Re: [PSES] "Smart" Batteries

[Ken Javor]

If a battery connects to a signal cable in addition to charging and
discharging a dc bus (for instance), then that signal cable is required for
the test in any EMI standard. In the case of just such a battery, it reports
status to an annunciator panel so that operators can monitor its state of
charge.  It is business as usual to include that cable and a simulated panel
in the test, although the panel, not being under test, is outside the test
chamber.
  
Ken Javor
Phone: (256) 650-5261



From: Cortland Richmond 
Reply-To: 
Date: Fri, 24 Aug 2012 14:23:45 -0400
To: 
Cc: 
Subject: Re: [PSES] "Smart" Batteries

   
   

Hi, Ed.  I wasn¹t suggesting the EUT would be an exposure problem, as the
usual emissions are far too low; just that a mannequin made for whole body
SAR would be almost ideal. You got around that by measuring  the difference
in emissions. Bingo!
 
 

 
 
The point I wanted to make was that 461 tests need to closely approximate
the actual use environment, which a passive charge discharge/recharge cycle
doesn¹t do for actively communicating smart batteries.
 

 Cheers,
 
 Cortland Richmond
 KA5S
   
 On 8/24/2012 1313, Ed Price wrote:
 
 
> Re: "Smart" Batteries
>  
> 
> Cortland:
>  
>  
>  
> I didn¹t get into other details, but yes, we were concerned about human RF
> exposure at the 225 MHz data link frequency. However, the modulation scheme
> was very low duty cycle. First, we had a message rate of once per 10 seconds.
> Then, the individual participant was assigned a time-slot that allowed for
> roughly a 9 millisecond total message. And the message itself was composed of
> frames of data, which consisted of digital words made of digital bits (offs
> and ons). You could sure see it with a Peak detector, but the Average was
> undetectable. We did measurements with a QP and Average detector, plus
> measurements with a bolometer type power density meter, in addition to
> calculating the power from Peak measurements and typical duty cycle values.
> Every way we looked at it, the human exposure was very low.
>  
>  
>  
> We tested the soldier-worn system on a mannequin to 461 conditions; there were
> never any connecting wires, although we did have to supply real-time GPS to
> the EUT. It was also helpful that the soldier-worn harness also had optical
> ports that we could use. I would have preferred a mannequin that was more
> representative of a human torso, but out PVC pipe and foam rubber mannequin
> produced emission results very similar to a man-worn setup. We also did
> extensive antenna pattern testing with real humans crawling around in the
> dirt. The battery is never charged while on the soldier, so the man-worn
> equipment really has only one mode of operation. The batteries are usually
> installed before the training session, but a long session might require a
> field re-supply, so a quantity of batteries could be transported, typically on
> an HMMWV. Batteries are never charged in the field, or while in the harness,
> mainly because it¹s easier to move charged batteries than the chargers
> themselves.
>  
>  
>  
> As an aside, we sold systems to the British, and they had us include
> enhancements such as gadgets that simulated land mines & IED¹s, so not
> everything was man-worn. And of course, there were other devices in this
> product family that were intended for vehicles and weapons, but that testing
> was similar to traditional 461 testing.
>  
>  
>  
> The concern about ³very long² cables as part of the EUT may be going away.
> System designers are finally embracing optical cables instead of using a
> fire-hose sized signal and control cable bundles. OTOH, I was seeing a rise in
> designs that tried to use COTS Wi-Fi (or similar) to network very local boxes
> instead of using signal & control cables. There are a lot of EMC problems with
> this, so we will still have lots of job security. J
>  
>  
>  
>  
> 
> Ed Price
>  
> El Cajon, CA
>  
> USA
>  
>  
>  
>  
>  
>  
 
 -


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Re: [PSES] "Smart" Batteries

[Cortland Richmond]

Hi, Ed.  I wasn't suggesting the EUT would be an exposure problem, as 
the usual emissions are far too low; just that a mannequin made for 
whole body SAR would be almost ideal. You got around that by measuring 
the difference in emissions. *Bingo!*



The point I wanted to make was that 461 tests need to closely 
approximate the actual use environment, which a passive charge 
discharge/recharge cycle doesn't do for actively communicating smart 
batteries.



Cheers,

Cortland Richmond
KA5S


On 8/24/2012 1313, Ed Price wrote:

Re: "Smart" Batteries

*Cortland:*

**

*I didn't get into other details, but yes, we were concerned about 
human RF exposure at the 225 MHz data link frequency. However, the 
modulation scheme was very low duty cycle. First, we had a message 
rate of once per 10 seconds. Then, the individual participant was 
assigned a time-slot that allowed for roughly a 9 millisecond total 
message. And the message itself was composed of frames of data, which 
consisted of digital words made of digital bits (offs and ons). You 
could sure see it with a Peak detector, but the Average was 
undetectable. We did measurements with a QP and Average detector, plus 
measurements with a bolometer type power density meter, in addition to 
calculating the power from Peak measurements and typical duty cycle 
values. Every way we looked at it, the human exposure was very low.*


**

*We tested the soldier-worn system on a mannequin to 461 conditions; 
there were never any connecting wires, although we did have to supply 
real-time GPS to the EUT. It was also helpful that the soldier-worn 
harness also had optical ports that we could use. I would have 
preferred a mannequin that was more representative of a human torso, 
but out PVC pipe and foam rubber mannequin produced emission results 
very similar to a man-worn setup. We also did extensive antenna 
pattern testing with real humans crawling around in the dirt. The 
battery is never charged while on the soldier, so the man-worn 
equipment really has only one mode of operation. The batteries are 
usually installed before the training session, but a long session 
might require a field re-supply, so a quantity of batteries could be 
transported, typically on an HMMWV. Batteries are never charged in the 
field, or while in the harness, mainly because it's easier to move 
charged batteries than the chargers themselves.*


**

*As an aside, we sold systems to the British, and they had us include 
enhancements such as gadgets that simulated land mines & IED's, so not 
everything was man-worn. And of course, there were other devices in 
this product family that were intended for vehicles and weapons, but 
that testing was similar to traditional 461 testing.*


**

*The concern about "very long" cables as part of the EUT may be going 
away. System designers are finally embracing optical cables instead of 
using a fire-hose sized signal and control cable bundles. OTOH, I was 
seeing a rise in designs that tried to use COTS Wi-Fi (or similar) to 
network very local boxes instead of using signal & control cables. 
There are a lot of EMC problems with this, so we will still have lots 
of job security. **J***


**

*Ed Price*

*El Cajon, CA*

*USA*





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Re: [PSES] "Smart" Batteries

[Ed Price]

Cortland:

 

I didn't get into other details, but yes, we were concerned about human RF
exposure at the 225 MHz data link frequency. However, the modulation scheme
was very low duty cycle. First, we had a message rate of once per 10
seconds. Then, the individual participant was assigned a time-slot that
allowed for roughly a 9 millisecond total message. And the message itself
was composed of frames of data, which consisted of digital words made of
digital bits (offs and ons). You could sure see it with a Peak detector, but
the Average was undetectable. We did measurements with a QP and Average
detector, plus measurements with a bolometer type power density meter, in
addition to calculating the power from Peak measurements and typical duty
cycle values. Every way we looked at it, the human exposure was very low.

 

We tested the soldier-worn system on a mannequin to 461 conditions; there
were never any connecting wires, although we did have to supply real-time
GPS to the EUT. It was also helpful that the soldier-worn harness also had
optical ports that we could use. I would have preferred a mannequin that was
more representative of a human torso, but out PVC pipe and foam rubber
mannequin produced emission results very similar to a man-worn setup. We
also did extensive antenna pattern testing with real humans crawling around
in the dirt. The battery is never charged while on the soldier, so the
man-worn equipment really has only one mode of operation. The batteries are
usually installed before the training session, but a long session might
require a field re-supply, so a quantity of batteries could be transported,
typically on an HMMWV. Batteries are never charged in the field, or while in
the harness, mainly because it's easier to move charged batteries than the
chargers themselves.

 

As an aside, we sold systems to the British, and they had us include
enhancements such as gadgets that simulated land mines & IED's, so not
everything was man-worn. And of course, there were other devices in this
product family that were intended for vehicles and weapons, but that testing
was similar to traditional 461 testing.

 

The concern about "very long" cables as part of the EUT may be going away.
System designers are finally embracing optical cables instead of using a
fire-hose sized signal and control cable bundles. OTOH, I was seeing a rise
in designs that tried to use COTS Wi-Fi (or similar) to network very local
boxes instead of using signal & control cables. There are a lot of EMC
problems with this, so we will still have lots of job security. J

 

Ed Price

El Cajon, CA

USA

 

 

From: Cortland Richmond [mailto:k...@earthlink.net] 
Sent: Friday, August 24, 2012 6:52 AM
To: EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG
Subject: Re: [PSES] "Smart" Batteries

 

This has been an INTERESTING discussion. 

