date:20170705

Re: [PSES] Calculating Modulated Power Output. [General Use]

2017-07-05 Thread Ralph McDiarmid

Working the problem backwards can be a useful check;  keeping track of the 
units helps too.

Ralph McDiarmid
Product Compliance
Engineering
Solar Business
Schneider Electric
    


From: Patrick [mailto:conwa...@gmail.com] 
Sent: Wednesday, July 05, 2017 1:02 PM
To: EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG
Subject: Re: [PSES] Calculating Modulated Power Output. [General Use]

 Of course!  But I'm never that lucky !  :)

On Jul 5, 2017 13:27, "John Woodgate"  wrote:
If they do agree, there are an even number of mistakes (counting 0 as even), of 
course.
 
With best wishes DESIGN IT IN! OOO – Own Opinions Only
http://www.jmwa.demon.co.uk/ J M Woodgate and Associates Rayleigh England
 
Sylvae in aeternum manent.
 
From: Patrick [mailto:mailto:conwa...@gmail.com] 
Sent: 05 July 2017 19:45
To: mailto:EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG
Subject: Re: [PSES] Calculating Modulated Power Output. [General Use]
 
Hi Andy - 
 
The calculation can be done either way, using dBW or Watts.  Either method will 
produce the same result.  Actually, I will often perform that calculation in 
both dBW and in Watts, then compare the results.  I use this to check my 
calculations.  If the two methods do not agree, then I've made a mistake, at 
least one, somewhere.
 
Good luck!
 
-Patrick
 
On Thu, Jun 29, 2017 at 7:33 AM, Price, Andrew (Leonardo, UK) 
 wrote:
Hi all.

I hope one of the RF engineers can help with this.

When calculating ERP you use the Tx power either in dBW or W and the antenna 
gain in dBi.
So when you have pulse modulation,  example 9.3GHz, 38.5dBW (7676.89W) ERP at a 
duty cycle of 13%, do you calculate the modulated power level by using the ERP 
dBW or the actual ERP Watts?

Andy




         Andrew Price
             Land & Naval Defence Electronics Division
             Prinicpal Environmental Engineer (EMC)

             Leonardo MW Ltd
             Sigma House, Christopher Martin Rd, Basildon SS14 3EL, UK
             Tel  EMC LAB : tel:+44%201268%20883308
             Mobile: tel:+44%207507%20854888
             
mailto:andrew.p.pr...@leonardocompany.com
             http://leonardocomapany.com
HELICOPTERS / AERONAUTICS / ELECTRONICS, DEFENCE AND SECURITY SYSTEMS / SPACE

* Please consider the environment before printing this email.




Leonardo MW Ltd
Registered Office: Sigma House, Christopher Martin Road, Basildon, Essex SS14 
3EL
A company registered in England & Wales.  Company no. 02426132

This email and any attachments are confidential to the intended
recipient and may also be privileged. If you are not the intended
recipient please delete it from your system and notify the sender.
You should not copy it or use it for any purpose nor disclose or
distribute its contents to any other person.


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-- 
//
Patrick
-

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discussion list. To post a message to the list, send your e-mail to 

All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at: 
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formats), large files, etc.
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This message is from the IEEE Product Safety Engineering Society e

Re: [PSES] Calculating Modulated Power Output. [General Use]

2017-07-05 Thread Patrick

 Of course!  But I'm never that lucky !  :)

On Jul 5, 2017 13:27, "John Woodgate"  wrote:

> If they do agree, there are an even number of mistakes (counting 0 as
> even), of course.
>
>
>
> With best wishes DESIGN IT IN! OOO – Own Opinions Only
>
> www.jmwa.demon.co.uk J M Woodgate and Associates Rayleigh England
>
>
>
> Sylvae in aeternum manent.
>
>
>
> *From:* Patrick [mailto:conwa...@gmail.com]
> *Sent:* 05 July 2017 19:45
> *To:* EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG
> *Subject:* Re: [PSES] Calculating Modulated Power Output. [General Use]
>
>
>
> Hi Andy -
>
>
>
> The calculation can be done either way, using dBW or Watts.  Either method
> will produce the same result.  Actually, I will often perform that
> calculation in both dBW and in Watts, then compare the results.  I use this
> to check my calculations.  If the two methods do not agree, then I've made
> a mistake, at least one, somewhere.
>
>
>
> Good luck!
>
>
>
> -Patrick
>
>
>
> On Thu, Jun 29, 2017 at 7:33 AM, Price, Andrew (Leonardo, UK) <
> andrew.p.pr...@leonardocompany.com> wrote:
>
> Hi all.
>
> I hope one of the RF engineers can help with this.
>
> When calculating ERP you use the Tx power either in dBW or W and the
> antenna gain in dBi.
> So when you have pulse modulation,  example 9.3GHz, 38.5dBW (7676.89W) ERP
> at a duty cycle of 13%, do you calculate the modulated power level by using
> the ERP dBW or the actual ERP Watts?
>
> Andy
>
>
>
>
>  Andrew Price
>  Land & Naval Defence Electronics Division
>  Prinicpal Environmental Engineer (EMC)
>
>  Leonardo MW Ltd
>  Sigma House, Christopher Martin Rd, Basildon SS14 3EL, UK
>  Tel  EMC LAB : +44 (0)1268 883308 <+44%201268%20883308>
>  Mobile: +44 (0)7507 854888 <+44%207507%20854888>
>  andrew.p.pr...@leonardocompany.com rew.p.pr...@leonardocompany.com>
>  leonardocomapany.com
> HELICOPTERS / AERONAUTICS / ELECTRONICS, DEFENCE AND SECURITY SYSTEMS /
> SPACE
>
> * Please consider the environment before printing this email.
>
>
>
>
> Leonardo MW Ltd
> Registered Office: Sigma House, Christopher Martin Road, Basildon, Essex
> SS14 3EL
> A company registered in England & Wales.  Company no. 02426132
> 
> This email and any attachments are confidential to the intended
> recipient and may also be privileged. If you are not the intended
> recipient please delete it from your system and notify the sender.
> You should not copy it or use it for any purpose nor disclose or
> distribute its contents to any other person.
> 
>
> -
> 
> This message is from the IEEE Product Safety Engineering Society emc-pstc
> discussion list. To post a message to the list, send your e-mail to <
> emc-p...@ieee.org>
>
> All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at:
> http://www.ieee-pses.org/emc-pstc.html
>
> Attachments are not permitted but the IEEE PSES Online Communities site at
> http://product-compliance.oc.ieee.org/ can be used for graphics (in
> well-used formats), large files, etc.
>
> Website:  http://www.ieee-pses.org/
> Instructions:  http://www.ieee-pses.org/list.html (including how to
> unsubscribe)
> List rules: http://www.ieee-pses.org/listrules.html
>
> For help, send mail to the list administrators:
> Scott Douglas 
> Mike Cantwell 
>
> For policy questions, send mail to:
> Jim Bacher:  
> David Heald: 
>
>
>
>
>
> --
>
> //
>
> Patrick
>
> -
> 
>
> This message is from the IEEE Product Safety Engineering Society emc-pstc
> discussion list. To post a message to the list, send your e-mail to <
> emc-p...@ieee.org>
>
> All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at:
> http://www.ieee-pses.org/emc-pstc.html
>
> Attachments are not permitted but the IEEE PSES Online Communities site at
> http://product-compliance.oc.ieee.org/ can be used for graphics (in
> well-used formats), large files, etc.
>
> Website: http://www.ieee-pses.org/
> Instructions: http://www.ieee-pses.org/list.html (including how to
> unsubscribe) 
> List rules: http://www.ieee-pses.org/listrules.html
>
> For help, send mail to the list administrators:
> Scott Douglas 
> Mike Cantwell 
>
> For policy questions, send mail to:
> Jim Bacher 
> David Heald 
>

-

This message is from the IEEE Product Safety Engineering Society emc-pstc 
discussion list. To post a message to the list, send your e-mail to 


All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at:
http://www.ieee-pses.org/emc-pstc.html

Attachments are not permitted but the IEEE PSES Online Communities site at 
http://product-compliance.oc.ieee.org/ can be used for

Re: [PSES] Calculating Modulated Power Output. [General Use]

2017-07-05 Thread John Woodgate

If they do agree, there are an even number of mistakes (counting 0 as even), of 
course.

With best wishes DESIGN IT IN! OOO – Own Opinions Only
  www.jmwa.demon.co.uk J M Woodgate and 
Associates Rayleigh England

Sylvae in aeternum manent.

From: Patrick [mailto:conwa...@gmail.com] 
Sent: 05 July 2017 19:45
To: EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG
Subject: Re: [PSES] Calculating Modulated Power Output. [General Use]

Hi Andy - 

The calculation can be done either way, using dBW or Watts.  Either method will 
produce the same result.  Actually, I will often perform that calculation in 
both dBW and in Watts, then compare the results.  I use this to check my 
calculations.  If the two methods do not agree, then I've made a mistake, at 
least one, somewhere.

Good luck!

-Patrick

On Thu, Jun 29, 2017 at 7:33 AM, Price, Andrew (Leonardo, UK) 
mailto:andrew.p.pr...@leonardocompany.com> 
> wrote:
Hi all.

I hope one of the RF engineers can help with this.

When calculating ERP you use the Tx power either in dBW or W and the antenna 
gain in dBi.
So when you have pulse modulation,  example 9.3GHz, 38.5dBW (7676.89W) ERP at a 
duty cycle of 13%, do you calculate the modulated power level by using the ERP 
dBW or the actual ERP Watts?

Andy

 Andrew Price
 Land & Naval Defence Electronics Division
 Prinicpal Environmental Engineer (EMC)

 Leonardo MW Ltd
 Sigma House, Christopher Martin Rd, Basildon SS14 3EL, UK
 Tel  EMC LAB : +44 (0)1268 883308
 Mobile: +44 (0)7507 854888
 andrew.p.pr...@leonardocompany.com 

 >
 leonardocomapany.com  
HELICOPTERS / AERONAUTICS / ELECTRONICS, DEFENCE AND SECURITY SYSTEMS / SPACE

* Please consider the environment before printing this email.

Leonardo MW Ltd
Registered Office: Sigma House, Christopher Martin Road, Basildon, Essex SS14 
3EL
A company registered in England & Wales.  Company no. 02426132

This email and any attachments are confidential to the intended
recipient and may also be privileged. If you are not the intended
recipient please delete it from your system and notify the sender.
You should not copy it or use it for any purpose nor disclose or
distribute its contents to any other person.

-

This message is from the IEEE Product Safety Engineering Society emc-pstc 
discussion list. To post a message to the list, send your e-mail to 
mailto:emc-p...@ieee.org> >

All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at:
http://www.ieee-pses.org/emc-pstc.html

Attachments are not permitted but the IEEE PSES Online Communities site at 
http://product-compliance.oc.ieee.org/ can be used for graphics (in well-used 
formats), large files, etc.

Website:  http://www.ieee-pses.org/
Instructions:  http://www.ieee-pses.org/list.html (including how to unsubscribe)
List rules: http://www.ieee-pses.org/listrules.html

For help, send mail to the list administrators:
Scott Douglas mailto:sdoug...@ieee.org> >
Mike Cantwell mailto:mcantw...@ieee.org> >

For policy questions, send mail to:
Jim Bacher:  mailto:j.bac...@ieee.org> >
David Heald: mailto:dhe...@gmail.com> >

-- 
//
Patrick
-

This message is from the IEEE Product Safety Engineering Society emc-pstc 
discussion list. To post a message to the list, send your e-mail to 
mailto:emc-p...@ieee.org> >
All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at: 
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Attachments are not permitted but the IEEE PSES Online Communities site at 
http://product-compliance.oc.ieee.org/ can be used for graphics (in well-used 
formats), large files, etc.
Website: http://www.ieee-pses.org/
Instructions: http://www.ieee-pses.org/list.html (including how to unsubscribe) 

List rules: http://www.ieee-pses.org/listrules.html 
For help, send mail to the list administrators:
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Mike Cantwell mailto:mcantw...@ieee.org> > 
For policy questions, send mail to:
Jim Bacher mailto:j.bac...@ieee.org> >
David Heald mailto:dhe...@gmail.com> > 

-

This message is from the IEEE Product Safety Engineering Society emc-pstc 
discussion list. To post a message to the list, send your e-mail to 

All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at:
http://www.ieee-pses.org/emc-pstc.html

Attachments are not permitted but the IEEE PSES Online Communities site at 
http://product-compliance.oc.ieee.org/ can be

Re: [PSES] Calculating Modulated Power Output. [General Use]

2017-07-05 Thread Patrick

Hi Andy -

The calculation can be done either way, using dBW or Watts.  Either method
will produce the same result.  Actually, I will often perform that
calculation in both dBW and in Watts, then compare the results.  I use this
to check my calculations.  If the two methods do not agree, then I've made
a mistake, at least one, somewhere.

Good luck!

-Patrick

On Thu, Jun 29, 2017 at 7:33 AM, Price, Andrew (Leonardo, UK) <
andrew.p.pr...@leonardocompany.com> wrote:

> Hi all.
>
> I hope one of the RF engineers can help with this.
>
> When calculating ERP you use the Tx power either in dBW or W and the
> antenna gain in dBi.
> So when you have pulse modulation,  example 9.3GHz, 38.5dBW (7676.89W) ERP
> at a duty cycle of 13%, do you calculate the modulated power level by using
> the ERP dBW or the actual ERP Watts?
>
> Andy
>
>
>
>
>  Andrew Price
>  Land & Naval Defence Electronics Division
>  Prinicpal Environmental Engineer (EMC)
>
>  Leonardo MW Ltd
>  Sigma House, Christopher Martin Rd, Basildon SS14 3EL, UK
>  Tel  EMC LAB : +44 (0)1268 883308
>  Mobile: +44 (0)7507 854888
>  andrew.p.pr...@leonardocompany.com rew.p.pr...@leonardocompany.com>
>  leonardocomapany.com
> HELICOPTERS / AERONAUTICS / ELECTRONICS, DEFENCE AND SECURITY SYSTEMS /
> SPACE
>
> * Please consider the environment before printing this email.
>
>
>
>
> Leonardo MW Ltd
> Registered Office: Sigma House, Christopher Martin Road, Basildon, Essex
> SS14 3EL
> A company registered in England & Wales.  Company no. 02426132
> 
> This email and any attachments are confidential to the intended
> recipient and may also be privileged. If you are not the intended
> recipient please delete it from your system and notify the sender.
> You should not copy it or use it for any purpose nor disclose or
> distribute its contents to any other person.
> 
>
> -
> 
> This message is from the IEEE Product Safety Engineering Society emc-pstc
> discussion list. To post a message to the list, send your e-mail to <
> emc-p...@ieee.org>
>
> All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at:
> http://www.ieee-pses.org/emc-pstc.html
>
> Attachments are not permitted but the IEEE PSES Online Communities site at
> http://product-compliance.oc.ieee.org/ can be used for graphics (in
> well-used formats), large files, etc.
>
> Website:  http://www.ieee-pses.org/
> Instructions:  http://www.ieee-pses.org/list.html (including how to
> unsubscribe)
> List rules: http://www.ieee-pses.org/listrules.html
>
> For help, send mail to the list administrators:
> Scott Douglas 
> Mike Cantwell 
>
> For policy questions, send mail to:
> Jim Bacher:  
> David Heald: 
>



-- 
//
Patrick

-

This message is from the IEEE Product Safety Engineering Society emc-pstc 
discussion list. To post a message to the list, send your e-mail to 


All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at:
http://www.ieee-pses.org/emc-pstc.html

Attachments are not permitted but the IEEE PSES Online Communities site at 
http://product-compliance.oc.ieee.org/ can be used for graphics (in well-used 
formats), large files, etc.

Website:  http://www.ieee-pses.org/
Instructions:  http://www.ieee-pses.org/list.html (including how to unsubscribe)
List rules: http://www.ieee-pses.org/listrules.html

For help, send mail to the list administrators:
Scott Douglas 
Mike Cantwell 

For policy questions, send mail to:
Jim Bacher:  
David Heald:

Re: [PSES] Ethernet spacing and product insulation

2017-07-05 Thread JIM WIESE


I am resending as it says this was rejected due to me clipping a portion of the 
code and pasting it and apparently images are not allowed.  Sorry I cannot 
include that, but it is the text right above 725.124 that I was trying to point 
out

Jim Wiese
Senior Compliance Engineer

Office: 256.963.8431
Mobile: 256.714.5882
Email: jim.wi...@adtran.com
Web: www.adtran.com

ADTRAN
901 Explorer Boulevard
Huntsville, AL 35806 - USA



From: JIM WIESE
Sent: Wednesday, July 05, 2017 11:54 AM
To: 'ri...@ieee.org'; 
EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG
Subject: RE: [PSES] Ethernet spacing and product insulation

Actually there is quite a bit out there on this subject, the problem is it is 
all scattered and changing and much makes no sense.


1.)There is a UL PAG and an IEC Technical Report that describes that PoE 
should be treated as a TNV1 in 60950-1

2.)As it should be treated as TNV1, it must meet Clause 6. (but for some 
unknown reason, that many have questioned as flawed, they say AC power faults 
should be waived??)

3.)60950-1 and various other standards ranging from Telcordia to ATIS/ANSI 
etc limit the power to 100 VA

4.)Published industry standards and IEEE 802.3 allow up to 60 VA, but 
imminently there will be 100VA PoE standards.

5.)IEEE 802.3 has an isolation test criteria, where you must be isolated 
from the PoE port to anything else in the world by one of three options, 
1500Vrms, 2250VDC, or a 2400V impulse.  The first 2 options are 60 second 
tests, and probably impact your original question.

6.)The flaw in this IEEE 802.3 test is that many manufacturers place very 
large capacitance between  the PoE interface supply and the rest of the world 
(i.e. digital ground or chassis ground).  It passes option 2 very nicely, but 
in the real world it looks like a virtual short circuit to lightning and the 
PoE controllers get blown out.

7.)Now here is where things get tricky.  In The US and Canada the national 
electric codes 725 and 840 were modified in 2017 to address specifically PoE.  
These changes include having to mark and junction point of the circuits 
(effective January 2018) with the voltage and current of the source available 
at that location.  Technically this means at the source so each port must be 
labeled, and at every jack panel, data wall outlet and at the input to the PD.  
This could be a nightmare

See text right above NEC 725.124 for labeling criteria!!!



8.)In addition a lot of people think PoE falls under article 840 of the NEC 
when in fact that is only true a very small subset of the time IF the PoE 
device is a “network Terminal” installed and owned by a “communications utility 
Service provider” (see definitions in 840 and references to 800 definitions).  
If you meet these definitions, you stay in article 840, unless you are over 60 
watts per port, in which case you get shoved to article 725.144 which sends you 
all over 725 and the rest of the code.  In particular if you bundle your PoE 
cables, you have to comply with Table 725.144 which is new.  Not sure how you 
do this as Table 725.144 is based on a current per conductor, and the AHJ has 
no way of determining that, since the ports will be labeled with a voltage and 
total current  (and no power rating to see if 840.160 applies??)

9.)If you are not a “network Terminal” from a communications utility 
service provider, you start out in 725.121 (A)(4), and never get to article 840 
at all  (the language in 840.170 (G) desperately needs to be copied over to 
725.121 (A)(4)).  This is an interesting twist as 840 limits voltage to 60 VDC. 
 But 725.121 via section 9 Table 11b will allow PoE up to 150VDC.  But the 
current safety standards will limit you to below 120VDC

10.) But there is a lot of heated debate on the NEC panels and in particular 
840.160 might get rid of the 60 watt reference and send PoE with greater than 
.3 amps per conductor to 725.144 instead.  We will see what happens!!

11.)  Now even more interesting is IEC 62368-1 and UL 62368-1.  Whereas UL 
60950-1 has a deviation to limit voltage to 60VDC and requires section 6 like a 
telecom port, 62368-1 has no such provision, and the UL/CSA version failed to 
incorporate this important deviation, so you can go to 120VDC.  But there is a 
bigger mess in that they changed some wording that describes the power on Type 
1 and 2 external  interfaces (which PoE and telecom fall), and make it sound 
like it has a power limitation of 15 watts.  (in 60950-1 this text was 
different and was intended to mitigate the need for some fire enclosure 
requirements which telecom stuff did not meet, telecom was however allowed to 
be up to 100VA).  But many people interpret that 62378-1 only allows up to 15 
VA on these ports now.  Which really messes people up doing 62368-1 Listings 
with PoE.

12.) Just when you think ther

Re: [PSES] Calculating Modulated Power Output. [General Use]

Re: [PSES] Calculating Modulated Power Output. [General Use]

Re: [PSES] Calculating Modulated Power Output. [General Use]

Re: [PSES] Calculating Modulated Power Output. [General Use]

Re: [PSES] Ethernet spacing and product insulation

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