Re: [PSES] Need a LARGE Chamber

[Brian Gregory]

 Intertek has a group out of Boston that specializes in "in situ" EMC testing, 
even outdoors.  That's the best bet I can think of.  Colorado Brian 

-- Original Message --
From: Ken Javor <ken.ja...@emccompliance.com>
To: EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG
Subject: Re: [PSES] Need a LARGE Chamber
Date: Fri, 12 Aug 2016 13:01:37 -0500


He said Canada.  The only question in my mind is, is there any part of Canada 
that is not remote? :-)
 
 Ken Javor
 Phone: (256) 650-5261
 
 

From: Doug Powell <doug...@gmail.com>

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Re: [PSES] Need a LARGE Chamber

[Ed Price]

Ken:

 

“I can’t imaging ANYONE allowing you to test an incinerator in their chamber!  
Ha!”

 

Well hah I say right back to you. J In the 80’s, I built a 50’ long shielded 
enclosure (Fred Nichols of LMI did the installation) for EMC testing of turbine 
APU’s (aircraft Auxiliary Power Units). Beyond the normal EMC considerations, 
the APU’s presented several really interesting issues:

·The shielded chamber had a 10’ x 10’ removable end panel to allow for 
rolling the APU’s in on a test cart.

·I had to install chain mail shields inside the enclosure to contain 
hurtling turbine blades, should the turbine wheel fail.

·I had to build a shielded hot exhaust port in the side of the shielded 
enclosure.

·I had to install a huge fume extractor system in the enclosure wall 
(in case of a false start, the chamber could fill with a fog of 
explosive/flammable fuel).

·I had to install multiple shielded air vents in the shielded enclosure 
walls because when that turbine gets running, its one heck of a vacuum cleaner. 
(The shielded enclosure wall loading with even a 0.1 psi pressure differential 
would have been 7 tons.)

·I had to install a resistive load bank within the enclosure to load 
the APU’s (lots of heat, but then air motion was great).

·I had to create a fuel farm of 55-gallon jet fuel drums outside the 
enclosure (with anti-spill containment berms).

·I had to provide for about 20 high-pressure air cylinders (each about 
the size of a welder’s oxygen tank) inside the shielded enclosure to provide 
for air-starting of some APU’s.

·And this being Southern California, I had to get a permit from the 
very cranky Air Pollution Control District to allow me to burn all that jet 
fuel in a non-aircraft application. And I had to create and get approved a 
hazardous materials abatement plan (in case I spilled some jet fuel).

 

Ed Price
WB6WSN
Chula Vista, CA USA



 

From: Ken Wyatt [mailto:k...@emc-seminars.com] 
Sent: Friday, August 12, 2016 8:43 AM
To: EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG
Subject: Re: [PSES] Need a LARGE Chamber

 

Hmmm Doug, well that’s an interesting one.

 

You might consider doing what John McCloskey (Chief EMC Engineer for NASA’s 
James Web Space Telescope) did and perform the immunity tests on just the 
electronics control package, rather than the whole enchilada (in John’s case, 
the entire satellite). You should be able to simulate the actual incinerator in 
some way, such that the essential testing is done to just that part of the 
system that is most meaningful.

 

You might want to listen to John’s keynote presentation at 
http://www.emclive2016.com as it may be directly applicable to your situation. 
You may gain some interesting insight.

 

I can’t imaging ANYONE allowing you to test an incinerator in their chamber!  
Ha!

 

Cheers, Ken


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Re: [PSES] Need a LARGE Chamber

[Ed Price]

Doug:

 

Can you perhaps think outside the incinerator for a moment? Consider that a
shipping container can be a decent shielded enclosure (with proper attention
to penetrations, seams and door gasketing). It's my guess that you could
achieve 80 dB SE across a wide spectrum, so a figure of 40 dB SE would be
very conservative.

 

Now think of what the shielded boxes are protecting from an external
environment (a generator, electrical distribution and control system, air
conditioning and environmental controls and a shredder with associated
control electronics). If you want to operate this equipment in the presence
of 50 V/M external fields, and you are living inside a 40 dB SE box, then
your electronics would only have to withstand (50 V/M) / 100) or 0.5 V/M.
Wow, do you think you can find industrial electronics that can withstand a
half-volt per meter RF all on their own?

 

So, the scenario that I'm suggesting is that you prove the capability of the
unshielded electronics to work to say, 1 V/M, and you prove the SE of the
containers / interconnections to provide 40 dB of SE. And don't forget that
SE is symmetrical, so you can demonstrate SE "inside out" (that is,
generating the strong RF field inside the enclosure, precluding RF
environmental hassles). Do that, and you can claim immunity to 100 V/M
external fields. Prove the immunity a bit higher (maybe 3 V/M) and the SE
another 20 dB stronger, and your client can claim immunity to 3,000 V/M and
sell this incinerator as capable of working on a carrier flight deck.

 

BTW, it sounds like this incinerator will need external kerosene and
obviously vents to the atmosphere. The fuel line can be treated like any
other physical penetration that is a waveguide below cutoff. The exhaust
vent will be perhaps 18" diameter and will transport very hot gasses. I
would worry about particulate size, but you could install a high-temperature
honeycomb structure inside the stack to maintain SE of the container. You
may need to make the filter a quick-service module of the stack to allow for
periodic cleaning or replacement. (I used this technique successfully for an
NSA shielded "aircraft hangar" in Colorado which had its own dedicated power
plant within the shielded volume.) It's mostly a mechanical engineering, not
EMC, challenge.

 

Ed Price
WB6WSN
Chula Vista, CA USA



 

From: Douglas Nix [mailto:d...@mac.com] 
Sent: Friday, August 12, 2016 8:31 AM
To: EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG
Subject: [PSES] Need a LARGE Chamber

 

I am working with a client that is building a portable incinerator system
that is built into three full-size sea containers and burns diesel fuel as
the primary fuel. It has a stack that is about 60 ft when fully assembled.
We need to do a fully assembled test, and I need access to either a BIG
chamber with a hole in the roof, or a remote OATS where I can to a 50 V/m
radiated immunity test.

 

Oh, and it needs to be in Canada.

 

Any help would be appreciated!

 

--

Doug Nix

d...@mac.com

 

If you pick up a starving dog and make him prosperous, he will not bite you;
that is the principal difference between a dog and a man. - Mark Twain 

 

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F

Re: [PSES] Need a LARGE Chamber

[Ken Javor]

He said Canada.  The only question in my mind is, is there any part of
Canada that is not remote? :-)

Ken Javor
Phone: (256) 650-5261



From: Doug Powell <doug...@gmail.com>
Reply-To: Doug Powell <doug...@gmail.com>
Date: Fri, 12 Aug 2016 09:54:56 -0600
To: <EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG>
Subject: Re: [PSES] Need a LARGE Chamber

   
Doug,

Can you go out in the New Mexico desert and get a temporary waiver from the
FCC?

Doug
   

   

Douglas E Powell
doug...@gmail.com (business)
?https://www.linkedin.com/in/dougp01

 
? 
   
 From: Douglas Nix
Sent: Friday, August 12, 2016 9:31 AM
To: EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG
Reply To: Douglas Nix
Subject: [PSES] Need a LARGE Chamber

I am working with a client that is building a portable incinerator system
that is built into three full-size sea containers and burns diesel fuel as
the primary fuel. It has a stack that is about 60 ft when fully assembled.
We need to do a fully assembled test, and I need access to either a BIG
chamber with a hole in the roof, or a remote OATS where I can to a 50 V/m
radiated immunity test.

Oh, and it needs to be in Canada.

Any help would be appreciated!

--
Doug Nix
d...@mac.com

If you pick up a starving dog and make him prosperous, he will not bite you;
that is the principal difference between a dog and a man. - Mark Twain

-


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Re: [PSES] Need a LARGE Chamber

[Ken Wyatt]

Hmmm Doug, well that’s an interesting one.

You might consider doing what John McCloskey (Chief EMC Engineer for NASA’s 
James Web Space Telescope) did and perform the immunity tests on just the 
electronics control package, rather than the whole enchilada (in John’s case, 
the entire satellite). You should be able to simulate the actual incinerator in 
some way, such that the essential testing is done to just that part of the 
system that is most meaningful.

You might want to listen to John’s keynote presentation at 
http://www.emclive2016.com as it may be directly applicable to your situation. 
You may gain some interesting insight.

I can’t imaging ANYONE allowing you to test an incinerator in their chamber!  
Ha!

Cheers, Ken

___

I'm here to help you succeed! Feel free to call or email with any questions 
related to EMC or EMI troubleshooting - at no obligation. I'm always happy to 
help!

Kenneth Wyatt
Wyatt Technical Services LLC
56 Aspen Dr.
Woodland Park, CO 80863

Phone: (719) 310-5418

Email Me!  | Web Site 
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The EMC Blog (EDN) 
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> On Aug 12, 2016, at 9:30 AM, Douglas Nix  wrote:
> 
> I am working with a client that is building a portable incinerator system 
> that is built into three full-size sea containers and burns diesel fuel as 
> the primary fuel. It has a stack that is about 60 ft when fully assembled. We 
> need to do a fully assembled test, and I need access to either a BIG chamber 
> with a hole in the roof, or a remote OATS where I can to a 50 V/m radiated 
> immunity test.
> 
> Oh, and it needs to be in Canada.
> 
> Any help would be appreciated!
> 
> --
> Doug Nix
> d...@mac.com 
> 
> If you pick up a starving dog and make him prosperous, he will not bite you; 
> that is the principal difference between a dog and a man. - Mark Twain 
> 
> -
> 
> This message is from the IEEE Product Safety Engineering Society emc-pstc 
> discussion list. To post a message to the list, send your e-mail to 
> >
> 
> All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at: 
> http://www.ieee-pses.org/emc-pstc.html 
> 
> Attachments are not permitted but the IEEE PSES Online Communities site at 
> http://product-compliance.oc.ieee.org/ 
>  can be used for graphics (in 
> well-used formats), large files, etc.
> 
> Website: http://www.ieee-pses.org/ 
> Instructions: http://www.ieee-pses.org/list.html (including how to 
> unsubscribe) 
> List rules: http://www.ieee-pses.org/listrules.html 
> 
> For help, send mail to the list administrators:
> Scott Douglas >
> Mike Cantwell >
> 
> For policy questions, send mail to:
> Jim Bacher >
> David Heald >
> 


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Re: [PSES] Need a LARGE Chamber

[Doug Powell]

  Doug,Can you go out in the New Mexico desert and get a temporary waiver from the FCC?DougDouglas E Powelldoug...@gmail.com (business)‎https://www.linkedin.com/in/dougp01 â€Ž From: Douglas NixSent: Friday, August 12, 2016 9:31 AMTo: EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORGReply To: Douglas NixSubject: [PSES] Need a LARGE ChamberI am working with a client that is building a portable incinerator system that is built into three full-size sea containers and burns diesel fuel as the primary fuel. It has a stack that is about 60 ft when fully assembled. We need to do a fully assembled test, and I need access to either a BIG chamber with a hole in the roof, or a remote OATS where I can to a 50 V/m radiated immunity test.Oh, and it needs to be in Canada.Any help would be appreciated!
--Doug Nixd...@mac.comIf you pick up a starving dog and make him prosperous, he will not bite you; that is the principal difference between a dog and a man. - Mark Twain 



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[PSES] Need a LARGE Chamber

[Douglas Nix]

I am working with a client that is building a portable incinerator system that 
is built into three full-size sea containers and burns diesel fuel as the 
primary fuel. It has a stack that is about 60 ft when fully assembled. We need 
to do a fully assembled test, and I need access to either a BIG chamber with a 
hole in the roof, or a remote OATS where I can to a 50 V/m radiated immunity 
test.

Oh, and it needs to be in Canada.

Any help would be appreciated!

--
Doug Nix
d...@mac.com

If you pick up a starving dog and make him prosperous, he will not bite you; 
that is the principal difference between a dog and a man. - Mark Twain 


-

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