Re: IEC 61010 requirements

[David Heald]

   I think the spurious emissions would be a big problem.  You would be 
amazed at the levels of EMI emitted by phones when they are in certain 
modes.  While looking at some dual & tri-mode digital phones from 3 
different manufacturers (while placing digital calls in the 1800± MHz 
range?? or maybe the upper 800's range - I forget), I have seen 
emissions that were regularly 20-30+ dB above Class A from 40MHz all the 
way up to 1GHz (narrowband spurious, but distributed seemingly randomly 
all over the place).

These emissions were from the phone itself on a turntable - no cables, 
just the phone taped to a cardboard box.  Anecdotally, think of your PC 
speakers - I know a lot of people who know that a TDMA call is coming in 
when their speakers click.

I must admit I haven't looked, but maybe the mall stores sell sterile 
faceplates? :)

Best Regards,
Dave Heald

John Shinn wrote:
> If he had a LOW EMI Phone, how was he able to transmit out of the
> OR? It is not the incidental radiation that is the problem, it is the
> transmitter.  Also, how was he able to "answer" the phone and  maintain
> sterilization?
> 
> John Shinn
> 
> 
> -Original Message-
> From: owner-emc-p...@majordomo.ieee.org
> [mailto:owner-emc-p...@majordomo.ieee.org]On Behalf Of drcuthbert
> Sent: Monday, February 24, 2003 1:32 PM
> To: 'John Woodgate'; emc-p...@majordomo.ieee.org
> Subject: RE: IEC 61010 requirements
> 
> 
> 
> Maybe he had a special low EMI cell phone? But seriously, a useful product
> would be a "cell phone detector" with an audible alarm, or a silent alarm to
> alert security.
> 
> Dave Cuthbert
> -Original Message-
> From: John Woodgate [mailto:j...@jmwa.demon.co.uk]
> Sent: Saturday, February 22, 2003 1:05 AM
> To: emc-p...@majordomo.ieee.org
> Subject: Re: IEC 61010 requirements
> 
> 
> 
> I read in !emc-pstc that peter merguerian 
> wrote (in <20030221231714.74613.qm...@web14806.mail.yahoo.com>) about
> 'IEC 61010 requirements' on Fri, 21 Feb 2003:
> 
>>   The other day, I called a surgeon and he happened to be in the
>>   operating room with his cellphone performing an operation. Does
>>   that make his cellular comply with IEC 601-1?
> 
> 
> Maybe not, but there are VERY serious EMC issues. No cell-phone should
> be switched on in an OR.
> --
> Regards, John Woodgate, OOO - Own Opinions Only. http://www.jmwa.demon.co.uk
> Interested in professional sound reinforcement and distribution? Then go to
> http://www.isce.org.uk
> PLEASE do NOT copy news posts to me by E-MAIL!
> 
> ---
> This message is from the IEEE EMC Society Product Safety
> Technical Committee emc-pstc discussion list.
> 
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Re: Shieled ethernet cables in Germany

[Ken Javor]

Absolutely correct.  I ASSUMED that what was meant was that shielding the
cable resulted in no better than a 6 dB reduction in cable-sourced
emissions.  Something you could check with a current probe.  If an entire
system is being tested then clearly other emission sources could mask any
cable-sourced improvements.

Ken Javor

on 2/24/03 11:04 AM, drcuthbert at drcuthb...@micron.com wrote:

> The fact that going from unshielded to shielded cable cut emissions by 6 dB
> does not necessarily mean that the shield cut cable emissions by only 6 dB.
It
> could mean that the cable emissions have been greatly reduced but another
part
> of the system has emissions that are 6 dB below the original configuration.
> Like pealing an onion and revealing the layers of EMI.
> 
> Dave Cuthbert
> Micron Technology
> 
> -Original Message-
> From: Ken Javor [mailto:ken.ja...@emccompliance.com]
> Sent: Monday, February 24, 2003 7:22 AM
> To: Jan Vercammen; emc-p...@majordomo.ieee.org
> Subject: Re: Shieled ethernet cables in Germany
> 
> 
> 
> To Jan Vercammen and Michael Nagel and the whole forum,
> 
> If a decent shield only provides 6 dB of shielding effectiveness at best,
> that is an indictment of the termination impedance(s) and Doug Smith is
> right, other techniques need to be investigated for reducing emissions and
> immunity.
> 
> Ken Javor
> 
> 

-- 

Ken Javor
EMC Compliance
Huntsville, Alabama
256/650-5261




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pacemakers

[Knighten, Jim L]

I have been asked the following question:

"Does anybody have any experience with pacemakers and multiple spark
discharge ignitions?  We would like to know if there is any trouble with a
pacemaker when it gets close to a high powered ignition." 

