Re: [PSES] UL 510 Flame retardant tape

[Richard Nute]

 

Hi Charlie:

 

Rather than guess:

 

https://www.kaptontape.com/PDF/Kapton_Films_Datasheet.pdf

https://www.dupont.com/content/dam/dupont/amer/us/en/products/ei-transformat
ion/documents/DEC-Kapton-HN-datasheet.pdf

https://www.dupont.com/content/dam/dupont/amer/us/en/products/ei-transformat
ion/documents/EI-10167-Kapton-General-Specifications.pdf

 

After looking at the above specs, I'm inclined to believe that Kapton tape
will provide an acceptable fire enclosure (as good as any other plastic
material).  It is tough stuff!  And relatively expensive.

 

If you are going to test it (as suggested by Ted), I suggest a side-by-side
test with the alternate fire enclosure plastic material.

 

Note that IEC 62368-1 uses IEC 60695-11-10 for flammability rating rather
than UL 94 and UL 510.  There are no specific requirements for
fire-enclosure tape.  

 

Stay safe, and best regards,

Rich

 

 

 

 

From: Charlie Blackham mailto:char...@sulisconsultants.com> > 
Sent: Friday, October 8, 2021 6:25 AM
To: EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG  
Subject: [EXTERNAL] [PSES] UL 510 Flame retardant tape

 

All

 

Various Kapton tapes are sold as Flame Retardant, some seem to reference UL
94 and others UL 510.

 

The scenario is a product falling under EN 62368-1 and the secondary lithium
battery needs a fire enclosure and rather than using the product enclosure,
one could be made for the battery using a suitable plastic or manual
application of retardant tape.

 

Is there any correlation between UL 510 and UL94 when considering creating a
Fire Enclosure for a battery as per Clause M.4.3 ?

 

 

 

Best regards

Charlie

 

Charlie Blackham

Sulis Consultants Ltd

Mead House

Longwater Road

Eversley

RG27 0NW

UK

Tel: +44 (0)7946 624317

Email:   char...@sulisconsultants.com

Web:
 https://sulisconsultants.com/ 

Registered in England and Wales, number 05466247

 


-

This message is from the IEEE Product Safety Engineering Society emc-pstc 
discussion list. To post a message to the list, send your e-mail to 


All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at:
http://www.ieee-pses.org/emc-pstc.html

Attachments are not permitted but the IEEE PSES Online Communities site at 
http://product-compliance.oc.ieee.org/ can be used for graphics (in well-used 
formats), large files, etc.

Website:  http://www.ieee-pses.org/
Instructions:  http://www.ieee-pses.org/list.html (including how to unsubscribe)
List rules: http://www.ieee-pses.org/listrules.html

For help, send mail to the list administrators:
Scott Douglas 
Mike Cantwell 

For policy questions, send mail to:
Jim Bacher:  
David Heald: 

Re: [PSES] UL 510 Flame retardant tape

[sudhakar wasnik]

This film in any form may act as a fire enclosure and other enclosure can act 
as mechanical enclosure… it is not asked to do all the enclosure function by a 
single enclosure… even though that’s how it is practiced … 

Sent from my iPhone

> On Oct 8, 2021, at 1:11 PM, Dan Roman 
> <0d75e04ed751-dmarc-requ...@ieee.org> wrote:
> 
> 
> I agree with Ted, you’ll need to try this out first.  Just because it is 
> flame retardant does not mean it will be mechanically suitable for the 
> pressures involved during a lithium battery catastrophic failure.  If the 
> enclosure is breached because it cannot physically contain the failure it 
> won’t matter what its flame rating is.
>  
> Have a good weekend everyone,
>  
> Dan
>  
>  
> From: Ted Eckert <07cf6ebeab9d-dmarc-requ...@ieee.org> 
> Sent: Friday, October 8, 2021 6:40 AM
> To: EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG
> Subject: Re: [PSES] UL 510 Flame retardant tape
>  
> Hello Charlie,
>  
> I apologize for not answering your question directly, but I would like to 
> respond based on the general intent. Kapton tape is flame resistant, but I 
> recommend that you take samples and apply a flame to see how it reacts. My 
> personal opinion is that Kapton tape won’t contribute fuel to a fire, but it 
> isn’t likely to contain it either. Thin film material might not be suitable 
> if the intent is to slow the progression of a fire to keep it from reaching 
> other flammable material.
>  
> Consider fabricating the proposed tape enclosure on a few sample batteries 
> and intentionally fault them to induce an exothermic reaction. The results 
> may give an indication whether you want to pursue this path further.
>  
> Best regards,
> Ted Eckert
>  
> The opinions expressed are my own and do not necessarily reflect those of my 
> employer or TC 108.
>  
> From: Charlie Blackham  
> Sent: Friday, October 8, 2021 6:25 AM
> To: EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG
> Subject: [EXTERNAL] [PSES] UL 510 Flame retardant tape
>  
> All
>  
> Various Kapton tapes are sold as Flame Retardant, some seem to reference UL 
> 94 and others UL 510.
>  
> The scenario is a product falling under EN 62368-1 and the secondary lithium 
> battery needs a fire enclosure and rather than using the product enclosure, 
> one could be made for the battery using a suitable plastic or manual 
> application of retardant tape.
>  
> Is there any correlation between UL 510 and UL94 when considering creating a 
> Fire Enclosure for a battery as per Clause M.4.3 ?
>  
>  
>  
> Best regards
> Charlie
>  
> Charlie Blackham
> Sulis Consultants Ltd
> Mead House
> Longwater Road
> Eversley
> RG27 0NW
> UK
> Tel: +44 (0)7946 624317
> Email: char...@sulisconsultants.com
> Web: https://sulisconsultants.com/
> Registered in England and Wales, number 05466247
>  
> -
> 
> This message is from the IEEE Product Safety Engineering Society emc-pstc 
> discussion list. To post a message to the list, send your e-mail to 
> 
> 
> All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at: 
> http://www.ieee-pses.org/emc-pstc.html
> 
> Attachments are not permitted but the IEEE PSES Online Communities site at 
> http://product-compliance.oc.ieee.org/ can be used for graphics (in well-used 
> formats), large files, etc.
> 
> Website: http://www.ieee-pses.org/
> Instructions: http://www.ieee-pses.org/list.html (including how to 
> unsubscribe)
> List rules: http://www.ieee-pses.org/listrules.html
> 
> For help, send mail to the list administrators:
> Scott Douglas 
> Mike Cantwell 
> 
> For policy questions, send mail to:
> Jim Bacher 
> David Heald 
> 
> -
> 
> This message is from the IEEE Product Safety Engineering Society emc-pstc 
> discussion list. To post a message to the list, send your e-mail to 
> 
> 
> All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at: 
> http://www.ieee-pses.org/emc-pstc.html
> 
> Attachments are not permitted but the IEEE PSES Online Communities site at 
> http://product-compliance.oc.ieee.org/ can be used for graphics (in well-used 
> formats), large files, etc.
> 
> Website: http://www.ieee-pses.org/
> Instructions: http://www.ieee-pses.org/list.html (including how to 
> unsubscribe)
> List rules: http://www.ieee-pses.org/listrules.html
> 
> For help, send mail to the list administrators:
> Scott Douglas 
> Mike Cantwell 
> 
> For policy questions, send mail to:
> Jim Bacher 
> David Heald 
> 
> -
> 
> This message is from the IEEE Product Safety Engineering Society emc-pstc 
> discussion list. To post a message to the list, send your e-mail to 
> 
> 
> All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at: 
> http://www.ieee-pses.org/emc-pstc.html
> 
> Attachments are not permitted but the IEEE PSES Online Communities site at 
> http://product-compliance.oc.ieee.org/ can be used 

Re: [PSES] UL 510 Flame retardant tape

[Dan Roman]

I agree with Ted, you'll need to try this out first.  Just because it is
flame retardant does not mean it will be mechanically suitable for the
pressures involved during a lithium battery catastrophic failure.  If the
enclosure is breached because it cannot physically contain the failure it
won't matter what its flame rating is.

 

Have a good weekend everyone,

 

Dan

 

 

From: Ted Eckert <07cf6ebeab9d-dmarc-requ...@ieee.org
 > 
Sent: Friday, October 8, 2021 6:40 AM
To: EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG  
Subject: Re: [PSES] UL 510 Flame retardant tape

 

Hello Charlie,

 

I apologize for not answering your question directly, but I would like to
respond based on the general intent. Kapton tape is flame resistant, but I
recommend that you take samples and apply a flame to see how it reacts. My
personal opinion is that Kapton tape won't contribute fuel to a fire, but it
isn't likely to contain it either. Thin film material might not be suitable
if the intent is to slow the progression of a fire to keep it from reaching
other flammable material. 

 

Consider fabricating the proposed tape enclosure on a few sample batteries
and intentionally fault them to induce an exothermic reaction. The results
may give an indication whether you want to pursue this path further.

 

Best regards,

Ted Eckert

 

The opinions expressed are my own and do not necessarily reflect those of my
employer or TC 108.

 

From: Charlie Blackham mailto:char...@sulisconsultants.com> > 
Sent: Friday, October 8, 2021 6:25 AM
To: EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG  
Subject: [EXTERNAL] [PSES] UL 510 Flame retardant tape

 

All

 

Various Kapton tapes are sold as Flame Retardant, some seem to reference UL
94 and others UL 510.

 

The scenario is a product falling under EN 62368-1 and the secondary lithium
battery needs a fire enclosure and rather than using the product enclosure,
one could be made for the battery using a suitable plastic or manual
application of retardant tape.

 

Is there any correlation between UL 510 and UL94 when considering creating a
Fire Enclosure for a battery as per Clause M.4.3 ?

 

 

 

Best regards

Charlie

 

Charlie Blackham

Sulis Consultants Ltd

Mead House

Longwater Road

Eversley

RG27 0NW

UK

Tel: +44 (0)7946 624317

Email:   char...@sulisconsultants.com

Web:
 https://sulisconsultants.com/ 

Registered in England and Wales, number 05466247

 

-


This message is from the IEEE Product Safety Engineering Society emc-pstc
discussion list. To post a message to the list, send your e-mail to
mailto:emc-p...@ieee.org> >

All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at:
http://www.ieee-pses.org/emc-pstc.html
 

Attachments are not permitted but the IEEE PSES Online Communities site at
http://product-compliance.oc.ieee.org/
  can be used for graphics (in well-used formats),
large files, etc.

Website: http://www.ieee-pses.org/
 
Instructions: http://www.ieee-pses.org/list.html (including how to
unsubscribe)

Re: [PSES] UL 510 Flame retardant tape

[Gary Tornquist]

Another thin material to consider is Nomex.  Good fire retardard properties,
but likely thicker and more expensive than Kapton tape.

 

Cheers,
Gary Tornquist

 

The opinions expressed are my own.

From: Ted Eckert <07cf6ebeab9d-dmarc-requ...@ieee.org> 
Sent: Friday, October 8, 2021 6:40 AM
To: EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG
Subject: Re: [PSES] UL 510 Flame retardant tape

 

Hello Charlie,

 

I apologize for not answering your question directly, but I would like to
respond based on the general intent. Kapton tape is flame resistant, but I
recommend that you take samples and apply a flame to see how it reacts. My
personal opinion is that Kapton tape won't contribute fuel to a fire, but it
isn't likely to contain it either. Thin film material might not be suitable
if the intent is to slow the progression of a fire to keep it from reaching
other flammable material. 

 

Consider fabricating the proposed tape enclosure on a few sample batteries
and intentionally fault them to induce an exothermic reaction. The results
may give an indication whether you want to pursue this path further.

 

Best regards,

Ted Eckert

 

The opinions expressed are my own and do not necessarily reflect those of my
employer or TC 108.

 

From: Charlie Blackham mailto:char...@sulisconsultants.com> > 
Sent: Friday, October 8, 2021 6:25 AM
To: EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG  
Subject: [EXTERNAL] [PSES] UL 510 Flame retardant tape

 

All

 

Various Kapton tapes are sold as Flame Retardant, some seem to reference UL
94 and others UL 510.

 

The scenario is a product falling under EN 62368-1 and the secondary lithium
battery needs a fire enclosure and rather than using the product enclosure,
one could be made for the battery using a suitable plastic or manual
application of retardant tape.

 

Is there any correlation between UL 510 and UL94 when considering creating a
Fire Enclosure for a battery as per Clause M.4.3 ?

 

 

 

Best regards

Charlie

 

Charlie Blackham

Sulis Consultants Ltd

Mead House

Longwater Road

Eversley

RG27 0NW

UK

Tel: +44 (0)7946 624317

Email:   char...@sulisconsultants.com

Web:
 https://sulisconsultants.com/ 

Registered in England and Wales, number 05466247

 

-


This message is from the IEEE Product Safety Engineering Society emc-pstc
discussion list. To post a message to the list, send your e-mail to
mailto:emc-p...@ieee.org> >

All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at:
http://www.ieee-pses.org/emc-pstc.html
 

Attachments are not permitted but the IEEE PSES Online Communities site at
http://product-compliance.oc.ieee.org/
  can be used for graphics (in well-used formats),
large files, etc.

Website: http://www.ieee-pses.org/
 
Instructions: http://www.ieee-pses.org/list.html (including how to
unsubscribe)
 
List rules: http://www.ieee-pses.org/listrules.html

Re: [PSES] UL 510 Flame retardant tape

[Douglas E Powell]

Charlie,

Kapton is a Dupont registered trademark for polyimide film (not polyamide
which is nylon).  Uncertain, you can construct an enclosure with this.

However, I have seen the use of machined or molded blocks of polyimide
(Ultem™ 1000, Sabic) because of its nice flammability, thermal ratings and
good dielectric strength.  And here were a few drawbacks.  One was chemical
compatibility, it reacted to certain solvents which embrittled the
material and the use of torqued fasteners which caused corners to cleave
off.  One other concern, as an insulator, polyimide generally has a
tracking index of CTI IIIa, b rating (UL 746, PLC 4), so you will have to
account for that if you are evaluating creepage distances. Of course,
depending on your exact selection of the material, your mileage may vary.

Ref.: http://www.matweb.com/search/QuickText.aspx?SearchText=ultem

-Doug


Douglas E Powell
Laporte, Colorado USA
doug...@gmail.com
http://www.linkedin.com/in/dougp01



On Fri, Oct 8, 2021 at 7:25 AM Charlie Blackham <
char...@sulisconsultants.com> wrote:

> All
>
>
>
> Various Kapton tapes are sold as Flame Retardant, some seem to reference
> UL 94 and others UL 510.
>
>
>
> The scenario is a product falling under EN 62368-1 and the secondary
> lithium battery needs a fire enclosure and rather than using the product
> enclosure, one could be made for the battery using a suitable plastic or
> manual application of retardant tape.
>
>
>
> Is there any correlation between UL 510 and UL94 when considering creating
> a Fire Enclosure for a battery as per Clause M.4.3 ?
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> Best regards
>
> Charlie
>
>
>
> *Charlie Blackham*
>
> *Sulis Consultants Ltd*
>
> *Mead House*
>
> *Longwater Road*
>
> *Eversley*
>
> *RG27 0NW*
>
> *UK*
>
> *Tel: +44 (0)7946 624317*
>
> *Email: char...@sulisconsultants.com *
>
> *Web: https://sulisconsultants.com/  *
>
> Registered in England and Wales, number 05466247
>
>
> -
> 
>
> This message is from the IEEE Product Safety Engineering Society emc-pstc
> discussion list. To post a message to the list, send your e-mail to 
> emc-p...@ieee.org
>
> All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at:
> http://www.ieee-pses.org/emc-pstc.html
>
> Attachments are not permitted but the IEEE PSES Online Communities site at
> http://product-compliance.oc.ieee.org/ can be used for graphics (in
> well-used formats), large files, etc.
>
> Website: http://www.ieee-pses.org/
> Instructions: http://www.ieee-pses.org/list.html (including how to
> unsubscribe) 
> List rules: http://www.ieee-pses.org/listrules.html
>
> For help, send mail to the list administrators:
> Scott Douglas sdoug...@ieee.org
> Mike Cantwell mcantw...@ieee.org
>
> For policy questions, send mail to:
> Jim Bacher j.bac...@ieee.org
> David Heald dhe...@gmail.com
>

-

This message is from the IEEE Product Safety Engineering Society emc-pstc 
discussion list. To post a message to the list, send your e-mail to 


All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at:
http://www.ieee-pses.org/emc-pstc.html

Attachments are not permitted but the IEEE PSES Online Communities site at 
http://product-compliance.oc.ieee.org/ can be used for graphics (in well-used 
formats), large files, etc.

Website:  http://www.ieee-pses.org/
Instructions:  http://www.ieee-pses.org/list.html (including how to unsubscribe)
List rules: http://www.ieee-pses.org/listrules.html

For help, send mail to the list administrators:
Scott Douglas 
Mike Cantwell 

For policy questions, send mail to:
Jim Bacher:  
David Heald: 

Re: [PSES] UL 510 Flame retardant tape

[Ted Eckert]

Hello Charlie,

I apologize for not answering your question directly, but I would like to 
respond based on the general intent. Kapton tape is flame resistant, but I 
recommend that you take samples and apply a flame to see how it reacts. My 
personal opinion is that Kapton tape won't contribute fuel to a fire, but it 
isn't likely to contain it either. Thin film material might not be suitable if 
the intent is to slow the progression of a fire to keep it from reaching other 
flammable material.

Consider fabricating the proposed tape enclosure on a few sample batteries and 
intentionally fault them to induce an exothermic reaction. The results may give 
an indication whether you want to pursue this path further.

Best regards,
Ted Eckert

The opinions expressed are my own and do not necessarily reflect those of my 
employer or TC 108.

From: Charlie Blackham 
Sent: Friday, October 8, 2021 6:25 AM
To: EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG
Subject: [EXTERNAL] [PSES] UL 510 Flame retardant tape

All

Various Kapton tapes are sold as Flame Retardant, some seem to reference UL 94 
and others UL 510.

The scenario is a product falling under EN 62368-1 and the secondary lithium 
battery needs a fire enclosure and rather than using the product enclosure, one 
could be made for the battery using a suitable plastic or manual application of 
retardant tape.

Is there any correlation between UL 510 and UL94 when considering creating a 
Fire Enclosure for a battery as per Clause M.4.3 ?



Best regards
Charlie

Charlie Blackham
Sulis Consultants Ltd
Mead House
Longwater Road
Eversley
RG27 0NW
UK
Tel: +44 (0)7946 624317
Email: char...@sulisconsultants.com
Web: 
https://sulisconsultants.com/
Registered in England and Wales, number 05466247

-


This message is from the IEEE Product Safety Engineering Society emc-pstc 
discussion list. To post a message to the list, send your e-mail to 
mailto:emc-p...@ieee.org>>

All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at: 
http://www.ieee-pses.org/emc-pstc.html

Attachments are not permitted but the IEEE PSES Online Communities site at 
http://product-compliance.oc.ieee.org/
 can be used for graphics (in well-used formats), large files, etc.

Website: 
http://www.ieee-pses.org/
Instructions: http://www.ieee-pses.org/list.html (including how to 
unsubscribe)
List rules: 
http://www.ieee-pses.org/listrules.html

For help, send mail to the list administrators:
Scott Douglas mailto:sdoug...@ieee.org>>
Mike Cantwell mailto:mcantw...@ieee.org>>

For policy questions, send mail to:
Jim Bacher mailto:j.bac...@ieee.org>>
David Heald 

[PSES] UL 510 Flame retardant tape

[Charlie Blackham]

All

Various Kapton tapes are sold as Flame Retardant, some seem to reference UL 94 
and others UL 510.

The scenario is a product falling under EN 62368-1 and the secondary lithium 
battery needs a fire enclosure and rather than using the product enclosure, one 
could be made for the battery using a suitable plastic or manual application of 
retardant tape.

Is there any correlation between UL 510 and UL94 when considering creating a 
Fire Enclosure for a battery as per Clause M.4.3 ?



Best regards
Charlie

Charlie Blackham
Sulis Consultants Ltd
Mead House
Longwater Road
Eversley
RG27 0NW
UK
Tel: +44 (0)7946 624317
Email: char...@sulisconsultants.com
Web: https://sulisconsultants.com/
Registered in England and Wales, number 05466247


-

This message is from the IEEE Product Safety Engineering Society emc-pstc 
discussion list. To post a message to the list, send your e-mail to 


All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at:
http://www.ieee-pses.org/emc-pstc.html

Attachments are not permitted but the IEEE PSES Online Communities site at 
http://product-compliance.oc.ieee.org/ can be used for graphics (in well-used 
formats), large files, etc.

Website:  http://www.ieee-pses.org/
Instructions:  http://www.ieee-pses.org/list.html (including how to unsubscribe)
List rules: http://www.ieee-pses.org/listrules.html

For help, send mail to the list administrators:
Scott Douglas 
Mike Cantwell 

For policy questions, send mail to:
Jim Bacher:  
David Heald: