU (yet) for higher-powered equipment, other than what the power supplier might impose. Yes. Furthermore , it applies only to equipment intended to be connected to the *public* LV supply. So EN 61000-3-2 is optional for equipment consuming 16A/phase. No. It *does not apply*. There are no limits stated for over 16A. 2) EN 61000-3-2 currently has a let-out for professional equipment that consumes more than 1kW, so its application is optional for that category of equipment too. I don't know what you mean by 'optional'. Since there are *no limits* for professional equipment above 1 kW, there is nothing to 'apply'. This could exclude many of the larger products sold solely for commercial and/or industrial use from EN 61000-3-2. Yes, up to 16A/phase. These products are relatively few in number and have diverse 'harmonic signatures' (complex spectra). Their impact on the network is small. (Maybe the combined air-conditioner / personal computer may not be such a bad idea if it gets consumption up above 1kW!). Yes, we have heard a lot about joke products like that in the WG. The joke is wearing a bit thin now. 3) The 'public low voltage supply' is a 4156/230V supply with more than one consumer connected. Large plants or office building often take their power at MV (11kV or more) and transform their own LV supply with their own distribution transformer - creating a 'private' low voltage supply dedicated for their own use. EN 61000-3-2 is optional for any equipment sold solely for use on such dedicated low voltage supplies. It *does not apply*. Privately-generated LV supplies ditto. It *does not apply*. I think your references to 'optional' may create (even more!) confusion, which we definitely do not need. 4) My copy of EN 61000-3-2 has a paragraph at the end of its Scope section that says: Special equipment, which is not widely used and is designed in such a way that it is unable to comply with the requirements (limits), may be subject to installation restrictions. The supply authorities shall be notified as authorization may be required before connection. This gobbledegook was deleted by the Millennium Amendment (MA, aka A14 to EN61000-3-2). No-one could define 'special' and 'not widely used', when challenged to do so, so out it came! So custom-made
Re: Harmonics measurement instrumentation - solved !
The situation with the two setups for harmonic measurement was solved, and the problem was quite simple ... The resistance of the cables used with the watt meter was 0.25 ohms . Enough to reduce the harmonics sufficiently. Not using the appropriate cables was a basic mistake... but I am happy to have learned another detail that makes difference in an EMC test. Thanks for all that replied my mail. Günter J. Maass Researcher - Power Electronics Development EMBRACO S.A. Robert Macy m...@california.com To: gunter_j_ma...@embraco.com.br, emc-p...@majordomo.ieee.org Sent by: cc: owner-emc-pstc@majordoSubject: Re: Harmonics measurement instrumentation mo.ieee.org 22/01/02 18:06 Please respond to Robert Macy Hmmm...measured with a current meter, then measured with a wattmeter and got different answersHarmonics out of phase? contain no power? - Robert - Robert A. Macy, PEm...@california.com 408 286 3985 fx 408 297 9121 AJM International Electronics Consultants 619 North First St, San Jose, CA 95112 -Original Message- From: gunter_j_ma...@embraco.com.br gunter_j_ma...@embraco.com.br To: emc-p...@majordomo.ieee.org emc-p...@majordomo.ieee.org List-Post: emc-pstc@listserv.ieee.org Date: Tuesday, January 22, 2002 11:56 AM Subject: Harmonics measurement instrumentation List I would like your precious opinion about a situation regarding harmonic current measurement (61000-3-2). First case: Using a sinusoidal AC power source, with a controlled output voltage (almost perfect sine, voltage THD lower than the needed, even with load), I measured the current harmonics using the internal instrument of the power source. The 13th and 15th harmonics were right above the limits (Class A limits). Second case: I add a digital wattimeter to measure the harmonics. The harmonic content became 30% lower than the first case (good enough to pass). And I got this results with the two instruments (the one inside the power source, and the wattimeter). My first thought was the increased impedance due to the wattimeter (Zm). But I got 50mV of drop voltage in this instrument (peak voltage), that is lower than the specified in 61000-3-2, Annex B (0,15Vpeak maximum). And the impedance of its current shunt is only 0,008 ohms (data from its manual). This put my first guess down ! Theoretically, the wattimeter couldn't attenuate so much the harmonics ! Any idea of what could be happening ? Thank you again. Günter J. Maass Researcher - Power Electronics Development EMBRACO S.A. --- This message is from the IEEE EMC Society Product Safety Technical Committee emc-pstc discussion list. Visit our web site at: http://www.ewh.ieee.org/soc/emcs/pstc/ To cancel your subscription, send mail to: majord...@ieee.org with the single line: unsubscribe emc-pstc For help, send mail to the list administrators: Michael Garretson:pstc_ad...@garretson.org Dave Healddavehe...@mediaone.net For policy questions, send mail to: Richard Nute: ri...@ieee.org Jim Bacher: j.bac...@ieee.org All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at: No longer online until our new server is brought online and the old messages are imported into the new server.