I plead guilty to having worded my initial comment poorly; a smart battery
must be tested in a configuration that that duplicates the one it is used
in, and that exercises each of its functions; the question Bob asked was
about, "...batteries that communication with the charger or EUT for charge
rates, time left, overheating, etc."  That clearly requires some smart
batteries be tested inside the powered equipment, first because emissions
they create may be shielded by that equipment, and second, because attaching
cables for testing in alone adds antennas that  both radiate emissions and
are more efficient receptors for immunity tests than a battery installed in
the powered equipment and shielded by it may be. If an external is used, it
would be proper to test that configuration as a stand-alone test as well as
running the pwored equipment with them installed..

In Ed's example batteries were normally connected to the powered equipment
with wires and it would be appropriate to test that not only with cabling,
but perhaps on a mannequin or a human torso equivalent material. Whole body
SAR, anyone?.

MIL-STD-461 requires wiring and cables used during a test be
"representative" of the aircraft wiring.  I once saw a system for a
cargo/passenger aircraft tested (not my lab -- I was officially an observer
and helper on that project) with full-length wiring on pegboards (still an
improvement over spaghetti on the table), stacked on top of each other to
fit in a chamber.  This is not really representative of an aircraft and I
suspect few tests of long cables in a chamber really are. That is another
issue. The relevance here is that the test should be done in a way that both
creates radiators equivalent to the end use and receptors that will deliver
equivalent RF to the device under test. There's room here for some
enterprising and cash-flush (heh) lab to produce a White Paper.

VERY interesting discussion.

Cortland Richmond


On 8/23/2012 1234, Ken Javor wrote:

That is simply not true in the general case.  What about a 28 Vdc battery
that backs up the esse

Re: [PSES] "Smart" Batteries

[Cortland Richmond]

This has been an INTERESTING discussion.

I plead guilty to having worded my initial comment poorly; a smart 
battery must be tested in a configuration that that duplicates the one 
it is used in, and that exercises each of its functions; the question 
Bob asked was about, "...batteries that communication with the charger 
or EUT for charge rates, time left, overheating, etc." That clearly 
requires some smart batteries be tested inside the powered equipment, 
first because emissions they create may be shielded by that equipment, 
and second, because attaching cables for testing in alone adds antennas 
that  both radiate emissions and are more efficient receptors for 
immunity tests than a battery installed in the powered equipment and 
shielded by it may be. If an external is used, it would be proper to 
test that configuration as a stand-alone test as well as running the 
pwored equipment with them installed..


In Ed's example batteries were normally connected to the powered 
equipment with wires and it would be appropriate to test that not only 
with cabling, but perhaps on a mannequin or a human torso equivalent 
material. Whole body SAR, anyone?.


MIL-STD-461 requires wiring and cables used during a test be 
"representative" of the aircraft wiring.  I once saw a system for a 
cargo/passenger aircraft tested (not my lab -- I was officially an 
observer and helper on that project) with full-length wiring on 
pegboards (still an improvement over spaghetti on the table), stacked on 
top of each other to fit in a chamber.  This is not really 
representative of an aircraft and I suspect few tests of long cables in 
a chamber really are. That is another issue. The relevance here is that 
the test should be done in a way that both creates radiators equivalent 
to the end use and receptors that will deliver equivalent RF to the 
device under test. There's room here for some enterprising and 
cash-flush (heh) lab to produce a White Paper.


VERY interesting discussion.

Cortland Richmond


On 8/23/2012 1234, Ken Javor wrote:
Re: "Smart" Batteries That is simply not true in the general case. 
 What about a 28 Vdc battery that backs up the essential bus on an 
aircraft? What about a MANPACK battery that is discharged while being 
worn, and connected to a mains or generated-powered charger after the 
mission is over.


In the commercial world, what about a battery designed to be used in 
an UPS? I have purchased several replacement batteries designed to 
replace the OEM battery in same.


Ken Javor
Phone: (256) 650-5261



*From: *Cortland Richmond 
*Reply-To: *
*Date: *Thu, 23 Aug 2012 11:58:15 -0400
*To: *
*Subject: *Re: "Smart" Batteries


"Smart" batteries are electronic subassemblies that don't work 
properly outside of the equipment in which they are meant to be used 
and must be tested in it.


 Cortland Richmond

 On 8/22/2012 1243, rehel...@mmm.com wrote:




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Re: [PSES] "Smart" Batteries

[Pearson, John]

Hi Bob

I don't know what's applicable to these products personally but the official 
answer is to go through the EMCD OJ listing for harmonized stds 
http://ec.europa.eu/enterprise/policies/european-standards/harmonised-standards/electromagnetic-compatibility/index_en.htm
 and decide based upon the applicable scope of each listed std.  You may end up 
with a set of requirements rather than just one.  If nothing is applicable use 
a generic std EN 61000-6- whatever.

MiLStd 461 is not a harmonized std.

best

John

From: emc-p...@ieee.org [mailto:emc-p...@ieee.org] On Behalf Of rehel...@mmm.com
Sent: 24 August 2012 12:48
To: John Woodgate
Cc: emc-p...@ieee.org; EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG
Subject: Re: [PSES] "Smart" Batteries

But what standards apply in order "to carry a CE mark in its own right for EMC"?

>From what I understand, a smart battery is tested to the EMC standard that 
>covers the equipment that it is installed in. What I am not clear on is the 
>EMC standards that apply to testing smart batteries on their own (evidently 
>MilStd 461 is one though).

Bob Heller
3M EMC Laboratory, 76-1-01
St. Paul, MN 55107-1208
Tel: 651-778-6336
Fax: 651-778-6252
=




From:John Woodgate mailto:j...@jmwa.demon.co.uk>>
To:EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG<mailto:EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG>
Date:    08/23/2012 03:31 PM
Subject:Re: [PSES] "Smart" Batteries
Sent by:emc-p...@ieee.org<mailto:emc-p...@ieee.org>




In message 
mailto:cc5bf2b9.2b66e%25ken.ja...@emccompliance.com>>,
 dated Thu, 23
Aug 2012, Ken Javor 
mailto:ken.ja...@emccompliance.com>> writes:

>And that is what my post addressed by stating that the battery during
>test is performing its intrinsic function of storing and dispensing
>electrical energy.

OK, all that means is that in Europe it has to carry a CE mark in its
own right for EMC as well as for any other applicable Directives.
--
OOO - Own Opinions Only. Try www.jmwa.demon.co.uk and www.isce.org.uk
Instead of saying that the government is doing too little, too late or too
much, too early, say they've got is exactly right, thus throwing them into
total confusion.
John Woodgate, J M Woodgate and Associates, Rayleigh, Essex UK

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Re: [PSES] "Smart" Batteries

[John Woodgate]

In message 
, 
dated Fri, 24 Aug 2012, rehel...@mmm.com writes:


But what standards apply in order "to carry a CE mark in its own right 
for EMC"?


From what I understand, a smart battery is tested to the EMC standard 
that covers the equipment that it is installed in. What I am not clear 
on is the EMC standards that apply to testing smart batteries on their 
own (evidently MilStd 461 is one though).


It seems that IEC TC21 hasn't yet seen any need for an EMC immunity 
standard for smart batteries per se, so in Europe the Generic standards 
(IEC/EN 61000-6 series) apply.

--
OOO - Own Opinions Only. Try www.jmwa.demon.co.uk and www.isce.org.uk
Instead of saying that the government is doing too little, too late or too
much, too early, say they've got is exactly right, thus throwing them into
total confusion.
John Woodgate, J M Woodgate and Associates, Rayleigh, Essex UK

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Re: [PSES] "Smart" Batteries

[Robert Heller]

But what standards apply in order "to carry a CE mark in its own right for 
EMC"?

>From what I understand, a smart battery is tested to the EMC standard that 
covers the equipment that it is installed in. What I am not clear on is 
the EMC standards that apply to testing smart batteries on their own 
(evidently MilStd 461 is one though).

Bob Heller
3M EMC Laboratory, 76-1-01
St. Paul, MN 55107-1208
Tel: 651-778-6336
Fax: 651-778-6252
=




From:   John Woodgate 
To: EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG
Date:   08/23/2012 03:31 PM
Subject:    Re: [PSES] "Smart" Batteries
Sent by:emc-p...@ieee.org



In message , dated Thu, 23 
Aug 2012, Ken Javor  writes:

>And that is what my post addressed by stating that the battery during 
>test is performing its intrinsic function of storing and dispensing 
>electrical energy.

OK, all that means is that in Europe it has to carry a CE mark in its 
own right for EMC as well as for any other applicable Directives.
-- 
OOO - Own Opinions Only. Try www.jmwa.demon.co.uk and www.isce.org.uk
Instead of saying that the government is doing too little, too late or too
much, too early, say they've got is exactly right, thus throwing them into
total confusion.
John Woodgate, J M Woodgate and Associates, Rayleigh, Essex UK

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Re: [PSES] "Smart" Batteries

[Bill Owsley]

Some years ago I worked on the then being developed batteries for the electric 
cars today.
The vendor started testing early in development and so the EMC features could 
be designed in rather added on.
They had a cable for status reporting, and one for DC power, in or out as 
needed.
As Ken noted, the smarts too care of everything.




 From: Ken Javor 
To: EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG 
Sent: Thursday, August 23, 2012 3:46 PM
Subject: Re: [PSES] "Smart" Batteries
 
And that is what my post addressed by stating that the battery during test
is performing its intrinsic function of storing and dispensing electrical
energy.  In my experience, these batteries control themselves and do not
need an external interface to provide functionality, or control of charging
or discharging or anything else. The internal circuitry senses current into
or out of the battery, as well as charging potential, and if any of these or
internal temperature exceeds limits, it shuts down.
  
Ken Javor
Phone: (256) 650-5261


> From: John Woodgate 
> Date: Thu, 23 Aug 2012 20:23:09 +0100
> To: 
> Subject: Re: [PSES] "Smart" Batteries
> 
> In message , dated Thu, 23
> Aug 2012, Ken Javor  writes:
> 
>> Admittedly beyond my area of expertise discussing what ?intrinsic
>> function? means in a legalistic sense,
> 
> It is vague, but here it means that the smart battery by itself isn't
> usable for anything except a paperweight. It only acts as a battery when
> it's inside a portable computer or the like that can whisper the
> requisite magic words into its connector.
> -- 
> OOO - Own Opinions Only. Try www.jmwa.demon.co.uk and www.isce.org.uk
> Instead of saying that the government is doing too little, too late or too
> much, too early, say they've got is exactly right, thus throwing them into
> total confusion.
> John Woodgate, J M Woodgate and Associates, Rayleigh, Essex UK
> 
> -
> 
> This message is from the IEEE Product Safety Engineering Society emc-pstc
> discussion list. To post a message to the list, send your e-mail to
> 
> 
> All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at:
> http://www.ieee-pses.org/emc-pstc.html
> 
> Attachments are not permitted but the IEEE PSES Online Communities site at
> http://product-compliance.oc.ieee.org/ can be used for graphics (in well-used
> formats), large files, etc.
> 
> Website:  http://www.ieee-pses.org/
> Instructions:  http://listserv.ieee.org/request/user-guide.html
> List rules: http://www.ieee-pses.org/listrules.html
> 
> For help, send mail to the list administrators:
> Scott Douglas 
> Mike Cantwell 
> 
> For policy questions, send mail to:
> Jim Bacher:  
> David Heald: 

-

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Mike Cantwell 

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Jim Bacher:  
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Mike Cantwell 

For policy questions, send mail to:
Jim Bacher:  
David Heald: 

Re: [PSES] "Smart" Batteries

[Ken Javor]

The ones I tested were smart enough to auto-reset or be reset-able once the
fault condition abated.
  
Ken Javor
Phone: (256) 650-5261


> From: "Conway, Patrick" 
> Date: Thu, 23 Aug 2012 14:22:47 -0600
> To: , 
> Conversation: [PSES] "Smart" Batteries
> Subject: RE: [PSES] "Smart" Batteries
> 
>  It was like testing fuses 
> 
> Exactly!  Most smart-batteries have non-resettable fuses designed to be
> tripped by over-temp.  Originally thought to protect the chemistry from
> reaching ignition temps.  But as Ed found, also a very good one-time RF
> detector!
> 
> //
> Patrick 
> 
> -Original Message-
> From: Ed Price [mailto:edpr...@cox.net]
> Sent: Thursday, August 23, 2012 1:21 PM
> To: EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG
> Subject: Re: [PSES] "Smart" Batteries
> 
> At my previous employer, we began using "smart" batteries around 6 years
> ago. These batteries were mounted into a soldier-worn fabric harness, and
> were the power source for both the optical detectors & signal processing
> equipment, plus the pulsed 20 Watt peak RF data transceiver. Batteries were
> charged in a shop environment, then plugged into the soldier harnesses and
> used in the operational environment for a few days (either before the
> training scenario ended or a fresh battery was installed). Thus, MIL-STD-461
> dictated testing in two environments; the stringent operational environment
> (imagine a squad hopping on a helicopter, with all transceivers chirping
> away and subject to the airborne RF environment) and the much less stringent
> charging environment (imagine the corner of a storage shed, with a few dozen
> batteries sitting in charging trays).
> 
> The first time I encountered these batteries, I didn't realize that they had
> built-in microprocessors that never turned off. In addition to the normal
> "user" noise problems, I now had what had always been considered to be a
> passive device contributing its own EMC problems.
> 
> One interesting thing was that these "smart" batteries had a rather
> long-period, short duration mode in which the battery brains would call for
> a capacity test that created a quick noise burst. Another problem was that
> the battery manufacturers were (initially) very EMC naive; no shielding,
> long internal sensor leads that acted like little antennas and fed directly
> into microprocessor inputs, apparently no history of ever doing any previous
> component-level EMC investigation.
> 
> So these batteries had emission and immunity problems all by themselves, and
> we had to adopt several less-than perfect fixes in order to use them. We
> went through powerline filtering, discrete harness pouch shields, wrapping
> foil around the batteries, and even to conductive fabric harness pouches.
> 
> And then, after we got happy with our fixes, we suddenly began having many
> field failures, dead batteries everywhere! It seems that we had changed
> battery vendors, and the new vendor had an internal design that was an
> extremely good RF detector. Batteries could be killed with only a few V/M
> (you could get 10 V/M from a cell phone at 6-foot separation, and anyway,
> 461 defined a 50 V/M requirement)! Investigation revealed that the batteries
> were also very position and polarization sensitive; they might survive 50
> V/M from the front, but roll them 90 degrees and expose the back, and the
> microprocessor goes to silicon heaven in microseconds. The culprit turned
> out to be the wiring for inter-cell temperature sensors; these fed the RF
> directly into the microprocessor. During the course of one investigation, I
> was directed to expose 25 batteries to varying positional and RF level
> exposures; not one battery was alive by the time I was up to 20 V/M. It was
> like testing fuses. We got that problem under control by going back to the
> old vendor, and fortunately, since the batteries were designed to be easily
> replaceable, there was no major field-fix problem.
> 
> Since that was over 5 years ago, I would hope that smart battery vendors
> would have become much more familiar with RF techniques and have hardened
> their designs to withstand the commercial and military environments. OK,
> this turned into a war story, but the lesson is that a smart battery now has
> every EMC vulnerability itself, and has to be tested in every operational
> and support mode associated with your product.
> 
> 
> Ed Price
> El Cajon, CA
> USA
>  
> 
> -Original Message-
> From: Brian Oconnell [mailto:oconne...@tamuracorp.com]
> Sent: Wednesday, August 22, 2012 1:47 PM
> To: EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG
> Subject: Re: [PSES] "Smart" Batteries
> 
> Ken

Re: [PSES] "Smart" Batteries

[John Woodgate]

In message , dated Thu, 23 
Aug 2012, Ken Javor  writes:


And that is what my post addressed by stating that the battery during 
test is performing its intrinsic function of storing and dispensing 
electrical energy.


OK, all that means is that in Europe it has to carry a CE mark in its 
own right for EMC as well as for any other applicable Directives.

--
OOO - Own Opinions Only. Try www.jmwa.demon.co.uk and www.isce.org.uk
Instead of saying that the government is doing too little, too late or too
much, too early, say they've got is exactly right, thus throwing them into
total confusion.
John Woodgate, J M Woodgate and Associates, Rayleigh, Essex UK

-

This message is from the IEEE Product Safety Engineering Society emc-pstc discussion 
list. To post a message to the list, send your e-mail to 

All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at:
http://www.ieee-pses.org/emc-pstc.html

Attachments are not permitted but the IEEE PSES Online Communities site at 
http://product-compliance.oc.ieee.org/ can be used for graphics (in well-used 
formats), large files, etc.

