Re: [PSES] Is a Notified Body really needed to assess electrical safety for a 12VDC RTTE device?
Dear Group, Some correction is needed here. Notified body involvement is mandatory when harmonized standards can not be used or are not available for the equipment at hand. Or if the manufacturer wants to use its own testing routine. In all these cases the NB needs to assess the equipment against the essential requirements (annex IV). Self declaration is only allowed if all applicable harmonized standards are being (fully) followed. Kind regards, Willem Jan Jong Manager Product Certification Telefication From: emc-p...@ieee.org [mailto:emc-p...@ieee.org] On Behalf Of ce-test, qualified testing bv - Gert Gremmen Sent: zaterdag, 22 juni, 2013 4:20 PM To: Crane, Lauren; EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG Subject: RE: Is a Notified Body really needed to assess electrical safety for a 12VDC RTTE device? Hi Lauren, As far as my understanding goes, without any further study regarding your arguments, I remember that for NO RTTED equipment a NoBo is mandatory. Said differently, the intention of the RTTED has always been (and I was always learned ) that the manufacturers declaration is sufficient for all. NoBo's are mandatory for some machines, medical equipment class 2 and higher and a number of other directives that cover high risk equipment. The same is true for the EMCD and the LVD. In general the tendency in Europe is to reduce the role of the NoBo's. The fault you make in my view, is that you state that the product is not in the scope of the LVD (12V), so you need to apply annex III, IV or V (instead of II, IV or V), but as the voltage requirement is removed, all equipment falls in the (modified) LVD scope. In my experience most equipment is assessed as office equipment (EN 60950) Hope this helps... Regards, Ing. Gert Gremmen, BSc g.grem...@cetest.nl www.cetest.nl Kiotoweg 363 3047 BG Rotterdam T 31(0)104152426 F 31(0)104154953 Before printing, think about the environment. Van: emc-p...@ieee.org [mailto:emc-p...@ieee.org] Namens Crane, Lauren Verzonden: Friday, June 21, 2013 11:59 PM Aan: EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG Onderwerp: Is a Notified Body really needed to assess electrical safety for a 12VDC RTTE device? Dear Experts, I am looking for help in understanding how to correctly address LVD concerns within the RTTED. The RTTED has three main concerns (essential requirements), 1. Radio spectrum issues [art. 3.2] 2. Low voltage safety [art. 3.1.a] - LVD 3. Electromagnetic compatibility [art. 3.1.b] - EMCD EU guidance says each of these concerns may be addressed separately. [Csion guide Apr 2009 6.1 first para] The low voltage directive (LVD) as a stand alone requirement, doesn't apply until DC input voltages reach 75V, but the RTTED requires the LVD to apply regardless of voltage [art. 3.1.a -end]. RTTED also says that the conformity assessment procedures of the LVD may be used where the item is within scope of the LVD (e.g., electrical equipment operating from 80VDC) [art. 10.2]. If a product is not within scope of the LVD on its own (e.g., operating from 12 VDC), one must use the conformity assessment procedures defined in the RTTED (I think). In the RTTED the only assessment procedure that does not require a notified body is 'production control' (Annex II). The Production Control method (Annex II) is *not* allowed for equipment with radio transmitters [art. 10.3,4,5]. So if I have a very low voltage device (e.g. 12 volts) with a data transmission function I must, at first glance, use RTTED conformity assessment methods (and thereby a Notified Body), to assess the LVD concerns. I have already had my widget assessed for radio spectrum issues and EMC issues by Notified Bodies. It looks like I need a notified body for the LVD stuff too. If the voltages were higher, I could self declare LVD compliance. This does not make sense. What am I misunderstanding? Regards, Lauren Crane KLA-Tencor - This message is from the IEEE Product Safety Engineering Society emc-pstc discussion list. To post a message to the list, send your e-mail to All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at: http://www.ieee-pses.org/emc-pstc.html Attachments are not permitted but the IEEE PSES Online Communities site at http://product-compliance.oc.ieee.org/ can be used for graphics (in well-used formats), large files, etc. Website: http://www.ieee-pses.org/ Instructions: http://listserv.ieee.org/request/user-guide.html List rules: http://www.ieee-pses.org/listrules.html For help, send mail to the list administrators: Scott Douglas Mike Cantwell For policy questions, send mail to: Jim Bacher David Heald - This message is from the IEEE Product Safety Engineering Society emc-pstc discussion list. To p