Immunity for Automobiles
Gentlefolk: Will any of you EMC experts tell me what immunity standard(s) apply to a new production automobile? I am a PSE person and therefore discard most of the EMC messages, but I seem to remember a string of automobile concerns not too long ago but evidently I have already dumped them. Regards, Lou Lou Aiken 27109 Palmetto Drive Orange Beach, AL 36561 USA Tel ++1 251 981 6786 Fax ++1 251 981 3054 Cel ++1 251 979 4648
RE: noise immunity on mains powered equipment
Hi again, I think I expressed myself not that clear enough when asking the question? so a bit more clear now: The noise is injected on the AC mains port of mains powered (commercially sold) equipment by a bulk current injection method. What standard describe such a testmethod. Kris From: Price, Ed ed.pr...@cubic.com Reply-To: Price, Ed ed.pr...@cubic.com To: 'EMC-PSTC' emc-p...@majordomo.ieee.org Subject: RE: noise immunity on mains powered equipment Date: Thu, 24 Jan 2002 11:27:05 -0800 I can add that there is a Ford vehicular EMC specification, document ES-XW7T-1A278-AB, that includes a Method RI-112 bulk current immunity test. (I can send you a pdf on request.) Regards, Ed Ed Price ed.pr...@cubic.com Electromagnetic Compatibility Lab Cubic Defense Systems San Diego, CA USA 858-505-2780 (Voice) 858-505-1583 (Fax) Military Avionics EMC Services Is Our Specialty Shake-Bake-Shock - Metrology - Reliability Analysis -Original Message- From: Ken Javor [mailto:ken.ja...@emccompliance.com] Sent: Thursday, January 24, 2002 8:49 AM To: kristiaan.carpent...@alcatel.be; 'EMC-PSTC' Subject: Re: noise immunity on mains powered equipment I was hoping someone would be able to answer this more authoritatively than I can, but if there have been any replies, I missed them. I am aware that the US FDA imposes a BCI type requirement like MIL-STD-461 CS114. Of course that is for medical equipment. RTCA/DO-160 imposes a very similar BCI requirement on commercial avionics. SAE ARP 1972 included BCI testing but was just a recommended practice, I don't know of any entity that actually levied it as a requirement. The automotive world in this country at least has adopted BCI techniques as well. There were in-house specs (I recall seeing a GM spec) and a better version has been adopted as an SAE J-type requirement industry-wide. That's about all I can think of off the top of my head. -- From: kristiaan.carpent...@alcatel.be To: 'EMC-PSTC' emc-p...@majordomo.ieee.org Subject: noise immunity on mains powered equipment Date: Wed, Jan 23, 2002, 11:06 AM Hello, Has any-one ever heard about a standard (non-military) that describes noise immunity of mains powered equipment. Testing seems to be done by the current bulk injection method. the standard is not IEC 61000-4-6. Regards, Kris Carpentier --- This message is from the IEEE EMC Society Product Safety Technical Committee emc-pstc discussion list. Visit our web site at: http://www.ewh.ieee.org/soc/emcs/pstc/ To cancel your subscription, send mail to: majord...@ieee.org with the single line: unsubscribe emc-pstc For help, send mail to the list administrators: Michael Garretson:pstc_ad...@garretson.org Dave Healddavehe...@mediaone.net For policy questions, send mail to: Richard Nute: ri...@ieee.org Jim Bacher: j.bac...@ieee.org All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at: No longer online until our new server is brought online and the old messages are imported into the new server. _ MSN Foto's is de eenvoudigste manier om je foto's te delen en af te drukken: http://photos.msn.nl/Support/WorldWide.aspx --- This message is from the IEEE EMC Society Product Safety Technical Committee emc-pstc discussion list. Visit our web site at: http://www.ewh.ieee.org/soc/emcs/pstc/ To cancel your subscription, send mail to: majord...@ieee.org with the single line: unsubscribe emc-pstc For help, send mail to the list administrators: Michael Garretson:pstc_ad...@garretson.org Dave Healddavehe...@mediaone.net For policy questions, send mail to: Richard Nute: ri...@ieee.org Jim Bacher: j.bac...@ieee.org All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at: No longer online until our new server is brought online and the old messages are imported into the new server.
