Re: [PSES] Vehicle Chargers

[John Woodgate]

These are UL standards?

==
Best wishes John Woodgate OOO-Own Opinions Only
www.woodjohn.uk
Rayleigh, Essex UK

I hear, and I forget. I see, and I remember. I do, and I understand. 
Xunzi (340 - 245 BC)



On 2023-05-16 23:39, Brian Gregory wrote:

 As in EV chargers.
Just started a new gig, and I'm back in compliance.
Looking for info on testing & compliance to the applicable standards: 
2202, 2231, and an exciting new concept that might require 9741 or 916.
Please advise if this is off scope for what's titled an EMC ListServe, 
but my experience is that y'all cast a wide net :-)

"Colorado" Brian
720-450-4933
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[PSES] Vehicle Chargers

[Brian Gregory]

 As in EV chargers. Just started a new gig, and I'm back in compliance.Looking 
for info on testing & compliance to the applicable standards: 2202, 2231, and 
an exciting new concept that might require 9741 or 916. Please advise if this 
is off scope for what's titled an EMC ListServe, but my experience is that 
y'all cast a wide net :-)  "Colorado" Brian 
720-450-4933

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Re: [PSES] EN/IEC 61010-1 insulation question

[Richard Nute]

 

 

Hi James:

 

On further consideration, the standard’s “NOTE” following 6.7.3.1 is incorrect. 
 When a hi-pot test is done on the primary (mains) circuit, the voltage 
(attenuated) will also appear (where it can) in secondary circuits due to the 
capacitance to the primary circuits.  In other words, the primary circuit 
hi-pot test tests all possible insulations, whether primary or secondary.  

 

Of course, the standard requires hi-pot tests of the secondary circuits 
regardless of my assertion.  

 

Best regards,

Rich

 

 

From: James Pawson (U3C)  
Sent: Tuesday, May 16, 2023 11:08 AM
To: EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG; Richard Nute 
Subject: Re: [PSES] EN/IEC 61010-1 insulation question

 

Thanks Richard! 



 Richard Nute wrote 

 

Hi James:

 

My answers to your questions:

 

1.  Does 6.7.3   apply for the clearance between the secondary 
winding and earth as indicated?

Yes.  

2.  If NO to 1) then what parts should this insulation be between? 
3.  If YES to 1) then:

a.  what is the safety hazard that is being addressed by applying Basic 
insulation values from Table 6 here?

The standard’s assumption is that transient voltages do appear in secondary 
circuits.  See NOTE following 6.7.3.1  .  A transient voltage 
can cause a clearance or creepage to fail.  Solid insulation is required to 
have suitable electric strength to withstand the transient voltage. 

b.  Why isn’t this shown on Figure D.1e) as being required?

I assume that the figures are either insulation in general, including 
clearances (air insulation) or just for solid insulation.  

4.  If the working voltage between terminals X and Y in the sketch is less 
than the Hazardous Live thresholds in 6.3.1   then it is be 
permitted to be present on an Acccessible external terminal, correct?

Yes.

5.  Earthing either end of this winding will make 6.7.3   
redundant, correct?

I wouldn’t describe the requirement as “redundant.”  If one end of the winding 
is connected to earth, then clearly the clearance and creepage requirements do 
not apply to that one terminal.  However, the other terminal still must meet 
the clearance and creepage requirement.  

 

The standard seems not clear as to whether clearance (air insulation) is 
considered as insulation or a separate parameter.  

 

Note that the values for creepage distance are based on rated voltage, not 
transient voltage.  This is because failure of a creepage is caused by a 
long-term voltage.  However, physically, a creepage cannot be less than a 
clearance.   

 

Good luck,

Rich

 

 


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Re: [PSES] EN/IEC 61010-1 insulation question

[James Pawson (U3C)]

Thanks Richard! 

 Richard Nute wrote 

> 
>
>Hi James:
>
> 
>
>My answers to your questions:
>
> 
>
>1. Does 6.7.3 apply for the clearance between the secondary winding and
>earth as indicated?
>
>Yes.  
>
>2. If NO to 1) then what parts should this insulation be between? 
>3. If YES to 1) then:
>
>a. what is the safety hazard that is being addressed by applying Basic
>insulation values from Table 6 here?
>
>The standard's assumption is that transient voltages do appear in secondary
>circuits.  See NOTE following 6.7.3.1.  A transient voltage can cause a
>clearance or creepage to fail.  Solid insulation is required to have
>suitable electric strength to withstand the transient voltage. 
>
>b. Why isn't this shown on Figure D.1e) as being required?
>
>I assume that the figures are either insulation in general, including
>clearances (air insulation) or just for solid insulation.  
>
>4. If the working voltage between terminals X and Y in the sketch is
>less than the Hazardous Live thresholds in 6.3.1 then it is be permitted to
>be present on an Acccessible external terminal, correct?
>
>Yes.
>
>5. Earthing either end of this winding will make 6.7.3 redundant,
>correct?
>
>I wouldn't describe the requirement as "redundant."  If one end of the
>winding is connected to earth, then clearly the clearance and creepage
>requirements do not apply to that one terminal.  However, the other terminal
>still must meet the clearance and creepage requirement.  
>
> 
>
>The standard seems not clear as to whether clearance (air insulation) is
>considered as insulation or a separate parameter.  
>
> 
>
>Note that the values for creepage distance are based on rated voltage, not
>transient voltage.  This is because failure of a creepage is caused by a
>long-term voltage.  However, physically, a creepage cannot be less than a
>clearance.   
>
> 
>
>Good luck,
>
>Rich
>
> 
>
> 
>
>
>-
>
>This message is from the IEEE Product Safety Engineering Society emc-pstc 
>discussion list. To post a message to the list, send your e-mail to 
>
>
>All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at:
>http://www.ieee-pses.org/emc-pstc.html
>
>Website:  http://www.ieee-pses.org/
>Instructions:  http://www.ieee-pses.org/list.html (including how to 
>unsubscribe)
>List rules: http://www.ieee-pses.org/listrules.html
>
>For help, send mail to the list administrators:
>Mike Cantwell 
>
>For policy questions, send mail to:
>Jim Bacher:  
>David Heald: 
>_
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Re: [PSES] Power cords

[Don Gies]

Hi Steve, how have you been?

It sounds like the ratings label should have both an input rating, with the 
voltage and maximum allowable total load that the system will see (in either 
amperes or watts), and output ratings for each outlet.

If the outlets are some sort of dedicated connections, then you would only need 
the input rating.

The LOTO breakers are just Listed molded-case circuit breakers that you can 
stick a lock on.

Hope this helps.


Don Gies
Gutor Field Service Engineer
Equipment & Transformers
Energy Management Business
Schneider Electric
M  +1 346 313 6216
E  donald.g...@se.com
17 Capitol Reef Road
Howell, NJ  07731
United States








Internal
From: MIKE SHERMAN 
Sent: Monday, May 15, 2023 18:07
To: EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG
Subject: Re: [PSES] Power cords


[External email: Use caution with links and attachments]




Steve --

Fun questions!

(I am a person with documented tendencies to not take the trouble to go to a 
breaker panel to find and disconnect the correct breaker, so I may be taking a 
different approach here...)

Nameplate
I regard the nameplate as information for the installing electrician on how to 
size the facility breaker and the wiring to the equipment (ceiling panel). So I 
agree with your approach, from what I understand from your description.

Labels and LOTO
I would explore, with your client, any incentives for the user to simply 
disconnect the power cord for a single subsystem from the ceiling panel to work 
on that subsystem, so that the entire system would not have to be taken down 
and restarted. If that seems reasonably foreseeable, you may need additional 
risk mitigations beyond what you propose.

Good to see you at ISPCE, too!

Mike Sherman
Sherman PSC LLC


On 05/15/2023 6:25 PM CDT Steve Brody 
mailto:sgbr...@comcast.net>> wrote:


Experts.

First, it was good to see those who were at ISPCE in Dallas.

Back to the question at hand, and a proposed solution.  But I still request ay 
comments/inputs.

I have a client who makes products to their customer's requirements.  The end 
product includes several products, sub-systems, that work together in the end 
product to perform the intended task.

Each of the subsystems has its own power cord that plugs into an outlet in a 
ceiling panel which has an outlet for each of the sub-systems.

Power to the ceiling panel is derived from a single facility panel that has a 
LOTO breaker.

It is my thought that the following should be done:

  *   The system nameplate current rating should be inclusive of all 
sub-systems and system power
  *   that there be a label adjacent to the nameplate indicating that there are 
'x' number of power cords, and that the disconnect for the systems the facility 
panel number
Thoughts?

Thanks in advance,

Steve Brody
sgbr...@comcast.net
C - 603 617 9116
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