Re: [PSES] EMF harmonised standards

[Charlie Blackham]

Scott

There no “solid guidance”

EN 50663:2017 is a much more recent standard and makes reference to both EN 
62311:2008 and EN 62479:2010 for assessment, but does not allow use of EN 62479 
table B.1 for using higher transmit powers for values of Pmax

Best regards
Charlie

Charlie Blackham
Sulis Consultants Ltd
Tel: +44 (0)7946 624317
Web: https://sulisconsultants.com/
Registered in England and Wales, number 05466247

From: Scott Xe 
Sent: 30 September 2020 14:53
To: EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG
Subject: [PSES] EMF harmonised standards

I notice EN 62311 is commonly used for electrical appliances.  For AV/ITE 
products, there are 3 standards: EN 50633, EN 62311 and EN 62479 to be used.  
Is there any solid guidance to select the correct standard for the product 
category?

Thanks and regards,

Scott
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Re: [PSES] electric shock from capacitor discharge

[Dan Roman]

I can attest to the CRT tubes.  I worked in a TV shop in high school and was 
asked to get all of the old 25” color CRTs out of the basement because the 
refurb place was picking them up.  They had been stored down there for a long 
time but I picked one up with the anode pressed against my stomach and I got 
quite a jolt through my shirt.  They act like caps and can store a charge a lot 
longer than I thought they would!

 

Stay safe, stay well.

 

Dan

 

From: MIKE SHERMAN [mailto:msherma...@comcast.net] 
Sent: Tuesday, September 29, 2020 8:58 PM
To: EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG
Subject: Re: [PSES] electric shock from capacitor discharge

 

Rich -- 

 

Are you including old CRTs as capacitors? I recall that, even with the early 
Macs, you had to be careful to discharge the tube if you were going to mess 
around inside. 

 

Mike 

On 09/29/2020 4:27 PM Richard Nute mailto:ri...@ieee.org> > 
wrote: 

 

 

 

I am interested in knowing what constructions, situations, and products where a 
capacitive discharge into a body could take place.

I am aware of the X and Y capacitors discharge at the prongs of a power plug.  
I don’t immediately know of other situations or products that might discharge a 
capacitor into a body.  

I would appreciate descriptions of such discharges into a body, not conjecture. 
 Preferably, normal conditions and some single-fault conditions. 

Do we need to include capacitive discharge requirements in the safety standards?

Stay safe!

Rich


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Re: [PSES] AW: [PSES] Low Voltage Products and EN 62368-1 and -3

[Pete Perkins]

Scott et al.  

 

   I agree that the use of a certified power supply is not adequate 
to show that the operating product is safe in its application.  

 

   62368-3 is mentioned in your original post.  

 

   IEC 62368-3 Safety aspects for DC power  transfer through 
communication cables and ports; it is a Horizontal standard within the IEC.  

 

The scope of 62368-3 is: This part of IEC 62368 applies to equipment intended 
to supply and receive operating power through communication cables or ports. It 
covers particular requirements for circuits that are designed to transfer DC 
power from a power sourcing equipment (PSE) to a powered device (PD).  

 

   62368-3 uses 62368-1 as the basis for determining compliance so 
both would be invoked for evaluating your ITE units.  

 

   62368-3 was developed by TC108 at the request of ACOS to provide 
uniform common safety requirements for these interfaces which could be broadly 
applied across many product applications.  It is intended to be applied to any 
USB or PoE powered product.  It should be adapted by other product standards 
committees to their construction since it is an IEC Horizontal standard.  

