[PSES] Russian EAC Life Time and Storage Time References in Manual
The Customs Union EAC mark, which came into effect two days ago, requires that references to life time and storage time be placed in the manual. Does anyone know of any guidance or examples of what is considered to be sufficient? thanks Mike Sherman Product Safety and Compliance Engineer Graco Inc. - This message is from the IEEE Product Safety Engineering Society emc-pstc discussion list. To post a message to the list, send your e-mail to emc-p...@ieee.org All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at: http://www.ieee-pses.org/emc-pstc.html Attachments are not permitted but the IEEE PSES Online Communities site at http://product-compliance.oc.ieee.org/ can be used for graphics (in well-used formats), large files, etc. Website: http://www.ieee-pses.org/ Instructions: http://www.ieee-pses.org/list.html (including how to unsubscribe) List rules: http://www.ieee-pses.org/listrules.html For help, send mail to the list administrators: Scott Douglas sdoug...@ieee.org Mike Cantwell mcantw...@ieee.org For policy questions, send mail to: Jim Bacher: j.bac...@ieee.org David Heald: dhe...@gmail.com
Re: [PSES] Nameplate and DoC requirements Machinery Directive
In message bn3pr0801mb097985bfe1773ece195b9c5285...@bn3pr0801mb0979.namprd08.prod.o utlook.com, dated Tue, 17 Mar 2015, Nyffenegger, Dave dave.nyffeneg...@bhemail.com writes: Annex VII states the technical file shall include ?a copy of the EC declaration of conformity;? Don?t know if this implies a copy of every unique original with signature and/or serial number needs to be kept or only the original that is then signed for each unit or batch or whatever a manufacturer decides to do. I think it can be simplified to 'Save every unique DoC'. If a single DoC covers hundreds or thousands of units produced over some years (so not an MD Doc), just save one. If a serial number must be on the DoC, or each DoC is unique in some other way, then save every one. In any case, we know the technical file must be kept for 10 years as well as the DoC, it seems to me filing as many copies of DoCs as one might have with the technical file (either electronically or hard copy) would logical. Yes, that is the wisest course of action. Electronic storage, of course. You can't be criticized by Market Surveillance for preserving too much information. -- OOO - Own Opinions Only. With best wishes. See www.jmwa.demon.co.uk When I turn my back on the sun, it's to look for a rainbow John Woodgate, J M Woodgate and Associates, Rayleigh, Essex UK - This message is from the IEEE Product Safety Engineering Society emc-pstc discussion list. To post a message to the list, send your e-mail to emc-p...@ieee.org All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at: http://www.ieee-pses.org/emc-pstc.html Attachments are not permitted but the IEEE PSES Online Communities site at http://product-compliance.oc.ieee.org/ can be used for graphics (in well-used formats), large files, etc. Website: http://www.ieee-pses.org/ Instructions: http://www.ieee-pses.org/list.html (including how to unsubscribe) List rules: http://www.ieee-pses.org/listrules.html For help, send mail to the list administrators: Scott Douglas sdoug...@ieee.org Mike Cantwell mcantw...@ieee.org For policy questions, send mail to: Jim Bacher: j.bac...@ieee.org David Heald: dhe...@gmail.com
Re: [PSES] Nameplate and DoC requirements Machinery Directive
In message 20150317.133927.1501...@webmail08.vgs.untd.com, dated Tue, 17 Mar 2015, Brian Gregory brian_greg...@netzero.net writes: I would not use either S/N or model numbers. Some EU Directives require each unit to be positively identifiable, for recall if necessary. I don't see how to do that without both model and serial numbers, although I suppose a long enough serial number would accommodate many different products. But if you do that logically, e.g. the first 10 digits identify the product and the rest the individual unit, that just 'model + serial' in disguise. -- OOO - Own Opinions Only. With best wishes. See www.jmwa.demon.co.uk When I turn my back on the sun, it's to look for a rainbow John Woodgate, J M Woodgate and Associates, Rayleigh, Essex UK - This message is from the IEEE Product Safety Engineering Society emc-pstc discussion list. To post a message to the list, send your e-mail to emc-p...@ieee.org All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at: http://www.ieee-pses.org/emc-pstc.html Attachments are not permitted but the IEEE PSES Online Communities site at http://product-compliance.oc.ieee.org/ can be used for graphics (in well-used formats), large files, etc. Website: http://www.ieee-pses.org/ Instructions: http://www.ieee-pses.org/list.html (including how to unsubscribe) List rules: http://www.ieee-pses.org/listrules.html For help, send mail to the list administrators: Scott Douglas sdoug...@ieee.org Mike Cantwell mcantw...@ieee.org For policy questions, send mail to: Jim Bacher: j.bac...@ieee.org David Heald: dhe...@gmail.com
Re: [PSES] Safety standards versus safety engineering