Re: [PSES] new EMC Directive
Dear experts, I have also visited the Dublin meeting, the publication will be later than expected. Indeed Mrs. Papiewska of the EU Commission explained the legal adoption is scheduled for October 2013. After that some time is needed to perform all editorial and administrative actions. So expectation of the directive being operational is end of 2013. Kind regards, Willem Jan Jong Manager Product Certification Telefication B.V. -Original Message- From: emc-p...@ieee.org [mailto:emc-p...@ieee.org] On Behalf Of Larry Stillings Sent: donderdag, 09 mei, 2013 7:33 PM To: 'oconne...@tamuracorp.com'; EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG Subject: RE: new EMC Directive I received an email from NIST this morning. They (EUANB) have met again on May 3rd in Dublin, Ireland. The information I have is "the revision will be adopted in October 2013, publication by the end of the year, and then they will prepare guidelines for the transition period between the current and new directive". That is essentially all of the information from the meeting minutes. Larry Stillings Compliance Worldwide, Inc. -Original Message- From: Brian Oconnell [mailto:oconne...@tamuracorp.com] Sent: Thursday, May 09, 2013 1:24 PM To: EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG Subject: RE: new EMC Directive They, a grouping of 'them', met in December. Here is a synopsis: <http://www.metlabs.com/blog/emc/proposed-emc-directive-revision-has-new -not ified-body-requirements/> Perhaps the EMC experts of this august body can expound for the corps of unwashed compliance engineers. In a similar conspiracy, the FCC published a NPRM (FCC 13-39) for human exposure requirements. Brian -Original Message- From: emc-p...@ieee.org [mailto:emc-p...@ieee.org]On Behalf Of Knighten, Jim L Sent: Thursday, May 09, 2013 9:17 AM To: EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG Subject: new EMC Directive I hear that there is a new EMC Directive being put forward. (The current directive is Directive EMC 2004/108/EC.) Does anyone know what changes this proposed new EMC Directive implements. Jim __ James L. Knighten, Ph.D. EMC Engineer Teradata Corporation 17095 Via Del Campo San Diego, CA 92127 858-485-2537 - phone 858-485-3788 - fax (unattended) - This message is from the IEEE Product Safety Engineering Society emc-pstc discussion list. To post a message to the list, send your e-mail to All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at: http://www.ieee-pses.org/emc-pstc.html Attachments are not permitted but the IEEE PSES Online Communities site at http://product-compliance.oc.ieee.org/ can be used for graphics (in well-used formats), large files, etc. Website: http://www.ieee-pses.org/ Instructions: http://listserv.ieee.org/request/user-guide.html List rules: http://www.ieee-pses.org/listrules.html For help, send mail to the list administrators: Scott Douglas Mike Cantwell For policy questions, send mail to: Jim Bacher David Heald - This message is from the IEEE Product Safety Engineering Society emc-pstc discussion list. To post a message to the list, send your e-mail to All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at: http://www.ieee-pses.org/emc-pstc.html Attachments are not permitted but the IEEE PSES Online Communities site at http://product-compliance.oc.ieee.org/ can be used for graphics (in well-used formats), large files, etc. Website: http://www.ieee-pses.org/ Instructions: http://listserv.ieee.org/request/user-guide.html List rules: http://www.ieee-pses.org/listrules.html For help, send mail to the list administrators: Scott Douglas Mike Cantwell For policy questions, send mail to: Jim Bacher: David Heald: - This message is from the IEEE Product Safety Engineering Society emc-pstc discussion list. To post a message to the list, send your e-mail to All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at: http://www.ieee-pses.org/emc-pstc.html Attachments are not permitted but the IEEE PSES Online Communities site at http://product-compliance.oc.ieee.org/ can be used for graphics (in well-used formats), large files, etc. Website: http://www.ieee-pses.org/ Instructions: http://listserv.ieee.org/request/user-guide.html List rules: http://www.ieee-pses.org/listrules.html For help, send mail to the list administrators: Scott Douglas Mike Cantwell For policy questions, send mail to: Jim Bacher: David Heald: - This message is from the IEEE Product Safety Engineering Society emc-pstc discussion list. To post a message to the list, send your e-mail to All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at: http://www.ieee-pses.org/emc-pstc.html Attachments
Re: [PSES] JATE certificate for Wifi access point
Dear Chris, We can provide you with an article 9 certificate under the Business Law of Japan. If you send us some details we can inform you further. Kind regards, Willem Jan Jong Manager Product Certification Telefication B.V. Edisonstraat 12a 6902 PK zevenaar The Netherlands Tel: +31 316 583 165 From: emc-p...@ieee.org [mailto:emc-p...@ieee.org] On Behalf Of Chris Sent: vrijdag, 01 maart, 2013 8:23 PM To: emc-p...@ieee.org Cc: Christopher Saleem Subject: JATE certificate for Wifi access point Folks, I need some confirmation from our JATE certification folks for Wifi only device. We have a 802.11 a/b/g/n access point and have got the MIC certification. Our Customer in Japan is asking for JATE certification also. We do not have any telecom ports only 2.4GHz and 5Ghz radios in our device. anyone familar with article 9? Can a US manafacturer apply for JATE certificate as it is not applicable to Wifi device and pay the Jate fees. any REAL Jate experience help is appreceiated. I have spoken to two MIC approved TCB, but still no answer to satisfy my customer in Japan. Regards Christopher 408-470-4915 - This message is from the IEEE Product Safety Engineering Society emc-pstc discussion list. To post a message to the list, send your e-mail to All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at: http://www.ieee-pses.org/emc-pstc.html Attachments are not permitted but the IEEE PSES Online Communities site at http://product-compliance.oc.ieee.org/ can be used for graphics (in well-used formats), large files, etc. Website: http://www.ieee-pses.org/ Instructions: http://listserv.ieee.org/request/user-guide.html List rules: http://www.ieee-pses.org/listrules.html For help, send mail to the list administrators: Scott Douglas Mike Cantwell For policy questions, send mail to: Jim Bacher David Heald - This message is from the IEEE Product Safety Engineering Society emc-pstc discussion list. To post a message to the list, send your e-mail to All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at: http://www.ieee-pses.org/emc-pstc.html Attachments are not permitted but the IEEE PSES Online Communities site at http://product-compliance.oc.ieee.org/ can be used for graphics (in well-used formats), large files, etc. Website: http://www.ieee-pses.org/ Instructions: http://listserv.ieee.org/request/user-guide.html List rules: http://www.ieee-pses.org/listrules.html For help, send mail to the list administrators: Scott Douglas Mike Cantwell For policy questions, send mail to: Jim Bacher: David Heald:
RE: Anechoic chambers: risks of energy leaking out
Hi Gert, ILS (Instrument Landing System) operates in the VHF band (108-118 MHz). There is also DME (Distance measuring equipment) which operates in the 960-1215MHz band. Mvg, Willem Jan Jong From: emc-p...@ieee.org [mailto:emc-p...@ieee.org] On Behalf Of Gert Gremmen Sent: donderdag 15 januari 2009 7:17 To: Michael Heckrotte; Frank Krozel; emc-p...@ieee.org; emc-pstc@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG Subject: Anechoic chambers: risks of energy leaking out Right. But still reduces the screening of your chamber from 100 dB or so to 30...40 and thus may cause problems with immunity testing. That brings me to a related subject: The risks that go with RF energy leaking out. Well if you are in the middle of Texas, that may not be such a problem. But my chamber is located precisely below the landing path of Rotterdam airport, and civil aircrafts like B737 fly approx. 150m (500ft) above it. Any idea what may happen, if a substantial amount of the right frequency leaks out at the right (?!?) moment ? Well, in fact I don't know. Is there someone on this list with pertinent data on this subject ?? Someone that can provide risk frequencies ? Gert Gremmen Van: emc-p...@ieee.org [mailto:emc-p...@ieee.org] Namens Michael Heckrotte Verzonden: donderdag 15 januari 2009 3:26 Aan: Frank Krozel; emc-p...@ieee.org; emc-pstc@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG Onderwerp: RE: Anechoic Chamber: Pass-through on hydraulic lines All, As was stated some months or years ago on this list regarding this same topic: The waveguide pipe is an outer conducter, the wire going through it is a center conductor, and the combination of insulation/air is a dielectric; this configuration is also known as a coaxial cable = transmission line. If you absolutely must feed a wire or an ungrounded coax into a chamber, and the wire or coax ground cannot be filtered, then feed the wire or coax through two absorbing clamps, one inside the chamber and one outside the chamber. Place an absorbing clamp at each end of the waveguide pipe, butted up as close as possible to the waveguide pipe. This is effective over the frequency range at which the absorbing clamps provide decent common-mode decoupling. Best Regards, Mike Michael Heckrotte Director of Engineering Compliance Certification Services 47173 Benicia Street, Fremont, CA 94538 Main: (510) 771-1000 Direct: (510) 771-1121 Fax: (510) 661-0885 michael.heckro...@ccsemc.com From: emc-p...@ieee.org [mailto:emc-p...@ieee.org] On Behalf Of Frank Krozel Sent: Wednesday, January 14, 2009 6:25 AM To: emc-p...@ieee.org Subject: Re: Anechoic Chamber: Pass-through on hydraulic lines All, Tim's comment made me think. In the past, I have seen hydraulic lines passed through waveguide feed-thrus that have re-inforced metal braid. Be aware of this if you need to pass hydraulic lines into your chamber or RF shielded enclosure. Alternatives do exist that are non-conductive. Regards Frank Krozel http://www.electronicinstrument.com From: Haynes, Tim (SELEX GALILEO, UK) To: emc-p...@ieee.org Sent: Wednesday, January 14, 2009 6:26 AM Subject: RE: Anechoic Chamber: Pass-through vs. Bulkhead Hi All, Conventional wisdom is, as stated, to bond the shield of a cable, hydraulic pipe, or any other electrically conductive - non-energised item that penetrates the shield wall. This is usually done with a purpose made "bulkhead" connector and is, again, usually done at a purpose made access plate in the shield room wall. Energised items cannot be connected to the shield and here the conventional wisdom is to connect the energised conductor via a filter that has its local ground connected to the shield wall. However, it might be acceptable to use a pass-through pipe where the pipe is long and can provide a sufficiently high capacitance to ground to form a functional filter at the frequencies of concern. The capacitance might be increased by "stuffing" the pass through pipe with conductive wire wool. I once had no option but to "pass through" a cable into the chamber. The project allowed me to remove the outer insulation at the pass through and I bonded the cable shield to the screened room by using a bolt to apply pressure to a shim of metal that held the cable firmly to the metal of the pass through pipe. That worked well. I hope the information helps. Regards Tim Tim Haynes A1N10 Electromagnetic Engineering Specialist SELEX Sensors and Airborne Systems 300 Capability Green Luton LU1 3PG ( Tel : +44 (0)1582 886239 7 Fax : +44 (0)1582 795863 ) Mob: +44 (0)7703 559 310 * E-mail : tim.hay...@selexgalileo.com P Please consider the environment before printing this email. There are 10 types of people in the world-those who understand binary and those who don't. J. Paxman SELEX Sensors and Airborne Systems Limited Registered Office: Sigma House, Christopher Martin Road, Basildon, Essex SS14 3EL A company regist