 

:>) br,  Pete

 

Peter E Perkins, PE

Principal Product Safety & Regulatory Affairs Consultant

PO Box 1067

Albany, ORe  97321-0413

 

503/452-1201

 

IEEE Life Fellow

IEEE PSES 2020 Distinguished Lecturer

  p.perk...@ieee.org

 

Entropy ain’t what it used to be

 

From: Dürrer Bernd  
Sent: Wednesday, September 30, 2020 12:35 AM
To: EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG
Subject: [PSES] AW: [PSES] Low Voltage Products and EN 62368-1 and -3

 

Hi Scott,

 

please note that Annex III of the EU LVD requires a risk analysis as part of 
the technical documentation 
(https://eur-lex.europa.eu/legal-content/EN/TXT/HTML/?uri=CELEX:32014L0035 

 &from=EN#d1e32-370-1). So you may either create your own exhaustive risk 
analysis for your products, or claim compliance with the applicable product 
safety standard EN 62368-1, to demonstrate that your complete product does not 
present a risk and complies with the safety objectives of the LVD. If your 
products include a wireless interface or other radio function, it is in the 
scope of the RED which does not have a minimum voltage limit in Article 3, 1(a) 
(https://eur-lex.europa.eu/legal-content/EN/TXT/HTML/?uri=CELEX:32014L0053 

 &from=EN#d1e975-62-1). Therefore, for equipment powered by extra-low voltage 
the RED requires compliance with the safety objectives of the LVD and the 
applicable product safety standards.

 

Kind regards,

 

Bernd

 

Von: Scott Douglas  
Gesendet: Dienstag, 29. September 2020 22:52
An: EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG
Betreff: [PSES] Low Voltage Products and EN 62368-1 and -3

 

Esteemed colleagues,

 

Question on EN 62368-1 and -3 related to low voltage products.

 

Products are ITE equipment with power requirement of 5v or 12v DC and less than 
4 amps, sometimes they are powered by PoE. We ship some of these products with 
an external power supply 120/230 V~ input and 5 or 12 VDC output. The EPS 
always have full certifications to normal safety standards including 62368-1. 
Other times we do not include an EPS with the product.

 

One of our factories is trying to tell us that under IEC/EN 62368-1 or -3, our 
products are required to have safety certifications, that having just the EPS 
certified to 62368-1 is not enough.

 

We have always said that since these are low voltage products (even the PoE 
ones) that safety certifications are not required for the products themselves.

 

Has something changed where these type products are now required to have safety 
approvals for the EU or US/Canada markets? Or since they are not directly 
connected to the AC Mains, they do not need safety approvals?

 

Looking for someone to either confirm my sanity or teach me a new lesson. All 
comments welcome.

 

Scott

 

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Re: [PSES] [EXTERNAL] Re: [PSES] electric shock from capacitor discharge

[John Allen]

I believe most Standards that have a requirement regarding it, require bleed 
off within 60 seconds.

From: Pete Perkins <0061f3f32d0c-dmarc-requ...@listserv.ieee.org>
Sent: Wednesday, September 30, 2020 10:48 AM
To: EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG
Subject: Re: [PSES] [EXTERNAL] Re: [PSES] electric shock from capacitor 
discharge

Rich et al,It’s been a while but, as I remember, servicing laser 
products used on industrial equipment required consideration of the stored cap 
charge that could be accessible to the technician.

:>) br,  Pete

Peter E Perkins, PE
Principal Product Safety & Regulatory Affairs Consultant
PO Box 1067
Albany, ORe  97321-0413

503/452-1201

IEEE Life Fellow
IEEE PSES 2020 Distinguished Lecturer
p.perk...@ieee.org

Entropy ain’t what it used to be

From: MIKE SHERMAN mailto:msherma...@comcast.net>>
Sent: Wednesday, September 30, 2020 8:42 AM
To: EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG
Subject: Re: [PSES] [EXTERNAL] Re: [PSES] electric shock from capacitor 
discharge

I've seen some motor caps on industrial induction motors whose capacitance gave 
me pause. I think we specified a minimum bleed down time to allow before 
servicing.
Mike Sherman
Graco Inc.
On 09/29/2020 10:21 PM Ted Eckert 
<07cf6ebeab9d-dmarc-requ...@listserv.ieee.org>
 wrote:


Hi Rich,

I can’t think of many cases of modern IT equipment with a significant risk of 
capacitance discharge through the plug. However, I could foresee motor-driven 
equipment where it could be an issue. The manufacturer might put a power factor 
correction capacitor across the line to compensate for the inductive load of 
the motor. The motor should bleed off the charge of the capacitor, but there 
may still be some residual charge when the user pulls the plug. You probably 
wouldn’t have that large of a capacitor on a plug-connected motor appliance, 
but it is possible.

It’s been more than a decade since I worked with large motor-drive appliances, 
so my memory of their workings isn’t great. I’m sure there is somebody on this 
list server who can correct any error I’ve made in my statements.

Ted Eckert
The opinions expressed are my own and do not necessarily reflect those of my 
employer.


From: MIKE SHERMAN mailto:msherma...@comcast.net>>
Sent: Tuesday, September 29, 2020 5:58 PM
To: EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG
Subject: [EXTERNAL] Re: [PSES] electric shock from capacitor discharge

Rich --

Are you including old CRTs as capacitors? I recall that, even with the early 
Macs, you had to be careful to discharge the tube if you were going to mess 
around inside.

Mike
On 09/29/2020 4:27 PM Richard Nute mailto:ri...@ieee.org>> 
wrote:




I am interested in knowing what constructions, situations, and products where a 
capacitive discharge into a body could take place.

I am aware of the X and Y capacitors discharge at the prongs of a power plug.  
I don’t immediately know of other situations or products that might discharge a 
capacitor into a body.

I would appreciate descriptions of such discharges into a body, not conjecture. 
 Preferably, normal conditions and some single-fault conditions.

Do we need to include capacitive discharge requirements in the safety standards?

Stay safe!

Rich

-


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 can be used for graphics (in well-used formats), large files, etc.

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Re: [PSES] [EXTERNAL] Re: [PSES] electric shock from capacitor discharge

[Pete Perkins]

Rich et al,It’s been a while but, as I remember, servicing laser 
products used on industrial equipment required consideration of the stored cap 
charge that could be accessible to the technician.  

 

:>) br,  Pete

 

Peter E Perkins, PE

Principal Product Safety & Regulatory Affairs Consultant

PO Box 1067

Albany, ORe  97321-0413

 

503/452-1201

 

IEEE Life Fellow

IEEE PSES 2020 Distinguished Lecturer

  p.perk...@ieee.org

 

Entropy ain’t what it used to be

 

From: MIKE SHERMAN  
Sent: Wednesday, September 30, 2020 8:42 AM
To: EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG
Subject: Re: [PSES] [EXTERNAL] Re: [PSES] electric shock from capacitor 
discharge

 

I've seen some motor caps on industrial induction motors whose capacitance gave 
me pause. I think we specified a minimum bleed down time to allow before 
servicing. 

Mike Sherman 

Graco Inc. 

On 09/29/2020 10:21 PM Ted Eckert 
<07cf6ebeab9d-dmarc-requ...@listserv.ieee.org 
 > wrote: 

 

 

Hi Rich,

 

I can’t think of many cases of modern IT equipment with a significant risk of 
capacitance discharge through the plug. However, I could foresee motor-driven 
equipment where it could be an issue. The manufacturer might put a power factor 
correction capacitor across the line to compensate for the inductive load of 
the motor. The motor should bleed off the charge of the capacitor, but there 
may still be some residual charge when the user pulls the plug. You probably 
wouldn’t have that large of a capacitor on a plug-connected motor appliance, 
but it is possible.

 

It’s been more than a decade since I worked with large motor-drive appliances, 
so my memory of their workings isn’t great. I’m sure there is somebody on this 
list server who can correct any error I’ve made in my statements.

 

Ted Eckert

The opinions expressed are my own and do not necessarily reflect those of my 
employer.

 

 

From: MIKE SHERMAN mailto:msherma...@comcast.net> > 
Sent: Tuesday, September 29, 2020 5:58 PM
To: EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG  
Subject: [EXTERNAL] Re: [PSES] electric shock from capacitor discharge

 

Rich -- 

 

Are you including old CRTs as capacitors? I recall that, even with the early 
Macs, you had to be careful to discharge the tube if you were going to mess 
around inside. 

 

Mike 

On 09/29/2020 4:27 PM Richard Nute mailto:ri...@ieee.org> > 
wrote:

 

 

 

I am interested in knowing what constructions, situations, and products where a 
capacitive discharge into a body could take place.

I am aware of the X and Y capacitors discharge at the prongs of a power plug.  
I don’t immediately know of other situations or products that might discharge a 
capacitor into a body.  

I would appreciate descriptions of such discharges into a body, not conjecture. 
 Preferably, normal conditions and some single-fault conditions. 

Do we need to include capacitive discharge requirements in the safety standards?

Stay safe!

Rich


- 


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  can be used for graphics (in well-used formats), large files, etc.

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Re: [PSES] [EXTERNAL] Re: [PSES] electric shock from capacitor discharge

[MIKE SHERMAN]

I've seen some motor caps on industrial induction motors whose capacitance gave 
me pause. I think we specified a minimum bleed down time to allow before 
servicing.
Mike Sherman
Graco Inc.

> On 09/29/2020 10:21 PM Ted Eckert 
> <07cf6ebeab9d-dmarc-requ...@listserv.ieee.org> wrote:
> 
> 
> 
> Hi Rich,
> 
> 
> I can’t think of many cases of modern IT equipment with a significant 
> risk of capacitance discharge through the plug. However, I could foresee 
> motor-driven equipment where it could be an issue. The manufacturer might put 
> a power factor correction capacitor across the line to compensate for the 
> inductive load of the motor. The motor should bleed off the charge of the 
> capacitor, but there may still be some residual charge when the user pulls 
> the plug. You probably wouldn’t have that large of a capacitor on a 
> plug-connected motor appliance, but it is possible.
> 
> 
> It’s been more than a decade since I worked with large motor-drive 
> appliances, so my memory of their workings isn’t great. I’m sure there is 
> somebody on this list server who can correct any error I’ve made in my 
> statements.
> 
> 
> Ted Eckert
> 
> The opinions expressed are my own and do not necessarily reflect those of 
> my employer.
> 
>  
> 
> 
> From: MIKE SHERMAN 
> Sent: Tuesday, September 29, 2020 5:58 PM
> To: EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG
> Subject: [EXTERNAL] Re: [PSES] electric shock from capacitor discharge
> 
> 
> Rich --
> 
>  
> 
> Are you including old CRTs as capacitors? I recall that, even with the 
> early Macs, you had to be careful to discharge the tube if you were going to 
> mess around inside.
> 
>  
> 
> Mike
> 
> > > 
> > On 09/29/2020 4:27 PM Richard Nute  > mailto:ri...@ieee.org > wrote:
> > 
> > 
> > 
> > 
> > I am interested in knowing what constructions, situations, and 
> > products where a capacitive discharge into a body could take place.
> > 
> > I am aware of the X and Y capacitors discharge at the prongs of a 
> > power plug.  I don’t immediately know of other situations or products that 
> > might discharge a capacitor into a body. 
> > 
> > I would appreciate descriptions of such discharges into a body, not 
> > conjecture.  Preferably, normal conditions and some single-fault 
> > conditions. 
> > 
> > Do we need to include capacitive discharge requirements in the 
> > safety standards?
> > 
> > Stay safe!
> > 
> > Rich
> > 
> > 
> > -
> > 
> > 
> > This message is from the IEEE Product Safety Engineering Society 
> > emc-pstc discussion list. To post a message to the list, send your e-mail 
> > to mailto:emc-p...@ieee.org >
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> > 
> > For help, send mail to the list administrators:
> > Scott Dougla

[PSES] EMF harmonised standards

[Scott Xe]

I notice EN 62311 is commonly used for electrical appliances.  For AV/ITE
products, there are 3 standards: EN 50633, EN 62311 and EN 62479 to be
used.  Is there any solid guidance to select the correct standard for the
product category?

Thanks and regards,

Scott

>

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Re: [PSES] [EXTERNAL] Re: [PSES] electric shock from capacitor discharge

[Julia Curson]

I second Ted’s comment on motor drives. The capacitor charge risk post switch 
off is usually handled with a time delayed interlock on the housing cabinet, 
along with an acrylic sheet shield or such covering to protect against 
accidental contact if the cabinet is open. And of course ubiquitous signage as 
required by the standards.

On 30 Sep 2020, at 04:22, Ted Eckert 
<07cf6ebeab9d-dmarc-requ...@listserv.ieee.org> wrote:


Hi Rich,

I can’t think of many cases of modern IT equipment with a significant risk of 
capacitance discharge through the plug. However, I could foresee motor-driven 
equipment where it could be an issue. The manufacturer might put a power factor 
correction capacitor across the line to compensate for the inductive load of 
the motor. The motor should bleed off the charge of the capacitor, but there 
may still be some residual charge when the user pulls the plug. You probably 
wouldn’t have that large of a capacitor on a plug-connected motor appliance, 
but it is possible.

It’s been more than a decade since I worked with large motor-drive appliances, 
so my memory of their workings isn’t great. I’m sure there is somebody on this 
list server who can correct any error I’ve made in my statements.

Ted Eckert
The opinions expressed are my own and do not necessarily reflect those of my 
employer.


From: MIKE SHERMAN 
Sent: Tuesday, September 29, 2020 5:58 PM
To: EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG
Subject: [EXTERNAL] Re: [PSES] electric shock from capacitor discharge

Rich --

Are you including old CRTs as capacitors? I recall that, even with the early 
Macs, you had to be careful to discharge the tube if you were going to mess 
around inside.

Mike
On 09/29/2020 4:27 PM Richard Nute mailto:ri...@ieee.org>> 
wrote:




I am interested in knowing what constructions, situations, and products where a 
capacitive discharge into a body could take place.

I am aware of the X and Y capacitors discharge at the prongs of a power plug.  
I don’t immediately know of other situations or products that might discharge a 
capacitor into a body.

I would appreciate descriptions of such discharges into a body, not conjecture. 
 Preferably, normal conditions and some single-fault conditions.

Do we need to include capacitive discharge requirements in the safety standards?

Stay safe!

Rich

-


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discussion list. To post a message to the list, send your e-

[PSES] AW: [PSES] electric shock from capacitor discharge

[Dürrer Bernd]

Hello Richard,

Please have a look at the requirements of IEC 61800-5-1, clause 4.3.11: 
“Capacitors within a PDS shall be discharged to a voltage less than 60 V, or to 
a residual charge less than 50 μC, within 5 s after the removal of power from 
the PDS. […] In the case of plugs or similar devices that can be disconnected 
without the use of a tool, the withdrawal of which results in the exposure of 
conductors (e.g. pins), the discharge time shall not exceed 1 s.” I presume 
that the longer time span of 5 s is meant for the case of equipment that is 
connected to the fixed installation and where discharge is only possible after 
opening the enclosure (e.g. for maintenance and installation). Typically, 
opening the enclosure will take a few seconds after power removal while the 
pins of the power plug are directly accessible.

Kind regards,

Bernd

Von: Richard Nute 
Gesendet: Mittwoch, 30. September 2020 00:04
An: EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG
Betreff: Re: [PSES] electric shock from capacitor discharge



Hi Lauren:

Thanks, but I recognize that many standards include such requirements.  I am 
looking for instances (other than the pins of a power plug) where such 
requirements must be invoked.

Stay safe!
Rich


From: lauren.cr...@us.tel.com 
mailto:lauren.cr...@us.tel.com>>
Sent: Tuesday, September 29, 2020 2:52 PM
To: ri...@ieee.org
Cc: EMC-PSTC@listserv.ieee.org
Subject: Re: [PSES] electric shock from capacitor discharge

Hi Rich,

Discharge requirements are already in some electrical safety standards. Not at 
my desk so recall is poor, but likely 61010 or even NFPA 79 have something 
about caps with stored energy above x joules have to discharge within N seconds 
of power off...

Cheers,
-Lauren
Sent from my mobile phone - please excuse typos, brevity, etc.

On Sep 29, 2020, at 4:27 PM, Richard Nute 
mailto:ri...@ieee.org>> wrote:


I am interested in knowing what constructions, situations, and products where a 
capacitive discharge into a body could take place.

I am aware of the X and Y capacitors discharge at the prongs of a power plug.  
I don’t immediately know of other situations or products that might discharge a 
capacitor into a body.

I would appreciate descriptions of such discharges into a body, not conjecture. 
 Preferably, normal conditions and some single-fault conditions.

Do we need to include capacitive discharge requirements in the safety standards?

Stay safe!

Rich

-


This message is from the IEEE Product Safety Engineering Society emc-pstc 
discussion list. To post a message to the list, send your e-mail to 
mailto:emc-p...@ieee.org>>

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[Fabrikam]


WILO SE
Wilopark 1, 44263 Dortmund
Amtsgericht Dortmund, HRB 21356
www.wilo.com

Vors

[PSES] AW: [PSES] Low Voltage Products and EN 62368-1 and -3

[Dürrer Bernd]

Hi Scott,

please note that Annex III of the EU LVD requires a risk analysis as part of 
the technical documentation 
(https://eur-lex.europa.eu/legal-content/EN/TXT/HTML/?uri=CELEX:32014L0035&from=EN#d1e32-370-1).
 So you may either create your own exhaustive risk analysis for your products, 
or claim compliance with the applicable product safety standard EN 62368-1, to 
demonstrate that your complete product does not present a risk and complies 
with the safety objectives of the LVD. If your products include a wireless 
interface or other radio function, it is in the scope of the RED which does not 
have a minimum voltage limit in Article 3, 1(a) 
(https://eur-lex.europa.eu/legal-content/EN/TXT/HTML/?uri=CELEX:32014L0053&from=EN#d1e975-62-1).
 Therefore, for equipment powered by extra-low voltage the RED requires 
compliance with the safety objectives of the LVD and the applicable product 
safety standards.

Kind regards,

Bernd

Von: Scott Douglas 
Gesendet: Dienstag, 29. September 2020 22:52
An: EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG
Betreff: [PSES] Low Voltage Products and EN 62368-1 and -3

Esteemed colleagues,

Question on EN 62368-1 and -3 related to low voltage products.

Products are ITE equipment with power requirement of 5v or 12v DC and less than 
4 amps, sometimes they are powered by PoE. We ship some of these products with 
an external power supply 120/230 V~ input and 5 or 12 VDC output. The EPS 
always have full certifications to normal safety standards including 62368-1. 
Other times we do not include an EPS with the product.

One of our factories is trying to tell us that under IEC/EN 62368-1 or -3, our 
products are required to have safety certifications, that having just the EPS 
certified to 62368-1 is not enough.

We have always said that since these are low voltage products (even the PoE 
ones) that safety certifications are not required for the products themselves.

Has something changed where these type products are now required to have safety 
approvals for the EU or US/Canada markets? Or since they are not directly 
connected to the AC Mains, they do not need safety approvals?

Looking for someone to either confirm my sanity or teach me a new lesson. All 
comments welcome.

Scott

-


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[Fabrikam]


WILO SE
Wilopark 1, 44263 Dortmund
Amtsgericht Dortmund, HRB 21356
www.wilo.com

Vorstand/Executive Board:
Oliver Hermes (President & CEO), Dr. Patrick Niehr, Georg Weber, Mathias Weyers
Aufsichtsratsvorsitzender/Chairman of the Supervisory Board:
Prof. Dr. Norbert Wieselhuber

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