If there is anyone who is racing cars and has a pacemaker, or who has any
information as to the immunity or lack of immunity of pacemakers to racing
car ignitions, please respond.

Thanks,

Jim



Jim Knighten, Ph.D.
Teradata, a Division of NCR http://www.ncr.com
17095 Via Del Campo
San Diego, CA 92127
USA
Tel: 858-485-2537
Fax: 858-485-3788
jim.knigh...@ncr.com



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Power Supply with O/P 0-80Vdc max 125 A

[peter merguerian]

Dear All,

I am looking for an inexpensive AC to DC power supply with an ADJUSTABLE 
0-80 V dc and up to 125 A output. I am sure many of these power supplies exist
now that the telecom industry is not doing too well.

Peter

 

 




  _  

Do you Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Tax Center   - forms, calculators, tips, and
more

RE: IEC 61010 requirements

[Price, Ed]

>-Original Message-
>From: John Woodgate [mailto:j...@jmwa.demon.co.uk]
>Sent: Saturday, February 22, 2003 12:05 AM
>To: emc-p...@majordomo.ieee.org
>Subject: Re: IEC 61010 requirements
>
>
>
>I read in !emc-pstc that peter merguerian 
>wrote (in <20030221231714.74613.qm...@web14806.mail.yahoo.com>) about
>'IEC 61010 requirements' on Fri, 21 Feb 2003:
>>The other day, I called a surgeon and he happened to be in the 
>>operating room with his cellphone performing an operation. Does 
>>that make his cellular comply with IEC 601-1?
>
>Maybe not, but there are VERY serious EMC issues. No cell-phone should
>be switched on in an OR.
>-- 
>Regards, John Woodgate, OOO - Own Opinions Only. 
>http://www.jmwa.demon.co.uk 


I would be even more concerned about fire & explosion hazard. The cell phone
is most likely not gas-tight. A couple of years ago, I talked with an
anesthesiologist, who related his worries about oxygen and anesthesia gasses
being "trapped" in folds of the patient's blankets (patient heat loss on an
operating table is a concern) or the draping of the procedure site, thereby
creating little "flame or explosion zones".

That surgeon's phone would just about in the worst place relative to the
gasses.

And another thought just arises; how did he take your call? Hard to see how
he could do that without violating the isolation of the operating site. If
this becomes a common practice, we'll soon hear a tale about somebody
"loosing" a cellphone inside a patient, like what happens when they
mis-count the sponges.

Regards,

Ed
 

Ed Price
ed.pr...@cubic.com
Electromagnetic Compatibility Lab
Cubic Defense Systems
San Diego, CA  USA
858-505-2780  (Voice)
858-505-1583  (Fax)
Military & Avionics EMC Is Our Specialty
Shake-Bake-Shock - Metrology - Reliability Analysis


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RE: Shieled ethernet cables in Germany

[drcuthbert]

The fact that going from unshielded to shielded cable cut emissions by 6 dB
does not necessarily mean that the shield cut cable emissions by only 6 dB. It
could mean that the cable emissions have been greatly reduced but another part
of the system has emissions that are 6 dB below the original configuration.
Like pealing an onion and revealing the layers of EMI.

   Dave Cuthbert
   Micron Technology


From: Ken Javor [mailto:ken.ja...@emccompliance.com]
Sent: Monday, February 24, 2003 7:22 AM
To: Jan Vercammen; emc-p...@majordomo.ieee.org
Subject: Re: Shieled ethernet cables in Germany



To Jan Vercammen and Michael Nagel and the whole forum,

If a decent shield only provides 6 dB of shielding effectiveness at best,
that is an indictment of the termination impedance(s) and Doug Smith is
right, other techniques need to be investigated for reducing emissions and
immunity.

Ken Javor




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Power Supply with O/P 0-80Vdc max 125 A

[peter merguerian]

Dear All,

I am looking for an inexpensive AC to DC power supply with an ADJUSTABLE 
0-80 V dc and up to 125 A output. I am sure many of these power supplies exist
now that the telecom industry is not doing too well.

Peter

 

 




  _  

Do you Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Tax Center   - forms, calculators, tips, and
more

RE: IEC 61010 requirements

[John Shinn]

If he had a LOW EMI Phone, how was he able to transmit out of the
OR? It is not the incidental radiation that is the problem, it is the
transmitter.  Also, how was he able to "answer" the phone and  maintain
sterilization?

John Shinn



From: owner-emc-p...@majordomo.ieee.org
[mailto:owner-emc-p...@majordomo.ieee.org]On Behalf Of drcuthbert
Sent: Monday, February 24, 2003 1:32 PM
To: 'John Woodgate'; emc-p...@majordomo.ieee.org
Subject: RE: IEC 61010 requirements



Maybe he had a special low EMI cell phone? But seriously, a useful product
would be a "cell phone detector" with an audible alarm, or a silent alarm to
alert security.