Website:  http://www.ieee-pses.org/
Instructions:  http://listserv.ieee.org/request/user-guide.html
List rules: http://www.ieee-pses.org/listrules.html

For help, send mail to the list administrators:
Scott Douglas 
Mike Cantwell 

For policy questions, send mail to:
Jim Bacher:  
David Heald: 

Re: [PSES] "Smart" Batteries

[Conway, Patrick]

 It was like testing fuses 

Exactly!  Most smart-batteries have non-resettable fuses designed to be tripped 
by over-temp.  Originally thought to protect the chemistry from reaching 
ignition temps.  But as Ed found, also a very good one-time RF detector!

//
Patrick 

-Original Message-
From: Ed Price [mailto:edpr...@cox.net] 
Sent: Thursday, August 23, 2012 1:21 PM
To: EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG
Subject: Re: [PSES] "Smart" Batteries

At my previous employer, we began using "smart" batteries around 6 years
ago. These batteries were mounted into a soldier-worn fabric harness, and
were the power source for both the optical detectors & signal processing
equipment, plus the pulsed 20 Watt peak RF data transceiver. Batteries were
charged in a shop environment, then plugged into the soldier harnesses and
used in the operational environment for a few days (either before the
training scenario ended or a fresh battery was installed). Thus, MIL-STD-461
dictated testing in two environments; the stringent operational environment
(imagine a squad hopping on a helicopter, with all transceivers chirping
away and subject to the airborne RF environment) and the much less stringent
charging environment (imagine the corner of a storage shed, with a few dozen
batteries sitting in charging trays).

The first time I encountered these batteries, I didn't realize that they had
built-in microprocessors that never turned off. In addition to the normal
"user" noise problems, I now had what had always been considered to be a
passive device contributing its own EMC problems.

One interesting thing was that these "smart" batteries had a rather
long-period, short duration mode in which the battery brains would call for
a capacity test that created a quick noise burst. Another problem was that
the battery manufacturers were (initially) very EMC naive; no shielding,
long internal sensor leads that acted like little antennas and fed directly
into microprocessor inputs, apparently no history of ever doing any previous
component-level EMC investigation.

So these batteries had emission and immunity problems all by themselves, and
we had to adopt several less-than perfect fixes in order to use them. We
went through powerline filtering, discrete harness pouch shields, wrapping
foil around the batteries, and even to conductive fabric harness pouches.

And then, after we got happy with our fixes, we suddenly began having many
field failures, dead batteries everywhere! It seems that we had changed
battery vendors, and the new vendor had an internal design that was an
extremely good RF detector. Batteries could be killed with only a few V/M
(you could get 10 V/M from a cell phone at 6-foot separation, and anyway,
461 defined a 50 V/M requirement)! Investigation revealed that the batteries
were also very position and polarization sensitive; they might survive 50
V/M from the front, but roll them 90 degrees and expose the back, and the
microprocessor goes to silicon heaven in microseconds. The culprit turned
out to be the wiring for inter-cell temperature sensors; these fed the RF
directly into the microprocessor. During the course of one investigation, I
was directed to expose 25 batteries to varying positional and RF level
exposures; not one battery was alive by the time I was up to 20 V/M. It was
like testing fuses. We got that problem under control by going back to the
old vendor, and fortunately, since the batteries were designed to be easily
replaceable, there was no major field-fix problem. 

Since that was over 5 years ago, I would hope that smart battery vendors
would have become much more familiar with RF techniques and have hardened
their designs to withstand the commercial and military environments. OK,
this turned into a war story, but the lesson is that a smart battery now has
every EMC vulnerability itself, and has to be tested in every operational
and support mode associated with your product.


Ed Price
El Cajon, CA
USA
 

-Original Message-
From: Brian Oconnell [mailto:oconne...@tamuracorp.com] 
Sent: Wednesday, August 22, 2012 1:47 PM
To: EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG
Subject: Re: [PSES] "Smart" Batteries

Ken,

For MS461, did you test the batteries as a seperate item, or as part of a
charger or the end-use unit?

Brian

-Original Message-
From: emc-p...@ieee.org [mailto:emc-p...@ieee.org]On Behalf Of Ken Javor
Sent: Wednesday, August 22, 2012 10:55 AM
To: emc-p...@ieee.org
Subject: Re: "Smart" Batteries

Not what you personally are looking for, but in the military world
MIL-STD-461 applies to such batteries just as to any other item that
contains electronics.  I have tested them and found them susceptible, albeit
at field intensities much higher than required in the commercial world.

Ken Javor
Phone: (256) 650-5261



From: 
Date: Wed, 22 Aug 2012 11:43:03 -0500
To: 
Subject: "Smart" Batteries

Can someone tell me if there are 

Re: [PSES] "Smart" Batteries

[Ken Javor]

And that is what my post addressed by stating that the battery during test
is performing its intrinsic function of storing and dispensing electrical
energy.  In my experience, these batteries control themselves and do not
need an external interface to provide functionality, or control of charging
or discharging or anything else. The internal circuitry senses current into
or out of the battery, as well as charging potential, and if any of these or
internal temperature exceeds limits, it shuts down.
  
Ken Javor
Phone: (256) 650-5261


> From: John Woodgate 
> Date: Thu, 23 Aug 2012 20:23:09 +0100
> To: 
> Subject: Re: [PSES] "Smart" Batteries
> 
> In message , dated Thu, 23
> Aug 2012, Ken Javor  writes:
> 
>> Admittedly beyond my area of expertise discussing what ?intrinsic
>> function? means in a legalistic sense,
> 
> It is vague, but here it means that the smart battery by itself isn't
> usable for anything except a paperweight. It only acts as a battery when
> it's inside a portable computer or the like that can whisper the
> requisite magic words into its connector.
> -- 
> OOO - Own Opinions Only. Try www.jmwa.demon.co.uk and www.isce.org.uk
> Instead of saying that the government is doing too little, too late or too
> much, too early, say they've got is exactly right, thus throwing them into
> total confusion.
> John Woodgate, J M Woodgate and Associates, Rayleigh, Essex UK
> 
> -
> 
> This message is from the IEEE Product Safety Engineering Society emc-pstc
> discussion list. To post a message to the list, send your e-mail to
> 
> 
> All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at:
> http://www.ieee-pses.org/emc-pstc.html
> 
> Attachments are not permitted but the IEEE PSES Online Communities site at
> http://product-compliance.oc.ieee.org/ can be used for graphics (in well-used
> formats), large files, etc.
> 
> Website:  http://www.ieee-pses.org/
> Instructions:  http://listserv.ieee.org/request/user-guide.html
> List rules: http://www.ieee-pses.org/listrules.html
> 
> For help, send mail to the list administrators:
> Scott Douglas 
> Mike Cantwell 
> 
> For policy questions, send mail to:
> Jim Bacher:  
> David Heald: 

-

This message is from the IEEE Product Safety Engineering Society emc-pstc 
discussion list. To post a message to the list, send your e-mail to 


All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at:
http://www.ieee-pses.org/emc-pstc.html

Attachments are not permitted but the IEEE PSES Online Communities site at 
http://product-compliance.oc.ieee.org/ can be used for graphics (in well-used 
formats), large files, etc.

Website:  http://www.ieee-pses.org/
Instructions:  http://listserv.ieee.org/request/user-guide.html
List rules: http://www.ieee-pses.org/listrules.html

For help, send mail to the list administrators:
Scott Douglas 
Mike Cantwell 

For policy questions, send mail to:
Jim Bacher:  
David Heald: 

Re: [PSES] "Smart" Batteries

[Ed Price]

The smart batteries that I have seen never completely turned off; they
always had a little "watchdog" timer running which would periodically wake
up the rest of the battery's brains and do some periodic housekeeping and/or
internal testing.

>From the battery's point of view, it had three operational modes; charging
in a charger, discharging in a user device, and transport / storage (where
it sort of hung out maintaining the capability to maintain the capability).

Ed Price
El Cajon, CA
USA
 


-Original Message-
From: John Woodgate [mailto:j...@jmwa.demon.co.uk] 
Sent: Thursday, August 23, 2012 12:23 PM
To: EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG
Subject: Re: [PSES] "Smart" Batteries

In message , dated Thu, 23 Aug
2012, Ken Javor  writes:

>Admittedly beyond my area of expertise discussing what ?intrinsic 
>function? means in a legalistic sense,

It is vague, but here it means that the smart battery by itself isn't usable
for anything except a paperweight. It only acts as a battery when it's
inside a portable computer or the like that can whisper the requisite magic
words into its connector.
--
OOO - Own Opinions Only. Try www.jmwa.demon.co.uk and www.isce.org.uk
Instead of saying that the government is doing too little, too late or too
much, too early, say they've got is exactly right, thus throwing them into
total confusion.
John Woodgate, J M Woodgate and Associates, Rayleigh, Essex UK

>

-

This message is from the IEEE Product Safety Engineering Society emc-pstc 
discussion list. To post a message to the list, send your e-mail to 


All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at:
http://www.ieee-pses.org/emc-pstc.html

Attachments are not permitted but the IEEE PSES Online Communities site at 
http://product-compliance.oc.ieee.org/ can be used for graphics (in well-used 
formats), large files, etc.

Website:  http://www.ieee-pses.org/
Instructions:  http://listserv.ieee.org/request/user-guide.html
List rules: http://www.ieee-pses.org/listrules.html

For help, send mail to the list administrators:
Scott Douglas 
Mike Cantwell 

For policy questions, send mail to:
Jim Bacher:  
David Heald: 

Re: [PSES] "Smart" Batteries

[Ken Javor]

Ed nails it again!

I used a homebrew parallel plate and illuminated the batteries in all three
orientations relative to the vertical electric field.

And it's not terribly surprising that battery manufacturers don't have a lot
of EMC experience.  They never needed to consider it previously.
  
Ken Javor
Phone: (256) 650-5261


> From: Ed Price 
> Organization: ESP Labs
> Reply-To: 
> Date: Thu, 23 Aug 2012 12:20:37 -0700
> To: 
> Subject: RE: [PSES] "Smart" Batteries
> 
> At my previous employer, we began using "smart" batteries around 6 years
> ago. These batteries were mounted into a soldier-worn fabric harness, and
> were the power source for both the optical detectors & signal processing
> equipment, plus the pulsed 20 Watt peak RF data transceiver. Batteries were
> charged in a shop environment, then plugged into the soldier harnesses and
> used in the operational environment for a few days (either before the
> training scenario ended or a fresh battery was installed). Thus, MIL-STD-461
> dictated testing in two environments; the stringent operational environment
> (imagine a squad hopping on a helicopter, with all transceivers chirping
> away and subject to the airborne RF environment) and the much less stringent
> charging environment (imagine the corner of a storage shed, with a few dozen
> batteries sitting in charging trays).
> 
> The first time I encountered these batteries, I didn't realize that they had
> built-in microprocessors that never turned off. In addition to the normal
> "user" noise problems, I now had what had always been considered to be a
> passive device contributing its own EMC problems.
> 
> One interesting thing was that these "smart" batteries had a rather
> long-period, short duration mode in which the battery brains would call for
> a capacity test that created a quick noise burst. Another problem was that
> the battery manufacturers were (initially) very EMC naive; no shielding,
> long internal sensor leads that acted like little antennas and fed directly
> into microprocessor inputs, apparently no history of ever doing any previous
> component-level EMC investigation.
> 
> So these batteries had emission and immunity problems all by themselves, and
> we had to adopt several less-than perfect fixes in order to use them. We
> went through powerline filtering, discrete harness pouch shields, wrapping
> foil around the batteries, and even to conductive fabric harness pouches.
> 
> And then, after we got happy with our fixes, we suddenly began having many
> field failures, dead batteries everywhere! It seems that we had changed
> battery vendors, and the new vendor had an internal design that was an
> extremely good RF detector. Batteries could be killed with only a few V/M
> (you could get 10 V/M from a cell phone at 6-foot separation, and anyway,
> 461 defined a 50 V/M requirement)! Investigation revealed that the batteries
> were also very position and polarization sensitive; they might survive 50
> V/M from the front, but roll them 90 degrees and expose the back, and the
> microprocessor goes to silicon heaven in microseconds. The culprit turned
> out to be the wiring for inter-cell temperature sensors; these fed the RF
> directly into the microprocessor. During the course of one investigation, I
> was directed to expose 25 batteries to varying positional and RF level
> exposures; not one battery was alive by the time I was up to 20 V/M. It was
> like testing fuses. We got that problem under control by going back to the
> old vendor, and fortunately, since the batteries were designed to be easily
> replaceable, there was no major field-fix problem.
> 
> Since that was over 5 years ago, I would hope that smart battery vendors
> would have become much more familiar with RF techniques and have hardened
> their designs to withstand the commercial and military environments. OK,
> this turned into a war story, but the lesson is that a smart battery now has
> every EMC vulnerability itself, and has to be tested in every operational
> and support mode associated with your product.
> 
> 
> Ed Price
> El Cajon, CA
> USA
>  
> 
> -Original Message-
> From: Brian Oconnell [mailto:oconne...@tamuracorp.com]
> Sent: Wednesday, August 22, 2012 1:47 PM
> To: EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG
> Subject: Re: [PSES] "Smart" Batteries
> 
> Ken,
> 
> For MS461, did you test the batteries as a seperate item, or as part of a
> charger or the end-use unit?
> 
> Brian
> 
> -Original Message-
> From: emc-p...@ieee.org [mailto:emc-p...@ieee.org]On Behalf Of Ken Javor
> Sent: Wednesday, August 22, 2012 10:55 AM
> To: emc-p...@ieee.org
> Subject: Re: "Smart" Ba

Re: [PSES] "Smart" Batteries

[John Woodgate]

In message , dated Thu, 23 
Aug 2012, Ken Javor  writes:


Admittedly beyond my area of expertise discussing what ?intrinsic 
function? means in a legalistic sense,


It is vague, but here it means that the smart battery by itself isn't 
usable for anything except a paperweight. It only acts as a battery when 
it's inside a portable computer or the like that can whisper the 
requisite magic words into its connector.

--
OOO - Own Opinions Only. Try www.jmwa.demon.co.uk and www.isce.org.uk
Instead of saying that the government is doing too little, too late or too
much, too early, say they've got is exactly right, thus throwing them into
total confusion.
John Woodgate, J M Woodgate and Associates, Rayleigh, Essex UK

-

This message is from the IEEE Product Safety Engineering Society emc-pstc discussion 
list. To post a message to the list, send your e-mail to 

All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at:
http://www.ieee-pses.org/emc-pstc.html

Attachments are not permitted but the IEEE PSES Online Communities site at 
http://product-compliance.oc.ieee.org/ can be used for graphics (in well-used 
formats), large files, etc.

Website:  http://www.ieee-pses.org/
Instructions:  http://listserv.ieee.org/request/user-guide.html
List rules: http://www.ieee-pses.org/listrules.html

For help, send mail to the list administrators:
Scott Douglas 
Mike Cantwell 

For policy questions, send mail to:
Jim Bacher:  
David Heald: 

Re: [PSES] "Smart" Batteries

[Ed Price]

At my previous employer, we began using "smart" batteries around 6 years
ago. These batteries were mounted into a soldier-worn fabric harness, and
were the power source for both the optical detectors & signal processing
equipment, plus the pulsed 20 Watt peak RF data transceiver. Batteries were
charged in a shop environment, then plugged into the soldier harnesses and
used in the operational environment for a few days (either before the
training scenario ended or a fresh battery was installed). Thus, MIL-STD-461
dictated testing in two environments; the stringent operational environment
(imagine a squad hopping on a helicopter, with all transceivers chirping
away and subject to the airborne RF environment) and the much less stringent
charging environment (imagine the corner of a storage shed, with a few dozen
batteries sitting in charging trays).

The first time I encountered these batteries, I didn't realize that they had
built-in microprocessors that never turned off. In addition to the normal
"user" noise problems, I now had what had always been considered to be a
passive device contributing its own EMC problems.

One interesting thing was that these "smart" batteries had a rather
long-period, short duration mode in which the battery brains would call for
a capacity test that created a quick noise burst. Another problem was that
the battery manufacturers were (initially) very EMC naive; no shielding,
long internal sensor leads that acted like little antennas and fed directly
into microprocessor inputs, apparently no history of ever doing any previous
component-level EMC investigation.

So these batteries had emission and immunity problems all by themselves, and
we had to adopt several less-than perfect fixes in order to use them. We
went through powerline filtering, discrete harness pouch shields, wrapping
foil around the batteries, and even to conductive fabric harness pouches.

And then, after we got happy with our fixes, we suddenly began having many
field failures, dead batteries everywhere! It seems that we had changed
battery vendors, and the new vendor had an internal design that was an
extremely good RF detector. Batteries could be killed with only a few V/M
(you could get 10 V/M from a cell phone at 6-foot separation, and anyway,
461 defined a 50 V/M requirement)! Investigation revealed that the batteries
were also very position and polarization sensitive; they might survive 50
V/M from the front, but roll them 90 degrees and expose the back, and the
microprocessor goes to silicon heaven in microseconds. The culprit turned
out to be the wiring for inter-cell temperature sensors; these fed the RF
directly into the microprocessor. During the course of one investigation, I
was directed to expose 25 batteries to varying positional and RF level
exposures; not one battery was alive by the time I was up to 20 V/M. It was
like testing fuses. We got that problem under control by going back to the
old vendor, and fortunately, since the batteries were designed to be easily
replaceable, there was no major field-fix problem. 

Since that was over 5 years ago, I would hope that smart battery vendors
would have become much more familiar with RF techniques and have hardened
their designs to withstand the commercial and military environments. OK,
this turned into a war story, but the lesson is that a smart battery now has
every EMC vulnerability itself, and has to be tested in every operational
and support mode associated with your product.


Ed Price
El Cajon, CA
USA
 

-Original Message-
From: Brian Oconnell [mailto:oconne...@tamuracorp.com] 
Sent: Wednesday, August 22, 2012 1:47 PM
To: EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG
Subject: Re: [PSES] "Smart" Batteries

Ken,

For MS461, did you test the batteries as a seperate item, or as part of a
charger or the end-use unit?

Brian

-Original Message-
From: emc-p...@ieee.org [mailto:emc-p...@ieee.org]On Behalf Of Ken Javor
Sent: Wednesday, August 22, 2012 10:55 AM
To: emc-p...@ieee.org
Subject: Re: "Smart" Batteries

Not what you personally are looking for, but in the military world
MIL-STD-461 applies to such batteries just as to any other item that
contains electronics.  I have tested them and found them susceptible, albeit
at field intensities much higher than required in the commercial world.

Ken Javor
Phone: (256) 650-5261



From: 
Date: Wed, 22 Aug 2012 11:43:03 -0500
To: 
Subject: "Smart" Batteries

Can someone tell me if there are any EMC standards for the so-called "smart"
batteries? These are batteries that communication with the charger or EUT
for charge rates, time left, overheating, etc.

Thanks,
Bob Heller
St. Paul, MN 55107-1208
Tel: 651-778-6336
Fax: 651-778-6252

-

This message is from the IEEE Product Safety Engineering Society emc-pstc
discussion list. To post a message to the list, send your e-

Re: [PSES] "Smart" Batteries

[Ken Javor]

Admittedly beyond my area of expertise discussing what ³intrinsic function²
means in a legalistic sense, but from a technical point-of-view, the
intrinsic function of a battery is to store and dispense electrical energy.
  
Ken Javor
Phone: (256) 650-5261



From: "Conway, Patrick" 
Date: Thu, 23 Aug 2012 11:26:02 -0600
To: Ken Javor , 
Conversation: [PSES] "Smart" Batteries
Subject: RE: [PSES] "Smart" Batteries

Another difference is ³tested²  vs. ³qualified².
 
In the MIL world the emc testing of a stand-alone smart-battery *may be*
used for qualification, depending on the procurement.
In the commercial world the emc testing of a stand-alone smart-battery
*cannot be* used for qualification, due to the lack of intrinsic function.
 

//
Patrick 
 

From: Ken Javor [mailto:ken.ja...@emccompliance.com]
Sent: Thursday, August 23, 2012 11:02 AM
To: EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG
Subject: Re: [PSES] "Smart" Batteries
 
The difference is that in the case of stand-alone batteries, they are
qualified without connection to ³the equipment in which they are meant to be
used... .²  Instead, they are connected to a generic load representative of
in situ current draw, and a fixed potential charging source with fixed low
output resistance.
  
Ken Javor
Phone: (256) 650-5261


From: Bill Owsley 
Reply-To: Bill Owsley 
Date: Thu, 23 Aug 2012 09:51:30 -0700 (PDT)
To: Ken Javor , "emc-p...@ieee.org"

Subject: Re: "Smart" Batteries

It must be in the syntax, but it seems these two just agreed on the subject.

  
 
 
  


 From: Ken Javor 
 To: emc-p...@ieee.org
 Sent: Thursday, August 23, 2012 12:34 PM
 Subject: Re: "Smart" Batteries
  
 
Re: "Smart" Batteries
That is simply not true in the general case.  What about a 28 Vdc battery
that backs up the essential bus on an aircraft? What about a MANPACK battery
that is discharged while being worn, and connected to a mains or
generated-powered charger after the mission is over.

In the commercial world, what about a battery designed to be used in an UPS?
I have purchased several replacement batteries designed to replace the OEM
battery in same.
  
Ken Javor
Phone: (256) 650-5261


From: Cortland Richmond 
Reply-To: 
Date: Thu, 23 Aug 2012 11:58:15 -0400
To: 
Subject: Re: "Smart" Batteries

   
"Smart" batteries are electronic subassemblies that don't work properly
outside of the equipment in which they are meant to be used and must be
tested in it.
 
 Cortland Richmond
 
 On 8/22/2012 1243, rehel...@mmm.com wrote:
 
 
Can someone tell me if there are any EMC standards for the so-called "smart"
batteries? These are batteries that communication with the charger or EUT
for charge rates, time left, overheating, etc.
 
 Thanks,
 Bob Heller
 St. Paul, MN 55107-1208
 Tel: 651-778-6336
 Fax: 651-778-6252
 

 -


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Re: [PSES] "Smart" Batteries

[Conway, Patrick]

Another difference is "tested"  vs. "qualified".

 

In the MIL world the emc testing of a stand-alone smart-battery *may be*
used for qualification, depending on the procurement.

In the commercial world the emc testing of a stand-alone smart-battery
*cannot be* used for qualification, due to the lack of intrinsic
function.

 

//

Patrick 

 

From: Ken Javor [mailto:ken.ja...@emccompliance.com] 
Sent: Thursday, August 23, 2012 11:02 AM
To: EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG
Subject: Re: [PSES] "Smart" Batteries

 

The difference is that in the case of stand-alone batteries, they are
qualified without connection to "the equipment in which they are meant
to be used... ."  Instead, they are connected to a generic load
representative of in situ current draw, and a fixed potential charging
source with fixed low output resistance.
  
Ken Javor
Phone: (256) 650-5261





From: Bill Owsley 
Reply-To: Bill Owsley 
Date: Thu, 23 Aug 2012 09:51:30 -0700 (PDT)
To: Ken Javor , "emc-p...@ieee.org"

Subject: Re: "Smart" Batteries

It must be in the syntax, but it seems these two just agreed on the
subject.

  
 
 
  



 From: Ken Javor 
 To: emc-p...@ieee.org 
 Sent: Thursday, August 23, 2012 12:34 PM
 Subject: Re: "Smart" Batteries
  
 
Re: "Smart" Batteries 
That is simply not true in the general case.  What about a 28 Vdc
battery that backs up the essential bus on an aircraft? What about a
MANPACK battery that is discharged while being worn, and connected to a
mains or generated-powered charger after the mission is over.

In the commercial world, what about a battery designed to be used in an
UPS? I have purchased several replacement batteries designed to replace
the OEM battery in same.
  
Ken Javor
Phone: (256) 650-5261





From: Cortland Richmond 
Reply-To: 
Date: Thu, 23 Aug 2012 11:58:15 -0400
To: 
Subject: Re: "Smart" Batteries

   
"Smart" batteries are electronic subassemblies that don't work properly
outside of the equipment in which they are meant to be used and must be
tested in it.
 
 Cortland Richmond
 
 On 8/22/2012 1243, rehel...@mmm.com wrote:
 
 

Can someone tell me if there are any EMC standards for the so-called
"smart" batteries? These are batteries that communication with the
charger or EUT for charge rates, time left, overheating, etc. 
 
 Thanks,
 Bob Heller
 St. Paul, MN 55107-1208
 Tel: 651-778-6336
 Fax: 651-778-6252
 


 -


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Re: [PSES] "Smart" Batteries

[Ken Javor]

The difference is that in the case of stand-alone batteries, they are
qualified without connection to ³the equipment in which they are meant to be
used... .²  Instead, they are connected to a generic load representative of
in situ current draw, and a fixed potential charging source with fixed low
output resistance.
  
Ken Javor
Phone: (256) 650-5261



From: Bill Owsley 
Reply-To: Bill Owsley 
Date: Thu, 23 Aug 2012 09:51:30 -0700 (PDT)
To: Ken Javor , "emc-p...@ieee.org"

Subject: Re: "Smart" Batteries

It must be in the syntax, but it seems these two just agreed on the subject.

