Re: [PSES] Archive posting

[Nyffenegger, Dave]

See the bottom of the email.
-Dave

From: Peter Hays [mailto:06cee064502d-dmarc-requ...@ieee.org]
Sent: Thursday, March 03, 2016 11:36 PM
To: EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG
Subject: [PSES] Archive posting

Hello,

can someone tell me where do we keep the past archive postings please?

Thanks
Peter
-


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>

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This message is from the IEEE Product Safety Engineering Society emc-pstc 
discussion list. To post a message to the list, send your e-mail to 


All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at:
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Attachments are not permitted but the IEEE PSES Online Communities site at 
http://product-compliance.oc.ieee.org/ can be used for graphics (in well-used 
formats), large files, etc.

Website:  http://www.ieee-pses.org/
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[PSES] Archive posting

[Peter Hays]

Hello,

can someone tell me where do we keep the past archive postings please?

Thanks
Peter

-

This message is from the IEEE Product Safety Engineering Society emc-pstc 
discussion list. To post a message to the list, send your e-mail to 


All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at:
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Attachments are not permitted but the IEEE PSES Online Communities site at 
http://product-compliance.oc.ieee.org/ can be used for graphics (in well-used 
formats), large files, etc.

Website:  http://www.ieee-pses.org/
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Re: [PSES] Insulation testing

[Richard Nute]

 

 

Hi Ralph:

 

 

Some say 0th fault to mean it is expected to fail, therefore you fault it, 
before applying a single-fault.

 

Never heard of this process.  And never used this process.  And have never seen 
it in a safety standard.

 

If bonding impedance test passes, then the circuit is not functional earthed, 
it is bonded to earth…

 

Not in my book.  The bonding circuit has constructional requirements in 
addition to impedance.  However, constructional requirements are often 
over-looked.  

 

 

Best regards,

Rich

 

 

 


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This message is from the IEEE Product Safety Engineering Society emc-pstc 
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Attachments are not permitted but the IEEE PSES Online Communities site at 
http://product-compliance.oc.ieee.org/ can be used for graphics (in well-used 
formats), large files, etc.

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Re: [PSES] Standards for Photo Voltaics Inverter

[Brian O'Connell]

Assumption that this is EMC question. Insufficient information on your inverter 
enviroment. For industrial in U.S. could need to look at part 18, otherwise 
look at the normative references in IEC61000-6-4. For office/residential 
micro-grid, just the mundane CISPR22/24 and 47CFR15 stuff.

If this is grid-interactive, you have a boatload of EMC interface standards 
that could be scoped. Por Estados Unido de America typically looking at 
IEEE1547.x, C62.41.2, C62.45, C90.2, and some others that cannot remember.

'Alternate' energy systems continue to have messy regulatory issues, so you 
need to talk to an NRTL or National Body that has specific PV experience. Or 
talk to my dog and cat - they have a lifetime of experience with laying in the 
sun.

Brian

From: Brian Gregory [mailto:brian_greg...@netzero.net] 
Sent: Thursday, March 03, 2016 1:24 PM
To: EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG
Subject: Re: [PSES] Standards for Photo Voltaics Inverter

 
Grace,
Safety standards are:
 
IEC 62109-1 and UL 62109-1 is now approved for N.America.
 
Brian Gregory
720-450-4933


-- Original Message --
From: Grace Lin 
To: EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG
Subject: [PSES] Standards for Photo Voltaics Inverter
Date: Thu, 3 Mar 2016 06:30:51 -0800
Dear Members,
 
Could you please advise what are the appropriate standards for photo voltaics 
inverters (360Vdc in, 110Vac or 230Vac out)?  Does 61000-4-13 apply.
 
Thank you very much and I look forward to your help.
 
Best regards,
Grace Lin 

-

This message is from the IEEE Product Safety Engineering Society emc-pstc 
discussion list. To post a message to the list, send your e-mail to 


All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at:
http://www.ieee-pses.org/emc-pstc.html

Attachments are not permitted but the IEEE PSES Online Communities site at 
http://product-compliance.oc.ieee.org/ can be used for graphics (in well-used 
formats), large files, etc.

Website:  http://www.ieee-pses.org/
Instructions:  http://www.ieee-pses.org/list.html (including how to unsubscribe)
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For policy questions, send mail to:
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Re: [PSES] Insulation testing

[Kunde, Brian]

Keep this in mind. The US NEC allows power cords to be made from 18AWG wire 
even though they can be plugged into a 20 amp circuit.

Protective bonding Test at 40 amps for 4 minutes will melt the insulation of 
18AWG wire.

Even internal 18AWG hookup wire used as the Protective bonding conductor 
(Green/Yellow insulation) will melt during the 40 amp bond test at 4 minutes.

So we switched to 16AWG power cords (minimum size) and all internal Protective 
bonding conductors are at a minimum 14AWG. Just to be on the safe side.

Canada has some rule about the Protective bonding conductor cannot be smaller 
than the current carrying conductors in the power cord. And since standard PC 
type power cords (NEMA plug to IEC connector) can come in 18AWG, 16AWG, or 
14AWG, we use 14AWG internal protective bonding conductors to meet Canada's 
requirements no matter what size power cord is used with our equipment.

The Other Brian


-Original Message-
From: Rodney Davis [mailto:rodney.da...@mitel.com]
Sent: Thursday, March 03, 2016 3:36 PM
To: EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG
Subject: Re: [PSES] Insulation testing

Yes in Canada and USA the line current is deemed to be 20 amps therefore 2 
times = 40 Amps.

in the old days the branch was considered 15A. This changed (really guessing 
here so please no arguments) 8 years ago.

Rodney Davis - Canada

From: Brian O'Connell 
Sent: Thursday, March 3, 2016 3:00 PM
To: EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG
Subject: Re: [PSES] Insulation testing

Correct -> CSA No. 0.4 specifies 40A test level.

Brian


From: Mike Sherman - Original Message - [mailto:msherma...@comcast.net]
Sent: Thursday, March 03, 2016 11:52 AM
To: EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG
Subject: Re: [PSES] Insulation testing

I've always thought the Canada requirement was 40 amps for 2 minutes.
Mike Sherman
Graco Inc.

Sent from Xfinity Connect Mobile App

-- Original Message --

From: Richard Nute
To: EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG
Sent: March 3, 2016 at 1:37 PM
Subject: Re: [PSES] Insulation testing


Hi Ralph:


It seems that the standards are treating functional ground connections (those 
that do not pass a bonding impedance test) as a 0th fault, not a single fault.  
 For the bonding impedance test (fault current), what would be the test 
current?  Would it be twice the rating of the mains over-current protection?  
(e.g.  2 x 15A breaker rating)

I don't know what a "0th" fault is.

A functional earth must be double- or reinforced-insulated from the mains (or 
any other voltage exceeding ELV).  This is because (if only basic insulation 
between the mains and the functional earth conductor) a fault of the basic 
insulation may allow the full current of the mains to flow in the functional 
earth conductors, which may not be able to carry this current.  If the 
functional earth conductor should open, mains voltage will appear on the 
remaining functional earth circuits and may cause a severe electric shock.

If the fault of basic insulation results in a zero-impedance to earth, the 
current is set by the source impedance and lasts until the overcurrent device 
operates.

Overcurrent devices take time to operate.  For most overcurrent devices, the 
time to operate depends on the magnitude of the fault current.  Most 
overcurrent devices are rated either 1 or 2 minutes at twice rated current.  
So, the worst case is 2 minutes at 2x rated current.

In the USA, on 15-amp and 20-amp circuits, the fault current is taken as 25 
amps for 1 minute.  In Canada, the fault current is taken as 30 amps for 2 
minutes.  (Most constructions will pass both tests.)


Best regards,
Rich

-

This message is from the IEEE Product Safety Engineering Society emc-pstc 
discussion list. To post a message to the list, send your e-mail to 


All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at:
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Attachments are not permitted but the IEEE PSES Online Communities site at 
http://product-compliance.oc.ieee.org/ can be used for graphics (in well-used 
formats), large files, etc.

Website:  http://www.ieee-pses.org/
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For help, send mail to the list administrators:
Scott Douglas 
Mike Cantwell 

For policy questions, send mail to:
Jim Bacher:  
David Heald: 

NOTE: This e-mail (including any attachments) is for the sole use of the 
intended recipient(s) and may contain information that is confidential and/or 
protected by legal privilege. Any unauthorized review, use, copy, disclosure or 
distribution of this e-mail is strictly prohibited. If you are not the intended 
recipient, please notify Mitel immediately and 

Re: [PSES] Standards for Photo Voltaics Inverter

[Brian O'Connell]

Just remembered that OP was asking about immunity, not emissions, so change 
IEC61000-6-4 to -2.

Brian

-Original Message-
From: Brian O'Connell 
Sent: Thursday, March 03, 2016 1:59 PM
To: EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG
Subject: RE: [PSES] Standards for Photo Voltaics Inverter

Assumption that this is EMC question. Insufficient information on your inverter 
enviroment. For industrial in U.S. could need to look at part 18, otherwise 
look at the normative references in IEC61000-6-4. For office/residential 
micro-grid, just the mundane CISPR22/24 and 47CFR15 stuff.

If this is grid-interactive, you have a boatload of EMC interface standards 
that could be scoped. Por Estados Unido de America typically looking at 
IEEE1547.x, C62.41.2, C62.45, C90.2, and some others that cannot remember.

'Alternate' energy systems continue to have messy regulatory issues, so you 
need to talk to an NRTL or National Body that has specific PV experience. Or 
talk to my dog and cat - they have a lifetime of experience with laying in the 
sun.

Brian

From: Brian Gregory [mailto:brian_greg...@netzero.net] 
Sent: Thursday, March 03, 2016 1:24 PM
To: EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG
Subject: Re: [PSES] Standards for Photo Voltaics Inverter

 
Grace,
Safety standards are:
 
IEC 62109-1 and UL 62109-1 is now approved for N.America.
 
Brian Gregory
720-450-4933


-- Original Message --
From: Grace Lin 
To: EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG
Subject: [PSES] Standards for Photo Voltaics Inverter
Date: Thu, 3 Mar 2016 06:30:51 -0800
Dear Members,
 
Could you please advise what are the appropriate standards for photo voltaics 
inverters (360Vdc in, 110Vac or 230Vac out)?  Does 61000-4-13 apply.
 
Thank you very much and I look forward to your help.
 
Best regards,
Grace Lin 

-

This message is from the IEEE Product Safety Engineering Society emc-pstc 
discussion list. To post a message to the list, send your e-mail to 


All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at:
http://www.ieee-pses.org/emc-pstc.html

Attachments are not permitted but the IEEE PSES Online Communities site at 
http://product-compliance.oc.ieee.org/ can be used for graphics (in well-used 
formats), large files, etc.

Website:  http://www.ieee-pses.org/
Instructions:  http://www.ieee-pses.org/list.html (including how to unsubscribe)
List rules: http://www.ieee-pses.org/listrules.html

For help, send mail to the list administrators:
Scott Douglas 
Mike Cantwell 

For policy questions, send mail to:
Jim Bacher:  
David Heald: 

Re: [PSES] Standards for Photo Voltaics Inverter

[Brian Gregory]

 Grace,Safety standards are: IEC 62109-1 and UL 62109-1 is now approved for 
N.America. Brian Gregory
720-450-4933

-- Original Message --
From: Grace Lin 
To: EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG
Subject: [PSES] Standards for Photo Voltaics Inverter
Date: Thu, 3 Mar 2016 06:30:51 -0800


Dear Members, Could you please advise what are the appropriate standards for 
photo voltaics inverters (360Vdc in, 110Vac or 230Vac out)?  Does 61000-4-13 
apply. Thank you very much and I look forward to your help. Best regards,Grace 
Lin -
 
This message is from the IEEE Product Safety Engineering Society emc-pstc 
discussion list. To post a message to the list, send your e-mail to 

All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at: 
http://www.ieee-pses.org/emc-pstc.html
Attachments are not permitted but the IEEE PSES Online Communities site at 
http://product-compliance.oc.ieee.org/ can be used for graphics (in well-used 
formats), large files, etc.
Website: http://www.ieee-pses.org/
 Instructions: http://www.ieee-pses.org/list.html (including how to unsubscribe)
 List rules: http://www.ieee-pses.org/listrules.html
For help, send mail to the list administrators:
 Scott Douglas 
 Mike Cantwell 
For policy questions, send mail to:
 Jim Bacher 
 David Heald 

-

This message is from the IEEE Product Safety Engineering Society emc-pstc 
discussion list. To post a message to the list, send your e-mail to 


All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at:
http://www.ieee-pses.org/emc-pstc.html

Attachments are not permitted but the IEEE PSES Online Communities site at 
http://product-compliance.oc.ieee.org/ can be used for graphics (in well-used 
formats), large files, etc.

Website:  http://www.ieee-pses.org/
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List rules: http://www.ieee-pses.org/listrules.html

For help, send mail to the list administrators:
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Mike Cantwell 

For policy questions, send mail to:
Jim Bacher:  
David Heald: 

Re: [PSES] Insulation testing

[Rodney Davis]

Yes in Canada and USA the line current is deemed to be 20 amps therefore 2 
times = 40 Amps.

in the old days the branch was considered 15A. This changed (really guessing 
here so please no arguments) 8 years ago.

Rodney Davis - Canada

From: Brian O'Connell 
Sent: Thursday, March 3, 2016 3:00 PM
To: EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG
Subject: Re: [PSES] Insulation testing

Correct –> CSA No. 0.4 specifies 40A test level.

Brian


From: Mike Sherman - Original Message - [mailto:msherma...@comcast.net]
Sent: Thursday, March 03, 2016 11:52 AM
To: EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG
Subject: Re: [PSES] Insulation testing

I've always thought the Canada requirement was 40 amps for 2 minutes.
Mike Sherman
Graco Inc.

Sent from Xfinity Connect Mobile App

-- Original Message --

From: Richard Nute
To: EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG
Sent: March 3, 2016 at 1:37 PM
Subject: Re: [PSES] Insulation testing


Hi Ralph:


It seems that the standards are treating functional ground connections (those 
that do not pass a bonding impedance test) as a 0th fault, not a single fault.  
 For the bonding impedance test (fault current), what would be the test 
current?  Would it be twice the rating of the mains over-current protection?  
(e.g.  2 x 15A breaker rating)

I don’t know what a “0th” fault is.

A functional earth must be double- or reinforced-insulated from the mains (or 
any other voltage exceeding ELV).  This is because (if only basic insulation 
between the mains and the functional earth conductor) a fault of the basic 
insulation may allow the full current of the mains to flow in the functional 
earth conductors, which may not be able to carry this current.  If the 
functional earth conductor should open, mains voltage will appear on the 
remaining functional earth circuits and may cause a severe electric shock.

If the fault of basic insulation results in a zero-impedance to earth, the 
current is set by the source impedance and lasts until the overcurrent device 
operates.

Overcurrent devices take time to operate.  For most overcurrent devices, the 
time to operate depends on the magnitude of the fault current.  Most 
overcurrent devices are rated either 1 or 2 minutes at twice rated current.  
So, the worst case is 2 minutes at 2x rated current.

In the USA, on 15-amp and 20-amp circuits, the fault current is taken as 25 
amps for 1 minute.  In Canada, the fault current is taken as 30 amps for 2 
minutes.  (Most constructions will pass both tests.)


Best regards,
Rich

-

This message is from the IEEE Product Safety Engineering Society emc-pstc 
discussion list. To post a message to the list, send your e-mail to 


All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at:
http://www.ieee-pses.org/emc-pstc.html

Attachments are not permitted but the IEEE PSES Online Communities site at 
http://product-compliance.oc.ieee.org/ can be used for graphics (in well-used 
formats), large files, etc.

Website:  http://www.ieee-pses.org/
Instructions:  http://www.ieee-pses.org/list.html (including how to unsubscribe)
List rules: http://www.ieee-pses.org/listrules.html

For help, send mail to the list administrators:
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NOTE: This e-mail (including any attachments) is for the sole use of the 
intended recipient(s) and may contain information that is confidential and/or 
protected by legal privilege. Any unauthorized review, use, copy, disclosure or 
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recipient, please notify Mitel immediately and destroy all copies of this 
e-mail. Mitel does not accept any liability for breach of security, error or 
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-

This message is from the IEEE Product Safety Engineering Society emc-pstc 
discussion list. To post a message to the list, send your e-mail to 


All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at:
http://www.ieee-pses.org/emc-pstc.html

Attachments are not permitted but the IEEE PSES Online Communities site at 
http://product-compliance.oc.ieee.org/ can be used for graphics (in well-used 
formats), large files, etc.

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For help, send mail to the list administrators:
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Re: [PSES] Insulation testing

[John_e_allen]

Brian

That's correct, 30 A is the IEC test in most STDs IIRC. OTOH, most ground 
connections that clearly  pass the 30A test will pass the 40A test (which is 2X 
the rating of most 125/250V final c/b's).

John Allen
W.London, UK



Sent from my Xperia™ tablet

 Brian O'Connell wrote 

>Correct –> CSA No. 0.4 specifies 40A test level.
>
>Brian
>
>
>From: Mike Sherman - Original Message - 
>[mailto:msherma...@comcast.net] 
>Sent: Thursday, March 03, 2016 11:52 AM
>To: EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG
>Subject: Re: [PSES] Insulation testing
>
>I've always thought the Canada requirement was 40 amps for 2 minutes. 
>Mike Sherman
>Graco Inc. 
>
>Sent from Xfinity Connect Mobile App
>
>-- Original Message --
>
>From: Richard Nute
>To: EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG
>Sent: March 3, 2016 at 1:37 PM
>Subject: Re: [PSES] Insulation testing
> 
> 
>Hi Ralph:
> 
> 
>It seems that the standards are treating functional ground connections (those 
>that do not pass a bonding impedance test) as a 0th fault, not a single fault. 
>  For the bonding impedance test (fault current), what would be the test 
>current?  Would it be twice the rating of the mains over-current protection?  
>(e.g.  2 x 15A breaker rating)
> 
>I don’t know what a “0th” fault is.  
> 
>A functional earth must be double- or reinforced-insulated from the mains (or 
>any other voltage exceeding ELV).  This is because (if only basic insulation 
>between the mains and the functional earth conductor) a fault of the basic 
>insulation may allow the full current of the mains to flow in the functional 
>earth conductors, which may not be able to carry this current.  If the 
>functional earth conductor should open, mains voltage will appear on the 
>remaining functional earth circuits and may cause a severe electric shock. 
> 
>If the fault of basic insulation results in a zero-impedance to earth, the 
>current is set by the source impedance and lasts until the overcurrent device 
>operates.  
> 
>Overcurrent devices take time to operate.  For most overcurrent devices, the 
>time to operate depends on the magnitude of the fault current.  Most 
>overcurrent devices are rated either 1 or 2 minutes at twice rated current.  
>So, the worst case is 2 minutes at 2x rated current.  
> 
>In the USA, on 15-amp and 20-amp circuits, the fault current is taken as 25 
>amps for 1 minute.  In Canada, the fault current is taken as 30 amps for 2 
>minutes.  (Most constructions will pass both tests.)
> 
> 
>Best regards,
>Rich
>
>-
>
>This message is from the IEEE Product Safety Engineering Society emc-pstc 
>discussion list. To post a message to the list, send your e-mail to 
>
>
>All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at:
>http://www.ieee-pses.org/emc-pstc.html
>
>Attachments are not permitted but the IEEE PSES Online Communities site at 
>http://product-compliance.oc.ieee.org/ can be used for graphics (in well-used 
>formats), large files, etc.
>
>Website:  http://www.ieee-pses.org/
>Instructions:  http://www.ieee-pses.org/list.html (including how to 
>unsubscribe)
>List rules: http://www.ieee-pses.org/listrules.html
>
>For help, send mail to the list administrators:
>Scott Douglas 
>Mike Cantwell 
>
>For policy questions, send mail to:
>Jim Bacher:  
>David Heald: 


-

This message is from the IEEE Product Safety Engineering Society emc-pstc 
discussion list. To post a message to the list, send your e-mail to 


All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at:
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Attachments are not permitted but the IEEE PSES Online Communities site at 
http://product-compliance.oc.ieee.org/ can be used for graphics (in well-used 
formats), large files, etc.

Website:  http://www.ieee-pses.org/
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List rules: http://www.ieee-pses.org/listrules.html

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Re: [PSES] Insulation testing

[Binayak Marahatta]

Mike,

Canadian requirement mentioned as follows for the bonding impedence test:

Yes, twice the rating of the Fuse is the current requirement for equipment 
with permanent connection to the supply.

0-30A  for 2 minutes

31-60 A for 4 minutes

61-100 for 6 minutes

101-200A for 8 minutes

201A and over 10 minutes maximum

Note: Voltage drop should not go over 4V while doing this test

Thank you.

Best regards,

Binayak Marahatta
Product Compliance Engineer

KEB AMERICA, INC.
5100 Valley Industrial Blvd. South
USA - Shakopee, MN 55379
United States 
www.kebamerica.com
Email: 
binayak.maraha...@kebamerica.com
Phone: 
Direct line+1 952 224 1458 
Main Phone:  952-224-1400 
Linkedin:
https://www.linkedin.com/company/keb-america-inc
Google+:
www.google.com/+KEBAmericaInc

-
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Controllers, Servo systems, Frequency generators, Communication, EMC 
Products,  Motor,most economical  low and high torque brakes, Dynamic or 
static breaking, Fail-safe Brake, Combistop (Spring Applied brakes,Power 
off, fail safe  & High Torque Brake), Combiperm (Permanent magnet  Brake 
or Clutch, Power-off Brake), Combinorm (Power-on Brakes,Brake and /or 
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Technology, Material Technology, Automotive,Magnetic Technology etc.

Note: KEB has production sites, marketing companies and representations in 
more than 20+ countries. 
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From:   Mike Sherman - Original Message - 
To: EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG, 
Date:   03/03/2016 01:52 PM
Subject:Re: [PSES] Insulation testing



I've always thought the Canada requirement was 40 amps for 2 minutes. 
Mike Sherman
Graco Inc. 

Sent from Xfinity Connect Mobile App

-- Original Message --

From: Richard Nute
To: EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG
Sent: March 3, 2016 at 1:37 PM
Subject: Re: [PSES] Insulation testing
 
 
Hi Ralph:
 
 
It seems that the standards are treating functional ground connections 
(those that do not pass a bonding impedance test) as a 0th fault, not a 
single fault.   For the bonding impedance test (fault current), what would 
be the test current?  Would it be twice the rating of the mains 
over-current protection?  (e.g.  2 x 15A breaker rating)
 
I don’t know what a “0th” fault is. 
 
A functional earth must be double- or reinforced-insulated from the mains 
(or any other voltage exceeding ELV).  This is because (if only basic 
insulation between the mains and the functional earth conductor) a fault 
of the basic insulation may allow the full current of the mains to flow in 
the functional earth conductors, which may not be able to carry this 
current.  If the functional earth conductor should open, mains voltage 
will appear on the remaining functional earth circuits and may cause a 
severe electric shock. 
 
If the fault of basic insulation results in a zero-impedance to earth, the 
current is set by the source impedance and lasts until the overcurrent 
device operates. 
 
Overcurrent devices take time to operate.  For most overcurrent devices, 
the time to operate depends on the magnitude of the fault current.  Most 
overcurrent devices are rated either 1 or 2 minutes at twice rated 
current.  So, the worst case is 2 minutes at 2x rated current. 
 
In the USA, on 15-amp and 20-amp circuits, the fault current is taken as 
25 amps for 1 minute.  In Canada, the fault current is taken as 30 amps 
for 2 minutes.  (Most constructions will pass both tests.)
 
 
Best regards,
Rich
 
 
 
 
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Re: [PSES] Insulation testing

[McDiarmid, Ralph]

Some say 0th fault to mean it is expected to fail, therefore you fault it, 
before applying a single-fault.  Not the best terminology perhaps.

If bonding impedance test passes, then the circuit is not functional 
earthed, it is bonded to earth (to the equipment grounding conductor),  In 
that scenario, only basic insulation would be needed between the ELV 
circuit and hazard voltage circuit.  Yes?


Ralph McDiarmid
Compliance Engineering
Residential/Commercial
Solar Business
Schneider Electric
D  +1 (604) 422 2622 x62622

3700 Gilmore Way
Burnaby
BC
Canada






From:
"Richard Nute" 
To:
, , 
Date:
03/03/2016 11:28 AM
Subject:
RE: [PSES] Insulation testing



 
 
Hi Ralph:
 
 
It seems that the standards are treating functional ground connections 
(those that do not pass a bonding impedance test) as a 0th fault, not a 
single fault.   For the bonding impedance test (fault current), what would 
be the test current?  Would it be twice the rating of the mains 
over-current protection?  (e.g.  2 x 15A breaker rating)
 
I don’t know what a “0th” fault is.  
 
A functional earth must be double- or reinforced-insulated from the mains 
(or any other voltage exceeding ELV).  This is because (if only basic 
insulation between the mains and the functional earth conductor) a fault 
of the basic insulation may allow the full current of the mains to flow in 
the functional earth conductors, which may not be able to carry this 
current.  If the functional earth conductor should open, mains voltage 
will appear on the remaining functional earth circuits and may cause a 
severe electric shock. 
 
If the fault of basic insulation results in a zero-impedance to earth, the 
current is set by the source impedance and lasts until the overcurrent 
device operates.  
 
Overcurrent devices take time to operate.  For most overcurrent devices, 
the time to operate depends on the magnitude of the fault current.  Most 
overcurrent devices are rated either 1 or 2 minutes at twice rated 
current.  So, the worst case is 2 minutes at 2x rated current.  
 
In the USA, on 15-amp and 20-amp circuits, the fault current is taken as 
25 amps for 1 minute.  In Canada, the fault current is taken as 30 amps 
for 2 minutes.  (Most constructions will pass both tests.)
 
 
Best regards,
Rich
 
 
 
 

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Re: [PSES] Insulation testing

[Brian O'Connell]

Correct –> CSA No. 0.4 specifies 40A test level.

Brian


From: Mike Sherman - Original Message - [mailto:msherma...@comcast.net] 
Sent: Thursday, March 03, 2016 11:52 AM
To: EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG
Subject: Re: [PSES] Insulation testing

I've always thought the Canada requirement was 40 amps for 2 minutes. 
Mike Sherman
Graco Inc. 

Sent from Xfinity Connect Mobile App

-- Original Message --

From: Richard Nute
To: EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG
Sent: March 3, 2016 at 1:37 PM
Subject: Re: [PSES] Insulation testing
 
 
Hi Ralph:
 
 
It seems that the standards are treating functional ground connections (those 
that do not pass a bonding impedance test) as a 0th fault, not a single fault.  
 For the bonding impedance test (fault current), what would be the test 
current?  Would it be twice the rating of the mains over-current protection?  
(e.g.  2 x 15A breaker rating)
 
I don’t know what a “0th” fault is.  
 
A functional earth must be double- or reinforced-insulated from the mains (or 
any other voltage exceeding ELV).  This is because (if only basic insulation 
between the mains and the functional earth conductor) a fault of the basic 
insulation may allow the full current of the mains to flow in the functional 
earth conductors, which may not be able to carry this current.  If the 
functional earth conductor should open, mains voltage will appear on the 
remaining functional earth circuits and may cause a severe electric shock. 
 
If the fault of basic insulation results in a zero-impedance to earth, the 
current is set by the source impedance and lasts until the overcurrent device 
operates.  
 
Overcurrent devices take time to operate.  For most overcurrent devices, the 
time to operate depends on the magnitude of the fault current.  Most 
overcurrent devices are rated either 1 or 2 minutes at twice rated current.  
So, the worst case is 2 minutes at 2x rated current.  
 
In the USA, on 15-amp and 20-amp circuits, the fault current is taken as 25 
amps for 1 minute.  In Canada, the fault current is taken as 30 amps for 2 
minutes.  (Most constructions will pass both tests.)
 
 
Best regards,
Rich

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Re: [PSES] Insulation testing

[Mike Sherman ----- Original Message -----]

I've always thought the Canada requirement was 40 amps for 2 minutes. Mike ShermanGraco Inc. Sent from Xfinity Connect Mobile App-- Original Message --From: Richard NuteTo: EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORGSent: March 3, 2016 at 1:37 PMSubject: Re: [PSES] Insulation testing  Hi Ralph:  It seems that the standards are treating functional ground connections (those that do not pass a bonding impedance test) as a 0th fault, not a single fault.   For the bonding impedance test (fault current), what would be the test current?  Would it be twice the rating of the mains over-current protection?  (e.g.  2 x 15A breaker rating) I don’t know what a “0th” fault is.   A functional earth must be double- or reinforced-insulated from the mains (or any other voltage exceeding ELV).  This is because (if only basic insulation between the mains and the functional earth conductor) a fault of the basic insulation may allow the full current of the mains to flow in the functional earth conductors, which may not be able to carry this current.  If the functional earth conductor should open, mains voltage will appear on the remaining functional earth circuits and may cause a severe electric shock.  If the fault of basic insulation results in a zero-impedance to earth, the current is set by the source impedance and lasts until the overcurrent device operates.   Overcurrent devices take time to operate.  For most overcurrent devices, the time to operate depends on the magnitude of the fault current.  Most overcurrent devices are rated either 1 or 2 minutes at twice rated current.  So, the worst case is 2 minutes at 2x rated current.   In the USA, on 15-amp and 20-amp circuits, the fault current is taken as 25 amps for 1 minute.  In Canada, the fault current is taken as 30 amps for 2 minutes.  (Most constructions will pass both tests.)  Best regards,Rich
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Re: [PSES] Insulation testing

[Richard Nute]

 

 

Hi Ralph:

 

 

It seems that the standards are treating functional ground connections (those 
that do not pass a bonding impedance test) as a 0th fault, not a single fault.  
 For the bonding impedance test (fault current), what would be the test 
current?  Would it be twice the rating of the mains over-current protection?  
(e.g.  2 x 15A breaker rating)

 

I don’t know what a “0th” fault is.  

 

A functional earth must be double- or reinforced-insulated from the mains (or 
any other voltage exceeding ELV).  This is because (if only basic insulation 
between the mains and the functional earth conductor) a fault of the basic 
insulation may allow the full current of the mains to flow in the functional 
earth conductors, which may not be able to carry this current.  If the 
functional earth conductor should open, mains voltage will appear on the 
remaining functional earth circuits and may cause a severe electric shock. 

 

If the fault of basic insulation results in a zero-impedance to earth, the 
current is set by the source impedance and lasts until the overcurrent device 
operates.  

 

Overcurrent devices take time to operate.  For most overcurrent devices, the 
time to operate depends on the magnitude of the fault current.  Most 
overcurrent devices are rated either 1 or 2 minutes at twice rated current.  
So, the worst case is 2 minutes at 2x rated current.  

 

In the USA, on 15-amp and 20-amp circuits, the fault current is taken as 25 
amps for 1 minute.  In Canada, the fault current is taken as 30 amps for 2 
minutes.  (Most constructions will pass both tests.)

 

 

Best regards,

Rich

 

 

 

 


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Re: [PSES] Insulation testing

[McDiarmid, Ralph]

resending (1st one bounced)



From:
Ralph McDiarmid/Canada/Schneider
To:
EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG, 
Date:
02/25/2016 08:51 AM
Subject:
Re: [PSES] Insulation testing


It seems that the standards are treating functional ground connections 
(those that do not pass a bonding impedance test) as a 0th fault, not a 
single fault.   For the bonding impedance test (fault current), what would 
be the test current?  Would it be twice the rating of the mains 
over-current protection?  (e.g.  2 x 15A breaker rating)

Ralph McDiarmid
Compliance Engineering
Residential/Commercial
Solar Business
Schneider Electric


3700 Gilmore Way
Burnaby
BC
Canada





From:
Ted Eckert 
To:
EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG, 
Date:
02/25/2016 08:42 AM
Subject:
Re: [PSES] Insulation testing



Hello John,
 
One common interpretation is that you use the test voltage for 
double/reinforced insulation when testing between mains and user 
accessible circuits even when the user accessible circuits are referenced 
to an earth grounded chassis.
 
Here is the rationale. Any given user accessible circuit may be referenced 
to the chassis ground, but the connection to that chassis ground may still 
be a very small conductor. Let’s say you have a circuit where the 
connection to chassis ground is through a 5 mil (0.127 mm) trace. If there 
is a fault that creates a short between line voltage and that circuit, the 
small ground trace may open circuit before the fuse or circuit breaker 
trips. In that case, the user circuit would lose its ground connection and 
then would become energized to line voltage. 
 
Many years ago, I asked a VDE engineer if the test voltage for basic 
insulation could be used when user accessible circuits were referenced to 
chassis ground. That engineer indicated that he would accept the lower 
voltage only if I could demonstrate that all of the ground paths in the 
user accessible circuits could handle the potential fault currents. As 
this was impractical, testing was still done at the voltage for reinforced 
insulation.
 
If your user accessible circuits are ground referenced, you are typically 
allowed to run a single electric strength test at the voltage for 
double/reinforced insulation. Since the user circuits are ground 
referenced, the voltage applied between line/neutral and ground is also 
applied from line/neutral to user circuits. This applies a higher voltage 
than required across the basic insulation, but you have to do that anyway 
since the user circuits are referenced to earth ground. 
 
Ted Eckert
Compliance Engineer
Microsoft Corporation
ted.eck...@microsoft.com
 
The opinions expressed are my own and do not necessarily reflect those of 
my employer.
 
From: Harrington, John [mailto:john.harring...@keithley.com] 
Sent: Thursday, February 25, 2016 7:43 AM
To: EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG
Subject: [PSES] Insulation testing
 
Gentlemen,
 
How do you demonstrate the dielectric strength between mains and user 
accessible circuits when the accessible circuits are referenced to 
chassis?
 
If you apply the test voltage for reinforced insulation to the mains 
circuits and it breaks down to chassis because there is (as required) only 
basic insulation between them one of two things happens
 
1.   With the protective conductor attached to chassis current flows 
to ground and the HiPot tester goes beep in a disagreeable way.
 
2.   Without the protective conductor attached the voltage gets on the 
accessible circuits because there is no or little insulation between them 
and chassis.
 
Your thoughts are very much appreciated.
 

John Harrington
 
E/ john.harring...@keithley.com
T/ 440.498.2727 

 
 
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Re: [PSES] Standards for Photo Voltaics Inverter

[Doug Powell]

  Grace,Are you ref erring to ‎EMC or Safety standards or both? Which countries?Thanks. Doug Douglas E Powelldoug...@gmail.com ‎https://www.linkedin.com/in/dougp01  From: Grace LinSent: Thursday, March 3, 2016 7:30 AMTo: EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORGReply To: Grace LinSubject: [PSES] Standards for Photo Voltaics InverterDear Members,Could you please advise what are the appropriate standards for photo voltaics inverters (360Vdc in, 110Vac or 230Vac out)?  Does 61000-4-13 apply.Thank you very much and I look forward to your help.Best regards,Grace Lin 
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Re: [PSES] Source for Quality Video Cables

[Elliott Martinson]

Do people really fall for all that unnecessary nonsense, for what is a 100% 
DIGITAL signal? Their words crack me up: "...minimizes distortion caused by the 
grain boundaries that exist within any metal conductor, nearly eliminating 
harshness and greatly increasing clarity..." " ...it causes much less of the 
out-of-focus effect" “...colorless” sonic presentation..." "...unexpected 
detail and dynamic contrast."

And yet another messed up part, demonstrating ignorance of SI: "All signal 
conductors controlled for digital-audio direction in AudioQuest HDMI cables, 
and care is even taken to run the conductors used in the Audio Return Channel 
in the opposite direction to ensure the best performance for that application. 
Arrows are clearly marked on the connectors to ensure superior sound quality."
Do they not realize that on a transmission line, the wave propagates in the 
same direction on both the signal AND return conductor? Do they really think 
the receiving end somehow "knows" what to transmit on the return line before 
the signal even gets there? Plus (from a quick Wikipedia browsing) the audio 
signal has a sample rate of 32kHz up to a max of 192 kHz. So transmission line 
effects don't even really matter (they do on the video, however, where rates 
are 25-340MHz/680MHz depending on if single or dual-link).

Elliott


-Original Message-
From: Ted Eckert [mailto:ted.eck...@microsoft.com]
Sent: Wednesday, March 02, 2016 10:34 PM
To: EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG
Subject: Re: [PSES] Source for Quality Video Cables

The cable vendors are now hyping the presence of oxygen. Now you can read about 
the "benefits" of air-foamed polyethylene. It's interesting to see what else 
cable vendors find for their ad copy.
 http://www.audioquest.com/hdmi/diamond
Amazon currently sells this HDMI cable for the low price of $1500.

Ted Eckert
The opinions expressed are my own and do not necessarily reflect those of my 
employer.

-Original Message-
From: Cortland Richmond [mailto:k...@earthlink.net]
Sent: Wednesday, March 2, 2016 7:12 PM
To: EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG
Subject: Re: [PSES] Source for Quality Video Cables

On 3/2/2016 8:02 PM, Brent DeWitt wrote:
> I haven't looked at the SI characteristics, but the standard clearly 
> doesn't address EMC concerns and the performance of the cables in 
> radiated emission shows it.  YMMV
Hi Brent,

I hope none of the vendors start hyping oxygen free cable. (grin)

Cortland

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[PSES] Standards for Photo Voltaics Inverter

[Grace Lin]

Dear Members,

Could you please advise what are the appropriate standards for photo
voltaics inverters (360Vdc in, 110Vac or 230Vac out)?  Does 61000-4-13
apply.

Thank you very much and I look forward to your help.

Best regards,
Grace Lin

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Re: [PSES] Source for Quality Video Cables

[Dan Roman]

I'd love to see their physics explanation behind their claim of 
"directionality".  Does that mean I would get inferior performance using the 
ARC feature of HDMI?  Monster Cable taken to the extreme, what did PT Barnum 
say?

__
Dan Roman, N.C.E.
Senior Member
IEEE Product Safety Engineering Society
mailto:dan.ro...@ieee.org


 
 

-Original Message-
From: Ted Eckert [mailto:ted.eck...@microsoft.com] 
Sent: Wednesday, March 02, 2016 11:34 PM
To: EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG
Subject: Re: [PSES] Source for Quality Video Cables

The cable vendors are now hyping the presence of oxygen. Now you can read about 
the "benefits" of air-foamed polyethylene. It's interesting to see what else 
cable vendors find for their ad copy.
 http://www.audioquest.com/hdmi/diamond
Amazon currently sells this HDMI cable for the low price of $1500.

Ted Eckert
The opinions expressed are my own and do not necessarily reflect those of my 
employer.

-Original Message-
From: Cortland Richmond [mailto:k...@earthlink.net]
Sent: Wednesday, March 2, 2016 7:12 PM
To: EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG
Subject: Re: [PSES] Source for Quality Video Cables

On 3/2/2016 8:02 PM, Brent DeWitt wrote:
> I haven't looked at the SI characteristics, but the standard clearly 
> doesn't address EMC concerns and the performance of the cables in 
> radiated emission shows it.  YMMV
Hi Brent,

I hope none of the vendors start hyping oxygen free cable. (grin)

Cortland

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