Re: [PSES] unusual conducted emissions question

2021-12-09 Thread Heckrotte, Michael 
Hi Doug,

Consider using a voltage probe instead of a LISN.


Best Regards,
Mike

From: doug emcesd.com 
Sent: Thursday, December 09, 2021 8:02 PM
To: EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG
Subject: Re: [PSES] unusual conducted emissions question

There is a device between us and the electrical system that does the power 
cycling. We have no control over that device, part of the vehicle.

Doug Smith
Sent from my iPhone
IPhone: 408-858-4528
Office: 702-570-6108
Email: d...@dsmith.org
Website: http://dsmith.org

From: Ken Javor 
mailto:ken.ja...@emccompliance.com>>
Sent: Thursday, December 9, 2021 7:55:05 PM
To: EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG 
mailto:EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG>>
Subject: Re: [PSES] unusual conducted emissions question

The purpose of a LISN when testing for vehicular use is to simulate the common 
impedance between battery and fuse block.

There should be no power cycling "behind" the LISN, because in the vehicle 
there is no switch between battery and fuse block other than the ignition 
switch itself.

Therefore the power cycling device goes between the LISN output and the 
switched load.

Ken Javor
Phone: (256) 650-5261


From: Douglas Smith 
https://nam12.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Furldefense.proofpoint.com%2Fv2%2Furl%3Fu%3Dhttp-3A__doug-40emcesd.com%26d%3DDwMFAw%26c%3DeuGZstcaTDllvimEN8b7jXrwqOf-v5A_CdpgnVfiiMM%26r%3Dc9NR2mGfldry-2pM9Bbuww%26m%3DkavBu9H9umaS2l7Zwzp81cdwEgTt9UJa3f56hflvA8A%26s%3DOVcQCPr1r2j4G99wMQoHdTA8Uh-Ecshq2eAiFJgY7Xc%26e%3D=04%7C01%7CMichael.Heckrotte%40ul.com%7C5f29f8ee022b49784e3d08d9bb91dbde%7C701159540ccd45f087bd03b2a3587569%7C0%7C1%7C637747057402236273%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C3000=Ea4uM5EdyfZpe6hQgjdbg6wDj9g6Cz0YdqkTgcjSW30%3D=0>>
Reply-To: Douglas Smith 
https://nam12.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Furldefense.proofpoint.com%2Fv2%2Furl%3Fu%3Dhttp-3A__doug-40emcesd.com%26d%3DDwMFAw%26c%3DeuGZstcaTDllvimEN8b7jXrwqOf-v5A_CdpgnVfiiMM%26r%3Dc9NR2mGfldry-2pM9Bbuww%26m%3DkavBu9H9umaS2l7Zwzp81cdwEgTt9UJa3f56hflvA8A%26s%3DOVcQCPr1r2j4G99wMQoHdTA8Uh-Ecshq2eAiFJgY7Xc%26e%3D=04%7C01%7CMichael.Heckrotte%40ul.com%7C5f29f8ee022b49784e3d08d9bb91dbde%7C701159540ccd45f087bd03b2a3587569%7C0%7C1%7C637747057402236273%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C3000=Ea4uM5EdyfZpe6hQgjdbg6wDj9g6Cz0YdqkTgcjSW30%3D=0>>
Date: Fri, 10 Dec 2021 00:16:51 +
To: 
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Subject: [PSES] unusual conducted emissions question

Hi All,

I have come across an unusual conducted emissions issue with a device where the 
impedance stabilization network for automotive testing itself causes a problem 
that will not let a class of equipment ever pass because of the network not the 
equipment itself.

In this case,  the power is cycled every second and the device that does that 
is behind the network as that is not being tested. The interrupted power goes 
through the network (12 Volts) and to the EUT. We got to the point where we 
replace the EUT with a DC load, 10 Ohm resistor in parallel with a 10 uF cap, 
to simulate the inrush current. That combination fails at the low end of the 
frequency spectrum a lot because the network, just a collection of L, C, and R 
is ringing at each power transition.

Any thoughts? Seems like an artifact of the standard. The device cycling power 
is a lab circuit and not part of the test and so should be behind the network.

Doug
[cid:image001.jpg@01D7ED39.E71F5CB0]

-


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discussion list. To post a message to the list, send your e-mail to

Re: [PSES] unusual conducted emissions question

2021-12-09 Thread doug emcesd.com 
There is a device between us and the electrical system that does the power 
cycling. We have no control over that device, part of the vehicle.