  
 
 
  

  From: Ken Javor 
 To: emc-p...@ieee.org
 Sent: Thursday, August 23, 2012 12:34 PM
 Subject: Re: "Smart" Batteries
  
 
Re: "Smart" Batteries
That is simply not true in the general case.  What about a 28 Vdc battery
that backs up the essential bus on an aircraft? What about a MANPACK battery
that is discharged while being worn, and connected to a mains or
generated-powered charger after the mission is over.

In the commercial world, what about a battery designed to be used in an UPS?
I have purchased several replacement batteries designed to replace the OEM
battery in same.
  
Ken Javor
Phone: (256) 650-5261



From: Cortland Richmond 
Reply-To: 
Date: Thu, 23 Aug 2012 11:58:15 -0400
To: 
Subject: Re: "Smart" Batteries

   
"Smart" batteries are electronic subassemblies that don't work properly
outside of the equipment in which they are meant to be used and must be
tested in it.
 
 Cortland Richmond
 
 On 8/22/2012 1243, rehel...@mmm.com wrote:
 
 
> Can someone tell me if there are any EMC standards for the so-called "smart"
> batteries? These are batteries that communication with the charger or EUT for
> charge rates, time left, overheating, etc.
>  
>  Thanks,
>  Bob Heller
>  St. Paul, MN 55107-1208
>  Tel: 651-778-6336
>  Fax: 651-778-6252
>  
 
 -


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Re: [PSES] "Smart" Batteries

[Bill Owsley]

It must be in the syntax, but it seems these two just agreed on the subject.



 From: Ken Javor 
To: emc-p...@ieee.org 
Sent: Thursday, August 23, 2012 12:34 PM
Subject: Re: "Smart" Batteries
 

Re: "Smart" Batteries 
That is simply not true in the general case.  What about a 28 Vdc battery that 
backs up the essential bus on an aircraft? What about a MANPACK battery that is 
discharged while being worn, and connected to a mains or generated-powered 
charger after the mission is over.

In the commercial world, what about a battery designed to be used in an UPS? I 
have purchased several replacement batteries designed to replace the OEM 
battery in same.
  
Ken Javor
Phone: (256) 650-5261



From: Cortland Richmond 
Reply-To: 
Date: Thu, 23 Aug 2012 11:58:15 -0400
To: 
Subject: Re: "Smart" Batteries

   
"Smart" batteries are electronic subassemblies that don't work properly outside 
of the equipment in which they are meant to be used and must be tested in it.
 
 Cortland Richmond
 
 On 8/22/2012 1243, rehel...@mmm.com wrote:
 
 

Can someone tell me if there are any EMC standards for the so-called "smart" 
batteries? These are batteries that communication with the charger or EUT for 
charge rates, time left, overheating, etc. 
> 
> Thanks,
> Bob Heller
> St. Paul, MN 55107-1208
> Tel: 651-778-6336
> Fax: 651-778-6252
> 
>
 -


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Re: [PSES] "Smart" Batteries

[Ken Javor]

That is simply not true in the general case.  What about a 28 Vdc battery
that backs up the essential bus on an aircraft? What about a MANPACK battery
that is discharged while being worn, and connected to a mains or
generated-powered charger after the mission is over.

In the commercial world, what about a battery designed to be used in an UPS?
I have purchased several replacement batteries designed to replace the OEM
battery in same.
  
Ken Javor
Phone: (256) 650-5261



From: Cortland Richmond 
Reply-To: 
Date: Thu, 23 Aug 2012 11:58:15 -0400
To: 
Subject: Re: "Smart" Batteries

   
"Smart" batteries are electronic subassemblies that don't work properly
outside of the equipment in which they are meant to be used and must be
tested in it.
 
 Cortland Richmond
 
 On 8/22/2012 1243, rehel...@mmm.com wrote:
 
 
> Can someone tell me if there are any EMC standards for the so-called "smart"
> batteries? These are batteries that communication with the charger or EUT for
> charge rates, time left, overheating, etc.
>  
>  Thanks,
>  Bob Heller
>  St. Paul, MN 55107-1208
>  Tel: 651-778-6336
>  Fax: 651-778-6252
>  
 
 -


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Re: [PSES] "Smart" Batteries

[Cortland Richmond]

"Smart" batteries are electronic subassemblies that don't work properly 
outside of the equipment in which they are meant to be used and must be 
tested in it.


Cortland Richmond

On 8/22/2012 1243, rehel...@mmm.com wrote:
Can someone tell me if there are any EMC standards for the so-called 
"smart" batteries? These are batteries that communication with the 
charger or EUT for charge rates, time left, overheating, etc.


Thanks,
Bob Heller
St. Paul, MN 55107-1208
Tel: 651-778-6336
Fax: 651-778-6252



-

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Re: [PSES] "Smart" Batteries

[Ken Javor]

MIL-STD-461, like every other such standard, requires that the test sample
be tested the way it is used.  In the case of a battery that means being
charged, or discharged.  So the test had the battery charging until full,
then discharging until a certain potential was reached, and then charging
again. At all times a permanent magnet moving coil (d¹Arsonval) meter was
used to monitor both battery potential and current (charging or
discharging).  
  
Ken Javor
Phone: (256) 650-5261



From: 
Date: Thu, 23 Aug 2012 06:01:16 -0500
To: Ken Javor 
Cc: 
Subject: Re: "Smart" Batteries

Does 461 give you the test setup with loads et al?

Bob Heller
3M EMC Laboratory, 76-1-01
St. Paul, MN 55107-1208
Tel: 651-778-6336
Fax: 651-778-6252
=




From:   Ken Javor 
To:   
Date:   08/22/2012 04:03 PM
Subject:   Re: "Smart" Batteries
Sent by:   emc-p...@ieee.org




In both cases, the battery was procured as a separate item, so it was tested
that way.
  
Ken Javor
Phone: (256) 650-5261


> From: Brian Oconnell 
> Reply-To: 
> Date: Wed, 22 Aug 2012 13:46:31 -0700
> To: 
> Subject: RE: "Smart" Batteries
> 
> Ken,
> 
> For MS461, did you test the batteries as a seperate item, or as part of a
> charger or the end-use unit?
> 
> Brian
> 
> -Original Message-
> From: emc-p...@ieee.org [mailto:emc-p...@ieee.org 
]On Behalf Of Ken Javor
> Sent: Wednesday, August 22, 2012 10:55 AM
> To: emc-p...@ieee.org
> Subject: Re: "Smart" Batteries
> 
> Not what you personally are looking for, but in the military world
> MIL-STD-461 applies to such batteries just as to any other item that
> contains electronics.  I have tested them and found them susceptible, albeit
> at field intensities much higher than required in the commercial world.
> 
> Ken Javor
> Phone: (256) 650-5261
> 
> 
> 
> From: 
> Date: Wed, 22 Aug 2012 11:43:03 -0500
> To: 
> Subject: "Smart" Batteries
> 
> Can someone tell me if there are any EMC standards for the so-called "smart"
> batteries? These are batteries that communication with the charger or EUT
> for charge rates, time left, overheating, etc.
> 
> Thanks,
> Bob Heller
> St. Paul, MN 55107-1208
> Tel: 651-778-6336
> Fax: 651-778-6252
> 
> -
> 
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 can be used for graphics (in well-used
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Re: [PSES] "Smart" Batteries

[Robert Heller]

Does 461 give you the test setup with loads et al?

Bob Heller
3M EMC Laboratory, 76-1-01
St. Paul, MN 55107-1208
Tel: 651-778-6336
Fax: 651-778-6252
=




From:   Ken Javor 
To: 
Date:   08/22/2012 04:03 PM
Subject:Re: "Smart" Batteries
Sent by:emc-p...@ieee.org



In both cases, the battery was procured as a separate item, so it was 
tested
that way.
 
Ken Javor
Phone: (256) 650-5261


> From: Brian Oconnell 
> Reply-To: 
> Date: Wed, 22 Aug 2012 13:46:31 -0700
> To: 
> Subject: RE: "Smart" Batteries
> 
> Ken,
> 
> For MS461, did you test the batteries as a seperate item, or as part of 
a
> charger or the end-use unit?
> 
> Brian
> 
> -Original Message-
> From: emc-p...@ieee.org [mailto:emc-p...@ieee.org]On Behalf Of Ken Javor
> Sent: Wednesday, August 22, 2012 10:55 AM
> To: emc-p...@ieee.org
> Subject: Re: "Smart" Batteries
> 
> Not what you personally are looking for, but in the military world
> MIL-STD-461 applies to such batteries just as to any other item that
> contains electronics.  I have tested them and found them susceptible, 
albeit
> at field intensities much higher than required in the commercial world.
> 
> Ken Javor
> Phone: (256) 650-5261
> 
> 
> 
> From: 
> Date: Wed, 22 Aug 2012 11:43:03 -0500
> To: 
> Subject: "Smart" Batteries
> 
> Can someone tell me if there are any EMC standards for the so-called 
"smart"
> batteries? These are batteries that communication with the charger or 
EUT
> for charge rates, time left, overheating, etc.
> 
> Thanks,
> Bob Heller
> St. Paul, MN 55107-1208
> Tel: 651-778-6336
> Fax: 651-778-6252
> 
> -
> 
> This message is from the IEEE Product Safety Engineering Society 
emc-pstc
> discussion list. To post a message to the list, send your e-mail to
> 
> 
> All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at:
> http://www.ieee-pses.org/emc-pstc.html
> 
> Attachments are not permitted but the IEEE PSES Online Communities site 
at
> http://product-compliance.oc.ieee.org/ can be used for graphics (in 
well-used
> formats), large files, etc.
> 
> Website:  http://www.ieee-pses.org/
> Instructions:  http://listserv.ieee.org/request/user-guide.html
> List rules: http://www.ieee-pses.org/listrules.html
> 
> For help, send mail to the list administrators:
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> Mike Cantwell 
> 
> For policy questions, send mail to:
> Jim Bacher:  
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-

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Re: [PSES] "Smart" Batteries

[Ken Javor]

In both cases, the battery was procured as a separate item, so it was tested
that way.
  
Ken Javor
Phone: (256) 650-5261


> From: Brian Oconnell 
> Reply-To: 
> Date: Wed, 22 Aug 2012 13:46:31 -0700
> To: 
> Subject: RE: "Smart" Batteries
> 
> Ken,
> 
> For MS461, did you test the batteries as a seperate item, or as part of a
> charger or the end-use unit?
> 
> Brian
> 
> -Original Message-
> From: emc-p...@ieee.org [mailto:emc-p...@ieee.org]On Behalf Of Ken Javor
> Sent: Wednesday, August 22, 2012 10:55 AM
> To: emc-p...@ieee.org
> Subject: Re: "Smart" Batteries
> 
> Not what you personally are looking for, but in the military world
> MIL-STD-461 applies to such batteries just as to any other item that
> contains electronics.  I have tested them and found them susceptible, albeit
> at field intensities much higher than required in the commercial world.
> 
> Ken Javor
> Phone: (256) 650-5261
> 
> 
> 
> From: 
> Date: Wed, 22 Aug 2012 11:43:03 -0500
> To: 
> Subject: "Smart" Batteries
> 
> Can someone tell me if there are any EMC standards for the so-called "smart"
> batteries? These are batteries that communication with the charger or EUT
> for charge rates, time left, overheating, etc.
> 
> Thanks,
> Bob Heller
> St. Paul, MN 55107-1208
> Tel: 651-778-6336
> Fax: 651-778-6252
> 
> -
> 
> This message is from the IEEE Product Safety Engineering Society emc-pstc
> discussion list. To post a message to the list, send your e-mail to
> 
> 
> All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at:
> http://www.ieee-pses.org/emc-pstc.html
> 
> Attachments are not permitted but the IEEE PSES Online Communities site at
> http://product-compliance.oc.ieee.org/ can be used for graphics (in well-used
> formats), large files, etc.
> 
> Website:  http://www.ieee-pses.org/
> Instructions:  http://listserv.ieee.org/request/user-guide.html
> List rules: http://www.ieee-pses.org/listrules.html
> 
> For help, send mail to the list administrators:
> Scott Douglas 
> Mike Cantwell 
> 
> For policy questions, send mail to:
> Jim Bacher:  
> David Heald: 

-

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Re: [PSES] "Smart" Batteries

[Brian Oconnell]

Ken,

For MS461, did you test the batteries as a seperate item, or as part of a
charger or the end-use unit?

Brian

-Original Message-
From: emc-p...@ieee.org [mailto:emc-p...@ieee.org]On Behalf Of Ken Javor
Sent: Wednesday, August 22, 2012 10:55 AM
To: emc-p...@ieee.org
Subject: Re: "Smart" Batteries

Not what you personally are looking for, but in the military world
MIL-STD-461 applies to such batteries just as to any other item that
contains electronics.  I have tested them and found them susceptible, albeit
at field intensities much higher than required in the commercial world.

Ken Javor
Phone: (256) 650-5261



From: 
Date: Wed, 22 Aug 2012 11:43:03 -0500
To: 
Subject: "Smart" Batteries

Can someone tell me if there are any EMC standards for the so-called "smart"
batteries? These are batteries that communication with the charger or EUT
for charge rates, time left, overheating, etc.

Thanks,
Bob Heller
St. Paul, MN 55107-1208
Tel: 651-778-6336
Fax: 651-778-6252

-

This message is from the IEEE Product Safety Engineering Society emc-pstc 
discussion list. To post a message to the list, send your e-mail to 


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Re: [PSES] "Smart" Batteries

[Ken Javor]

Not what you personally are looking for, but in the military world
MIL-STD-461 applies to such batteries just as to any other item that
contains electronics.  I have tested them and found them susceptible, albeit
at field intensities much higher than required in the commercial world.
  
Ken Javor
Phone: (256) 650-5261



From: 
Date: Wed, 22 Aug 2012 11:43:03 -0500
To: 
Subject: "Smart" Batteries

Can someone tell me if there are any EMC standards for the so-called "smart"
batteries? These are batteries that communication with the charger or EUT
for charge rates, time left, overheating, etc.

Thanks,
Bob Heller
St. Paul, MN 55107-1208
Tel: 651-778-6336
Fax: 651-778-6252

-


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discussion list. To post a message to the list, send your e-mail to


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Re: [PSES] "Smart" Batteries

[Brian Oconnell]

Reference your original thread for this subject back in June.

Have done several 'smart' battery charger projects - there does not seem to
be a singular definition or scope, and the particular EMC standard depends
on the class and type of equipment associated with the charger and/or
end-use equipment that the battery is installed.

Typically, the representative battery is tested as part of the charger's EMC
report. If the charger is embedded in another project, say hi to Alice for
me when you fall down the rabbit hole.

Brian

-Original Message-
From: emc-p...@ieee.org [mailto:emc-p...@ieee.org]On Behalf Of
rehel...@mmm.com
Sent: Wednesday, August 22, 2012 9:43 AM
To: emc-p...@ieee.org
Subject: "Smart" Batteries

Can someone tell me if there are any EMC standards for the so-called "smart"
batteries? These are batteries that communication with the charger or EUT
for charge rates, time left, overheating, etc.

Thanks,
Bob Heller
St. Paul, MN 55107-1208
Tel: 651-778-6336
Fax: 651-778-6252

-

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[PSES] "Smart" Batteries

[Robert Heller]

Can someone tell me if there are any EMC standards for the so-called 
"smart" batteries? These are batteries that communication with the charger 
or EUT for charge rates, time left, overheating, etc.

Thanks,
Bob Heller
St. Paul, MN 55107-1208
Tel: 651-778-6336
Fax: 651-778-6252


-

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RE: [PSES] Smart Batteries

[emc-p...@ieee.org]

Bob,

I am not sure if were indicating immunity only also considering emissions.
 
Apply one of the emission standards (55022 or 55011) depending on the host
product since the IC likely has an oscillator.  For immunity, apply ESD and
Radiated Immunity based on the host product.  After that you may want to
consider the host products requirements which may exceed the generic
requirements above.  Many medical host manufacturers will add to the list.  If
you search the archives, some others recently shared their experiences while
testing batteries.


Best Regards,

 

Jody Leber

SGS Consumer Testing Services

Manager, Battery Test Certification Program


SGS - U. S. Testing Company, Inc.

16870 West Bernardo Drive, Suite 250
San Diego, CA 92127 USA

Phone: 678.469.9835
Fax: 858.592.7107
E-mail:  jody.le...@sgs.com <mailto:jody.le...@sgs.com> 



From: Robert Heller [mailto:rehel...@mmm.com]
Sent: Thursday, September 17, 2009 6:58 AM
To: EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG
Subject: [PSES] Smart Batteries

What is the appropriate EMC testing standard for so-called "smart"
batteries (batteries with digital circuitry)?  Is there a specific standard
for these batteries or are the generic standards appropriate?

The stand-alone battery charger for them falls under EN 61204-3.

Thanks,
Bob Heller
3M EMC Laboratory, 76-1-01
St. Paul, MN 55107-1208
Tel:  651- 778-6336
Fax:  651-778-6252

-

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