John Allen's approach and advice is reasonable. Some our more experienced denizens such as Rich Nute and Pete Perkins and have written some articles on safety engineering principles for the PSES newsletter. Ted Eckert did a session on compliance and regulatory sources at a recent ISPCE. Cannot remember which year, but most of the presentations are available online. And Gary Tornquist did a session on component power supply evaluation at a previous ISPCE. Cannot remember whom (all of the MS people look alike to me) did some sessions on basic stuff such as fuse selection, power strips, building code analysis, and probably other fundamental topics. This listserv has had a few threads on knowledge resources. There are other on-line discussions, such as the numerous LinkedIn groups. And the many Bugs Bunny videos available on youtube. Brian From: Adam Dixon [mailto:lanterna.viri...@gmail.com] Sent: Monday, March 16, 2015 5:18 PM To: EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG Subject: Re: [PSES] Safety standards versus safety engineering For the design engineer who wants to learn more about safety regarding both product design (systems using 85-264VAC sources; mostly digital logic but including an Ethernet physical layer interface) and production test, but is on a very tight budget, are there recommended references? Soft and/or hardcopy are fine. I have searched the archives using a variety of terms to locate recommended references but didn't locate any lists. I've read the discussions about lowest cost sources for standards. IEC 60950-1:2013 is 707 Euros from what I see on the Estonian site. The UL version is $493 for starters. Purchasing any number of standards certainly is a moderate to significant investment for the individual. I checked out the HBSE per Rich's post about how it came to be, but don't have $1050 for the two day workshop at this time either. There look to be a handful of texts on Amazon. Electrical Safety Handbook, 4th edition looks like the most appropriate title -- any benefit with something from Amazon or other publishing house/distributor compared to the actual standards? If I've missed pertinent discussions in the archives or if you would consider sharing a recommended reading/standards list, I would appreciate any guidance/feedback. Kind regards, Adam Dixon adam.di...@ieee.org - This message is from the IEEE Product Safety Engineering Society emc-pstc discussion list. To post a message to the list, send your e-mail to emc-p...@ieee.org All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at: http://www.ieee-pses.org/emc-pstc.html Attachments are not permitted but the IEEE PSES Online Communities site at http://product-compliance.oc.ieee.org/ can be used for graphics (in well-used formats), large files, etc. Website: http://www.ieee-pses.org/ Instructions: http://www.ieee-pses.org/list.html (including how to unsubscribe) List rules: http://www.ieee-pses.org/listrules.html For help, send mail to the list administrators: Scott Douglas sdoug...@ieee.org Mike Cantwell mcantw...@ieee.org For policy questions, send mail to: Jim Bacher: j.bac...@ieee.org David Heald: dhe...@gmail.com
Re: [PSES] Safety standards versus safety engineering
Adam I’m not sure that reading and trying to understand the standards themselves in detail is the best first step in understanding the design issues because most standards are written mainly for test and certification organisations, rather than design engineers – and the latter often have a lot of problems in interpreting the requirements in the context of the equipment on which they working. The problems surface for many reasons: - The structure of some standards, which may seem somewhat random – why is this here and that there (etc.)? That has developed over many years, and is reasonably consistent across many IEC/EN standards, but can be confusing to newcomers; - The multiple options for doing “something” with no indication of which would be best (in fact, one of the guiding principles of standards preparation is not to do that, but to give the designer as much freedom as possible to meet the “essential” requirements of that particular section of the standard); - The apparent (and sometimes real) conflicts in requirements between apparently similar standards, and even, occasionally, within the same standard; - The often abysmal level of comprehensibility of many of the sections in some standards where the requirements have grown and been tweaked over the years by various committees – often, one paragraph will contain multiple requirements and cross-references, which you then have to carefully dissect before you can determine what parts do/do not apply to your product. Therefore, I would suggest that you need to start reasonably “simply” / cheaply, and so: - Find out what standards apply to your product (presumably, from what you say, that would include 60950-1 or the new 62368-1 – which is much better written, IMHO, although the scope and structure are somewhat different – which is replacing it), but it does not really matter all that much if all you can get your hands on is an older version of a document (there are “sources”) because the basic requirements haven’t actually changed that much over the last 20-30 yrs (although some of the detailed requirements have, but generally just to clarify previously unclear wording)! - Familiarise yourself with the overall structure of the document (you can get first few pages and the index to the standard from the free synopsis which can be downloaded from the IECEE website in Geneva!) Identify the parts are likely to apply to the product – basically, that’s those for the enclosure, means of connection to the mains supply, and the circuits to which those connect within the unit, PSUs, access to Hazardous Live parts, output