Re: [PSES] weird stuff in agency agreement form
Not related to the specific content of this thread, but on topic for the Subject: A certain SCC/NRTL lab had asked last year for a newly signed agreement. The section on what constitutes confidential information in the new agreement explicitly excludes the name, title, business address or business phone number of employees of client. This smacks of a revenue enhancement scheme for the lab when they sell my contact information to third-parties wishing to spam me. Said lab could not be swayed to change anything in the agreement, so I didn't sign the new agreement and the lab still gladly accepts our business. Regards, Peter Tarver This email message is for the sole use of the intended recipient(s) and may contain confidential and/or privileged information. If you are not an intended recipient, you may not review, use, copy, disclose or distribute this message. If you received this message in error, please contact the sender by reply email and destroy all copies of the original message. - This message is from the IEEE Product Safety Engineering Society emc-pstc discussion list. To post a message to the list, send your e-mail to emc-p...@ieee.org All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at: http://www.ieee-pses.org/emc-pstc.html Attachments are not permitted but the IEEE PSES Online Communities site at http://product-compliance.oc.ieee.org/ can be used for graphics (in well-used formats), large files, etc. Website: http://www.ieee-pses.org/ Instructions: http://www.ieee-pses.org/list.html (including how to unsubscribe) List rules: http://www.ieee-pses.org/listrules.html For help, send mail to the list administrators: Scott Douglas emcp...@radiusnorth.net Mike Cantwell mcantw...@ieee.org For policy questions, send mail to: Jim Bacher: j.bac...@ieee.org David Heald: dhe...@gmail.com
Re: [PSES] weird stuff in agency agreement form
In message b5c2d6968392a3b287d25e55d5993...@mail.gmail.com, dated Mon, 15 Sep 2014, Peter Tarver ptar...@enphaseenergy.com writes: The section on what constitutes confidential information in the new agreement explicitly excludes the name, title, business address or business phone number of employees of client. They just might be able to squeeze a justification for business address and perhaps phone number, but passing on the other information would be a Data Protection offence in Europe. -- OOO - Own Opinions Only. With best wishes. See www.jmwa.demon.co.uk Quid faciamus nisi sit? John Woodgate, J M Woodgate and Associates, Rayleigh, Essex UK - This message is from the IEEE Product Safety Engineering Society emc-pstc discussion list. To post a message to the list, send your e-mail to emc-p...@ieee.org All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at: http://www.ieee-pses.org/emc-pstc.html Attachments are not permitted but the IEEE PSES Online Communities site at http://product-compliance.oc.ieee.org/ can be used for graphics (in well-used formats), large files, etc. Website: http://www.ieee-pses.org/ Instructions: http://www.ieee-pses.org/list.html (including how to unsubscribe) List rules: http://www.ieee-pses.org/listrules.html For help, send mail to the list administrators: Scott Douglas emcp...@radiusnorth.net Mike Cantwell mcantw...@ieee.org For policy questions, send mail to: Jim Bacher: j.bac...@ieee.org David Heald: dhe...@gmail.com
Re: [PSES] weird stuff in agency agreement form
Hello, I think Nick is correct, except that the requirement may not originate from the Notified Body directly. I was at a meeting with a Medical Directive Notified Body recently and, chatting over coffee, he mentioned that his company now needs to make these unannounced visits. A roll of the eyes and a shake of the head. A requirement of the accreditation body. I think you're correct that it comes from the breast implant issue and from what I can tell, it is all part of the duel-factory idea. A manufacturer has one sparkly nice factory in location A which is used on accreditation day; and one other factory in location B which is used for the other 364 days of the year. With the breast implant issue, I believe, I am told, that the NB had inspected the factory but the implants were not being manufactured at the factory which had been inspected. The idea is that the Notified Body must be able to turn up and check. At least, that's what I was told. Michael. Michael Derby Senior Regulatory Engineer Director ACB Europe From: Nick Williams [mailto:nick.willi...@conformance.co.uk] Sent: 11 September 2014 23:03 To: EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG Subject: Re: [PSES] weird stuff in agency agreement form I'm not a betting man, but if I were, I'd lay a few quid on this having come from an EU Notified Body which has a presence in the medical devices market. It looks very like a reaction to the PIP breast implant scandal. Think of it in the context of the NB trying to be seen to react to the lessons from that and it may make a bit more sense. Doesn't make it any more enforceable though. Nick. On 11 Sep 2014, at 19:13, Brian Oconnell oconne...@tamuracorp.com wrote: Am looking at the latest 'agency' general agreement form that all CABs make their clients sign in blood. A new clause states ... has the right to conduct unannounced audits at the manufacture's premises as well as the premises of the manufacturers component supplier and has the right to take samples. It is the obligation of the holder of the certificate to ensure that an audit at the component supplier's premises can be conducted. Unless all of my suppliers have previously signed this agreement, or if we can somehow get all of my bazillion suppliers to sign an agreement, it would seem that the test house is attempting to enforce a 'transitive' legal property. Do not see how this can fly in most North American jurisdictions. Is this something peculiar to EU law? Brian Nick Williams Director Direct line: +44 1298 873811 Mobile: +44 7702 995135 email: nick.willi...@conformance.co.uk - Conformance Ltd - Product safety, approvals and CE-marking consultants The Old Methodist Chapel, Great Hucklow, Buxton, SK17 8RG England Tel. +44 1298 873800, Fax. +44 1298 873801, www.conformance.co.uk Registered in England, Company No. 3478646 - This message is from the IEEE Product Safety Engineering Society emc-pstc discussion list. To post a message to the list, send your e-mail to emc-p...@ieee.org All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at: http://www.ieee-pses.org/emc-pstc.html Attachments are not permitted but the IEEE PSES Online Communities site at http://product-compliance.oc.ieee.org/ can be used for graphics (in well-used formats), large files, etc. Website: http://www.ieee-pses.org/ Instructions: http://www.ieee-pses.org/list.html (including how to unsubscribe) http://www.ieee-pses.org/list.html List rules: http://www.ieee-pses.org/listrules.html For help, send mail to the list administrators: Scott Douglas emcp...@radiusnorth.net Mike Cantwell mcantw...@ieee.org For policy questions, send mail to: Jim Bacher j.bac...@ieee.org David Heald dhe...@gmail.com - This message is from the IEEE Product Safety Engineering Society emc-pstc discussion list. To post a message to the list, send your e-mail to emc-p...@ieee.org All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at: http://www.ieee-pses.org/emc-pstc.html Attachments are not permitted but the IEEE PSES Online Communities site at http://product-compliance.oc.ieee.org/ can be used for graphics (in well-used formats), large files, etc. Website: http://www.ieee-pses.org/ Instructions: http://www.ieee-pses.org/list.html (including how to unsubscribe) List rules: http://www.ieee-pses.org/listrules.html For help, send mail to the list administrators: Scott Douglas emcp...@radiusnorth.net Mike Cantwell mcantw...@ieee.org For policy questions, send mail to: Jim Bacher: j.bac...@ieee.org David Heald: dhe...@gmail.com
Re: [PSES] weird stuff in agency agreement form
I’d agree that this will have been driven by the accreditation body rather than by the Notified Body themselves. It may also be worth pointing out that the opportunity for unannounced visits has always been in the Directive, it’s just that no-one ever did it. TuV Rheinland’s failure to do unannounced visits was one of the key factors in the judgement going against them in the court case which followed the scandal. The fact that there has actually been no change in the legislation may be a good arguing point when negotiating the contract renewal with the NB. Nick. On 12 Sep 2014, at 07:07, Michael Derby micha...@acbcert.com wrote: Hello, I think Nick is correct, except that the requirement may not originate from the Notified Body directly. I was at a meeting with a Medical Directive Notified Body recently and, chatting over coffee, he mentioned that his company now needs to make these unannounced visits. A roll of the eyes and a shake of the head. A requirement of the accreditation body. I think you’re correct that it comes from the breast implant issue and from what I can tell, it is all part of the duel-factory idea. A manufacturer has one sparkly nice factory in location A which is used on accreditation day; and one other factory in location B which is used for the other 364 days of the year. With the breast implant issue, I believe, I am told, that the NB had inspected the factory but the implants were not being manufactured at the factory which had been inspected. The idea is that the Notified Body must be able to turn up and check. At least, that’s what I was told. Michael. Michael Derby Senior Regulatory Engineer Director ACB Europe From: Nick Williams [mailto:nick.willi...@conformance.co.uk] Sent: 11 September 2014 23:03 To: EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG Subject: Re: [PSES] weird stuff in agency agreement form I’m not a betting man, but if I were, I’d lay a few quid on this having come from an EU Notified Body which has a presence in the medical devices market. It looks very like a reaction to the PIP breast implant scandal. Think of it in the context of the NB trying to be seen to react to the lessons from that and it may make a bit more sense. Doesn’t make it any more enforceable though. Nick. On 11 Sep 2014, at 19:13, Brian Oconnell oconne...@tamuracorp.com wrote: Am looking at the latest 'agency' general agreement form that all CABs make their clients sign in blood. A new clause states ... has the right to conduct unannounced audits at the manufacture's premises as well as the premises of the manufacturers component supplier and has the right to take samples. It is the obligation of the holder of the certificate to ensure that an audit at the component supplier's premises can be conducted. Unless all of my suppliers have previously signed this agreement, or if we can somehow get all of my bazillion suppliers to sign an agreement, it would seem that the test house is attempting to enforce a 'transitive' legal property. Do not see how this can fly in most North American jurisdictions. Is this something peculiar to EU law? Brian - This message is from the IEEE Product Safety Engineering Society emc-pstc discussion list. To post a message to the list, send your e-mail to emc-p...@ieee.org All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at: http://www.ieee-pses.org/emc-pstc.html Attachments are not permitted but the IEEE PSES Online Communities site at http://product-compliance.oc.ieee.org/ can be used for graphics (in well-used formats), large files, etc. Website: http://www.ieee-pses.org/ Instructions: http://www.ieee-pses.org/list.html (including how to unsubscribe) List rules: http://www.ieee-pses.org/listrules.html For help, send mail to the list administrators: Scott Douglas emcp...@radiusnorth.net Mike Cantwell mcantw...@ieee.org For policy questions, send mail to: Jim Bacher: j.bac...@ieee.org David Heald: dhe...@gmail.com
Re: [PSES] weird stuff in agency agreement form
In message 80ca2086-8589-4b72-83fe-a248e5e52...@conformance.co.uk, dated Fri, 12 Sep 2014, Nick Williams nick.willi...@conformance.co.uk writes: I’d agree that this will have been driven by the accreditation body rather than by the Notified Body themselves. It may also be worth pointing out that the opportunity for unannounced visits has always been in the Directive, Which Directive? it’s just that no-one ever did it. The point, surely, is that a manufacturer can agree that the NB can make unannounced visits to his premises, but no way can he agree to the NB making unannounced visits to his suppliers. He has no legal authority to give such an undertaking. If the NB wants to do that, it (not the manufacturer) has to make a legal agreement with each supplier. -- OOO - Own Opinions Only. With best wishes. See www.jmwa.demon.co.uk Quid faciamus nisi sit? John Woodgate, J M Woodgate and Associates, Rayleigh, Essex UK - This message is from the IEEE Product Safety Engineering Society emc-pstc discussion list. To post a message to the list, send your e-mail to emc-p...@ieee.org All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at: http://www.ieee-pses.org/emc-pstc.html Attachments are not permitted but the IEEE PSES Online Communities site at http://product-compliance.oc.ieee.org/ can be used for graphics (in well-used formats), large files, etc. Website: http://www.ieee-pses.org/ Instructions: http://www.ieee-pses.org/list.html (including how to unsubscribe) List rules: http://www.ieee-pses.org/listrules.html For help, send mail to the list administrators: Scott Douglas emcp...@radiusnorth.net Mike Cantwell mcantw...@ieee.org For policy questions, send mail to: Jim Bacher: j.bac...@ieee.org David Heald: dhe...@gmail.com
Re: [PSES] weird stuff in agency agreement form
On 9/12/2014 2:07 AM, Michael Derby wrote: I think you're correct that it comes from the breast implant issue and from what I can tell, it is all part of the duel-factory idea. This smacks of push-back by inspecting agencies wanting to get rid of responsibility for identifying use of conflict minerals. Good luck. Cortland Richmond - This message is from the IEEE Product Safety Engineering Society emc-pstc discussion list. To post a message to the list, send your e-mail to emc-p...@ieee.org All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at: http://www.ieee-pses.org/emc-pstc.html Attachments are not permitted but the IEEE PSES Online Communities site at http://product-compliance.oc.ieee.org/ can be used for graphics (in well-used formats), large files, etc. Website: http://www.ieee-pses.org/ Instructions: http://www.ieee-pses.org/list.html (including how to unsubscribe) List rules: http://www.ieee-pses.org/listrules.html For help, send mail to the list administrators: Scott Douglas emcp...@radiusnorth.net Mike Cantwell mcantw...@ieee.org For policy questions, send mail to: Jim Bacher: j.bac...@ieee.org David Heald: dhe...@gmail.com
[PSES] weird stuff in agency agreement form
Am looking at the latest 'agency' general agreement form that all CABs make their clients sign in blood. A new clause states ... has the right to conduct unannounced audits at the manufacture's premises as well as the premises of the manufacturers component supplier and has the right to take samples. It is the obligation of the holder of the certificate to ensure that an audit at the component supplier's premises can be conducted. Unless all of my suppliers have previously signed this agreement, or if we can somehow get all of my bazillion suppliers to sign an agreement, it would seem that the test house is attempting to enforce a 'transitive' legal property. Do not see how this can fly in most North American jurisdictions. Is this something peculiar to EU law? Brian - This message is from the IEEE Product Safety Engineering Society emc-pstc discussion list. To post a message to the list, send your e-mail to emc-p...@ieee.org All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at: http://www.ieee-pses.org/emc-pstc.html Attachments are not permitted but the IEEE PSES Online Communities site at http://product-compliance.oc.ieee.org/ can be used for graphics (in well-used formats), large files, etc. Website: http://www.ieee-pses.org/ Instructions: http://www.ieee-pses.org/list.html (including how to unsubscribe) List rules: http://www.ieee-pses.org/listrules.html For help, send mail to the list administrators: Scott Douglas emcp...@radiusnorth.net Mike Cantwell mcantw...@ieee.org For policy questions, send mail to: Jim Bacher: j.bac...@ieee.org David Heald: dhe...@gmail.com
Re: [PSES] weird stuff in agency agreement form
In message 2c6263c88b5c467f83265e27b6a02...@blupr02mb116.namprd02.prod.outlook.com , dated Thu, 11 Sep 2014, Brian Oconnell oconne...@tamuracorp.com writes: A new clause states ... has the right to conduct unannounced audits at the manufacture's premises as well as the premises of the manufacturers component supplier and has the right to take samples. It is the obligation of the holder of the certificate to ensure that an audit at the component supplier's premises can be conducted. Unless all of my suppliers have previously signed this agreement, or if we can somehow get all of my bazillion suppliers to sign an agreement, Even if you did, it might very well be repudiated by whoever buys one of your suppliers at some future date. Such an agreement is potentially ephemeral. it would seem that the test house is attempting to enforce a 'transitive' legal property. I agree; but the poor certificate holder has a hard choice - accept the obligation or have no certificate. Do not see how this can fly in most North American jurisdictions. Is this something peculiar to EU law? There is nothing more peculiar than EU law. The approach seems to be to write down what conditions they want to apply and, in the event of a dispute, leave it to the courts to decide whether the condition is enforceable. This may be the only way of coping with 27 different legal systems in the Member States. -- OOO - Own Opinions Only. With best wishes. See www.jmwa.demon.co.uk Quid faciamus nisi sit? John Woodgate, J M Woodgate and Associates, Rayleigh, Essex UK - This message is from the IEEE Product Safety Engineering Society emc-pstc discussion list. To post a message to the list, send your e-mail to emc-p...@ieee.org All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at: http://www.ieee-pses.org/emc-pstc.html Attachments are not permitted but the IEEE PSES Online Communities site at http://product-compliance.oc.ieee.org/ can be used for graphics (in well-used formats), large files, etc. Website: http://www.ieee-pses.org/ Instructions: http://www.ieee-pses.org/list.html (including how to unsubscribe) List rules: http://www.ieee-pses.org/listrules.html For help, send mail to the list administrators: Scott Douglas emcp...@radiusnorth.net Mike Cantwell mcantw...@ieee.org For policy questions, send mail to: Jim Bacher: j.bac...@ieee.org David Heald: dhe...@gmail.com
Re: [PSES] weird stuff in agency agreement form
I don't think this is all that peculiar in the US right now. When signing the agreement forms with UL you agree to unannounced audits and inspections and your factory, and other factories in which you assembly the equipment. It doesn't give them the authorization to inspect your suppliers - just all of your assembly locations, owned or contract manufactures. Gmac -Original Message- From: John Woodgate [mailto:j...@jmwa.demon.co.uk] Sent: Thursday, September 11, 2014 12:31 PM To: EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG Subject: Re: [PSES] weird stuff in agency agreement form In message 2c6263c88b5c467f83265e27b6a02...@blupr02mb116.namprd02.prod.outlook.com , dated Thu, 11 Sep 2014, Brian Oconnell oconne...@tamuracorp.com writes: A new clause states ... has the right to conduct unannounced audits at the manufacture's premises as well as the premises of the manufacturers component supplier and has the right to take samples. It is the obligation of the holder of the certificate to ensure that an audit at the component supplier's premises can be conducted. Unless all of my suppliers have previously signed this agreement, or if we can somehow get all of my bazillion suppliers to sign an agreement, Even if you did, it might very well be repudiated by whoever buys one of your suppliers at some future date. Such an agreement is potentially ephemeral. it would seem that the test house is attempting to enforce a 'transitive' legal property. I agree; but the poor certificate holder has a hard choice - accept the obligation or have no certificate. Do not see how this can fly in most North American jurisdictions. Is this something peculiar to EU law? There is nothing more peculiar than EU law. The approach seems to be to write down what conditions they want to apply and, in the event of a dispute, leave it to the courts to decide whether the condition is enforceable. This may be the only way of coping with 27 different legal systems in the Member States. -- OOO - Own Opinions Only. With best wishes. See www.jmwa.demon.co.uk Quid faciamus nisi sit? John Woodgate, J M Woodgate and Associates, Rayleigh, Essex UK - This message is from the IEEE Product Safety Engineering Society emc-pstc discussion list. To post a message to the list, send your e-mail to emc-p...@ieee.org All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at: https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=http-3A__www.ieee-2Dpses.org_emc-2Dpstc.htmld=AAIBAgc=0hKVUfnuoBozYN8UvxPA-wr=RJLDFgHJo89sjFN46b74hFXEuxvz4Z1iAx-glaOgP0km=wl6YIiJuzfhe8J2G3-3tSxCtqUopy8ySocoafdXLnYgs=AqHG4SP-tUDecTaOJ-dIjPhc-QNfM6ze5GAtgmeymXEe= Attachments are not permitted but the IEEE PSES Online Communities site at https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=http-3A__product-2Dcompliance.oc.ieee.org_d=AAIBAgc=0hKVUfnuoBozYN8UvxPA-wr=RJLDFgHJo89sjFN46b74hFXEuxvz4Z1iAx-glaOgP0km=wl6YIiJuzfhe8J2G3-3tSxCtqUopy8ySocoafdXLnYgs=-mwwdijtz3jAIKcEsFTrEU0dwez_ZSmLXgref5WnWu8e= can be used for graphics (in well-used formats), large files, etc. Website: https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=http-3A__www.ieee-2Dpses.org_d=AAIBAgc=0hKVUfnuoBozYN8UvxPA-wr=RJLDFgHJo89sjFN46b74hFXEuxvz4Z1iAx-glaOgP0km=wl6YIiJuzfhe8J2G3-3tSxCtqUopy8ySocoafdXLnYgs=O1kWwPcGP-y_Z9FzOH4lsb2hn1xJvM0JILORCbaiSZYe= Instructions: https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=http-3A__www.ieee-2Dpses.org_list.htmld=AAIBAgc=0hKVUfnuoBozYN8UvxPA-wr=RJLDFgHJo89sjFN46b74hFXEuxvz4Z1iAx-glaOgP0km=wl6YIiJuzfhe8J2G3-3tSxCtqUopy8ySocoafdXLnYgs=IL9cf3ssQSmhABykPCeKSNVuyK0xf41mLNoqpZvbzUUe= (including how to unsubscribe) List rules: https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=http-3A__www.ieee-2Dpses.org_listrules.htmld=AAIBAgc=0hKVUfnuoBozYN8UvxPA-wr=RJLDFgHJo89sjFN46b74hFXEuxvz4Z1iAx-glaOgP0km=wl6YIiJuzfhe8J2G3-3tSxCtqUopy8ySocoafdXLnYgs=b211EI3sU-jkrl2X6-fzoCNzuyB0VCvUsEXTSTMFp1ke= For help, send mail to the list administrators: Scott Douglas emcp...@radiusnorth.net Mike Cantwell mcantw...@ieee.org For policy questions, send mail to: Jim Bacher: j.bac...@ieee.org David Heald: dhe...@gmail.com - This message is from the IEEE Product Safety Engineering Society emc-pstc discussion list. To post a message to the list, send your e-mail to emc-p...@ieee.org All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at: http://www.ieee-pses.org/emc-pstc.html Attachments are not permitted but the IEEE PSES Online Communities site at http://product-compliance.oc.ieee.org/ can be used for graphics (in well-used formats), large files, etc. Website: http://www.ieee-pses.org/ Instructions: http://www.ieee-pses.org/list.html (including how to unsubscribe) List rules: http://www.ieee-pses.org/listrules.html For help, send mail to the list administrators: Scott Douglas emcp...@radiusnorth.net Mike Cantwell mcantw...@ieee.org For policy questions
Re: [PSES] weird stuff in agency agreement form
FUS audits - old and known stuff. Applicant being responsible for the agency's access to the people down the supply chain - that is new and weird and probably not enforceable. My employer cannot dictate terms for access to suppliers' facilities by a third party, and cannot force suppliers to provide free services to an agency that may not have any previously existing agreement . If we were Apple or Microsoft, we could probably force suppliers to provide samples and factory access on demand; but not for most of us common folk down on the farm. Brian -Original Message- From: Gary McInturff [mailto:gary.mcintu...@esterline.com] Sent: Thursday, September 11, 2014 12:51 PM To: EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG Subject: Re: [PSES] weird stuff in agency agreement form I don't think this is all that peculiar in the US right now. When signing the agreement forms with UL you agree to unannounced audits and inspections and your factory, and other factories in which you assembly the equipment. It doesn't give them the authorization to inspect your suppliers - just all of your assembly locations, owned or contract manufactures Gmac -Original Message- From: John Woodgate [mailto:j...@jmwa.demon.co.uk] Sent: Thursday, September 11, 2014 12:31 PM To: EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG Subject: Re: [PSES] weird stuff in agency agreement form In message 2c6263c88b5c467f83265e27b6a02...@blupr02mb116.namprd02.prod.outlook.com , dated Thu, 11 Sep 2014, Brian Oconnell oconne...@tamuracorp.com writes: A new clause states ... has the right to conduct unannounced audits at the manufacture's premises as well as the premises of the manufacturers component supplier and has the right to take samples. It is the obligation of the holder of the certificate to ensure that an audit at the component supplier's premises can be conducted. Unless all of my suppliers have previously signed this agreement, or if we can somehow get all of my bazillion suppliers to sign an agreement, Even if you did, it might very well be repudiated by whoever buys one of your suppliers at some future date. Such an agreement is potentially ephemeral. it would seem that the test house is attempting to enforce a 'transitive' legal property. I agree; but the poor certificate holder has a hard choice - accept the obligation or have no certificate. Do not see how this can fly in most North American jurisdictions. Is this something peculiar to EU law? There is nothing more peculiar than EU law. The approach seems to be to write down what conditions they want to apply and, in the event of a dispute, leave it to the courts to decide whether the condition is enforceable. This may be the only way of coping with 27 different legal systems in the Member States. -- OOO - Own Opinions Only. With best wishes. See www.jmwa.demon.co.uk Quid faciamus nisi sit? John Woodgate, J M Woodgate and Associates, Rayleigh, Essex UK - This message is from the IEEE Product Safety Engineering Society emc-pstc discussion list. To post a message to the list, send your e-mail to emc-p...@ieee.org All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at: http://www.ieee-pses.org/emc-pstc.html Attachments are not permitted but the IEEE PSES Online Communities site at http://product-compliance.oc.ieee.org/ can be used for graphics (in well-used formats), large files, etc. Website: http://www.ieee-pses.org/ Instructions: http://www.ieee-pses.org/list.html (including how to unsubscribe) List rules: http://www.ieee-pses.org/listrules.html For help, send mail to the list administrators: Scott Douglas emcp...@radiusnorth.net Mike Cantwell mcantw...@ieee.org For policy questions, send mail to: Jim Bacher: j.bac...@ieee.org David Heald: dhe...@gmail.com
Re: [PSES] weird stuff in agency agreement form
I’m not a betting man, but if I were, I’d lay a few quid on this having come from an EU Notified Body which has a presence in the medical devices market. It looks very like a reaction to the PIP breast implant scandal. Think of it in the context of the NB trying to be seen to react to the lessons from that and it may make a bit more sense. Doesn’t make it any more enforceable though. Nick. On 11 Sep 2014, at 19:13, Brian Oconnell oconne...@tamuracorp.com wrote: Am looking at the latest 'agency' general agreement form that all CABs make their clients sign in blood. A new clause states ... has the right to conduct unannounced audits at the manufacture's premises as well as the premises of the manufacturers component supplier and has the right to take samples. It is the obligation of the holder of the certificate to ensure that an audit at the component supplier's premises can be conducted. Unless all of my suppliers have previously signed this agreement, or if we can somehow get all of my bazillion suppliers to sign an agreement, it would seem that the test house is attempting to enforce a 'transitive' legal property. Do not see how this can fly in most North American jurisdictions. Is this something peculiar to EU law? Brian Nick Williams Director Direct line: +44 1298 873811 Mobile: +44 7702 995135 email: nick.willi...@conformance.co.uk - Conformance Ltd - Product safety, approvals and CE-marking consultants The Old Methodist Chapel, Great Hucklow, Buxton, SK17 8RG England Tel. +44 1298 873800, Fax. +44 1298 873801, www.conformance.co.uk Registered in England, Company No. 3478646 - This message is from the IEEE Product Safety Engineering Society emc-pstc discussion list. To post a message to the list, send your e-mail to emc-p...@ieee.org All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at: http://www.ieee-pses.org/emc-pstc.html Attachments are not permitted but the IEEE PSES Online Communities site at http://product-compliance.oc.ieee.org/ can be used for graphics (in well-used formats), large files, etc. Website: http://www.ieee-pses.org/ Instructions: http://www.ieee-pses.org/list.html (including how to unsubscribe) List rules: http://www.ieee-pses.org/listrules.html For help, send mail to the list administrators: Scott Douglas emcp...@radiusnorth.net Mike Cantwell mcantw...@ieee.org For policy questions, send mail to: Jim Bacher: j.bac...@ieee.org David Heald: dhe...@gmail.com
Re: [PSES] weird stuff in agency agreement form
Hi Brian, Those service agreements are legal and binding. But with that said, have your legal team review it and have them try to negotiate that out as an amended agreement. With weird unenforceable stuff like that, it should be relatively painless to have it removed. Just my 2 cents. Best regards, Ron Pickard Sent from my Android phone div Original message /divdivFrom: Brian Oconnell oconne...@tamuracorp.com /divdivDate:09/11/2014 1:48 PM (GMT-07:00) /divdivTo: EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG /divdivSubject: Re: [PSES] weird stuff in agency agreement form /divdiv /divFUS audits - old and known stuff. Applicant being responsible for the agency's access to the people down the supply chain - that is new and weird and probably not enforceable. My employer cannot dictate terms for access to suppliers' facilities by a third party, and cannot force suppliers to provide free services to an agency that may not have any previously existing agreement . If we were Apple or Microsoft, we could probably force suppliers to provide samples and factory access on demand; but not for most of us common folk down on the farm. Brian -Original Message- From: Gary McInturff [mailto:gary.mcintu...@esterline.com] Sent: Thursday, September 11, 2014 12:51 PM To: EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG Subject: Re: [PSES] weird stuff in agency agreement form I don't think this is all that peculiar in the US right now. When signing the agreement forms with UL you agree to unannounced audits and inspections and your factory, and other factories in which you assembly the equipment. It doesn't give them the authorization to inspect your suppliers - just all of your assembly locations, owned or contract manufactures Gmac -Original Message- From: John Woodgate [mailto:j...@jmwa.demon.co.uk] Sent: Thursday, September 11, 2014 12:31 PM To: EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG Subject: Re: [PSES] weird stuff in agency agreement form In message 2c6263c88b5c467f83265e27b6a02...@blupr02mb116.namprd02.prod.outlook.com , dated Thu, 11 Sep 2014, Brian Oconnell oconne...@tamuracorp.com writes: A new clause states ... has the right to conduct unannounced audits at the manufacture's premises as well as the premises of the manufacturers component supplier and has the right to take samples. It is the obligation of the holder of the certificate to ensure that an audit at the component supplier's premises can be conducted. Unless all of my suppliers have previously signed this agreement, or if we can somehow get all of my bazillion suppliers to sign an agreement, Even if you did, it might very well be repudiated by whoever buys one of your suppliers at some future date. Such an agreement is potentially ephemeral. it would seem that the test house is attempting to enforce a 'transitive' legal property. I agree; but the poor certificate holder has a hard choice - accept the obligation or have no certificate. Do not see how this can fly in most North American jurisdictions. Is this something peculiar to EU law? There is nothing more peculiar than EU law. The approach seems to be to write down what conditions they want to apply and, in the event of a dispute, leave it to the courts to decide whether the condition is enforceable. This may be the only way of coping with 27 different legal systems in the Member States. -- OOO - Own Opinions Only. With best wishes. See www.jmwa.demon.co.uk Quid faciamus nisi sit? John Woodgate, J M Woodgate and Associates, Rayleigh, Essex UK - This message is from the IEEE Product Safety Engineering Society emc-pstc discussion list. To post a message to the list, send your e-mail to emc-p...@ieee.org All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at: http://www.ieee-pses.org/emc-pstc.html Attachments are not permitted but the IEEE PSES Online Communities site at http://product-compliance.oc.ieee.org/ can be used for graphics (in well-used formats), large files, etc. Website: http://www.ieee-pses.org/ Instructions: http://www.ieee-pses.org/list.html (including how to unsubscribe) List rules: http://www.ieee-pses.org/listrules.html For help, send mail to the list administrators: Scott Douglas emcp...@radiusnorth.net Mike Cantwell mcantw...@ieee.org For policy questions, send mail to: Jim Bacher: j.bac...@ieee.org David Heald: dhe...@gmail.com - This message is from the IEEE Product Safety Engineering Society emc-pstc discussion list. To post a message to the list, send your e-mail to emc-p...@ieee.org All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at: http://www.ieee-pses.org/emc-pstc.html Attachments are not permitted but the IEEE PSES Online Communities site at http://product-compliance.oc.ieee.org/ can be used for graphics (in well-used formats), large files, etc. Website: http