Dave Cuthbert

From: John Woodgate [mailto:j...@jmwa.demon.co.uk]
Sent: Saturday, February 22, 2003 1:05 AM
To: emc-p...@majordomo.ieee.org
Subject: Re: IEC 61010 requirements



I read in !emc-pstc that peter merguerian 
wrote (in <20030221231714.74613.qm...@web14806.mail.yahoo.com>) about
'IEC 61010 requirements' on Fri, 21 Feb 2003:
>The other day, I called a surgeon and he happened to be in the
>operating room with his cellphone performing an operation. Does
>that make his cellular comply with IEC 601-1?

Maybe not, but there are VERY serious EMC issues. No cell-phone should
be switched on in an OR.
--
Regards, John Woodgate, OOO - Own Opinions Only. http://www.jmwa.demon.co.uk
Interested in professional sound reinforcement and distribution? Then go to
http://www.isce.org.uk
PLEASE do NOT copy news posts to me by E-MAIL!


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Conformity Article

[John Barnes]

EMC-PSTC'ers,
My article "Designing Electronic Systems for ESD Immunity" just came out
in the February 2003 Conformity magazine, pages 18-27.  If you don't
receive the magazine you can download the article from their web site at
 http://www.conformity.com/

Enjoy!
John Barnes KS4GL, PE, NCE, ESDC Eng, SM IEEE
dBi Corporation
http://www.dbicorporation.com/


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RE: IEC 61010 requirements

[drcuthbert]

Maybe he had a special low EMI cell phone? But seriously, a useful product
would be a "cell phone detector" with an audible alarm, or a silent alarm to
alert security. 

Dave Cuthbert 

From: John Woodgate [mailto:j...@jmwa.demon.co.uk]
Sent: Saturday, February 22, 2003 1:05 AM
To: emc-p...@majordomo.ieee.org
Subject: Re: IEC 61010 requirements



I read in !emc-pstc that peter merguerian 
wrote (in <20030221231714.74613.qm...@web14806.mail.yahoo.com>) about
'IEC 61010 requirements' on Fri, 21 Feb 2003:
>The other day, I called a surgeon and he happened to be in the 
>operating room with his cellphone performing an operation. Does 
>that make his cellular comply with IEC 601-1?

Maybe not, but there are VERY serious EMC issues. No cell-phone should
be switched on in an OR.
-- 
Regards, John Woodgate, OOO - Own Opinions Only. http://www.jmwa.demon.co.uk 
Interested in professional sound reinforcement and distribution? Then go to 
http://www.isce.org.uk
PLEASE do NOT copy news posts to me by E-MAIL!


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RE: Power Supply with O/P 0-80Vdc max 125 A

[boconn...@t-yuden.com]

Many good Sorenson, HP, Agilent, and other units always seem to be available
on ebay. Be careful how you pay. 

Search for "Surplus Test Equipment" on google. 

good luck, 
Brian 

I am looking for an inexpensive AC to DC power supply with an ADJUSTABLE 
0-80 V dc and up to 125 A output. I am sure many of these power supplies exist
now that the telecom industry is not doing too well.

FW: GOST standards

[John Allen]

Hi Folks

The end of the URL appears to have wrapped, so add "ument&ALT" to it from
the 2nd line.

Regards

John Allen


From: John Allen [mailto:john.al...@era.co.uk]
Sent: 24 February 2003 13:16
To: 'Nick Williams'; emc-p...@majordomo.ieee.org
Subject: RE: GOST standards



Nick

Try the GOST Stds Search Engine on 
http://www.gost.ru/sls/gost.nsf/PVP/1762244D53B86C4AC32566DE0038560E?OpenDoc
ument&ALT

Regards

John Allen
Technical Consultant
Safety and Risk Management
ERA Technology Ltd
Cleeve Rd
Leatherhead
Surrey KT22 7SA
Tel:+44 (0) 1372-367025 (Direct)
+44 (0) 1372-367000 (Switchboard)
Fax:+44 (0) 1372-367102 (Fax)


From: Nick Williams [mailto:nick.willi...@conformance.co.uk]
Sent: 24 February 2003 10:31
To: emc-p...@majordomo.ieee.org
Subject: GOST standards



I've been asked to look at a piece of equipment which is made in 
Russia and which has numerous certifications to various GOST 
standards.

Is there anywhere I can identify some sort of cross reference between 
the GOST standard numbers and the EN standards (if indeed such a 
comparison is valid)?