connections, and – significantly – the requirements for the components and materials within the enclosure (notably creepage/clearance distances and flammability) Do this by taking a typical product, opening it up and then working out roughly what requirements are liable to apply to what parts. - Delve into those, one-by-one, in the specific context of the overall design and the detailed component requirements - which you can do by some basic searching on the web – but don’t try to go too deep before you begin to understand how all the requirements begin to “fit together” as a whole. Once you have begun to understand the above, sit back and decide what you think you do understand, and what you don’t – and then ask questions here on this forum as there are many people with the relevant knowledge who are very willing to assist. Just like many other learning processes it will take some time, and it’s an ongoing one – that’s why many of us here on this forum are still learning towards the ends of our careers in the industry! J Regards John Allen W.London, UK From: Adam Dixon [mailto:lanterna.viri...@gmail.com] Sent: 17 March 2015 00:18 To: EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG Subject: Re: [PSES] Safety standards versus safety engineering For the design engineer who wants to learn more about safety regarding both product design (systems using 85-264VAC sources; mostly digital logic but including an Ethernet physical layer interface) and production test, but is on a very tight budget, are there recommended references? Soft and/or hardcopy are fine. I have searched the archives using a variety of terms to locate recommended references but didn't locate any lists. I've read the discussions about lowest cost sources for standards. IEC 60950-1:2013 is 707 Euros from what I see on the Estonian site. The UL version is $493 for starters. Purchasing any number of standards certainly is a moderate to significant investment for the individual. I checked out the HBSE per Rich's post about how it came to be, but don't have $1050 for the two day workshop at this time either. There look to be a handful of texts on Amazon. Electrical Safety Handbook, 4th edition looks like the most appropriate title -- any benefit
Re: [PSES] Safety standards versus safety engineering
Hi Adam: Since you are a member of IEEE, you can access all the “Product Safety Newsletters” and “Product Safety Engineering Newsletters” on the PSES web site. Most of these are chock-full of good safety engineering stuff. Also, consider attending the three-day ISPCE Symposium in Chicago, May 18-20. Not only technical sessions, you can rub elbows with colleagues who will teach you much. One of the tracks this year is “Product Safety 101,” intended for those who are new to product safety. http://psessymposium.org/ Best regards, Rich - This message is from the IEEE Product Safety Engineering Society emc-pstc discussion list. To post a message to the list, send your e-mail to emc-p...@ieee.org All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at: http://www.ieee-pses.org/emc-pstc.html Attachments are not permitted but the IEEE PSES Online Communities site at http://product-compliance.oc.ieee.org/ can be used for graphics (in well-used formats), large files, etc. Website: http://www.ieee-pses.org/ Instructions: http://www.ieee-pses.org/list.html (including how to unsubscribe) List rules: http://www.ieee-pses.org/listrules.html For help, send mail to the list administrators: Scott Douglas sdoug...@ieee.org Mike Cantwell mcantw...@ieee.org For policy questions, send mail to: Jim Bacher: j.bac...@ieee.org David Heald: dhe...@gmail.com
Re: [PSES] Safety standards versus safety engineering
A sincere thanks to all who responded to my educational query. @John A. - thanks for the detailed guidance perspective. I'll take a look for the sources while making an attempt at the one-by-one delving that you recommend. I have bookmarked the IECEE site and will take a closer look. @Dan R. - thanks for the ISPCE link and follow-up about the Monday introductory track. It dawned on me after our email exchange that my bride I will be celebrating our 25th wedding anniversary that week, so perhaps 2016 is a better fit. My oldest son is doing IC design in San Diego, so it would make a nice trip in addition to the education and networking opportunities. :-) @ Dave N. - I'm interested in electrical shock hazard mostly for both design and production test. I looked at the Schmersal site and didn't see applicable content at first review. I'll take a closer look and also search for the EU directives. @Rich N. - thanks for the IEEE info. I hadn't culled IEEE resources yet and do see a large newsletter list! @Brian O. - I haven't come across the ISPCE presentations yet -- thanks. I watched too much Buggs Bunny as a young kid (no one is recommending ACME gear are they?), so will look forward to what YouTube has to offer! ;-) Regards, Adam On Tue, Mar 17, 2015 at 1:37 PM, Brian Oconnell oconne...