Doug Smith
Sent from my iPhone
IPhone: 408-858-4528
Office: 702-570-6108
Email: d...@dsmith.org
Website: http://dsmith.org

From: Ken Javor 
Sent: Thursday, December 9, 2021 7:55:05 PM
To: EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG 
Subject: Re: [PSES] unusual conducted emissions question

The purpose of a LISN when testing for vehicular use is to simulate the common 
impedance between battery and fuse block.

There should be no power cycling “behind” the LISN, because in the vehicle 
there is no switch between battery and fuse block other than the ignition 
switch itself.

Therefore the power cycling device goes between the LISN output and the 
switched load.

Ken Javor
Phone: (256) 650-5261



From: Douglas Smith 
https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=http-3A__doug-40emcesd.com=DwMFAw=euGZstcaTDllvimEN8b7jXrwqOf-v5A_CdpgnVfiiMM=c9NR2mGfldry-2pM9Bbuww=kavBu9H9umaS2l7Zwzp81cdwEgTt9UJa3f56hflvA8A=OVcQCPr1r2j4G99wMQoHdTA8Uh-Ecshq2eAiFJgY7Xc=>>
Reply-To: Douglas Smith 
https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=http-3A__doug-40emcesd.com=DwMFAw=euGZstcaTDllvimEN8b7jXrwqOf-v5A_CdpgnVfiiMM=c9NR2mGfldry-2pM9Bbuww=kavBu9H9umaS2l7Zwzp81cdwEgTt9UJa3f56hflvA8A=OVcQCPr1r2j4G99wMQoHdTA8Uh-Ecshq2eAiFJgY7Xc=>>
Date: Fri, 10 Dec 2021 00:16:51 +
To: 
https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=http-3A__EMC-2DPSTC-40LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG=DwMFAw=euGZstcaTDllvimEN8b7jXrwqOf-v5A_CdpgnVfiiMM=c9NR2mGfldry-2pM9Bbuww=kavBu9H9umaS2l7Zwzp81cdwEgTt9UJa3f56hflvA8A=RMadKU3rlYA8dxMrL249JcSU5tJZbNiPKINvJSO5bwo=>>
Subject: [PSES] unusual conducted emissions question

Hi All,

I have come across an unusual conducted emissions issue with a device where the 
impedance stabilization network for automotive testing itself causes a problem 
that will not let a class of equipment ever pass because of the network not the 
equipment itself.

In this case,  the power is cycled every second and the device that does that 
is behind the network as that is not being tested. The interrupted power goes 
through the network (12 Volts) and to the EUT. We got to the point where we 
replace the EUT with a DC load, 10 Ohm resistor in parallel with a 10 uF cap, 
to simulate the inrush current. That combination fails at the low end of the 
frequency spectrum a lot because the network, just a collection of L, C, and R 
is ringing at each power transition.

Any thoughts? Seems like an artifact of the standard. The device cycling power 
is a lab circuit and not part of the test and so should be behind the network.

Doug
[cid:3721931705_1385162]

-


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Re: [PSES] unusual conducted emissions question

2021-12-09 Thread doug emcesd.com 
Not a car. The power to our EUT is cycled by a a device. To put it on the other 
side of the LISN  would not mean much as we have no control of that device. And 
even if we did that, the continuous interruption of the DC current would still 
send the LISN into oscillation at each current edge.

Doug Smith
Sent from my iPhone
IPhone: 408-858-4528
Office: 702-570-6108
Email: d...@dsmith.org
Website: http://dsmith.org

From: Ken Javor 
Sent: Thursday, December 9, 2021 7:55:05 PM
To: EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG 
Subject: Re: [PSES] unusual conducted emissions question

The purpose of a LISN when testing for vehicular use is to simulate the common 
impedance between battery and fuse block.

There should be no power cycling “behind” the LISN, because in the vehicle 
there is no switch between battery and fuse block other than the ignition 
switch itself.

Therefore the power cycling device goes between the LISN output and the 
switched load.

