[PSES] Rear panel marking
Hi Ian, Being new to this forum I have been somewhat reluctant to give my opinion. However, I do get annoyed when engineers get a bee in their bonnet about issues that are not really issues. Having spent the last twenty plus years doing safety testing to IEC 60950-1, IEC 60065, IEC 61010-1 and various others I find this somewhat bewildering. My normal approach is to look at what the standard says (as opposed to the engineer) and in particular find it useful to refer back to definitions. IEC 60065 states: 2.3.10 RATED POWER CONSUMPTION power in watts consumed in an apparatus operating at its RATED SUPPLY VOLTAGE under normal operating conditions So when the audio amplifier is operated at full normal load as specified in clause 4.2.4 of IEC 60065 it is expected that the maximum power that will be drawn is 80W. Clause 5.1 h) states that: h) RATED CURRENT CONSUMPTION or RATED POWER CONSUMPTION for apparatus intended for connection to an a.c. MAINS supply. The measured consumption at RATED SUPPLY VOLTAGE shall not exceed the marked value by more than 10% My understanding is that the marked value is 80W irrespective of the Max Power and that an actual value of 88W could be permissible in accordance with the above clause. There is no text to indicate that this requirement doesn't apply because of the Max Power Well that's my opinion and I hope it is of some help. Best regards Paul Hesp Senior Safety Engineer York EMC Services | Three Lane Ends Business Centre | Methley Road | Castleford | WF10 1PN Tel: +44 (0) 1977 731173 | Fax: +44 (0) 1977 603181 | Website: http://www.yorkemc.co.uk/ http://www.yorkemc.co.uk Disclaimer: http://www.yorkemc.co.uk/Disclaimer http://www.yorkemc.co.uk/Disclaimer From: Pete Perkins [mailto:peperkin...@cs.com] Sent: 22 January 2014 19:01 To: EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG mailto:EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG Subject: Re: [PSES] Rear panel marking PSNet Ian, Having worked with a number of test houses over the last 35 years on lots of products under various standards it is clear that developing a good (i.e. amiable) working relationship with the lab staff is key to getting all of your products thru the lab in a timely way. I have had to go over the lab engineer's head in only one case in that time; not a bad record from my point of view. The suggestion to develop a set of compromises to work thru the issue is a good one. You know your products and their marketplace in much more detail than the lab engineers; they know the standard and its usage in a much broader set of circumstances than you see regularly. Each has something to offer from their perspective. Altho it can be quite messy getting there, in the end there will be compromise on both sides; hopefully more so for the manufacturer but, in any event, resolution in each case. Hopefully you resolve this quickly and develop a good relationship with that particular lab engineer; when you do get such a good relationship work to keep it together by negotiating to get your next product back to the same person. I've chosen not to talk about some of the technical details already addressed - e.g. lab measurement uncertainty, CTL equipment cal tolerances, etc. but they all apply to the lab and their work nor have I addressed the intent of the standard which leads to the within 10% over rule (and is applied broadly across equipment standards). You have a lifetime project ahead of you if you want to attack these fundamental issues head-on; not a particularly good approach to get the present product to market in a timely way. Good luck in working this thru. :) br, Pete Peter E Perkins, PE Principal Product Safety Engineer PO Box 23427 Tigard, ORe 97281-3427 503/452-1201 fone/fax p.perk...@ieee.org mailto:p.perk...@ieee.org _ _ _ _ _ Dear colleagues. We have a product that is marked Max Power 80W on the rear panel. I have been informed by the testing agency that this is not compliant with the requirements of IEC 60065 because the actual power consumption is 82.1W. The clause in the standard allows for a 10% tolerance but I am told by the testing agency because the rear panel states Max Power this tolerance doesn't apply. Is this correct and can anyone let me know if there is a tolerance figure as power consumption varies slightly with ac input voltage. Many thanks in advance. Ian McBurney Design Compliance Engineer. Allen Heath Ltd. Kernick Industrial Estate, Penryn, Cornwall. TR10 9LU. UK T: 01326 372070 E: ian.mcbur...@allen-heath.com mailto:ian.mcbur...@allen-heath.com - This message is from the IEEE
Re: [PSES] Rear panel marking
In message 01cf18e8$8187e580$8497b080$@yorkemc.co.uk, dated Fri, 24 Jan 2014, Paul Hesp paul.h...@yorkemc.co.uk writes: My understanding is that the marked value is 80W irrespective of the ?Max Power? and that an actual value of 88W could be permissible in accordance with the above clause. There is no text to indicate that this requirement doesn?t apply because of the ?Max Power? The test house appears to hold that what is stated is not 'rated power' as required by the standard and to which a 10% tolerance applies, but a (undefined in the standard) 'maximum power' which, being 'maximum', ipso facto must not be exceeded by any sample. It is difficult to contest that in strict logic. The solution is to delete 'max'. -- OOO - Own Opinions Only. With best wishes. See www.jmwa.demon.co.uk Nondum ex silvis sumus John Woodgate, J M Woodgate and Associates, Rayleigh, Essex UK - This message is from the IEEE Product Safety Engineering Society emc-pstc discussion list. To post a message to the list, send your e-mail to emc-p...@ieee.org All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at: http://www.ieee-pses.org/emc-pstc.html Attachments are not permitted but the IEEE PSES Online Communities site at http://product-compliance.oc.ieee.org/ can be used for graphics (in well-used formats), large files, etc. Website: http://www.ieee-pses.org/ Instructions: http://www.ieee-pses.org/list.html (including how to unsubscribe) List rules: http://www.ieee-pses.org/listrules.html For help, send mail to the list administrators: Scott Douglas emcp...@radiusnorth.net Mike Cantwell mcantw...@ieee.org For policy questions, send mail to: Jim Bacher: j.bac...@ieee.org David Heald: dhe...@gmail.com
[PSES] Audio Frequency Induction Loop
Hi Anyone aware of any interference from Trams (750V DC Overhead Catenary Systems, max current 1000A) on AFIL systems (EN 60118-4:2006). From my very basic calculation you need a significant separation distance (in excess of 25m). Any previous studies or examples would be most helpful. Regards Andy - This message is from the IEEE Product Safety Engineering Society emc-pstc discussion list. To post a message to the list, send your e-mail to emc-p...@ieee.org All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at: http://www.ieee-pses.org/emc-pstc.html Attachments are not permitted but the IEEE PSES Online Communities site at http://product-compliance.oc.ieee.org/ can be used for graphics (in well-used formats), large files, etc. Website: http://www.ieee-pses.org/ Instructions: http://www.ieee-pses.org/list.html (including how to unsubscribe) List rules: http://www.ieee-pses.org/listrules.html For help, send mail to the list administrators: Scott Douglas emcp...@radiusnorth.net Mike Cantwell mcantw...@ieee.org For policy questions, send mail to: Jim Bacher: j.bac...@ieee.org David Heald: dhe...@gmail.com
Re: [PSES] Audio Frequency Induction Loop
In message beda313b3e2b304ca6a08001bd61c9c01a257...@ukmb01.mottmac.group.int, dated Fri, 24 Jan 2014, McCallum, Andy andy.mccal...@mottmac.com writes: Anyone aware of any interference from Trams (750V DC Overhead Catenary Systems, max current 1000A) on AFIL systems (EN 60118-4:2006). From my very basic calculation you need a significant separation distance (in excess of 25m). Any previous studies or examples would be most helpful. I don't have any studies or examples, but I'm heavily involved with that standard; I'm actually editing the next edition today! Of course, the system doesn't pass DC and very low and high frequencies, so it's a question of transients, from about 20 ms down to perhaps 100 μs. If you care to tell me how you calculated 25 m, I will compare it with my calculations. Meanwhile, I'll ask around in the AFILS community. Any reports submitted here might well contribute to the next but one edition of IEC 60118-4 or a planned Technical Report covering all aspects of AFILS - purchase, design, installation, maintenance and 'care and feeding'. -- OOO - Own Opinions Only. With best wishes. See www.jmwa.demon.co.uk Nondum ex silvis sumus John Woodgate, J M Woodgate and Associates, Rayleigh, Essex UK - This message is from the IEEE Product Safety Engineering Society emc-pstc discussion list. To post a message to the list, send your e-mail to emc-p...@ieee.org All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at: http://www.ieee-pses.org/emc-pstc.html Attachments are not permitted but the IEEE PSES Online Communities site at http://product-compliance.oc.ieee.org/ can be used for graphics (in well-used formats), large files, etc. Website: http://www.ieee-pses.org/ Instructions: http://www.ieee-pses.org/list.html (including how to unsubscribe) List rules: http://www.ieee-pses.org/listrules.html For help, send mail to the list administrators: Scott Douglas emcp...@radiusnorth.net Mike Cantwell mcantw...@ieee.org For policy questions, send mail to: Jim Bacher: j.bac...@ieee.org David Heald: dhe...@gmail.com
Re: [PSES] Audio Frequency Induction Loop
750V DC Overhead Catenary Systems... When I lived in the Barcelona area, the local rail system used color TV (crt) monitors to provide the timetable. As a train approached the station, the colors and then the shape of the display would distort, getting worse as the train got closer. Then, when the train was stopped, the display was normal... until the train started moving out of the station. The magnetic field, proportional to current, of the overhead wire would cause the distortion in the display. Since the distortion was proportional to distance the train was from the station, and had no other perturbations, I assumed the current was d.c. The shortest distance from the wire to the monitor was in the order of 5 meters. Rich On 1/24/2014 8:29 AM, John Woodgate wrote: In message beda313b3e2b304ca6a08001bd61c9c01a257...@ukmb01.mottmac.group.int, dated Fri, 24 Jan 2014, McCallum, Andy andy.mccal...@mottmac.com writes: Anyone aware of any interference from Trams (750V DC Overhead Catenary Systems, max current 1000A) on AFIL systems (EN 60118-4:2006). From my very basic calculation you need a significant separation distance (in excess of 25m). Any previous studies or examples would be most helpful. I don't have any studies or examples, but I'm heavily involved with that standard; I'm actually editing the next edition today! Of course, the system doesn't pass DC and very low and high frequencies, so it's a question of transients, from about 20 ms down to perhaps 100 μs. If you care to tell me how you calculated 25 m, I will compare it with my calculations. Meanwhile, I'll ask around in the AFILS community. Any reports submitted here might well contribute to the next but one edition of IEC 60118-4 or a planned Technical Report covering all aspects of AFILS - purchase, design, installation, maintenance and 'care and feeding'. - This message is from the IEEE Product Safety Engineering Society emc-pstc discussion list. To post a message to the list, send your e-mail to emc-p...@ieee.org All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at: http://www.ieee-pses.org/emc-pstc.html Attachments are not permitted but the IEEE PSES Online Communities site at http://product-compliance.oc.ieee.org/ can be used for graphics (in well-used formats), large files, etc. Website: http://www.ieee-pses.org/ Instructions: http://www.ieee-pses.org/list.html (including how to unsubscribe) List rules: http://www.ieee-pses.org/listrules.html For help, send mail to the list administrators: Scott Douglas emcp...@radiusnorth.net Mike Cantwell mcantw...@ieee.org For policy questions, send mail to: Jim Bacher: j.bac...@ieee.org David Heald: dhe...@gmail.com
Re: [PSES] Audio Frequency Induction Loop
There was a paper some years ago detailing the effect of EU railway traction engine 16 2/3 Hz catenaries on automatic external defibrillators (AED's) underneath. Seeing that frequency on ECG sensors, some devices would assume a non-treatable condition and fail to administer s shock to stop actual fibrillation. Cortland Richmond - This message is from the IEEE Product Safety Engineering Society emc-pstc discussion list. To post a message to the list, send your e-mail to emc-p...@ieee.org All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at: http://www.ieee-pses.org/emc-pstc.html Attachments are not permitted but the IEEE PSES Online Communities site at http://product-compliance.oc.ieee.org/ can be used for graphics (in well-used formats), large files, etc. Website: http://www.ieee-pses.org/ Instructions: http://www.ieee-pses.org/list.html (including how to unsubscribe) List rules: http://www.ieee-pses.org/listrules.html For help, send mail to the list administrators: Scott Douglas emcp...@radiusnorth.net Mike Cantwell mcantw...@ieee.org For policy questions, send mail to: Jim Bacher: j.bac...@ieee.org David Heald: dhe...@gmail.com
Re: [PSES] Audio Frequency Induction Loop
Is there any mitigation of the magnetic fields due to the supply of current being split? For example, some current coming from one direction along the cable and some coming from the other? The reverse directions of the currents act a lot like twisted pair and cancel the fields a bit, at least near the train. I don't know what values are in the spec you referenced, but standing within 10 feet of the light rail in San Jose, CA as it passed, I rarely measured more field that 1-2uT down into the 5Hz bandwidth. Actually, I couldn't tell how much came from motor drive and how much came from deflection of earth's field, because gasoline powered large semi's going by produced a lot of change too. --- andy.mccal...@mottmac.com wrote: From: McCallum, Andy andy.mccal...@mottmac.com To: EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG Subject: [PSES] Audio Frequency Induction Loop Date: Fri, 24 Jan 2014 14:25:55 + Hi Anyone aware of any interference from Trams (750V DC Overhead Catenary Systems, max current 1000A) on AFIL systems (EN 60118-4:2006). From my very basic calculation you need a significant separation distance (in excess of 25m). Any previous studies or examples would be most helpful. Regards Andy - This message is from the IEEE Product Safety Engineering Society emc-pstc discussion list. To post a message to the list, send your e-mail to emc-p...@ieee.org All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at: http://www.ieee-pses.org/emc-pstc.html Attachments are not permitted but the IEEE PSES Online Communities site at http://product-compliance.oc.ieee.org/ can be used for graphics (in well-used formats), large files, etc. Website: http://www.ieee-pses.org/ Instructions: http://www.ieee-pses.org/list.html (including how to unsubscribe) List rules: http://www.ieee-pses.org/listrules.html For help, send mail to the list administrators: Scott Douglas emcp...@radiusnorth.net Mike Cantwell mcantw...@ieee.org For policy questions, send mail to: Jim Bacher: j.bac...@ieee.org David Heald: dhe...@gmail.com
Re: [PSES] Audio Frequency Induction Loop
In 1999, I performed a field survey of a number of stations on the San Francisco Bay Area Rapid Transit (BART) system. I measured the RF spectrum, at each station, 30 kHz to 3 MHz H-field and 300 kHz to 12 GHz E-field, over a period of about 8 hours. I also measured the AC power quality during theis period. The worst emissions I encountered were passenger-carried electronics; all other sources, from commutation noise to licensed emitters to nearby vehicles, were not very bothersome. Surprisingly, the AC power quality within the stations was very good. However, the station agents were equipped with CRT computer monitors, and many of these exhibited complete disruption from magnetic fields created by train motion. As Rich reports, the screen disruptions were present as trains decelerated into, and accelerated out of, the stations. Stopped trains caused no disruption, and once the train had essentially cleared the station area, normal CRT operation returned. It was a denial of use that the operators had learned to cope with. The cheap solution was to switch those CRT monitors to that new-fangled LED technology (plasma screens were considered, but too costly). I created a detailed report that I can share with anyone who would request it (about 5 MB in Word). Ed Price WB6WSN Chula Vista, CA USA -Original Message- From: Richard Nute [mailto:ri...@ieee.org] Sent: Friday, January 24, 2014 9:32 AM To: EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG Subject: Re: [PSES] Audio Frequency Induction Loop 750V DC Overhead Catenary Systems... When I lived in the Barcelona area, the local rail system used color TV (crt) monitors to provide the timetable. As a train approached the station, the colors and then the shape of the display would distort, getting worse as the train got closer. Then, when the train was stopped, the display was normal... until the train started moving out of the station. The magnetic field, proportional to current, of the overhead wire would cause the distortion in the display. Since the distortion was proportional to distance the train was from the station, and had no other perturbations, I assumed the current was d.c. The shortest distance from the wire to the monitor was in the order of 5 meters. Rich On 1/24/2014 8:29 AM, John Woodgate wrote: In message mailto:beda313b3e2b304ca6a08001bd61c9c01a257...@ukmb01.mottmac.group.int beda313b3e2b304ca6a08001bd61c9c01a257...@ukmb01.mottmac.group.int, dated Fri, 24 Jan 2014, McCallum, Andy mailto:andy.mccal...@mottmac.com andy.mccal...@mottmac.com writes: Anyone aware of any interference from Trams (750V DC Overhead Catenary Systems, max current 1000A) on AFIL systems (EN 60118-4:2006). From my very basic calculation you need a significant separation distance (in excess of 25m). Any previous studies or examples would be most helpful. I don't have any studies or examples, but I'm heavily involved with that standard; I'm actually editing the next edition today! Of course, the system doesn't pass DC and very low and high frequencies, so it's a question of transients, from about 20 ms down to perhaps 100 μs. If you care to tell me how you calculated 25 m, I will compare it with my calculations. Meanwhile, I'll ask around in the AFILS community. Any reports submitted here might well contribute to the next but one edition of IEC 60118-4 or a planned Technical Report covering all aspects of AFILS - purchase, design, installation, maintenance and 'care and feeding'. - This message is from the IEEE Product Safety Engineering Society emc-pstc discussion list. To post a message to the list, send your e-mail to mailto:emc-p...@ieee.org emc-p...@ieee.org All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at: http://www.ieee-pses.org/emc-pstc.html http://www.ieee-pses.org/emc-pstc.html Attachments are not permitted but the IEEE PSES Online Communities site at http://product-compliance.oc.ieee.org/ http://product-compliance.oc.ieee.org/ can be used for graphics (in well-used formats), large files, etc. Website: http://www.ieee-pses.org/ http://www.ieee-pses.org/ Instructions: http://www.ieee-pses.org/list.html http://www.ieee-pses.org/list.html (including how to unsubscribe) List rules: http://www.ieee-pses.org/listrules.html http://www.ieee-pses.org/listrules.html For help, send mail to the list administrators: Scott Douglas mailto:emcp...@radiusnorth.net emcp...@radiusnorth.net Mike Cantwell mailto:mcantw...@ieee.org mcantw...@ieee.org For policy questions, send mail to: Jim Bacher: mailto:j.bac...@ieee.org j.bac...@ieee.org David Heald: mailto:dhe...@gmail.com dhe...@gmail.com - This message is from the IEEE Product Safety Engineering
Re: [PSES] Audio Frequency Induction Loop
In message 002701cf1956$59a7e150$0cf7a3f0$@cox.net, dated Fri, 24 Jan 2014, Ed Price edpr...@cox.net writes: Surprisingly, the AC power quality within the stations was very good. The utility no doubt provides the power from the lowest source impedance that it can achieve and protect against short-circuit. But the original question is about audio-frequency magnetic fields. Everyone and his/her dog knows about RF emissions but below 9 kHz is alien country. -- OOO - Own Opinions Only. With best wishes. See www.jmwa.demon.co.uk Nondum ex silvis sumus John Woodgate, J M Woodgate and Associates, Rayleigh, Essex UK - This message is from the IEEE Product Safety Engineering Society emc-pstc discussion list. To post a message to the list, send your e-mail to emc-p...@ieee.org All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at: http://www.ieee-pses.org/emc-pstc.html Attachments are not permitted but the IEEE PSES Online Communities site at http://product-compliance.oc.ieee.org/ can be used for graphics (in well-used formats), large files, etc. Website: http://www.ieee-pses.org/ Instructions: http://www.ieee-pses.org/list.html (including how to unsubscribe) List rules: http://www.ieee-pses.org/listrules.html For help, send mail to the list administrators: Scott Douglas emcp...@radiusnorth.net Mike Cantwell mcantw...@ieee.org For policy questions, send mail to: Jim Bacher: j.bac...@ieee.org David Heald: dhe...@gmail.com
Re: [PSES] Audio Frequency Induction Loop
I should have been clearer. The denial of service I described was not to the transit system’s customers; that is, the trains still operated OK. What did happen was that the station workers’ CRT’s would develop all sorts of weird effects (focus loss, axis rotation, color flipping) so that the station workers couldn’t read the data on their screens (or it was so screwy that they barely could see the screens). A screen would go from “perfect” to “strange” to “difficult to read” to “what the hell!” in the course of maybe 30 seconds as a train slowed to stop at the station. As the train neared stopping, the screens would get back to normal. Then, as the train pulled out, it would repeat. My comment about station AC power quality meant that I was surprised that station equipment saw power about as good as I saw in my EMC lab. I had expected all sorts of power distortions because the station workers were reporting that their monitors were going crazy, and they were certain that it was coming in through the powerlines. BTW, the service outlets and lighting power in those BART stations were derived from BART’s dedicated power feed. The transit stations were independent of the local neighborhood power. The equipment I then had available didn’t let me look at slow time-varying H-fields. Now, using the very good but inexpensive H-field sensors (like the ones used in a smart phone), this part of the spectrum could be readily explored. Of course, since nobody uses CRT monitors anymore, maybe nobody cares. Ed Price WB6WSN Chula Vista, CA USA From: Ed Price [mailto:edpr...@cox.net] Sent: Friday, January 24, 2014 2:48 PM To: EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG Subject: Re: [PSES] Audio Frequency Induction Loop In 1999, I performed a field survey of a number of stations on the San Francisco Bay Area Rapid Transit (BART) system. I measured the RF spectrum, at each station, 30 kHz to 3 MHz H-field and 300 kHz to 12 GHz E-field, over a period of about 8 hours. I also measured the AC power quality during theis period. The worst emissions I encountered were passenger-carried electronics; all other sources, from commutation noise to licensed emitters to nearby vehicles, were not very bothersome. Surprisingly, the AC power quality within the stations was very good. However, the station agents were equipped with CRT computer monitors, and many of these exhibited complete disruption from magnetic fields created by train motion. As Rich reports, the screen disruptions were present as trains decelerated into, and accelerated out of, the stations. Stopped trains caused no disruption, and once the train had essentially cleared the station area, normal CRT operation returned. It was a denial of use that the operators had learned to cope with. The cheap solution was to switch those CRT monitors to that new-fangled LED technology (plasma screens were considered, but too costly). I created a detailed report that I can share with anyone who would request it (about 5 MB in Word). Ed Price WB6WSN Chula Vista, CA USA -Original Message- From: Richard Nute [mailto:ri...@ieee.org] Sent: Friday, January 24, 2014 9:32 AM To: EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG Subject: Re: [PSES] Audio Frequency Induction Loop 750V DC Overhead Catenary Systems... When I lived in the Barcelona area, the local rail system used color TV (crt) monitors to provide the timetable. As a train approached the station, the colors and then the shape of the display would distort, getting worse as the train got closer. Then, when the train was stopped, the display was normal... until the train started moving out of the station. The magnetic field, proportional to current, of the overhead wire would cause the distortion in the display. Since the distortion was proportional to distance the train was from the station, and had no other perturbations, I assumed the current was d.c. The shortest distance from the wire to the monitor was in the order of 5 meters. Rich On 1/24/2014 8:29 AM, John Woodgate wrote: In message mailto:beda313b3e2b304ca6a08001bd61c9c01a257...@ukmb01.mottmac.group.int beda313b3e2b304ca6a08001bd61c9c01a257...@ukmb01.mottmac.group.int, dated Fri, 24 Jan 2014, McCallum, Andy mailto:andy.mccal...@mottmac.com andy.mccal...@mottmac.com writes: Anyone aware of any interference from Trams (750V DC Overhead Catenary Systems, max current 1000A) on AFIL systems (EN 60118-4:2006). From my very basic calculation you need a significant separation distance (in excess of 25m). Any previous studies or examples would be most helpful. I don't have any studies or examples, but I'm heavily involved with that standard; I'm actually editing the next edition today! Of course, the system doesn't pass DC and very low and high frequencies, so it's a question of transients, from about 20 ms down to perhaps 100 μs. If you care
Re: [PSES] Audio Frequency Induction Loop
In message 001501cf1970$c29ca0f0$47d5e2d0$@cox.net, dated Fri, 24 Jan 2014, Ed Price edpr...@cox.net writes: My comment about station AC power quality meant that I was surprised that station equipment saw power about as good as I saw in my EMC lab. I had expected all sorts of power distortions because the station workers were reporting that their monitors were going crazy, and they were certain that it was coming in through the powerlines. It's the direct action of magnetic fields. Rich Nute reported a case here and there is another at an intensively computer-using site in Boeblingen in Germany, next to the railway. -- OOO - Own Opinions Only. With best wishes. See www.jmwa.demon.co.uk Nondum ex silvis sumus John Woodgate, J M Woodgate and Associates, Rayleigh, Essex UK - This message is from the IEEE Product Safety Engineering Society emc-pstc discussion list. To post a message to the list, send your e-mail to emc-p...@ieee.org All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at: http://www.ieee-pses.org/emc-pstc.html Attachments are not permitted but the IEEE PSES Online Communities site at http://product-compliance.oc.ieee.org/ can be used for graphics (in well-used formats), large files, etc. Website: http://www.ieee-pses.org/ Instructions: http://www.ieee-pses.org/list.html (including how to unsubscribe) List rules: http://www.ieee-pses.org/listrules.html For help, send mail to the list administrators: Scott Douglas emcp...@radiusnorth.net Mike Cantwell mcantw...@ieee.org For policy questions, send mail to: Jim Bacher: j.bac...@ieee.org David Heald: dhe...@gmail.com