@tamuracorp.com wrote: John Allen's approach and advice is reasonable. Some our more experienced denizens such as Rich Nute and Pete Perkins and have written some articles on safety engineering principles for the PSES newsletter. Ted Eckert did a session on compliance and regulatory sources at a recent ISPCE. Cannot remember which year, but most of the presentations are available online. And Gary Tornquist did a session on component power supply evaluation at a previous ISPCE. Cannot remember whom (all of the MS people look alike to me) did some sessions on basic stuff such as fuse selection, power strips, building code analysis, and probably other fundamental topics. This listserv has had a few threads on knowledge resources. There are other on-line discussions, such as the numerous LinkedIn groups. And the many Bugs Bunny videos available on youtube. Brian From: Adam Dixon [mailto:lanterna.viri...@gmail.com] Sent: Monday, March 16, 2015 5:18 PM To: EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG Subject: Re: [PSES] Safety standards versus safety engineering For the design engineer who wants to learn more about safety regarding both product design (systems using 85-264VAC sources; mostly digital logic but including an Ethernet physical layer interface) and production test, but is on a very tight budget, are there recommended references? Soft and/or hardcopy are fine. I have searched the archives using a variety of terms to locate recommended references but didn't locate any lists. I've read the discussions about lowest cost sources for standards. IEC 60950-1:2013 is 707 Euros from what I see on the Estonian site. The UL version is $493 for starters. Purchasing any number of standards certainly is a moderate to significant investment for the individual. I checked out the HBSE per Rich's post about how it came to be, but don't have $1050 for the two day workshop at this time either. There look to be a handful of texts on Amazon. Electrical Safety Handbook, 4th edition looks like the most appropriate title -- any benefit with something from Amazon or other publishing house/distributor compared to the actual standards? If I've missed pertinent discussions in the archives or if you would consider sharing a recommended reading/standards list, I would appreciate any guidance/feedback. Kind regards, Adam Dixon adam.di...@ieee.org - This message is from the IEEE Product Safety Engineering Society emc-pstc discussion list. To post a message to the list, send your e-mail to emc-p...@ieee.org All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at: http://www.ieee-pses.org/emc-pstc.html Attachments are not permitted but the IEEE PSES Online Communities site at http://product-compliance.oc.ieee.org/ can be used for graphics (in well-used formats), large files, etc. Website: http://www.ieee-pses.org/ Instructions: http://www.ieee-pses.org/list.html (including how to unsubscribe) List rules: http://www.ieee-pses.org/listrules.html For help, send mail to the list administrators: Scott Douglas sdoug...@ieee.org Mike Cantwell mcantw...@ieee.org For policy questions, send mail to: Jim Bacher: j.bac...@ieee.org David Heald: dhe...@gmail.com - This message is from the IEEE Product Safety Engineering Society emc-pstc discussion list. To post a message to the list, send your e-mail to emc-p...@ieee.org All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at: http://www.ieee-pses.org/emc-pstc.html Attachments
Re: [PSES] Nameplate and DoC requirements Machinery Directive
Brian -- I agree with your comments as they apply to one's technical file. I resist adding unnecessarily detailed information to the DoC. Mike Sherman Graco Inc. - Original Message - From: Brian Gregory brian_greg...@netzero.net To: EMC-PSTC EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG Sent: Tuesday, March 17, 2015 2:39:27 PM Subject: Re: [PSES] Nameplate and DoC requirements Machinery Directive Advice from one with mostly US experience, but with an NRTL/NB: Until otherwise prohibited by MD, best practices are: - use of company issued documentation to properly describe the products covered by a DoC. Types, application and ratings need to be crystal clear in the documentation. Use product safety reports from NRTLs as a guide. I would not use either S/N or model numbers. - Be accurate and precise about the scope (the extent) of your organization's ISO 9001 or (other relevant) certifications or accreditations, as far as both the activities and geographical locations covered by the certifications and product use applications are concerned. another Brian -- Original Message -- From: Mike Sherman - Original Message - msherma...@comcast.net Subject: Re: [PSES] Nameplate and DoC requirements Machinery Directive Brian -- I would think a model number might suffice as designation of the machinery. In my way of thinking, there has to be something that ties the nameplate to the DoC; we use the model number, not a functional description---have never run into that interpretation before. Although the Annex describing the contents of the DoC includes a SN, the required markings on the machine in Annex I do *not* require a SN. My approach is that if it's not required to be on the machine and therefore is not on the machine, it doesn't exist and therefore is not required to be on the DoC. I think there's nothing wrong with electronic signatures and generic DoCs. How many of us have seen exactly that printed in owner's manuals? Mike Sherman Graco Inc. - Original Message - From: Brian Kunde brian_ku...@lecotc.com To: EMC-PSTC EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG Sent: Monday, March 16, 2015 12:18:55 PM Subject: [PSES] Nameplate and DoC requirements Machinery Directive I'm getting beat up again in France for non-compliances according to the machinery Directive on our Nameplate and DoC. I know we have discussed these issues in the past but I was wondering if things have changed or become clearer over time. We want to do things right but some items are hard for us to implement and don't want to have to do unless we really have to. Nameplate (label) according to MD 1.7.3 - designation of the machinery. The Test Lab in France wants up to put something like Carbon and Sulfur Determinator on our nameplate which we just do not have room for. Do others struggle with this requirement? What ways have you found to comply with this requirement? Declaration of Conformity according to MD Annex II, Serial Number. The Test Lab insist that the serial number must be on the DoC even though many have explained why this is not required. TUV:SUD has also told us that the serial number does not have to be on the DoC unless it is needed to determine a CE Compliant instrument from a non-CE compliant instrument, but we do not have this in writing. All of our products are CD compliant so the serial number has no purpose. Does anyone have a document that clearly explains when the serial number is and is not required on the DoC? We cannot really use the methods described in the Guide, such as using a Range of serial numbers because we built one at a time per customer order. The Test Lab wants the DoC to have the exact same information as the Nameplate so they say we cannot use Series in the model number or Product Name. Do others use such shortcuts? To do what they want we would have to type up a custom DoC for every instrum! ent we build with a dedicated document number, have it signed, and store copies either paper or electronic file for 10 years. That's crazy. Should I just give in or do I have any ammo in fighting this? Some of the items this Test Lab said was required six months they are now backing down saying things like it would be nice . . . . Thanks for the help. The Other Brian LECO Corporation Notice: This communication may contain confidential information intended for the named recipient(s) only. If you received this by mistake, please destroy it and notify us of the error. Thank you. - This message is from the IEEE Product Safety Engineering Society emc-pstc discussion list. To post a message to the list, send your e-mail to emc-p...@ieee.org All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at: http://www.ieee-pses.org/emc-pstc.html Attachments are not permitted but the IEEE PSES Online Communities site at
Re: [PSES] Nameplate and DoC requirements Machinery Directive
Advice from one with mostly US experience, but with an NRTL/NB: Until otherwise prohibited by MD, best practices are: - use of company issued documentation to properly describe the products covered by a DoC. Types, application and ratings need to be crystal clear in the documentation. Use product safety reports from NRTLs as a guide. I would not use either S/N or model numbers. - Be accurate and precise about the scope (the extent) of your organization's ISO 9001 or (other relevant) certifications or accreditations, as far as both the activities and geographical locations covered by the certifications and product use applications are concerned. another Brian -- Original Message -- From: Mike Sherman - Original Message - msherma...@comcast.net Subject: Re: [PSES] Nameplate and DoC requirements Machinery Directive Brian -- I would think a model number might suffice as designation of the machinery. In my way of thinking, there has to be something that ties the nameplate to the DoC; we use the model number, not a functional description---have never run into that interpretation before. Although the Annex describing the contents of the DoC includes a SN, the required markings on the machine in Annex I do *not* require a SN. My approach is that if it's not required to be on the machine and therefore is not on the machine, it doesn't exist and therefore is not required to be on the DoC. I think there's nothing wrong with electronic signatures and generic DoCs. How many of us have seen exactly that printed in owner's manuals? Mike ShermanGraco Inc. From: Brian Kunde brian_ku...@lecotc.com To: EMC-PSTC EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG Sent: Monday, March 16, 2015 12:18:55 PM Subject: [PSES] Nameplate and DoC requirements Machinery Directive I'm getting beat up again in France for non-compliances according to the machinery Directive on our Nameplate and DoC. I know we have discussed these issues in the past but I was wondering if things have changed or become clearer over time. We want to do things right but some items are hard for us to implement and don't want to have to do unless we really have to. Nameplate (label) according to MD 1.7.3 - designation of the machinery. The Test Lab in France wants up to put something like Carbon and Sulfur Determinator on our nameplate which we just do not have room for. Do others struggle with this requirement? What ways have you found to comply with this requirement? Declaration of Conformity according to MD Annex II, Serial Number. The Test Lab insist that the serial number must be on the DoC even though many have explained why this is not required. TUV:SUD has also told us that the serial number does not have to be on the DoC unless it is needed to determine a CE Compliant instrument from a non-CE compliant instrument, but we do not have this in writing. All of our products are CD compliant so the serial number has no purpose. Does anyone have a document that clearly explains when the serial number is and is not required on the DoC? We cannot really use the methods described in the Guide, such as using a Range of serial numbers because we built one at a time per customer order. The Test Lab wants the DoC to have the exact same information as the Nameplate so they say we cannot use Series in the model number or Product Name. Do others use such shortcuts? To do what they want we would have to type up a custom DoC for every instrum! ent we build with a dedicated document number, have it signed, and store copies either paper or electronic file for 10 years. That's crazy. Should I just give in or do I have any ammo in fighting this? Some of the items this Test Lab said was required six months they are now backing down saying things like it would be nice . . . . Thanks for the help. The Other Brian LECO Corporation Notice: This communication may contain confidential information intended for the named recipient(s) only. If you received this by mistake, please destroy it and notify us of the error. Thank you. - This message is from the IEEE Product Safety Engineering Society emc-pstc discussion list. To post a message to the list, send your e-mail to emc-p...@ieee.org All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at: http://www.ieee-pses.org/emc-pstc.html Attachments are not permitted but the IEEE PSES Online Communities site at http://product-compliance.oc.ieee.org/ can be used for graphics (in well-used formats), large files, etc. Website: http://www.ieee-pses.org/ Instructions: http://www.ieee-pses.org/list.html (including how to unsubscribe) List rules: http://www.ieee-pses.org/listrules.html For help, send mail to the list administrators: Scott Douglas sdoug...@ieee.org Mike Cantwell mcantw...@ieee.org For policy questions, send mail to: Jim Bacher:
Re: [PSES] Nameplate and DoC requirements Machinery Directive
Did not that ISO stuff was required. What is basis for requirement to indicate accreditations/certifications on the machinery directive D of C? Another member of the esteemed Brian Club. Brian From: Brian Gregory [mailto:brian_greg...@netzero.net] Sent: Tuesday, March 17, 2015 12:39 PM To: EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG Subject: Re: [PSES] Nameplate and DoC requirements Machinery Directive Advice from one with mostly US experience, but with an NRTL/NB: Until otherwise prohibited by MD, best practices are: - use of company issued documentation to properly describe the products covered by a DoC. Types, application and ratings need to be crystal clear in the documentation. Use product safety reports from NRTLs as a guide. I would not use either S/N or model numbers. - Be accurate and precise about the scope (the extent) of your organization's ISO 9001 or (other relevant) certifications or accreditations, as far as both the activities and geographical locations covered by the certifications and product use applications are concerned. another Brian -- Original Message -- From: Mike Sherman - Original Message - msherma...@comcast.net Subject: Re: [PSES] Nameplate and DoC requirements Machinery Directive Brian -- I would think a model number might suffice as designation of the machinery. In my way of thinking, there has to be something that ties the nameplate to the DoC; we use the model number, not a functional description---have never run into that interpretation before. Although the Annex describing the contents of the DoC includes a SN, the required markings on the machine in Annex I do *not* require a SN. My approach is that if it's not required to be on the machine and therefore is not on the machine, it doesn't exist and therefore is not required to be on the DoC. I think there's nothing wrong with electronic signatures and generic DoCs. How many of us have seen exactly that printed in owner's manuals? Mike Sherman Graco Inc. From: Brian Kunde brian_ku...@lecotc.com To: EMC-PSTC EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG Sent: Monday, March 16, 2015 12:18:55 PM Subject: [PSES] Nameplate and DoC requirements Machinery Directive I'm getting beat up again in France for non-compliances according to the machinery Directive on our Nameplate and DoC. I know we have discussed these issues in the past but I was wondering if things have changed or become clearer over time. We want to do things right but some items are hard for us to implement and don't want to have to do unless we really have to. Nameplate (label) according to MD 1.7.3 - designation of the machinery. The Test Lab in France wants up to put something like Carbon and Sulfur Determinator on our nameplate which we just do not have room for. Do others struggle with this requirement? What ways have you found to comply with this requirement? Declaration of Conformity according to MD Annex II, Serial Number. The Test Lab insist that the serial number must be on the DoC even though many have explained why this is not required. TUV:SUD has also told us that the serial number does not have to be on the DoC unless it is needed to determine a CE Compliant instrument from a non-CE compliant instrument, but we do not have this in writing. All of our products are CD compliant so the serial number has no purpose. Does anyone have a document that clearly explains when the serial number is and is not required on the DoC? We cannot really use the methods described in the Guide, such as using a Range of serial numbers because we built one at a time per customer order. The Test Lab wants the DoC to have the exact same information as the Nameplate so they say we cannot use Series in the model number or Product Name. Do others use such shortcuts? To do what they want we would have to type up a custom DoC for every instrum! ent we build with a dedicated document number, have it signed, and store copies either paper or electronic file for 10 years. That's crazy. Should I just give in or do I have any ammo in fighting this? Some of the items this Test Lab said was required six months they are now backing down saying things like it would be nice . . . . Thanks for the help. The Other Brian - This message is from the IEEE Product Safety Engineering Society emc-pstc discussion list. To post a message to the list, send your e-mail to emc-p...