Re: Quantifying EMC

2001-12-04 Thread John Woodgate

I read in !emc-pstc that Doug McKean  wrote (in
<001301c17cec$e59c33f0$3e3e3...@corp.auspex.com>) about 'Quantifying
EMC', on Tue, 4 Dec 2001:
>So roughly speaking, migrating to a 4-layer board from 
>a 2-layer board should cost 4/2 of a 2-layer board or 
>200% increase.  

100% increase.

>Migrating from a 4-layer board to a 
>6-layer board by adding 2 layers would result in the 
>6-layer board being 6/4 or a 50% increase.
> 
That really is 50%.
-- 
Regards, John Woodgate, OOO - Own Opinions Only. http://www.jmwa.demon.co.uk 
After swimming across the Hellespont, I felt like a Hero. 

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Re: Quantifying EMC

2001-12-04 Thread Doug McKean

Ken, 

Personal experience with a specific circuit for a 
specific application, migrating from a 2-layer board 
to a 4-layer board resulted in something like a -10 
to -15dB reduction in emissions.  That was probably 
the most dramatic reduction in emissions with regard 
to migrating the same circuit from one layer count to 
another. 

The following is an extremely rough estimate ... 

Board cost is almost directly proportional to layer count.  
So, as a *very rough* rule of thumb, use the ratio 

  (new layer count)/(old layer count) 

So roughly speaking, migrating to a 4-layer board from 
a 2-layer board should cost 4/2 of a 2-layer board or 
200% increase.  Migrating from a 4-layer board to a 
6-layer board by adding 2 layers would result in the 
6-layer board being 6/4 or a 50% increase. 

IOW, more layers has a mitigating effect with additional 
layers. 

If you remove layers, the ratio works the other way. 
Removing 2 layers from an 8-layer board will result 
in you paying 6/8 the cost of the 8-layer board or 
75% the cost of the 8-layer or a 25% reduction. 

The trick with this ratio is dealing with 2 layers at a time. 
In order to keep the board constrution symmetrical, you 
can only deal with even numbered layers, as you probably 
already well know.  So, increases or decreases can only 
be estimated multiples of 2. 

One thing follows from this.  Suppose you were given the 
magic wand to set any layer count you wanted in the 
beginning.  BUT, afterward you're only allowed a 20% 
increase in cost for modifications,  You must start with 
10 layers anticipating an increase to 12-layers resulting in 
roughly a (12/10) = 20% increase in cost.  I think this is 
something that's missed in most prototyping considerations. 

As far as management is concerned, IMHO, the decision 
should be to maximize layer count as soon as possible.  This 
has these effects in my opinion:  1) it's far better to overkill for 
EMI on first spin prototypes, 2) removing layers has more of 
an appeal budgetwise than adding, 3) overkill leaves available 
real estate for any future mods which are usually bound to 
happen.  

The whole, point in my opinion, is to set up a simple board 
construction (layer and stackup) that will survive as long as 
possible even through all sorts of modifications. Therefore, 
board costing can be anticipated and stabilized as best as 
possible for a long time into the life of the project. 

Undercounting layers which might result in adding layers 
later in the process can have a much more disastorous 
effect especially with large quantities of boards are in play; 
time-to-market cost, ECR/ECO cycle cost, design cycle 
cost, MRB/scrapping material cost, added burden on 
budget,  ... etc ... 

I certainly understand all too well we in business don't live 
in a perfect world.  But, given the chance to incorporate some 
of the ideas that I consider important, it's far better to overkill 
for EMI/EMC right off the bat than having to scramble around 
a week or so before final product release. 

The above all strictly my opinion ... 

Regards, Doug McKean 



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Re: Quantifying EMC

2001-12-04 Thread Cortland Richmond

I've seen a change from a 2-layer to a 4-layer board cut EMI  (at VHF) by
30 dB. 

The same reduction could also have been accomplished, in this case, with a
22 ohm resistor -- I did it. However, the 4-layer board had just been
turned out to solve another problem.

Cortland

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Quantifying EMC

2001-12-04 Thread Matsuda, Ken

Hello Group,

I'm kinda curious to see if anyone has had the chance to quantify EMI and
EMC, from a management prospective.  For instance, going to a 4 layer board
from a 2 layer board, can one say that the cost 1 cm^2 of copper for a
ground plane can relate to say 1 dB in reduction...  I know, its a rough
projection, but I'm sure someone out there has made projections to
management in such fashion to quantify value added.  

Anyone research, books, links, etc. would be of great help.


Thanks,


Ken Matsuda

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