In the absence of a more specific standard we've decided to apply the 
requirements for ITE, so equivalence to EN 60950 is the most 
important issue.

Any help gratefully received.

Regards

Nick.


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*
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The information supplied in this Commercial Communication should be treated
in confidence.
No liability whatsoever is accepted for any loss or damage 
suffered as a result of accessing this message or any attachments.

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*
Copyright ERA Technology Ltd. 2002. (www.era.co.uk). All rights reserved. 
The information supplied in this Commercial Communication should be treated
in confidence.
No liability whatsoever is accepted for any loss or damage 
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Re: Shieled ethernet cables in Germany

[Ken Javor]

To Jan Vercammen and Michael Nagel and the whole forum,

If a decent shield only provides 6 dB of shielding effectiveness at best,
that is an indictment of the termination impedance(s) and Doug Smith is
right, other techniques need to be investigated for reducing emissions and
immunity.

Ken Javor



on 2/24/03 4:04 AM, Jan Vercammen at jan.vercamm...@agfa.com wrote:

> 
> 
> Hello,
> 
> 
> I can confirm Doug's remarks, a badly designed Ethernet system shielding
> can behave much
> worse than an unshielded one. I have don EMC tests with foil-shielded TWP
> and unshielded TWP.
> If the shield and/or the connector are not connected properly then radiated
> emissions and
> susceptibility can be enhanced considerable.
> 
> On the other hand in a well designed system - using proper (foil) shield
> connection and a correct
> RJ45-chassis connection - I have found that foil shielded TWP can lower the
> radiated emissions
> by a factor of 4-6dB and increase the immunity for conducted and radiated
> emissions from 3Vrms
> and 3V/m to almost 10Vrms and 10V/m, respectively (using a criteria of 10%
> package loss). Most
> problems are encountered with conducted immunity in the range below 40MHz
> for 100BaseT.
> The same remarks apply for Electric Fast Transients: foil shielded  TWP can
> double the immunity level.
> 
> 
> Again, the shielding only works if the entire system uses proper
> connector-chassis and connector-shield
> connections. That means:
> -1- use fingered RJ45 connectors to connect directly to the chassis (though
> I have tested one product,
> were we do the connection by means of a single spring - it works, I
> have tested both foil and UTP).
> All are new products have a chassis connection on the RJ45 connector
> -2-  the foil needs to be continuous across the cable-connector, so it
> needs to be folded back in a 360 degree
> fashion and connect to the metal plating of the jack. The drain wire
> is also bend back and also contacts
> the metal plating of the jack.
> The cable I used was bought from a distributor. Depending were you
> buy one can get probably all
> kinds of performance levels. To my opinion one can check the cable
> shield continuity by means of visual
> inspection.
> 
> Note that I did not test (braid) shielded cable.
> 
> 
> 
> Kind regards,
> 
> Jan Vercammen
> 
> 
> 
> Kind regards,
> 
> 
> Jan Vercammen
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Doug Smith @majordomo.ieee.org on 02/22/2003 08:14:24 AM
> 
> Please respond to Doug Smith 
> 
> Sent by:  owner-emc-p...@majordomo.ieee.org
> 
> 
> To:   neve...@attbi.com
> cc:   emc-p...@majordomo.ieee.org
> Subject:  Re: Shieled ethernet cables in Germany
> 
> 
> Hi Nevin, George, and the group,
> 
> Although "screened" ethernet systems are favored in Europe, some of
> them perform considerably worst than unshielded systems in terms of
> emissions and immunity. Some poorly designed systems (use of pigtails
> on shields) radiate more, and even the best systems cannot match the
> immunity performance of unshielded systems in tests I helped perform
> in Switzerland a few years ago. The paper, published at Roma94 is
> posted on my site at:
> 
> http://emcesd.com/pdf/roma94.pdf
> 
> It is interesting to note that even good shielded systems can induce
> failures of PCs in IEC 61000-4-4 by providing a low impedance path for
> the common mode EMI to get "into the works" of the PCs, quite separate
> issue from the data transmission itself. Unshielded systems do not do
> this because of the CM chokes and balancing transformer design in the
> interface circuity.
> 
> Doug
> 
> neve...@attbi.com wrote:
>> To my knowledge, only when the Class B for Central-Office equipment has
> to be
>> met.
>> 
>> Neven
>> 
>>> Hello Group,
>>> 
>>> I heard recently that shielded Ethernet cables have become something of
>>> a customer-expectation-based defacto standard in Germany for
>>> installation of network type ITE equipment (routers, switches,
>>> firewalls, etc.)  Can anyone confirm or comment on that.  Is it like
>>> that anywhere else?
>>> 
>>> Thanks
>>> 
>>> George Stults
>>> WatchGuard Technologies Inc.
>>> 
> 
> --
> ---
> ___  _   Doug Smith
> \  / )  P.O. Box 1457
> =  Los Gatos, CA 95031-1457
> _ / \ / \ _   TEL/FAX: 408-356-4186/358-3799
> /  /\  \ ] /  /\  \ Mobile:  408-858-4528
> |  q-( )  |  o  |Email:   d...@dsmith.org
> \ _ /]\ _ / Website: http://www.dsmith.org
> ---
> 
> 
> ---
> This message is from the IEEE EMC Society Product Safety
> Technical Committee emc-pstc discussion list.
> 
> Visit our web site at:  http://www.ewh.ieee.org/soc/emcs/pstc/
> 
> To cancel your subscription, send mail to:
> majord...@ieee.org
> with the single line:
> unsubscribe emc-pstc
> 
> For help, send mail to the list administrators:
> Ron Pickard:  emc-

I need a EN 60730-1 Type A conformal coat

[Denomme, Paul S.]

I currently have a conformally coated board that I need to be tested according
to EN 60730-1.  The certification agency requires that my conformal coat be a
Type A conformal coat according to EN 60730-1.  (In other words it must fufill
annex P and Annex Q of EN 60730-1)  
 
I currently am using a Humiseal 1B73LOC conformal coat on the board.  The
agency requires that I have documentation that sates the coating meets the
requirements for EN60730-1.  I have called the manufacturer and they do not
seem to know anything about this requirement.  Whomever I speak with regarding
this requirement, does not seem to know anything about this.  Can anyone give
me a supplier name that is familiar with this requirement? If you have any
experience with this issue can you please let me know what you did to solve
this issue?
 
 
Regards and thank you in advance for your help.
 
Regards,
 

Paul S. Denomme 
Design Engineer 
Viasystems 
804-226-5155 
804-226-5193(fax) 

 


From: boconn...@t-yuden.com [mailto:boconn...@t-yuden.com]
Sent: Thursday, February 20, 2003 6:27 AM
To: emc-p...@majordomo.ieee.org
Subject: RE: IEC 61010 requirements



Mr Poore 

While you are correct in the intent and meaning of the standard; my point was,
that if the customer specs product compliance with standard xyz, than the
requirements of xyz becomes your design and test target. I have lost count of
the number of times that a customer has spec'd 601-1 or whatever, when either
x950 or x1010-1 is applicable for the intended end use. What the customer
wants, the customer gets (if he pays)...

Brian 



There are no requirements for using an isolation transformer as long as you
can meet the requirements for "touch" current (leakage current) without one.
These requirements are similiar to 950, and not as stringent as the medical
requirement.

 Chris Poore 
  
-Original Message- 
From: owner-emc-p...@majordomo.ieee.org 
Sent: Wednesday, February 19, 2003 11:42 AM 
To: emc-p...@majordomo.ieee.org 
Subject: RE: IEC 61010 requirements 

If end-use wiil never see contact w/patient or test subject, and equipment can
be classified as Electrical Test and/or Measurement equipment, and does NOT
fall under the scope of the Med Directive, and can be scoped under the LVD,
then 61010-1 is applicable standard.

Of course, the customer spec can require compliance to the Med Dev Dir. 

Brian 

-Original Message- 
From: Han, Delphina 
Sent: Wednesday, February 19, 2003 9:10 AM 
To: emc-p...@majordomo.ieee.org 
Subject: IEC 61010 requirements 

Hi 

I am trying to find out safety requirements for devices that control and 
monitor equipment in a hospital lab (used for pathology). Does it fall under 
the IEC 61010 standard? If so, are there any requirements for use of 
isolation transformers in that standard? 
  

RE: GOST standards

[John Allen]

Nick

Try the GOST Stds Search Engine on 
http://www.gost.ru/sls/gost.nsf/PVP/1762244D53B86C4AC32566DE0038560E?OpenDoc
ument&ALT

Regards

John Allen
Technical Consultant
Safety and Risk Management
ERA Technology Ltd
Cleeve Rd
Leatherhead
Surrey KT22 7SA
Tel:+44 (0) 1372-367025 (Direct)
+44 (0) 1372-367000 (Switchboard)
Fax:+44 (0) 1372-367102 (Fax)


From: Nick Williams [mailto:nick.willi...@conformance.co.uk]
Sent: 24 February 2003 10:31
To: emc-p...@majordomo.ieee.org
Subject: GOST standards



I've been asked to look at a piece of equipment which is made in 
Russia and which has numerous certifications to various GOST 
standards.

Is there anywhere I can identify some sort of cross reference between 
the GOST standard numbers and the EN standards (if indeed such a 
comparison is valid)?