@ieee.org All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at: http://www.ieee-pses.org/emc-pstc.html Attachments are not permitted but the IEEE PSES Online Communities site at http://product-compliance.oc.ieee.org/ can be used for graphics (in well-used formats), large files, etc. Website: http://www.ieee-pses.org/ Instructions: http://www.ieee-pses.org/list.html (including how to unsubscribe) List rules:
[PSES] Wanted: Screend Room (UK)
Hi all, We are in the market for a second hand screened room in the UK. If anyone knows of any being sold please could they get in touch? Many thanks, James Pawson Leading EMC Engineer EchoStar - This message is from the IEEE Product Safety Engineering Society emc-pstc discussion list. To post a message to the list, send your e-mail to emc-p...@ieee.org All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at: http://www.ieee-pses.org/emc-pstc.html Attachments are not permitted but the IEEE PSES Online Communities site at http://product-compliance.oc.ieee.org/ can be used for graphics (in well-used formats), large files, etc. Website: http://www.ieee-pses.org/ Instructions: http://www.ieee-pses.org/list.html (including how to unsubscribe) List rules: http://www.ieee-pses.org/listrules.html For help, send mail to the list administrators: Scott Douglas sdoug...@ieee.org Mike Cantwell mcantw...@ieee.org For policy questions, send mail to: Jim Bacher: j.bac...@ieee.org David Heald: dhe...@gmail.com
Re: [PSES] Harmonised Standards for EMC Directive 2014/30/EU and Low Voltage Directive 2014/35/EU
This is true, however, we cannot wait until the twelfth hour and then find out about these things. High Res color photos and printers and the processes to integrate this into production is not a couple hour job. Especially for those who also have to comply with the Machinery Directive where every product built has a custom DoC. We have to plan for future possibilities. Thanks, The Other Brain From: Charlie Blackham [mailto:char...@sulisconsultants.com] Sent: Monday, March 16, 2015 4:10 PM To: Kunde, Brian; EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG Subject: RE: [PSES] Harmonised Standards for EMC Directive 2014/30/EU and Low Voltage Directive 2014/35/EU Brian I’d wait until the guidance comes out as no one will be signing DoCs until 20 April 2016 Regards Charlie From: Kunde, Brian [mailto:brian_ku...@lecotc.com] Sent: 16 March 2015 19:51 To: EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORGmailto:EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG Subject: Re: [PSES] Harmonised Standards for EMC Directive 2014/30/EU and Low Voltage Directive 2014/35/EU I’m sorry to be bringing this topic back, but looking at the DoC requirements for the new EMC Directive, what does this mean? “4. Object of the declaration (identification of apparatus allowing traceability; it may include a colour image of sufficient clarity where necessary for the identification of the apparatus):” Does this mean we have to include a color picture of the product on the DoC? What would be an acceptable alternative? Thanks, The Other Brian From: Ron Pickard (RPQ) [mailto:rpick...@rpqconsulting.com] Sent: Tuesday, March 03, 2015 1:32 PM To: EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORGmailto:EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG Subject: Re: [PSES] Harmonised Standards for EMC Directive 2014/30/EU and Low Voltage Directive 2014/35/EU As an outsider to the EU process, all I can do is hope it all gets completed on time. But, I am skeptical that all the member states and ETSI can get that all done by the 2016 dates. I think the EU put the cart before the horse on this one, metaphorically speaking. I look forward to you reply. Best regards, Ron Pickard Sent from my smartphone -- Original message-- From: John Woodgate Date: Tue, Mar 3, 2015 11:19 AM To: EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORGmailto:EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG; Subject:Re: [PSES] Harmonised Standards for EMC Directive 2014/30/EU and Low Voltage Directive 2014/35/EU In message 000f424e.66f2bca822817...@rpqconsulting.commailto:%3c000f424e.66f2bca822817...@rpqconsulting.com, dated Tue, 3 Mar 2015, Ron Pickard (RPQ) writes:For your question, I guess we'll have to wait and see if the member states and ETSI meet the 2016 dates in those directives.I meant a bit more than that. What chance is there of all the work being done in time? 1 picochance?