Re: [PSES] light flicker
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/On_the_Internet,_nobody_knows_you%27re_a_dog#/media/File:Internet_dog.jpg Ted Eckert Microsoft Corporation The opinions expressed are my own and do not necessarily reflect those of my employer or the American Kennel Club. -Original Message- From: Jim Hulbert Sent: Friday, March 2, 2018 11:50 AM To: EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG Subject: Re: [PSES] light flicker Did you get replies from other than humans? Jim Hulbert -Original Message- From: Brian O'Connell [mailto:oconne...@tamuracorp.com] Sent: Friday, March 02, 2018 2:31 PM To: EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG Subject: Re: [PSES] light flicker Good People, Thanks to the humans that replied on and off-line. Much appreciated. Have also noted that there has been some interesting discussions on the subject per the proposed Peoples Republic of California Energy Commission regulations for LED luminaires; for example, note this comment to the CEC: https://na01.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=http%3A%2F%2Fdocketpublic.energy.ca.gov%2FPublicDocuments%2F17-BSTD-02%2FTN222823_20180302T105129_Kelly_Seeger_Comments_Philips_Lighting_additional_comments_on_N.pdf&data=04%7C01%7Cted.eckert%40microsoft.com%7C6f29987962df4fbac58908d5807b64b1%7C72f988bf86f141af91ab2d7cd011db47%7C1%7C1%7C636556189825131274%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwifQ%3D%3D%7C-1&sdata=ps5%2F%2Buvs0OKiU%2FS8uZJ%2BmJM%2BBsf5Q6eupMaDyTvl%2FBs%3D&reserved=0 Brian -Original Message- From: Brian O'Connell Sent: Wednesday, February 21, 2018 2:14 PM To: EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG Subject: light flicker Does any 60601 collateral standard, address limits for light-source flicker; or have any other requirements for the light-flicker frequencies emitted by a luminaire? Have noted IEC60601-2-41 but do not have it; does it provide light-flicker frequency limits? Am already aware of the TLA stuff in NEMA77 and IEEE1789, and the IEC61000-4-15 'flickermeter' stuff. These standards are contradictory, and the IEEE standard fails to provide any reference to biophysical data that would provide a rationale. And 60601-1 clause 10 does not say much other than the generic response that references the RMF. Thanks, Brian - This message is from the IEEE Product Safety Engineering Society emc-pstc discussion list. To post a message to the list, send your e-mail to All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at: https://na01.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.ieee-pses.org%2Femc-pstc.html&data=04%7C01%7Cted.eckert%40microsoft.com%7C6f29987962df4fbac58908d5807b64b1%7C72f988bf86f141af91ab2d7cd011db47%7C1%7C0%7C636556189825131274%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwifQ%3D%3D%7C-1&sdata=V9OW0P%2F8eMlnYfXqilXscGxxXSzUvQ8CktXzhnGM0yw%3D&reserved=0 Attachments are not permitted but the IEEE PSES Online Communities site at https://na01.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=http%3A%2F%2Fproduct-compliance.oc.ieee.org%2F&data=04%7C01%7Cted.eckert%40microsoft.com%7C6f29987962df4fbac58908d5807b64b1%7C72f988bf86f141af91ab2d7cd011db47%7C1%7C0%7C636556189825131274%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwifQ%3D%3D%7C-1&sdata=7Jy3BlB8Um306ToiCcQO572GzWLt7Xkf92xPeAgtI9I%3D&reserved=0 can be used for graphics (in well-used formats), large files, etc. Website: https://na01.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.ieee-pses.org%2F&data=04%7C01%7Cted.eckert%40microsoft.com%7C6f29987962df4fbac58908d5807b64b1%7C72f988bf86f141af91ab2d7cd011db47%7C1%7C0%7C636556189825131274%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwifQ%3D%3D%7C-1&sdata=Q0MOluiwk6QyoV7EFPID4lwx%2B%2F2gFUwGPY8HHimzoU0%3D&reserved=0 Instructions: https://na01.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.ieee-pses.org%2Flist.html&data=04%7C01%7Cted.eckert%40microsoft.com%7C6f29987962df4fbac58908d5807b64b1%7C72f988bf86f141af91ab2d7cd011db47%7C1%7C0%7C636556189825131274%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwifQ%3D%3D%7C-1&sdata=dm7ykkXlS8Xm2yJVDlTUM4m4%2B2BauT9Fo4DuZJYoxWg%3D&reserved=0 (including how to unsubscribe) List rules: https://na01.