In the absence of a more specific standard we've decided to apply the 
requirements for ITE, so equivalence to EN 60950 is the most 
important issue.

Any help gratefully received.

Regards

Nick.


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_
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*
Copyright ERA Technology Ltd. 2002. (www.era.co.uk). All rights reserved. 
The information supplied in this Commercial Communication should be treated
in confidence.
No liability whatsoever is accepted for any loss or damage 
suffered as a result of accessing this message or any attachments.

_
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Re: GOST standards

[John Woodgate]

I read in !emc-pstc that Nick Williams 
wrote (in ) about 'GOST standards'
on Mon, 24 Feb 2003:

>Is there anywhere I can identify some sort of cross reference between 
>the GOST standard numbers and the EN standards (if indeed such a 
>comparison is valid)?

For a very long time, GOST has adopted IEC standards without change.
However, I don't know of a cross-reference list available from IEC. You
could enquire through the IEC web page http://www.iec.ch

I expect GOST publishes one, but it will obviously be in Russian. There
is a GOST web page, with an English version, at http://www.gost.ru
-- 
Regards, John Woodgate, OOO - Own Opinions Only. http://www.jmwa.demon.co.uk 
Interested in professional sound reinforcement and distribution? Then go to 
http://www.isce.org.uk
PLEASE do NOT copy news posts to me by E-MAIL!


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GOST standards

[Nick Williams]

I've been asked to look at a piece of equipment which is made in 
Russia and which has numerous certifications to various GOST 
standards.

Is there anywhere I can identify some sort of cross reference between 
the GOST standard numbers and the EN standards (if indeed such a 
comparison is valid)?

In the absence of a more specific standard we've decided to apply the 
requirements for ITE, so equivalence to EN 60950 is the most 
important issue.

Any help gratefully received.

Regards

Nick.


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Re: Safety Requrement for wireless component in vehicle.

[Kim Boll Jensen]

This is a multi-part message in MIME format.
Dear Cheng-Wee Lai

For EU you will need an E marking, since 1/10 2002 the CE marking is not longer
enough for this kind of equipment. This approval process is not very good
implemented in EU. You are free to choose any national authority within EU but
they don't accept the same test houses. If we go off line I can help you
further.

See directive 71/245/EEC and 95/54/EEC.

In 95/54/EEC annex I 2.1.10 you can find a definition that includes electrical
connections and cables, which you equipment is substituting. Also you will need
to comply to the R&TTE directive 99/5/EC.

Best regards,

Kim Boll Jensen
Bolls Raadgivning
Denmark

k...@bolls.dk
www.bolls.dk

Cheng-Wee Lai skriver:

> Dear All,
>
> Automotive safety is not my field but I have come across this device that
> are maybe some of you can give me some input.
>
> This device (small black box) is an add on device that tap into vehicle
> signal wire, so information like braking, turning signaling, can be sent
> wirelessly to the back of the trailer without pulling wire to the back. The
> question is that are there any vehicle safety standard guarding this kind of
> device.
>
> My primary concern is the reliability of the signal get to the taillight,
> which could become a hazard if taillight fail to interpret signal on time
> and correctly.
>
> Thanks,
> Cheng-Wee Lai
>
> ---
> This message is from the IEEE EMC Society Product Safety
> Technical Committee emc-pstc discussion list.
>
> Visit our web site at:  http://www.ewh.ieee.org/soc/emcs/pstc/
>
> To cancel your subscription, send mail to:
>  majord...@ieee.org
> with the single line:
>  unsubscribe emc-pstc
>
> For help, send mail to the list administrators:
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>
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>
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> All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at:
> http://www.ieeecommunities.org/emc-pstc

Title: Re: Safety Requrement for wireless component in vehicle.






Dear Cheng-Wee Lai


For EU you will need an E marking, since 1/10 2002 the CE marking is not longer

enough for this kind of equipment. This approval process is not very good

implemented in EU. You are free to choose any national authority within EU but

they don't accept the same test houses. If we go off line I can help you

further.


See directive 71/245/EEC and 95/54/EEC.


In 95/54/EEC annex I 2.1.10 you can find a definition that includes electrical

connections and cables, which you equipment is substituting. Also you will need

to comply to the R&TTE directive 99/5/EC.


Best regards,


Kim Boll Jensen

Bolls Raadgivning

Denmark


k...@bolls.dk

www.bolls.dk


Cheng-Wee Lai skriver:


> Dear All,

>

> Automotive safety is not my field but I have come across this device that

> are maybe some of you can give me some input.

>

> This device (small black box) is an add on device that tap into vehicle

> signal wire, so information like braking, turning signaling, can be sent

> wirelessly to the back of the trailer without pulling wire to the back. The

> question is that are there any vehicle safety standard guarding this kind of

> device.

>

> My primary concern is the reliability of the signal get to the taillight,

> which could become a hazard if taillight fail to interpret signal on time

> and correctly.

>

> Thanks,

> Cheng-Wee Lai

>

> ---

> This message is from the IEEE EMC Society Product Safety

> Technical Committee emc-pstc discussion list.

>

> Visit our web site at:  http://www.ewh.ieee.org/soc/emcs/pstc/

>

> To cancel your subscription, send mail to:

>  majord...@ieee.org

> with the single line:

>  unsubscribe emc-pstc

>

> For help, send mail to the list administrators:

>  Ron Pickard:  emc-p...@hypercom.com

>  Dave Heald:   davehe...@attbi.com

>

> For policy questions, send mail to:

>  Richard Nute:   ri...@ieee.org

>  Jim Bacher: j.bac...@ieee.org

>

> Archive is being moved, we will announce when it is back on-line.

> All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at:

> http://www.ieeecommunities.org/emc-pstc




<>

Re: Shieled ethernet cables in Germany

[Jan Vercammen]

Hello,


I can confirm Doug's remarks, a badly designed Ethernet system shielding
can behave much
worse than an unshielded one. I have don EMC tests with foil-shielded TWP
and unshielded TWP.
If the shield and/or the connector are not connected properly then radiated
emissions and
susceptibility can be enhanced considerable.

On the other hand in a well designed system - using proper (foil) shield
connection and a correct
RJ45-chassis connection - I have found that foil shielded TWP can lower the
radiated emissions
by a factor of 4-6dB and increase the immunity for conducted and radiated
emissions from 3Vrms
and 3V/m to almost 10Vrms and 10V/m, respectively (using a criteria of 10%
package loss). Most
problems are encountered with conducted immunity in the range below 40MHz
for 100BaseT.
The same remarks apply for Electric Fast Transients: foil shielded  TWP can
double the immunity level.


Again, the shielding only works if the entire system uses proper
connector-chassis and connector-shield
connections. That means:
-1- use fingered RJ45 connectors to connect directly to the chassis (though
I have tested one product,
  were we do the connection by means of a single spring - it works, I
have tested both foil and UTP).
  All are new products have a chassis connection on the RJ45 connector
-2-  the foil needs to be continuous across the cable-connector, so it
needs to be folded back in a 360 degree
   fashion and connect to the metal plating of the jack. The drain wire
is also bend back and also contacts
   the metal plating of the jack.
   The cable I used was bought from a distributor. Depending were you
buy one can get probably all
   kinds of performance levels. To my opinion one can check the cable
shield continuity by means of visual
   inspection.

Note that I did not test (braid) shielded cable.



Kind regards,

Jan Vercammen



Kind regards,


Jan Vercammen






Doug Smith @majordomo.ieee.org on 02/22/2003 08:14:24 AM

Please respond to Doug Smith 

Sent by:  owner-emc-p...@majordomo.ieee.org


To:   neve...@attbi.com
cc:   emc-p...@majordomo.ieee.org
Subject:  Re: Shieled ethernet cables in Germany


Hi Nevin, George, and the group,

Although "screened" ethernet systems are favored in Europe, some of
them perform considerably worst than unshielded systems in terms of
emissions and immunity. Some poorly designed systems (use of pigtails
on shields) radiate more, and even the best systems cannot match the
immunity performance of unshielded systems in tests I helped perform
in Switzerland a few years ago. The paper, published at Roma94 is
posted on my site at:

http://emcesd.com/pdf/roma94.pdf

It is interesting to note that even good shielded systems can induce
failures of PCs in IEC 61000-4-4 by providing a low impedance path for
the common mode EMI to get "into the works" of the PCs, quite separate
issue from the data transmission itself. Unshielded systems do not do
this because of the CM chokes and balancing transformer design in the
interface circuity.

Doug

neve...@attbi.com wrote:
> To my knowledge, only when the Class B for Central-Office equipment has
to be
> met.
>
> Neven
>
>>Hello Group,
>>
>>I heard recently that shielded Ethernet cables have become something of
>>a customer-expectation-based defacto standard in Germany for
>>installation of network type ITE equipment (routers, switches,
>>firewalls, etc.)  Can anyone confirm or comment on that.  Is it like
>>that anywhere else?
>>
>>Thanks
>>
>>George Stults
>>WatchGuard Technologies Inc.
>>

--

 ___  _   Doug Smith
  \  / )  P.O. Box 1457
   =  Los Gatos, CA 95031-1457
_ / \ / \ _   TEL/FAX: 408-356-4186/358-3799
  /  /\  \ ] /  /\  \ Mobile:  408-858-4528
|  q-( )  |  o  |Email:   d...@dsmith.org
  \ _ /]\ _ / Website: http://www.dsmith.org




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http://www.ieeecommunities.org/emc-pstc





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 Ron Picka

RE: Shieled ethernet cables in Germany

[Nagel, Michael]

Hi Doug and the group,

I think the issue is a bit more complex than that. The cables can be an
effective antenna 
in both cases but the reasons are not the exactly the same.

Speaking for shielded cables the failures you have seen are (from my
experience) the already
mentioned pigtails, the connection of the shield on the RJ-45 connector and
- especially in 
the case of PCs - the far from ideal connection of the front panel of the
card to the enclosure.

The failures you have seen on shielded cables result quite often from this,
in the case of
immunity as well as emission. 

IMHO a shielded cable *needs* a good enclosure and a low impedance path to
protective ground 
but is less sensitive to "noisy" cards whereas unshielded cables are less
sensitive to not 
so good enclosures but more to *noisy* cards within the enclosure -
especially bad ground in 
the area of the signal transmitter (the Ethernet PHY).

Your opinion?

Best regards,
Michael

> -Original Message-
> From: Doug Smith [mailto:d...@emcesd.com]
> Sent: Samstag, 22. Februar 2003 08:14
> To: neve...@attbi.com
> Cc: emc-p...@majordomo.ieee.org
> Subject: Re: Shieled ethernet cables in Germany
> 
> 
> 
> Hi Nevin, George, and the group,
> 
> Although "screened" ethernet systems are favored in Europe, some of 
> them perform considerably worst than unshielded systems in terms of 
> emissions and immunity. Some poorly designed systems (use of pigtails 
> on shields) radiate more, and even the best systems cannot match the 
> immunity performance of unshielded systems in tests I helped perform 
> in Switzerland a few years ago. The paper, published at Roma94 is 
> posted on my site at:
> 
> http://emcesd.com/pdf/roma94.pdf
> 
> It is interesting to note that even good shielded systems can induce 
> failures of PCs in IEC 61000-4-4 by providing a low impedance 
> path for 
> the common mode EMI to get "into the works" of the PCs, quite 
> separate 
> issue from the data transmission itself. Unshielded systems do not do 
> this because of the CM chokes and balancing transformer design in the 
> interface circuity.
> 
> Doug
> 
> neve...@attbi.com wrote:
> > To my knowledge, only when the Class B for Central-Office 
> equipment has to be 
> > met.
> > 
> > Neven 
> > 
> >>Hello Group,
> >>
> >>I heard recently that shielded Ethernet cables have become 
> something of
> >>a customer-expectation-based defacto standard in Germany for
> >>installation of network type ITE equipment (routers, switches,
> >>firewalls, etc.)  Can anyone confirm or comment on that.  Is it like
> >>that anywhere else?
> >>
> >>Thanks
> >>
> >>George Stults
> >>WatchGuard Technologies Inc.
> >>
> 
> -- 
> ---
>  ___  _   Doug Smith
>   \  / )  P.O. Box 1457
>=  Los Gatos, CA 95031-1457
> _ / \ / \ _   TEL/FAX: 408-356-4186/358-3799
>   /  /\  \ ] /  /\  \ Mobile:  408-858-4528
> |  q-( )  |  o  |Email:   d...@dsmith.org
>   \ _ /]\ _ / Website: http://www.dsmith.org
> ---
> 
> 
> ---
> This message is from the IEEE EMC Society Product Safety
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AW: Blower Motor w/ European approval

[Horst Haug]

Dear Brian,

most European approval agencies accept an CSA approved blower also for
Europe. It means, that the f
- fammability
- motor blocking
- motor overlaod is checked already.

For CE-mark (= self declaration) above is sufficient.

With best regards
Horst


INNOVA Product Service GmbH
Ampferweg 6
Germany 87677 Stöttwang
Tel: (49) 8345-952727


Von: owner-emc-p...@majordomo.ieee.org
[mailto:owner-emc-p...@majordomo.ieee.org]Im Auftrag von
brian_ku...@leco.com
Gesendet: Freitag, 21. Februar 2003 16:05
An: emc-p...@ieee.org
Betreff: Blower Motor w/ European approval


We use a UL and CSA blower motor (230Volt 50/60hz) in one of our Instruments
(Lab Equipment).  We want to get the CE marking on this product so we are
looking for a drop in replacement motor that would have a European Safety
agency
approval.

The current motor is a standard blower motor like the ones used in a
bathroom
ventilator. I'm having a hard time finding one with a European approval.

If anyone knows of a US source for such a motor, please email me at the
address
below.

Thank you,
Brian Kunde
LECO Corp.

brian_ku...@leco.com




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