Re: [PSES] Friday night conundrum

[John Woodgate]

In message <002a01d0d6c4$b0b96ae0$122c40a0$@cs.com>, dated Fri, 14 Aug 
2015, Pete Perkins  writes:


  It appears that the fun is just beginning.  Do you, John, want 
to

leave all the fun up to the young guys?


Heaven forfend. I acknowledge your points, but the original enquiry was 
about CE marking of credit cards. Posted to this list, we should 
consider EMC and safety. If people want to introduce other OT 
considerations, that's OK as long as they are noted as OT, not the main 
thread.

--
OOO - Own Opinions Only. With best wishes. See www.jmwa.demon.co.uk
When I turn my back on the sun, it's to look for a rainbow
John Woodgate, J M Woodgate and Associates, Rayleigh, Essex UK

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Re: [PSES] Friday night conundrum

[John Allen]

A few weeks ago, there was an interesting presentation on this very subject
at the TUV Sud Customer Day at Brooklands - so maybe someone from TUV Sud
might like to comment? :-D

 

John Allen

W.London, UK

 

-Original Message-
From: Pete Perkins [mailto:0061f3f32d0c-dmarc-requ...@ieee.org] 
Sent: 14 August 2015 20:09
To: EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG
Subject: Re: [PSES] Friday night conundrum

 

John,

 

Thinking of all of this only in EMI terms seems way too
limiting.

There are examples of all kinds of electromechanical devices which interact
readily with the body which could harbor unsuspecting hazards.  There are
already artificial limbs that are computer driven (even from brain waves or
other nerve signals}.  A cochlear implant doesn't have to be solely driven
by audio. How about an augmented reality set of glasses (and the computing
horsepower that drives it, all wearable).  What about a driven exoskeleton
that provides movement to someone severely handicapped or adds super power
for lifting or jumping.  Wearables are just coming into their own and we do
not yet see the full range of possibilities or the issues that they will
raise.  Some will be regulated medical devices (by whatever mechanism draws
them into that category) others will be commercial products and only covered
by the usual sets of requirements we normally deal with. 

 

It appears that the fun is just beginning.  Do you, John,
want to leave all the fun up to the young guys?  

 

:>) br, Pete

Peter E Perkins, PE

Principal Product Safety Engineer

PO Box 23427

Tigard, ORe  97281-3427

503/452-1201 fone/fax

  p.perk...@ieee.org

 

-Original Message-

From: John Woodgate [ 
mailto:j...@jmwa.demon.co.uk]

Sent: Friday, August 14, 2015 11:24 AM

To:   EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG

Subject: Re: [PSES] Friday night conundrum

 

In message < 
001401d0d6bd$33ff5980$9bfe0c80$@cs.com>, dated Fri, 14 Aug 2015, Pete
Perkins < 
0061f3f32d0c-dmarc-requ...@ieee.org> writes:

 

>   Is the 'brite line' of separation because of the power supply (I 

>think not) or at some other defined 'interface'.

 

The question ought to be whether the product is a *conceivable* EMI threat
or needs regulatory control of its immunity. But note 'ought'. 

Some decisions seem to be made for undisclosed reasons.

--

OOO - Own Opinions Only. With best wishes. See
 www.jmwa.demon.co.uk When I turn my back on
the sun, it's to look for a rainbow John Woodgate, J M Woodgate and
Associates, Rayleigh, Essex UK

 

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Re: [PSES] Friday night conundrum

[Pete Perkins]

John,

Thinking of all of this only in EMI terms seems way too limiting.
There are examples of all kinds of electromechanical devices which interact
readily with the body which could harbor unsuspecting hazards.  There are
already artificial limbs that are computer driven (even from brain waves or
other nerve signals}.  A cochlear implant doesn't have to be solely driven
by audio. How about an augmented reality set of glasses (and the computing
horsepower that drives it, all wearable).  What about a driven exoskeleton
that provides movement to someone severely handicapped or adds super power
for lifting or jumping.  Wearables are just coming into their own and we do
not yet see the full range of possibilities or the issues that they will
raise.  Some will be regulated medical devices (by whatever mechanism draws
them into that category) others will be commercial products and only covered
by the usual sets of requirements we normally deal with. 

It appears that the fun is just beginning.  Do you, John, want to
leave all the fun up to the young guys?  

:>) br, Pete
 
Peter E Perkins, PE
Principal Product Safety Engineer
PO Box 23427
Tigard, ORe  97281-3427
 
503/452-1201 fone/fax
p.perk...@ieee.org
 

-Original Message-
From: John Woodgate [mailto:j...@jmwa.demon.co.uk] 
Sent: Friday, August 14, 2015 11:24 AM
To: EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG
Subject: Re: [PSES] Friday night conundrum

In message <001401d0d6bd$33ff5980$9bfe0c80$@cs.com>, dated Fri, 14 Aug 2015,
Pete Perkins <0061f3f32d0c-dmarc-requ...@ieee.org> writes:

>   Is the 'brite line' of separation because of the power supply (I 
>think not) or at some other defined 'interface'.

The question ought to be whether the product is a *conceivable* EMI threat
or needs regulatory control of its immunity. But note 'ought'. 
Some decisions seem to be made for undisclosed reasons.
--
OOO - Own Opinions Only. With best wishes. See www.jmwa.demon.co.uk When I
turn my back on the sun, it's to look for a rainbow John Woodgate, J M
Woodgate and Associates, Rayleigh, Essex UK

-

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Re: [PSES] Friday night conundrum

[Nyffenegger, Dave]

Without having re-read through all the relevant directives I'd think a 
non-powered device like a card chip or RFID tag would be exempt from any EMC 
Directives.  RoHS, REACH, WEEE etc might apply and the CE mark is now required 
for RoHS.

-Dave

-Original Message-
From: John Woodgate [mailto:j...@jmwa.demon.co.uk] 
Sent: Friday, August 14, 2015 2:24 PM
To: EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG
Subject: Re: [PSES] Friday night conundrum

In message <001401d0d6bd$33ff5980$9bfe0c80$@cs.com>, dated Fri, 14 Aug 2015, 
Pete Perkins <0061f3f32d0c-dmarc-requ...@ieee.org> writes:

>   Is the 'brite line' of separation because of the power supply (I 
>think not) or at some other defined 'interface'.

The question ought to be whether the product is a *conceivable* EMI threat or 
needs regulatory control of its immunity. But note 'ought'. 
Some decisions seem to be made for undisclosed reasons.
--
OOO - Own Opinions Only. With best wishes. See www.jmwa.demon.co.uk When I turn 
my back on the sun, it's to look for a rainbow John Woodgate, J M Woodgate and 
Associates, Rayleigh, Essex UK

-

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Re: [PSES] EU EMC Harmonized Test Standards for High Intensity Discharge Lamp Ballasts

[John Woodgate]

In message 
, 
dated Fri, 14 Aug 2015, Grace Lin  writes:


Are EN 55015 and EN 61547 standards the appropriate standards for HID 
lamp ballasts per EU?


Yes, they are.
--
OOO - Own Opinions Only. With best wishes. See www.jmwa.demon.co.uk
When I turn my back on the sun, it's to look for a rainbow
John Woodgate, J M Woodgate and Associates, Rayleigh, Essex UK

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Re: [PSES] Friday night conundrum

[John Woodgate]

In message <001401d0d6bd$33ff5980$9bfe0c80$@cs.com>, dated Fri, 14 Aug 
2015, Pete Perkins <0061f3f32d0c-dmarc-requ...@ieee.org> writes:



  Is the 'brite line' of separation because of the power supply (I
think not) or at some other defined 'interface'.


The question ought to be whether the product is a *conceivable* EMI 
threat or needs regulatory control of its immunity. But note 'ought'. 
Some decisions seem to be made for undisclosed reasons.

--
OOO - Own Opinions Only. With best wishes. See www.jmwa.demon.co.uk
When I turn my back on the sun, it's to look for a rainbow
John Woodgate, J M Woodgate and Associates, Rayleigh, Essex UK

-

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Re: [PSES] Friday night conundrum

[John Woodgate]

In message <0387f3cf1dd8426389d13d04328ae...@sehste15d1be4.hs20.net>, 
dated Fri, 14 Aug 2015, Charlie Blackham  
writes:


RFID and other tags are apparatus under the R&TTE directive, but the 
initial placing on the market, and requirement for CE marking, is in 
the tag manufacturer and not on the person issuing the card.


There is an R&TTE "interpretation" covering this on the Europa website.


I've based my comments of the EMCD and its Guide. I see evidence that 
ETSI doesn't support 'de minimis'.

--
OOO - Own Opinions Only. With best wishes. See www.jmwa.demon.co.uk
When I turn my back on the sun, it's to look for a rainbow
John Woodgate, J M Woodgate and Associates, Rayleigh, Essex UK

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[PSES] EU EMC Harmonized Test Standards for High Intensity Discharge Lamp Ballasts

[Grace Lin]

Dear Members,

Are EN 55015 and EN 61547 standards the appropriate standards for HID lamp
ballasts per EU?

Please advise.  Thank you very much.

Best regards,
Grace Lin

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Re: [PSES] Friday night conundrum

[Pete Perkins]

John,

A good Friday discussion...  

Altho this seems like a simplistic electronic equipment, the same
question needs to be raised with regard to wearable electronics.  

The sophistication of these electronic systems is quite high and the
complexity will continue to grow.  Wot hazards will be present and how to
protect from them are the base issues.  

Is the 'brite line' of separation because of the power supply (I
think not) or at some other defined 'interface'.  

Who else will chime in?  

:>) br, Pete
 
Peter E Perkins, PE
Principal Product Safety Engineer
PO Box 23427
Tigard, ORe  97281-3427
 
503/452-1201 fone/fax
p.perk...@ieee.org
 
_ _ _ _ _

Should a Credit Card carry the CE mark

Chip and pin along with NFC

Discuss?

John Pearson, Senior Director, Corporate Product Compliance Polycom (UK)
Ltd. |Singleton Court Business Centre Wonastow Road Ind. Est., Monmouth,
NP255JA, United Kingdom | T: +44 1753 723165 | M: +44  7968 064105 

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Re: [PSES] Friday night conundrum

[Paasche, Dieter]

Could that principle apply to USB key's too? I see some of them have CE  mark 
others not. 

Dieter Paasche
Advanced Product Developer, Electrical
CHRISTIE
809 Wellington Street North
Kitchener, ON N2G 4Y7
Phone: 519-744-8005 ext.7211
www.christiedigital.com

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-Original Message-
From: John Woodgate [mailto:j...@jmwa.demon.co.uk] 
Sent: Friday, August 14, 2015 12:19 PM
To: EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG
Subject: Re: [PSES] Friday night conundrum

In message
<04cab9802ba27a409548dd47de1da7efd342a72...@slomailprd01.polycom.com>,
dated Fri, 14 Aug 2015, "Pearson, John" 
writes:

>Should a Credit Card carry the CE mark
>
>Chip and pin along with NFC

Like a digital watch, it's regarded as 'EMC benign', so no EMC test and no CE 
mark.
--
OOO - Own Opinions Only. With best wishes. See www.jmwa.demon.co.uk When I turn 
my back on the sun, it's to look for a rainbow John Woodgate, J M Woodgate and 
Associates, Rayleigh, Essex UK

-

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Re: [PSES] Friday night conundrum

[Charlie Blackham]

John

RFID and other tags are apparatus under the R&TTE directive, but the initial 
placing on the market, and requirement for CE marking, is in the tag 
manufacturer and not on the person issuing the card.

There is an R&TTE "interpretation" covering this on the Europa website.

Regards
Charlie

Sent from my mobile

From: Pearson, John
Sent: ‎14/‎08/‎2015 16:59
To: EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG
Subject: [PSES] Friday night conundrum

Should a Credit Card carry the CE mark

Chip and pin along with NFC

Discuss?

John Pearson, Senior Director, Corporate Product Compliance
Polycom (UK) Ltd. |Singleton Court Business Centre Wonastow Road Ind. Est., 
Monmouth, NP255JA, United Kingdom | T: +44 1753 723165 | M: +44  7968 064105

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Re: [PSES] Friday night conundrum

[John Woodgate]

In message 
<04cab9802ba27a409548dd47de1da7efd342a72...@slomailprd01.polycom.com>, 
dated Fri, 14 Aug 2015, "Pearson, John"  
writes:



Should a Credit Card carry the CE mark

Chip and pin along with NFC


Like a digital watch, it's regarded as 'EMC benign', so no EMC test and 
no CE mark.

--
OOO - Own Opinions Only. With best wishes. See www.jmwa.demon.co.uk
When I turn my back on the sun, it's to look for a rainbow
John Woodgate, J M Woodgate and Associates, Rayleigh, Essex UK

-

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[PSES] Friday night conundrum

[Pearson, John]

Should a Credit Card carry the CE mark

Chip and pin along with NFC

Discuss?

John Pearson, Senior Director, Corporate Product Compliance
Polycom (UK) Ltd. |Singleton Court Business Centre Wonastow Road Ind. Est., 
Monmouth, NP255JA, United Kingdom | T: +44 1753 723165 | M: +44  7968 064105 

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