Ken Javor
Phone: (256) 650-5261



From: Douglas Smith 
https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=http-3A__doug-40emcesd.com=DwMFAw=euGZstcaTDllvimEN8b7jXrwqOf-v5A_CdpgnVfiiMM=c9NR2mGfldry-2pM9Bbuww=kavBu9H9umaS2l7Zwzp81cdwEgTt9UJa3f56hflvA8A=OVcQCPr1r2j4G99wMQoHdTA8Uh-Ecshq2eAiFJgY7Xc=>>
Reply-To: Douglas Smith 
https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=http-3A__doug-40emcesd.com=DwMFAw=euGZstcaTDllvimEN8b7jXrwqOf-v5A_CdpgnVfiiMM=c9NR2mGfldry-2pM9Bbuww=kavBu9H9umaS2l7Zwzp81cdwEgTt9UJa3f56hflvA8A=OVcQCPr1r2j4G99wMQoHdTA8Uh-Ecshq2eAiFJgY7Xc=>>
Date: Fri, 10 Dec 2021 00:16:51 +
To: 
https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=http-3A__EMC-2DPSTC-40LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG=DwMFAw=euGZstcaTDllvimEN8b7jXrwqOf-v5A_CdpgnVfiiMM=c9NR2mGfldry-2pM9Bbuww=kavBu9H9umaS2l7Zwzp81cdwEgTt9UJa3f56hflvA8A=RMadKU3rlYA8dxMrL249JcSU5tJZbNiPKINvJSO5bwo=>>
Subject: [PSES] unusual conducted emissions question

Hi All,

I have come across an unusual conducted emissions issue with a device where the 
impedance stabilization network for automotive testing itself causes a problem 
that will not let a class of equipment ever pass because of the network not the 
equipment itself.

In this case,  the power is cycled every second and the device that does that 
is behind the network as that is not being tested. The interrupted power goes 
through the network (12 Volts) and to the EUT. We got to the point where we 
replace the EUT with a DC load, 10 Ohm resistor in parallel with a 10 uF cap, 
to simulate the inrush current. That combination fails at the low end of the 
frequency spectrum a lot because the network, just a collection of L, C, and R 
is ringing at each power transition.

Any thoughts? Seems like an artifact of the standard. The device cycling power 
is a lab circuit and not part of the test and so should be behind the network.

Doug
[cid:3721931705_1385162]

-


This message is from the IEEE Product Safety Engineering Society emc-pstc 
discussion list. To post a message to the list, send your e-mail to 
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 can be used for graphics (in well-used formats), large files, etc.

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Instructions:  
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Re: [PSES] unusual conducted emissions question

2021-12-09 Thread Ken Javor 
The purpose of a LISN when testing for vehicular use is to simulate the
common impedance between battery and fuse block.

There should be no power cycling ³behind² the LISN, because in the vehicle
there is no switch between battery and fuse block other than the ignition
switch itself.  

Therefore the power cycling device goes between the LISN output and the
switched load.

Ken Javor
Phone: (256) 650-5261



From: Douglas Smith 
Reply-To: Douglas Smith 
Date: Fri, 10 Dec 2021 00:16:51 +
To: 
Subject: [PSES] unusual conducted emissions question

Hi All,
 
I have come across an unusual conducted emissions issue with a device where
the impedance stabilization network for automotive testing itself causes a
problem that will not let a class of equipment ever pass because of the
network not the equipment itself.
 
In this case,  the power is cycled every second and the device that does
that is behind the network as that is not being tested. The interrupted
power goes through the network (12 Volts) and to the EUT. We got to the
point where we replace the EUT with a DC load, 10 Ohm resistor in parallel
with a 10 uF cap, to simulate the inrush current. That combination fails at
the low end of the frequency spectrum a lot because the network, just a
collection of L, C, and R is ringing at each power transition.
 
Any thoughts? Seems like an artifact of the standard. The device cycling
power is a lab circuit and not part of the test and so should be behind the
network.
 
Doug

 
-


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discussion list. To post a message to the list, send your e-mail to


All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at:
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well-used formats), large files, etc.

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Scott Douglas 
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[PSES] unusual conducted emissions question

2021-12-09 Thread doug emcesd.com 
Hi All,

I have come across an unusual conducted emissions issue with a device where the 
impedance stabilization network for automotive testing itself causes a problem 
that will not let a class of equipment ever pass because of the network not the 
equipment itself.

In this case,  the power is cycled every second and the device that does that 
is behind the network as that is not being tested. The interrupted power goes 
through the network (12 Volts) and to the EUT. We got to the point where we 
replace the EUT with a DC load, 10 Ohm resistor in parallel with a 10 uF cap, 
to simulate the inrush current. That combination fails at the low end of the 
frequency spectrum a lot because the network, just a collection of L, C, and R 
is ringing at each power transition.

Any thoughts? Seems like an artifact of the standard. The device cycling power 
is a lab circuit and not part of the test and so should be behind the network.

Doug
[cid:image001.jpg@01D7ED18.2C067E20]


-

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discussion list. To post a message to the list, send your e-mail to 


All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at:
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Attachments are not permitted but the IEEE PSES Online Communities site at 
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formats), large files, etc.

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For help, send mail to the list administrators:
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Mike Cantwell 

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David Heald: