Re: [PSES] Review: Bay Area electronic surplus stores

[John Shinn]

Ken:
That was an excellent job of finding all of those component and surplus stores 
here in the south bay.

John Shinn

From: Ken Wyatt 
Sent: Monday, April 29, 2013 2:20 PM
To: EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG 
Subject: Review: Bay Area electronic surplus stores

Hi All, 

Just for fun...I reviewed the majority of electronics surplus stores in the 
South Bay Area during my activities at Design West (San Jose) last week.

Living in Colorado, there are only two decent electronic surplus stores in the 
state. So, when I traveled to the Bay Area for an EMC presentation this last 
week, I took the opportunity to spend one day exploring and reviewing the 
collection of electronic surplus stores centered in the Sunnyvale, Santa Clara 
and San Jose area.


http://www.tmworld.com/electronics-blogs/the-emc-blog/4412972/Review--Bay-Area-surplus-stores

Cheers, Ken
___
Kenneth Wyatt
Wyatt Technical Services LLC
Woodland Park, CO
k...@emc-seminars.com
Web  Newsletter
Connect with me on LinkedIn!

-


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Re: [PSES] NRTL requiring duplicate testing

[Peter Merguerian]

Christopher

No need to repeat 100% dielectric strength testing for Japan  . You must 
provide the importer test records showing test has been performed on 100% 
production. The importer must retain these records for METI inspection.

Peter

Sent from my iPhone

Peter S. Merguerian
pe...@goglobalcompliance.com
Go Global Compliance Inc.
www.goglobalcompliance.com
(408) 931-3303

On Apr 29, 2013, at 4:02 PM, Chris  wrote:

>  
> Carl,
>  
> you not alone dealing with such issues.
>  
> Similar rules also apply to the PSE marketed wall-wort power supply in Japan.
> We are also facing 100% dielectric voltage withstand testing be repeated on 
> all in coming power supplies
> Our porduct is a WiFi a/b/g/n device.
> I guess the Denon Law prevails and Meti is the agency that is responsible.
>  
> This process adds cost to our 12Vdc power supply.
> Labor in Japan is not cheap.
>  
> Christopher
> From: Carl Newton 
> To: EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG 
> Sent: Monday, April 29, 2013 11:54 AM
> Subject: NRTL requiring duplicate testing
> Customer has a medical wall-wort power supply that has the typical NRTL (call 
> them NRTL1) safety mark that you’d expect to see on a power supply marketed 
> within the USA.  Customer’s entire device is located within the secondary of 
> that wall-wort power supply and includes no connections to other mains 
> connected devices. 
>  
> Now another one of the large well-known NRTLs (I’ll call them NRTL2) which is 
> handling the AAMI 60601-1 project for customer’s end product is requiring 
> that 100% dielectric voltage withstand testing be repeated on the power 
> supplies.  The power supply manufacturer has provided sections of their NRTL1 
> File that details the requirement for 100% testing of their supply in 
> manufacturing as well as the voltage amplitude and duration required.  Still, 
> customer’s NRTL2 is demanding that this test be repeated upon 100% of the 
> power supplies at customer’s premises.  It appears that I have no choice but 
> to agree to repeat the additional testing.  This adds cost to manufacturing 
> and flies in the face of great efforts on the part of American manufacturers 
> that try to keep their operations within the USA by maximizing productivity.  
> I’ve worked on many other projects with wall-wort and external brick power 
> supplies with other NRTLs and this has never been a requirement.
>  
> I try to keep an open mind even when I’m disagreed with.  But I think that 
> this is the first time in my 30ish years of compliance work that I’ve seen 
> engineering judgment completely thrown out the window.  I’m interested in 
> other points of view.
>  
> Carl
> -
> 
> -
> 
> This message is from the IEEE Product Safety Engineering Society emc-pstc 
> discussion list. To post a message to the list, send your e-mail to 
> 
> 
> All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at: 
> http://www.ieee-pses.org/emc-pstc.html
> 
> Attachments are not permitted but the IEEE PSES Online Communities site at 
> http://product-compliance.oc.ieee.org/ can be used for graphics (in well-used 
> formats), large files, etc.
> 
> Website: http://www.ieee-pses.org/
> Instructions: http://listserv.ieee.org/request/user-guide.html
> List rules: http://www.ieee-pses.org/listrules.html
> 
> For help, send mail to the list administrators:
> Scott Douglas 
> Mike Cantwell 
> 
> For policy questions, send mail to:
> Jim Bacher 
> David Heald 

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Re: [PSES] NRTL requiring duplicate testing

[Carl Newton]

Hello Rich,

This issue has been decided by the "chief engineer" for all USA medical labs
at NRTL2.  The interesting part is that the staff safety engineers at NRTL2
appear to agree with me (including Sr engineers there).  I'm told that it's
the responsibility of the chief engineer to worry about liability, and I
certainly sympathize with those concerns in the overly litigious USA.
However, in this case we're dealing with a potted wall-wort power supply
with a 3m 15 V dc output cable on the secondary.  Engineering judgment still
should have its place within our (compliance engineering) world.  

In the past I've worked with the oldest (hint, hint, say-no-more) NRTL in
the USA on ITE and even industrial hazardous locations products with
external bricks and wall-worts and this additional dielectric voltage
withstand test was not imposed by them.  Same story with another German
based NRTL with presence here in the USA concerning an IVD device.  No
problems.  

Thanks to all for your views. 

Carl


-Original Message-
From: Richard Nute [mailto:ri...@ieee.org] 
Sent: Monday, April 29, 2013 5:03 PM
To: Carl Newton
Cc: EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG
Subject: Re: NRTL requiring duplicate testing



Hi Carl:


I suggest you take it up a notch with NRTL2. Take it up the management chain
at NRTL2. NRTL managers tend to be more open to issues of added cost to
their client, especially where the value of the requirement is questionable.

At the same time, the manager has some duty to support his engineers even
though the imposed requirement may not be clearly a good or logical one.

So, a high degree of finesse is necessary. Ideally, you want the NRTL2
engineer to take it up the management chain. You have to ask the NRTL2
engineer if he can present your case without bias.

If this fails, you should be prepared to physically visit the NRTL2 site and
discuss it with their management.

This is an interesting requirement because there is no money in it for
NRTL2. Usually, not accepting NRTL1 involves re-testing the requires you to
pay NRTL2 for the same work as NRTL1. But, here, it appears that
NRTL2 gets no money by imposing testing on you.


Good luck!
Rich




On 4/29/2013 11:54 AM, Carl Newton wrote:
>
> Customer has a medical wall-wort power supply that has the typical 
> NRTL (call them NRTL1) safety mark that you'd expect to see on a power 
> supply marketed within the USA. Customer's entire device is located 
> within the secondary of that wall-wort power supply and includes no 
> connections to other mains connected devices.
>
> Now another one of the large well-known NRTLs (I'll call them NRTL2) 
> which is handling the AAMI 60601-1 project for customer's end product 
> is requiring that 100% dielectric voltage withstand testing be 
> repeated on the power supplies. The power supply manufacturer has 
> provided sections of their NRTL1 File that details the requirement for 
> 100% testing of their supply in manufacturing as well as the voltage 
> amplitude and duration required. Still, customer's NRTL2 is demanding 
> that this test be repeated upon 100% of the power supplies at 
> customer's premises. It appears that I have no choice but to agree to 
> repeat the additional testing. This adds cost to manufacturing and 
> flies in the face of great efforts on the part of American 
> manufacturers that try to keep their operations within the USA by 
> maximizing productivity. I've worked on many other projects with 
> wall-wort and external brick power supplies with other NRTLs and this 
> has never been a requirement.
>
> I try to keep an open mind even when I'm disagreed with. But I think 
> that this is the first time in my 30ish years of compliance work that 
> I've seen engineering judgment _completely_ thrown out the window. I'm 
> interested in other points of view.
>
> Carl
>
>

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Re: [PSES] NRTL requiring duplicate testing

[Chris]

 
Carl,
 
you not alone dealing with such issues.
 
Similar rules also apply to the PSE marketed wall-wort power supply in Japan.
We are also facing 100% dielectric voltage withstand testing be repeated on all 
in coming power supplies

Our porduct is a WiFi a/b/g/n device. 
I guess the Denon Law prevails and Meti is the agency that is responsible.
 
This process adds cost to our 12Vdc power supply.
Labor in Japan is not cheap.
 
Christopher


 From: Carl Newton 
To: EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG 
Sent: Monday, April 29, 2013 11:54 AM
Subject: NRTL requiring duplicate testing
  
Customer has a medical wall-wort power supply that has the typical NRTL (call 
them NRTL1) safety mark that you’d expect to see on a power supply marketed 
within the USA.  Customer’s entire device is located within the secondary of 
that wall-wort power supply and includes no connections to other mains 
connected devices.  
 
Now another one of the large well-known NRTLs (I’ll call them NRTL2) which is 
handling the AAMI 60601-1 project for customer’s end product is requiring that 
100% dielectric voltage withstand testing be repeated on the power supplies.  
The power supply manufacturer has provided sections of their NRTL1 File that 
details the requirement for 100% testing of their supply in manufacturing as 
well as the voltage amplitude and duration required.  Still, customer’s NRTL2 
is demanding that this test be repeated upon 100% of the power supplies at 
customer’s premises.  It appears that I have no choice but to agree to repeat 
the additional testing.  This adds cost to manufacturing and flies in the face 
of great efforts on the part of American manufacturers that try to keep their 
operations within the USA by maximizing productivity.  I’ve worked on many 
other projects with wall-wort and external brick power supplies with other 
NRTLs and this has never
 been a requirement.
 
I try to keep an open mind even when I’m disagreed with.  But I think that this 
is the first time in my 30ish years of compliance work that I’ve seen 
engineering judgment completely thrown out the window.  I’m interested in other 
points of view.
 
Carl
-

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Re: [PSES] Review: Bay Area electronic surplus stores

[Pettit, Ghery]

Ken,

That TRS-80 would have made a great demo unit for why we have EMC regulations 
today.  I had one in my home over a weekend when I worked for the Navy in the 
late 1970s.  You did not watch television (antenna on roof, pre-cable) or 
listen to the radio in any radio service for which I had a receiver when that 
thing was turned on.  Broadband transmitter.  :)

Ghery S. Pettit

From: emc-p...@ieee.org [mailto:emc-p...@ieee.org] On Behalf Of Ken Wyatt
Sent: Monday, April 29, 2013 2:20 PM
To: EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG
Subject: Review: Bay Area electronic surplus stores

Hi All,

Just for fun...I reviewed the majority of electronics surplus stores in the 
South Bay Area during my activities at Design West (San Jose) last week.

Living in Colorado, there are only two decent electronic surplus stores in the 
state. So, when I traveled to the Bay Area for an EMC presentation this last 
week, I took the opportunity to spend one day exploring and reviewing the 
collection of electronic surplus stores centered in the Sunnyvale, Santa Clara 
and San Jose area.

http://www.tmworld.com/electronics-blogs/the-emc-blog/4412972/Review--Bay-Area-surplus-stores

Cheers, Ken
___
Kenneth Wyatt
Wyatt Technical Services LLC
Woodland Park, CO
k...@emc-seminars.com
Web  
Newsletter
Connect with me on LinkedIn!

-


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[PSES] Review: Bay Area electronic surplus stores

[Ken Wyatt]

Hi All,

Just for fun...I reviewed the majority of electronics surplus stores in the 
South Bay Area during my activities at Design West (San Jose) last week.

Living in Colorado, there are only two decent electronic surplus stores in the 
state. So, when I traveled to the Bay Area for an EMC presentation this last 
week, I took the opportunity to spend one day exploring and reviewing the 
collection of electronic surplus stores centered in the Sunnyvale, Santa Clara 
and San Jose area.

http://www.tmworld.com/electronics-blogs/the-emc-blog/4412972/Review--Bay-Area-surplus-stores

Cheers, Ken
___
Kenneth Wyatt
Wyatt Technical Services LLC
Woodland Park, CO
k...@emc-seminars.com
Web  Newsletter
Connect with me on LinkedIn!


-

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discussion list. To post a message to the list, send your e-mail to 


All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at:
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Attachments are not permitted but the IEEE PSES Online Communities site at 
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formats), large files, etc.

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Re: [PSES] NRTL requiring duplicate testing

[Richard Nute]

Hi Carl:


I suggest you take it up a notch with NRTL2. Take it up
the management chain at NRTL2. NRTL managers tend to be
more open to issues of added cost to their client,
especially where the value of the requirement is
questionable.

At the same time, the manager has some duty to support
his engineers even though the imposed requirement may
not be clearly a good or logical one.

So, a high degree of finesse is necessary. Ideally,
you want the NRTL2 engineer to take it up the management
chain. You have to ask the NRTL2 engineer if he can
present your case without bias.

If this fails, you should be prepared to physically
visit the NRTL2 site and discuss it with their management.

This is an interesting requirement because there is no
money in it for NRTL2. Usually, not accepting NRTL1
involves re-testing the requires you to pay NRTL2 for
the same work as NRTL1. But, here, it appears that
NRTL2 gets no money by imposing testing on you.


Good luck!
Rich




On 4/29/2013 11:54 AM, Carl Newton wrote:


Customer has a medical wall-wort power supply that has the typical 
NRTL (call them NRTL1) safety mark that you’d expect to see on a power 
supply marketed within the USA. Customer’s entire device is located 
within the secondary of that wall-wort power supply and includes no 
connections to other mains connected devices.


Now another one of the large well-known NRTLs (I’ll call them NRTL2) 
which is handling the AAMI 60601-1 project for customer’s end product 
is requiring that 100% dielectric voltage withstand testing be 
repeated on the power supplies. The power supply manufacturer has 
provided sections of their NRTL1 File that details the requirement for 
100% testing of their supply in manufacturing as well as the voltage 
amplitude and duration required. Still, customer’s NRTL2 is demanding 
that this test be repeated upon 100% of the power supplies at 
customer’s premises. It appears that I have no choice but to agree to 
repeat the additional testing. This adds cost to manufacturing and 
flies in the face of great efforts on the part of American 
manufacturers that try to keep their operations within the USA by 
maximizing productivity. I’ve worked on many other projects with 
wall-wort and external brick power supplies with other NRTLs and this 
has never been a requirement.


I try to keep an open mind even when I’m disagreed with. But I think 
that this is the first time in my 30ish years of compliance work that 
I’ve seen engineering judgment _completely_ thrown out the window. I’m 
interested in other points of view.


Carl




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Re: [PSES] Copyright-free images of product safety testing needed

[Brian Oconnell]

Looked at the annual PSES Symposioum presentations? I remember several with
these types of images.

Brian

-Original Message-
From: emc-p...@ieee.org [mailto:emc-p...@ieee.org]On Behalf Of Douglas
Nix
Sent: Monday, April 29, 2013 12:51 PM
To: EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG; PSES BOD
Subject: Copyright-free images of product safety testing needed

Colleagues,

The PSES will be holding a Product Safety Engineering Workshop in Vancouver,
BC, Canada in June, and I need your help.

I am designing a brochure / flyer for the event, and I am in desperate need
of some hi-resolution images of various kinds of product safety testing in
progress. I am interested in all sectors, and any kind of testing, drop
tests, impact tests, electrical tests, fire resistance tests, environmental
testing (heat cold, humidity, salt spray ...). I have searched the stock
photo databases extensively and come up dry. We need royalty-free images
that we can use, and possibly re-use, on flyers like this for events. We
would be happy to credit the source.

Any images you can share would be appreciated. I can handle virtually any
image format, and size.

If you have images you can share, please respond to me privately and we can
arrange the transfer.

Thanks in advance for your help!

Doug Nix
VP Conferences 2013/14
PSES

d...@ieee.org
+1 (519) 729-5704

-

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Re: [PSES] NRTL requiring duplicate testing

[John Woodgate]

In message 
, 
dated Mon, 29 Apr 2013, "McInturff, Gary"  
writes:


I understand the argument but the logic runs out of room pretty 
quickly, in my opinion, since there is also a chance for damage after 
shipping to the customer, does one then send someone to the end user's 
location to run the test again?


Well, no, because even the most militant safety freak realises that's 
impracticable. The test is done at the last sensible opportunity.


There were problems with this in the past. Some manufacturers shipped 
products into Europe without (plug-in) mains leads, expecting that the 
correct one for the country could be added by their agent. But that was 
classed as a 'manufacturing operation', calling for the safety tests to 
be performed, and of course the agents usually were not equipped or 
trained to do that.

--
OOO - Own Opinions Only. See www.jmwa.demon.co.uk
They took me to a specialist burns unit - and made me learn 'To a haggis'.

John Woodgate, J M Woodgate and Associates, Rayleigh, Essex UK

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Re: [PSES] NRTL requiring duplicate testing

[McInturff, Gary]

I understand the argument but the logic runs out of room pretty quickly, in my 
opinion, since there is also a chance for damage after shipping to the 
customer, does one then send someone to the end user's location to run the test 
again?  

Gary

-Original Message-
From: John Woodgate [mailto:j...@jmwa.demon.co.uk] 
Sent: Monday, April 29, 2013 12:37 PM
To: EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG
Subject: Re: [PSES] NRTL requiring duplicate testing

In message <00bf01ce450a$f8c6ca10$ea545e30$@gmail.com>, dated Mon, 29 
Apr 2013, Carl Newton  writes:

>  Still, customer?s NRTL2 is demanding that this test be repeated upon 
>100% of the power supplies at customer?s premises. 

I don't know 'custom and practice' in USA, but I would expect that 
requirement to apply in Europe. There is a minute but finite probability 
that the insulation could be compromised in transit or within the 
customer's premises. The dielectric strength test is therefore applied 
after the *last manufacturing operation*.
-- 
OOO - Own Opinions Only. See www.jmwa.demon.co.uk
They took me to a specialist burns unit - and made me learn 'To a haggis'.

John Woodgate, J M Woodgate and Associates, Rayleigh, Essex UK

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[PSES] Copyright-free images of product safety testing needed

[Douglas Nix]

Colleagues,

The PSES will be holding a Product Safety Engineering Workshop in Vancouver, 
BC, Canada in June, and I need your help.

I am designing a brochure / flyer for the event, and I am in desperate need of 
some hi-resolution images of various kinds of product safety testing in 
progress. I am interested in all sectors, and any kind of testing, drop tests, 
impact tests, electrical tests, fire resistance tests, environmental testing 
(heat cold, humidity, salt spray ...). I have searched the stock photo 
databases extensively and come up dry. We need royalty-free images that we can 
use, and possibly re-use, on flyers like this for events. We would be happy to 
credit the source.

Any images you can share would be appreciated. I can handle virtually any image 
format, and size.

If you have images you can share, please respond to me privately and we can 
arrange the transfer.

Thanks in advance for your help!

Doug Nix
VP Conferences 2013/14
PSES

d...@ieee.org
+1 (519) 729-5704

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Re: [PSES] NRTL requiring duplicate testing

[Tom Smith]

There is no requirement in the US for one NRTL to accept the results of mark
of another NRTL, though generally many will. 

Regards,

Tom Smith, P.Eng 

Principal Engineer
TJS Technical Services Inc.

Tel: +1 403-612-6664 

Email:   tsm...@tjstechnical.com 
  http://tjstechnical.com 

Follow us on Twitter: TJS_Technical

 

From: emc-p...@ieee.org [mailto:emc-p...@ieee.org] On Behalf Of Carl Newton
Sent: April-29-13 12:54 PM
To: EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG
Subject: NRTL requiring duplicate testing

 

Customer has a medical wall-wort power supply that has the typical NRTL
(call them NRTL1) safety mark that you'd expect to see on a power supply
marketed within the USA.  Customer's entire device is located within the
secondary of that wall-wort power supply and includes no connections to
other mains connected devices.  

 

Now another one of the large well-known NRTLs (I'll call them NRTL2) which
is handling the AAMI 60601-1 project for customer's end product is requiring
that 100% dielectric voltage withstand testing be repeated on the power
supplies.  The power supply manufacturer has provided sections of their
NRTL1 File that details the requirement for 100% testing of their supply in
manufacturing as well as the voltage amplitude and duration required.
Still, customer's NRTL2 is demanding that this test be repeated upon 100% of
the power supplies at customer's premises.  It appears that I have no choice
but to agree to repeat the additional testing.  This adds cost to
manufacturing and flies in the face of great efforts on the part of American
manufacturers that try to keep their operations within the USA by maximizing
productivity.  I've worked on many other projects with wall-wort and
external brick power supplies with other NRTLs and this has never been a
requirement.

 

I try to keep an open mind even when I'm disagreed with.  But I think that
this is the first time in my 30ish years of compliance work that I've seen
engineering judgment completely thrown out the window.  I'm interested in
other points of view.

 

Carl

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Re: [PSES] NRTL requiring duplicate testing

[John Woodgate]

In message <00bf01ce450a$f8c6ca10$ea545e30$@gmail.com>, dated Mon, 29 
Apr 2013, Carl Newton  writes:


  Still, customer?s NRTL2 is demanding that this test be repeated upon 
100% of the power supplies at customer?s premises. 


I don't know 'custom and practice' in USA, but I would expect that 
requirement to apply in Europe. There is a minute but finite probability 
that the insulation could be compromised in transit or within the 
customer's premises. The dielectric strength test is therefore applied 
after the *last manufacturing operation*.

--
OOO - Own Opinions Only. See www.jmwa.demon.co.uk
They took me to a specialist burns unit - and made me learn 'To a haggis'.

John Woodgate, J M Woodgate and Associates, Rayleigh, Essex UK

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[PSES] NRTL requiring duplicate testing

[Carl Newton]

Customer has a medical wall-wort power supply that has the typical NRTL
(call them NRTL1) safety mark that you'd expect to see on a power supply
marketed within the USA.  Customer's entire device is located within the
secondary of that wall-wort power supply and includes no connections to
other mains connected devices.  

 

Now another one of the large well-known NRTLs (I'll call them NRTL2) which
is handling the AAMI 60601-1 project for customer's end product is requiring
that 100% dielectric voltage withstand testing be repeated on the power
supplies.  The power supply manufacturer has provided sections of their
NRTL1 File that details the requirement for 100% testing of their supply in
manufacturing as well as the voltage amplitude and duration required.
Still, customer's NRTL2 is demanding that this test be repeated upon 100% of
the power supplies at customer's premises.  It appears that I have no choice
but to agree to repeat the additional testing.  This adds cost to
manufacturing and flies in the face of great efforts on the part of American
manufacturers that try to keep their operations within the USA by maximizing
productivity.  I've worked on many other projects with wall-wort and
external brick power supplies with other NRTLs and this has never been a
requirement.

 

I try to keep an open mind even when I'm disagreed with.  But I think that
this is the first time in my 30ish years of compliance work that I've seen
engineering judgment completely thrown out the window.  I'm interested in
other points of view.

 

Carl


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Re: [PSES] ESD test setup

[John Woodgate]

In message <8cc4260f-a9fe-4004-8216-5d20a3dff...@umn.edu>, dated Mon, 29 
Apr 2013, Curt McNamara  writes:



There has been a debate as to whether this can effect results.


Debate is probably not useful. Do you see any inconsistencies in test 
results that suggest that a charge on the tester and gun case is 
affecting things? If not, I suggest relaxing.

--
OOO - Own Opinions Only. See www.jmwa.demon.co.uk
They took me to a specialist burns unit - and made me learn 'To a haggis'.

John Woodgate, J M Woodgate and Associates, Rayleigh, Essex UK

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[PSES] ESD test setup

[Curt McNamara]

We occasionally do pre-tests with a setup where the tester is on a normal floor 
(though in some cases this is ESD flooring).

There has been a debate as to whether this can effect results. If the tester 
had picked up a charge, it would be present on the outside of his body and the 
outside of the ESD gun.

However, the ESD gun would be connected to ground, so its' tip would produce 
the correct voltage with respect to the EUT. 

Any comments about this?

  Curt

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Re: [PSES] ITE and POE

[John Woodgate]

In message <34d1809f$1301cddd$1e271f4b$@radiusnorth.net>, dated Mon, 29 
Apr 2013, "sdoug...@radiusnorth.net"  writes:


The product is ITE and powered by an EPS at 12V DC, 24W. Normally I 
would say safety is not required for the product, only for the EPS. But 
this product can also be powered by POE.


This is pure ITE, with no wireless, so that the RTTED doesn't apply?


Question is, does the addition of POE bring any requirements that would 
require the product be sent out for safety testing? Or can I still 
declare the product does not need safety testing?


For the LVD and therefore IEC 60950-1, what is significant is the supply 
voltage. If the POE voltage is below the lower boundary in the LVD, 
adding POE hasn't changed anything.

--
OOO - Own Opinions Only. See www.jmwa.demon.co.uk
They took me to a specialist burns unit - and made me learn 'To a haggis'.

John Woodgate, J M Woodgate and Associates, Rayleigh, Essex UK

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[PSES] ITE and POE

[sdoug...@radiusnorth.net]

Fellow Listers,

Been a long time since I had a product for ITE safety to 60950-1. I know 
there have been changes since my last effort.

The product is ITE and powered by an EPS at 12V DC, 24W. Normally I would 
say safety is not required for the product, only for the EPS. But this 
product can also be powered by POE.

Question is, does the addition of POE bring any requirements that would 
require the product be sent out for safety testing? Or can I still declare 
the product does not need safety testing?

The EPS will, of course, have any and all necesary safety and ErP approvals 
met.

Markets are US, Canada, EU to start with.

As always, any comments are appreciated.

Best regards,
Scott



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Re: [PSES] Mode-stirred, Mode-tuned, Reverb - what's the difference?

[Luke Turnbull]

Hi all,

Our experience is that you get pretty much the same levels with either a 
reverberation chamber, or with high gain antennas in a regular anechoic 
chamber.  It is possible to increase the antenna gain by 3 or 4 dB compared to 
"traditional methods", and get up to the same levels achieved in a 
reverberation chamber.  Our methods achieve a minimum 3000 V/m, 1-18 GHz in a 
regular anechoic chamber.

Luke Turnbull

Dr Luke Turnbull
EMC Technical Manager
TRW Conekt
Stratford Road
Solihull
West Midlands B90 4GW
United Kingdom

Tel:+44 (0)121.627.3966

email:  luke.turnb...@trw.com
web: www.conekt.co.uk

From: emc-p...@ieee.org [mailto:emc-p...@ieee.org] On Behalf Of Ed Price
Sent: 28 April 2013 17:53
To: EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG
Subject: RE: [PSES] Mode-stirred, Mode-tuned, Reverb - what's the difference?



You can take advantage of the multiple reflections in a chamber (actually 
enhancing the reflections through the use of the moving mechanical structures) 
to achieve higher E-fields. This allows you to get higher E-fields for a test 
like RS103 than you could get using traditional methods.



Ed Price
WB6WSN
Chula Vista, CA  USA

From: Pat Lawler [mailto:pat.law...@verizon.net]
Sent: Sunday, April 28, 2013 7:38 AM
To: EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG
Subject: [PSES] Mode-stirred, Mode-tuned, Reverb - what's the difference?

All,

Over the years, I've come across pictures of test chambers with descriptions 
such as mode-stirred, mode-turned, and reverberation.  They seem to look 
similar, with metal walls and rotating metal paddles.

Do these names reference the same basic design, or are they different animals?  
Which ones are used for which type of RF immunity test?

Thanks,
Pat Lawler
Teset engineer

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Re: [PSES] Mode-stirred, Mode-tuned, Reverb - what's the difference?

[John Woodgate]

In message <01ce44b0$5e8c02d0$1ba40870$@cox.net>, dated Mon, 29 Apr 
2013, Ed Price  writes:



Excuse me while I go trademark some stuff.


Don't forget to add 'i-Chamber' to the list. This will be pocket size 
but use Tardis technology to make the internal volume as large as 
necessary.

--
OOO - Own Opinions Only. See www.jmwa.demon.co.uk
They took me to a specialist burns unit - and made me learn 'To a haggis'.

John Woodgate, J M Woodgate and Associates, Rayleigh, Essex UK

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Re: [PSES] Mode-stirred, Mode-tuned, Reverb - what's the difference?

[Ed Price]

So I suppose when the next leap of speed is made in the design and/or operation 
of reverberant chambers, we can expect them to be marketed as Turbo Reverbs. 
Add another improvement, and we'll be buying Turbo Surfer Reverbs. Excuse me 
while I go trademark some stuff.
But then the rules will change and...

Ed Price
WB6WSN
Chula Vista, CA  USA

-Original Message-
From: John Woodgate [mailto:j...@jmwa.demon.co.uk] 
Sent: Sunday, April 28, 2013 11:40 PM
To: EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG
Subject: Re: [PSES] Mode-stirred, Mode-tuned, Reverb - what's the difference?

In message
,
dated Sun, 28 Apr 2013, Pat Lawler  writes:

>Do these names reference the same basic design, or are they different 
>animals?  Which ones are used for which type of RF immunity test?

IEC 61000-4-21 (114 pages) contains a great deal of information on this 
technique. A note to the definition of 'reverberation chamber' reads:

NOTE 3 Testing in a reverberation chamber can be described as a stochastic 
process in which the mechanical tuners/stirrers “stir” 
the “modes” inside the enclosure. Therefore, such chambers is also called 
stirred-mode, mode-stirred or mode-tuned chamber.
--
OOO - Own Opinions Only. See www.jmwa.demon.co.uk They took me to a specialist 
burns unit - and made me learn 'To a haggis'.

John Woodgate, J M Woodgate and Associates, Rayleigh, Essex UK

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