-- OOO - Own Opinions Only. With best wishes. See www.jmwa.demon.co.ukhttp://www.jmwa.demon.co.ukWhen I turn my back on the sun, it's to look for a rainbowJohn Woodgate, J M Woodgate and Associates, Rayleigh, Essex UK-This message is from the IEEE Product Safety Engineering Society emc-pstc discussion list. To post a message to the list, send your e-mail to All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at:http://www.ieee-pses.org/emc-pstc.htmlAttachments are not permitted but the IEEE PSES Online Communities site at http://product-compliance.oc.ieee.org/ can be used for graphics (in well-used formats), large files, etc.Website: http://www.ieee-pses.org/Instructions: http://www.ieee-pses.org/list.html (including how to unsubscribe)List rules: http://www.ieee-pses.org/listrules.htmlFor help, send mail to the list administrators:Scott Douglas Mike Cantwell For policy questions, send mail to:Jim Bacher: David Heald: - This message is from the IEEE Product Safety Engineering Society emc-pstc discussion list. To post a message to the list, send your e-mail to emc-p...@ieee.orgmailto:emc-p...@ieee.org All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at: http://www.ieee-pses.org/emc-pstc.html Attachments are not permitted but the IEEE PSES Online Communities site at http://product-compliance.oc.ieee.org/ can be used for graphics (in well-used formats), large files, etc. Website: http://www.ieee-pses.org/ Instructions: http://www.ieee-pses.org/list.html (including how to unsubscribe)http://www.ieee-pses.org/list.html List rules: http://www.ieee-pses.org/listrules.html For help, send mail to the list administrators: Scott Douglas sdoug...@ieee.orgmailto:sdoug...@ieee.org Mike Cantwell mcantw...@ieee.orgmailto:mcantw...@ieee.org For policy questions, send mail to: Jim Bacher j.bac...@ieee.orgmailto:j.bac...@ieee.org David Heald dhe...@gmail.commailto:dhe...@gmail.com LECO Corporation Notice: This communication may contain confidential information intended for the named recipient(s)
Re: [PSES] Harmonised Standards for EMC Directive 2014/30/EU and Low Voltage Directive 2014/35/EU
John, Thanks for pointing that out. I didn't notice the MAY. I'll have to make a point to do that in the future. However, with my luck, I'm sure some country will translate this into a Must Have requirement in their law. As you may know from other treads I've been participating in that we are currently looking at the current and future requirements of the DoC and Nameplate so I have to consider all possibilities. I appreciate everyone's input. It has been most helpful. Thanks for your input. The Other Brian -Original Message- From: John Woodgate [mailto:j...@jmwa.demon.co.uk] Sent: Monday, March 16, 2015 4:57 PM To: EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG Subject: Re: [PSES] Harmonised Standards for EMC Directive 2014/30/EU and Low Voltage Directive 2014/35/EU In message 64D32EE8B9CBDD44963ACB076A5F6ABB026D385D@Mailbox-Tech.lecotech.local, dated Mon, 16 Mar 2015, Kunde, Brian brian_ku...@lecotc.com writes: “4. Object of the declaration (identification of apparatus allowing traceability; it may include a colour image of sufficient clarity where necessary for the identification of the apparatus):” Does this mean we have to include a color picture of the product on the DoC? No, it quite clearly says 'may', which gives permission. What would be an acceptable alternative? For most products, the other data the Directive requires is sufficient, but for some products it might be inconvenient or impossible to add all the marking, so a picture would make things clear. -- OOO - Own Opinions Only. With best wishes. See www.jmwa.demon.co.uk When I turn my back on the sun, it's to look for a rainbow John Woodgate, J M Woodgate and Associates, Rayleigh, Essex UK - This message is from the IEEE Product Safety Engineering Society emc-pstc discussion list. To post a message to the list, send your e-mail to emc-p...@ieee.org All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at: http://www.ieee-pses.org/emc-pstc.html Attachments are not permitted but the IEEE PSES Online Communities site at http://product-compliance.oc.ieee.org/ can be used for graphics (in well-used formats), large files, etc. Website: http://www.ieee-pses.org/ Instructions: http://www.ieee-pses.org/list.html (including how to unsubscribe) List rules: http://www.ieee-pses.org/listrules.html For help, send mail to the list administrators: Scott Douglas sdoug...@ieee.org Mike Cantwell mcantw...@ieee.org For policy questions, send mail to: Jim Bacher: j.bac...@ieee.org David Heald: dhe...@gmail.com LECO Corporation Notice: This communication may contain confidential information intended for the named recipient(s) only. If you received this by mistake, please destroy it and notify us of the error. Thank you. - This message is from the IEEE Product Safety Engineering Society emc-pstc discussion list. To post a message to the list, send your e-mail to emc-p...@ieee.org All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at: http://www.ieee-pses.org/emc-pstc.html Attachments are not permitted but the IEEE PSES Online Communities site at http://product-compliance.oc.ieee.org/ can be used for graphics (in well-used formats), large files, etc. Website: http://www.ieee-pses.org/ Instructions: http://www.ieee-pses.org/list.html (including how to unsubscribe) List rules: http://www.ieee-pses.org/listrules.html For help, send mail to the list administrators: Scott Douglas sdoug...@ieee.org Mike Cantwell mcantw...@ieee.org For policy questions, send mail to: Jim Bacher: j.bac...@ieee.org David Heald: dhe...@gmail.com