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.ieee-pses.org%2Flistrules.html&data=04%7C01%7Cted.eckert%40microsoft.com%7C6f29987962df4fbac58908d5807b64b1%7C72f988bf86f141af91ab2d7cd011db47%7C1%7C0%7C636556189825131274%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwifQ%3D%3D%7C-1&sdata=9u5%2F2Msf9a2IaIkUTGW9gHPT36WUkFQGj88bhlSc38g%3D&reserved=0 For help, send mail to the list administrators: Scott Douglas Mike Cantwell For policy questions, send mail to: Jim Bacher: David Heald: - This message is from the IEEE Product Safety Engineering Society emc-ps
Re: [PSES] light flicker
A Swede, perhaps. John Woodgate OOO-Own Opinions Only J M Woodgate and Associates www.woodjohn.uk Rayleigh, Essex UK On 2018-03-02 19:50, Jim Hulbert wrote: Did you get replies from other than humans? Jim Hulbert -Original Message- From: Brian O'Connell [mailto:oconne...@tamuracorp.com] Sent: Friday, March 02, 2018 2:31 PM To: EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG Subject: Re: [PSES] light flicker Good People, Thanks to the humans that replied on and off-line. Much appreciated. Have also noted that there has been some interesting discussions on the subject per the proposed Peoples Republic of California Energy Commission regulations for LED luminaires; for example, note this comment to the CEC: http://docketpublic.energy.ca.gov/PublicDocuments/17-BSTD-02/TN222823_20180302T105129_Kelly_Seeger_Comments_Philips_Lighting_additional_comments_on_N.pdf Brian -Original Message- From: Brian O'Connell Sent: Wednesday, February 21, 2018 2:14 PM To: EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG Subject: light flicker Does any 60601 collateral standard, address limits for light-source flicker; or have any other requirements for the light-flicker frequencies emitted by a luminaire? Have noted IEC60601-2-41 but do not have it; does it provide light-flicker frequency limits? Am already aware of the TLA stuff in NEMA77 and IEEE1789, and the IEC61000-4-15 'flickermeter' stuff. These standards are contradictory, and the IEEE standard fails to provide any reference to biophysical data that would provide a rationale. And 60601-1 clause 10 does not say much other than the generic response that references the RMF. Thanks, Brian - This message is from the IEEE Product Safety Engineering Society emc-pstc discussion list. To post a message to the list, send your e-mail to All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at: http://www.ieee-pses.org/emc-pstc.html Attachments are not permitted but the IEEE PSES Online Communities site at http://product-compliance.oc.ieee.org/ can be used for graphics (in well-used formats), large files, etc. Website: http://www.ieee-pses.org/ Instructions: http://www.ieee-pses.org/list.html (including how to unsubscribe) List rules: http://www.ieee-pses.org/listrules.html For help, send mail to the list administrators: Scott Douglas Mike Cantwell For policy questions, send mail to: Jim Bacher: David Heald: - This message is from the IEEE Product Safety Engineering Society emc-pstc discussion list. To post a message to the list, send your e-mail to All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at: http://www.ieee-pses.org/emc-pstc.html Attachments are not permitted but the IEEE PSES Online Communities site at http://product-compliance.oc.ieee.org/ can be used for graphics (in well-used formats), large files, etc. Website: http://www.ieee-pses.org/ Instructions: http://www.ieee-pses.org/list.html (including how to unsubscribe) List rules: http://www.ieee-pses.org/listrules.html For help, send mail to the list administrators: Scott Douglas Mike Cantwell For policy questions, send mail to: Jim Bacher: David Heald: - This message is from the IEEE Product Safety Engineering Society emc-pstc discussion list. To post a message to the list, send your e-mail to All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at: http://www.ieee-pses.org/emc-pstc.html Attachments are not permitted but the IEEE PSES Online Communities site at http://product-compliance.oc.ieee.org/ can be used for graphics (in well-used formats), large files, etc. Website: http://www.ieee-pses.org/ Instructions: http://www.ieee-pses.org/list.html (including how to unsubscribe) List rules: http://www.ieee-pses.org/listrules.html For help, send mail to the list administrators: Scott Douglas Mike Cantwell For policy questions, send mail to: Jim Bacher: David Heald:
Re: [PSES] light flicker
Did you get replies from other than humans? Jim Hulbert -Original Message- From: Brian O'Connell [mailto:oconne...@tamuracorp.com] Sent: Friday, March 02, 2018 2:31 PM To: EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG Subject: Re: [PSES] light flicker Good People, Thanks to the humans that replied on and off-line. Much appreciated. Have also noted that there has been some interesting discussions on the subject per the proposed Peoples Republic of California Energy Commission regulations for LED luminaires; for example, note this comment to the CEC: http://docketpublic.energy.ca.gov/PublicDocuments/17-BSTD-02/TN222823_20180302T105129_Kelly_Seeger_Comments_Philips_Lighting_additional_comments_on_N.pdf Brian -Original Message- From: Brian O'Connell Sent: Wednesday, February 21, 2018 2:14 PM To: EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG Subject: light flicker Does any 60601 collateral standard, address limits for light-source flicker; or have any other requirements for the light-flicker frequencies emitted by a luminaire? Have noted IEC60601-2-41 but do not have it; does it provide light-flicker frequency limits? Am already aware of the TLA stuff in NEMA77 and IEEE1789, and the IEC61000-4-15 'flickermeter' stuff. These standards are contradictory, and the IEEE standard fails to provide any reference to biophysical data that would provide a rationale. And 60601-1 clause 10 does not say much other than the generic response that references the RMF. Thanks, Brian - This message is from the IEEE Product Safety Engineering Society emc-pstc discussion list. To post a message to the list, send your e-mail to All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at: http://www.ieee-pses.org/emc-pstc.html Attachments are not permitted but the IEEE PSES Online Communities site at http://product-compliance.oc.ieee.org/ can be used for graphics (in well-used formats), large files, etc. Website: http://www.ieee-pses.org/ Instructions: http://www.ieee-pses.org/list.html (including how to unsubscribe) List rules: http://www.ieee-pses.org/listrules.html For help, send mail to the list administrators: Scott Douglas Mike Cantwell For policy questions, send mail to: Jim Bacher: David Heald: - This message is from the IEEE Product Safety Engineering Society emc-pstc discussion list. To post a message to the list, send your e-mail to All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at: http://www.ieee-pses.org/emc-pstc.html Attachments are not permitted but the IEEE PSES Online Communities site at http://product-compliance.oc.ieee.org/ can be used for graphics (in well-used formats), large files, etc. Website: http://www.ieee-pses.org/ Instructions: http://www.ieee-pses.org/list.html (including how to unsubscribe) List rules: http://www.ieee-pses.org/listrules.html For help, send mail to the list administrators: Scott Douglas Mike Cantwell For policy questions, send mail to: Jim Bacher: David Heald:
Re: [PSES] light flicker
Although I expect TC62 will do its own thing re IEC 60601, IEC SC77AWG2 is also studying new flicker phenomena. John Woodgate OOO-Own Opinions Only J M Woodgate and Associates www.woodjohn.uk Rayleigh, Essex UK On 2018-03-02 19:31, Brian O'Connell wrote: Good People, Thanks to the humans that replied on and off-line. Much appreciated. Have also noted that there has been some interesting discussions on the subject per the proposed Peoples Republic of California Energy Commission regulations for LED luminaires; for example, note this comment to the CEC: http://docketpublic.energy.ca.gov/PublicDocuments/17-BSTD-02/TN222823_20180302T105129_Kelly_Seeger_Comments_Philips_Lighting_additional_comments_on_N.pdf Brian -Original Message- From: Brian O'Connell Sent: Wednesday, February 21, 2018 2:14 PM To: EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG Subject: light flicker Does any 60601 collateral standard, address limits for light-source flicker; or have any other requirements for the light-flicker frequencies emitted by a luminaire? Have noted IEC60601-2-41 but do not have it; does it provide light-flicker frequency limits? Am already aware of the TLA stuff in NEMA77 and IEEE1789, and the IEC61000-4-15 'flickermeter' stuff. These standards are contradictory, and the IEEE standard fails to provide any reference to biophysical data that would provide a rationale. And 60601-1 clause 10 does not say much other than the generic response that references the RMF. Thanks, Brian - This message is from the IEEE Product Safety Engineering Society emc-pstc discussion list. To post a message to the list, send your e-mail to All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at: http://www.ieee-pses.org/emc-pstc.html Attachments are not permitted but the IEEE PSES Online Communities site at http://product-compliance.oc.ieee.org/ can be used for graphics (in well-used formats), large files, etc. Website: http://www.ieee-pses.org/ Instructions: http://www.ieee-pses.org/list.html (including how to unsubscribe) List rules: http://www.ieee-pses.org/listrules.html For help, send mail to the list administrators: Scott Douglas Mike Cantwell For policy questions, send mail to: Jim Bacher: David Heald: - This message is from the IEEE Product Safety Engineering Society emc-pstc discussion list. To post a message to the list, send your e-mail to All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at: http://www.ieee-pses.org/emc-pstc.html Attachments are not permitted but the IEEE PSES Online Communities site at http://product-compliance.oc.ieee.org/ can be used for graphics (in well-used formats), large files, etc. Website: http://www.ieee-pses.org/ Instructions: http://www.ieee-pses.org/list.html (including how to unsubscribe) List rules: http://www.ieee-pses.org/listrules.html For help, send mail to the list administrators: Scott Douglas Mike Cantwell For policy questions, send mail to: Jim Bacher: David Heald:
Re: [PSES] light flicker
Good People, Thanks to the humans that replied on and off-line. Much appreciated. Have also noted that there has been some interesting discussions on the subject per the proposed Peoples Republic of California Energy Commission regulations for LED luminaires; for example, note this comment to the CEC: http://docketpublic.energy.ca.gov/PublicDocuments/17-BSTD-02/TN222823_20180302T105129_Kelly_Seeger_Comments_Philips_Lighting_additional_comments_on_N.pdf Brian -Original Message- From: Brian O'Connell Sent: Wednesday, February 21, 2018 2:14 PM To: EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG Subject: light flicker Does any 60601 collateral standard, address limits for light-source flicker; or have any other requirements for the light-flicker frequencies emitted by a luminaire? Have noted IEC60601-2-41 but do not have it; does it provide light-flicker frequency limits? Am already aware of the TLA stuff in NEMA77 and IEEE1789, and the IEC61000-4-15 'flickermeter' stuff. These standards are contradictory, and the IEEE standard fails to provide any reference to biophysical data that would provide a rationale. And 60601-1 clause 10 does not say much other than the generic response that references the RMF. Thanks, Brian - This message is from the IEEE Product Safety Engineering Society emc-pstc discussion list. To post a message to the list, send your e-mail to All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at: http://www.ieee-pses.org/emc-pstc.html Attachments are not permitted but the IEEE PSES Online Communities site at http://product-compliance.oc.ieee.org/ can be used for graphics (in well-used formats), large files, etc. Website: http://www.ieee-pses.org/ Instructions: http://www.ieee-pses.org/list.html (including how to unsubscribe) List rules: http://www.ieee-pses.org/listrules.html For help, send mail to the list administrators: Scott Douglas Mike Cantwell For policy questions, send mail to: Jim Bacher: David Heald:
