RE: An old chestnut.
Enci, Standards and standards development take a lot of time and money to produce. This is partially recovered through the sale of standards. Standards writing groups are considered to be doing well if they break even. I am not sure of the availability of information in Europe, but if you have access to a local large library or college library, you may be able to access the standards there. I know here that all the UL and ANSI standards are available at the local college library. There is a fee, of course, with copying these but you are free to browse through them as much as you like! Warren -Original Message- From: owner-emc-p...@majordomo.ieee.org [mailto:owner-emc-p...@majordomo.ieee.org]On Behalf Of Enci Sent: Wednesday, December 12, 2001 8:41 AM To: emc-p...@majordomo.ieee.org Subject: An old chestnut. Hi Group, Can someone please remind me again why I have to pay over 1 British Pound a sheet for standards? (over 2 British pounds a page non-BSI member price) Where does the money go? Does this same situation exist outside the European Union? How much do you pay? Is membership on a committee producing a standard a paid position? For a new line of products in low volume, the costs involved in acquiring the relevant standards are steep. With the relative ease in which I can acquire datasheets online, I have often wondered why standards are not freely downloadable - would that not increase the safety of equipment produced by SME's and hobbyists alike? Also as an informed consumer I would be able to see specific details of the standards applicable to any products I buy. Enci --- This message is from the IEEE EMC Society Product Safety Technical Committee emc-pstc discussion list. Visit our web site at: http://www.ewh.ieee.org/soc/emcs/pstc/ To cancel your subscription, send mail to: majord...@ieee.org with the single line: unsubscribe emc-pstc For help, send mail to the list administrators: Michael Garretson:pstc_ad...@garretson.org Dave Healddavehe...@mediaone.net For policy questions, send mail to: Richard Nute: ri...@ieee.org Jim Bacher: j.bac...@ieee.org All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at: No longer online until our new server is brought online and the old messages are imported into the new server. --- This message is from the IEEE EMC Society Product Safety Technical Committee emc-pstc discussion list. Visit our web site at: http://www.ewh.ieee.org/soc/emcs/pstc/ To cancel your subscription, send mail to: majord...@ieee.org with the single line: unsubscribe emc-pstc For help, send mail to the list administrators: Michael Garretson:pstc_ad...@garretson.org Dave Healddavehe...@mediaone.net For policy questions, send mail to: Richard Nute: ri...@ieee.org Jim Bacher: j.bac...@ieee.org All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at: No longer online until our new server is brought online and the old messages are imported into the new server.
Re: An old chestnut.
I read in !emc-pstc that Allen, John wrote (in <999c839e7e27d41185ec00d0b7473692024cd...@norway.int.rdel.co.u k>) about 'An old chestnut.', on Wed, 12 Dec 2001: >John Allen >Thales Defence Ltd >Bracknell >(and ex-BSI Standards Project Manager!) I thought that no-one survived being a BSI Project Manager. (;-) -- Regards, John Woodgate, OOO - Own Opinions Only. http://www.jmwa.demon.co.uk After swimming across the Hellespont, I felt like a Hero. --- This message is from the IEEE EMC Society Product Safety Technical Committee emc-pstc discussion list. Visit our web site at: http://www.ewh.ieee.org/soc/emcs/pstc/ To cancel your subscription, send mail to: majord...@ieee.org with the single line: unsubscribe emc-pstc For help, send mail to the list administrators: Michael Garretson:pstc_ad...@garretson.org Dave Healddavehe...@mediaone.net For policy questions, send mail to: Richard Nute: ri...@ieee.org Jim Bacher: j.bac...@ieee.org All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at: No longer online until our new server is brought online and the old messages are imported into the new server.
Re: An old chestnut.
I read in !emc-pstc that Andrew Carson wrote (in <3c178ed6.d355c...@uk.xyratex.com>) about 'An old chestnut.', on Wed, 12 Dec 2001: >One solution that works very well in the South of England is an organization >called Hatrics. Various local companies >linked together by the central county library. Where, more precisely, in England does this operate? -- Regards, John Woodgate, OOO - Own Opinions Only. http://www.jmwa.demon.co.uk After swimming across the Hellespont, I felt like a Hero. --- This message is from the IEEE EMC Society Product Safety Technical Committee emc-pstc discussion list. Visit our web site at: http://www.ewh.ieee.org/soc/emcs/pstc/ To cancel your subscription, send mail to: majord...@ieee.org with the single line: unsubscribe emc-pstc For help, send mail to the list administrators: Michael Garretson:pstc_ad...@garretson.org Dave Healddavehe...@mediaone.net For policy questions, send mail to: Richard Nute: ri...@ieee.org Jim Bacher: j.bac...@ieee.org All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at: No longer online until our new server is brought online and the old messages are imported into the new server.
Re: An old chestnut.
I read in !emc-pstc that Enci wrote (in <3.0.6.32.2 0011212134035.00a23...@mail.cinepower.com>) about 'An old chestnut.', on Wed, 12 Dec 2001: >Can someone please remind me again why I have to pay over 1 British Pound a >sheet for standards? (over 2 British pounds a page non-BSI member price) >Where does the money go? It helps to pay for the administration of the standards-making - the committee secretaries who are BSI staff and their managements. >Does this same situation exist outside the European Union? How much do you >pay? Even within the EU, some national standards committees have lower prices than BSI, and some are higher. The Netherlands and Belgium occasionally publish ENs and other standards in English and they can be low cost. >Is membership on a committee producing a standard a paid position? Well, most of the members are from industry, and they are paid either by their employers or their sponsoring organization. BSI does not pay any members except its own staff. > >For a new line of products in low volume, the costs involved in acquiring >the relevant standards are steep. But how much do you spend on advertising the product? If you regard the total cost of conformity as part of the cost of 'being in the market', not as part of the product development cost, you can see that it's normally only a tiny part of the total cost of 'being in the market'. After all, a non-conforming product can meet its functional specification, BUT you can't sell it - you can't 'be in the market' with it. >With the relative ease in which I can >acquire datasheets online, I have often wondered why standards are not >freely downloadable - would that not increase the safety of equipment >produced by SME's and hobbyists alike? Also as an informed consumer I would >be able to see specific details of the standards applicable to any products >I buy. You can read standards in your nearest *Central* Public Library. Many people agree with you that standards should be free, but we have 100 years of history to overcome. New standards organizations, such as ETSI, have already adopted a cost-free policy, and the ITU will let you have three publications free in any 12 months. -- Regards, John Woodgate, OOO - Own Opinions Only. http://www.jmwa.demon.co.uk After swimming across the Hellespont, I felt like a Hero. --- This message is from the IEEE EMC Society Product Safety Technical Committee emc-pstc discussion list. Visit our web site at: http://www.ewh.ieee.org/soc/emcs/pstc/ To cancel your subscription, send mail to: majord...@ieee.org with the single line: unsubscribe emc-pstc For help, send mail to the list administrators: Michael Garretson:pstc_ad...@garretson.org Dave Healddavehe...@mediaone.net For policy questions, send mail to: Richard Nute: ri...@ieee.org Jim Bacher: j.bac...@ieee.org All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at: No longer online until our new server is brought online and the old messages are imported into the new server.
Re: An old chestnut.
Some standards are free to download, i.e. the ECMA standards. Others are not, and can be very pricey from some organizations. I find it a world wide problem, not just EN standards. UL, ICP, ANSI etc. All have to be paid for. One solution that works very well in the South of England is an organization called Hatrics. Various local companies linked together by the central county library. We all pay a yearly fee and provide Hatrics a list of all the standards we hold. If another company or yours, requires to look at the standard, you phone up and borrow a copy of it. Much like a public library for standards. One big benefit, all the BSI standards are available for this route and you generally get the standard for a couple of weeks. Again like a library, you can arrange an extension on the loan if all parties agree. Long enough to help on small jobs or tests, and gives you time to evaluate the standard to see if it worth purchasing a copy. Enci wrote: > Hi Group, > > Can someone please remind me again why I have to pay over 1 British Pound a > sheet for standards? (over 2 British pounds a page non-BSI member price) > Where does the money go? > Does this same situation exist outside the European Union? How much do you > pay? > Is membership on a committee producing a standard a paid position? > > For a new line of products in low volume, the costs involved in acquiring > the relevant standards are steep. With the relative ease in which I can > acquire datasheets online, I have often wondered why standards are not > freely downloadable - would that not increase the safety of equipment > produced by SME's and hobbyists alike? Also as an informed consumer I would > be able to see specific details of the standards applicable to any products > I buy. > > Enci > > --- > This message is from the IEEE EMC Society Product Safety > Technical Committee emc-pstc discussion list. > > Visit our web site at: http://www.ewh.ieee.org/soc/emcs/pstc/ > > To cancel your subscription, send mail to: > majord...@ieee.org > with the single line: > unsubscribe emc-pstc > > For help, send mail to the list administrators: > Michael Garretson:pstc_ad...@garretson.org > Dave Healddavehe...@mediaone.net > > For policy questions, send mail to: > Richard Nute: ri...@ieee.org > Jim Bacher: j.bac...@ieee.org > > All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at: > No longer online until our new server is brought online and the old > messages are imported into the new server. -- Andrew Carson - Product Safety Engineer, Xyratex, UK Phone: +44 (0)23 9249 6855 Fax: +44 (0)23 9249 6014 --- This message is from the IEEE EMC Society Product Safety Technical Committee emc-pstc discussion list. Visit our web site at: http://www.ewh.ieee.org/soc/emcs/pstc/ To cancel your subscription, send mail to: majord...@ieee.org with the single line: unsubscribe emc-pstc For help, send mail to the list administrators: Michael Garretson:pstc_ad...@garretson.org Dave Healddavehe...@mediaone.net For policy questions, send mail to: Richard Nute: ri...@ieee.org Jim Bacher: j.bac...@ieee.org All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at: No longer online until our new server is brought online and the old messages are imported into the new server.
RE: An old chestnut.
Enci The need to pay for standards is not confined to the UK. Virtually all countries and organisations do the same - from ANSI and UL in the USA to SA in Australia. In some countries I understand you even have to pay to be represented on the committees that prepare standards!! This money goes towards the cost of devising, preparing and printing the standards - that all takes an awful lot of time and money. Governments do sometime contribute towards these costs, but never anywhere the full amount except possibly where there are very specific and dangerous hazards for which standards may be required for legal reasons. They do not contribute the whole cost because "industry" must show that they really do need these standards and are thus prepared to pay for them - and because "industry" is the beneficiary of standards which allows them to sell products at a profit. Otherwise, governments could be accused of providing hidden subsidies to "industry". Finally, the provision of standards comes a long way down the financial priority level in government eyes - would you generally put the provision of standards before that of health, education, defence, etc? Regards John Allen Thales Defence Ltd Bracknell (and ex-BSI Standards Project Manager!) -Original Message- From: Enci [mailto:e...@cinepower.com] Sent: 12 December 2001 13:41 To: emc-p...@majordomo.ieee.org Subject: An old chestnut. Hi Group, Can someone please remind me again why I have to pay over 1 British Pound a sheet for standards? (over 2 British pounds a page non-BSI member price) Where does the money go? Does this same situation exist outside the European Union? How much do you pay? Is membership on a committee producing a standard a paid position? For a new line of products in low volume, the costs involved in acquiring the relevant standards are steep. With the relative ease in which I can acquire datasheets online, I have often wondered why standards are not freely downloadable - would that not increase the safety of equipment produced by SME's and hobbyists alike? Also as an informed consumer I would be able to see specific details of the standards applicable to any products I buy. Enci --- This message is from the IEEE EMC Society Product Safety Technical Committee emc-pstc discussion list. Visit our web site at: http://www.ewh.ieee.org/soc/emcs/pstc/ To cancel your subscription, send mail to: majord...@ieee.org with the single line: unsubscribe emc-pstc For help, send mail to the list administrators: Michael Garretson:pstc_ad...@garretson.org Dave Healddavehe...@mediaone.net For policy questions, send mail to: Richard Nute: ri...@ieee.org Jim Bacher: j.bac...@ieee.org All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at: No longer online until our new server is brought online and the old messages are imported into the new server. --- This message is from the IEEE EMC Society Product Safety Technical Committee emc-pstc discussion list. Visit our web site at: http://www.ewh.ieee.org/soc/emcs/pstc/ To cancel your subscription, send mail to: majord...@ieee.org with the single line: unsubscribe emc-pstc For help, send mail to the list administrators: Michael Garretson:pstc_ad...@garretson.org Dave Healddavehe...@mediaone.net For policy questions, send mail to: Richard Nute: ri...@ieee.org Jim Bacher: j.bac...@ieee.org All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at: No longer online until our new server is brought online and the old messages are imported into the new server.
RE: An old chestnut.
.. that's cheap - UL standards come in at £6 a sheet in some cases. Ever thought about joining the BSI Plus service to get half price (British) standards? . how are standards associations supposed to fund themselves if they don't charge for standards? The BSI do have a library service if you don't want/need to buy. Chris __ Chris James Engineering Services Manager Dolby Laboratories, Inc. (UK) www.dolby.com -Original Message- From: Enci [mailto:e...@cinepower.com] Sent: 12 December 2001 13:41 To: emc-p...@majordomo.ieee.org Subject: An old chestnut. Hi Group, Can someone please remind me again why I have to pay over 1 British Pound a sheet for standards? (over 2 British pounds a page non-BSI member price) Where does the money go? Does this same situation exist outside the European Union? How much do you pay? Is membership on a committee producing a standard a paid position? For a new line of products in low volume, the costs involved in acquiring the relevant standards are steep. With the relative ease in which I can acquire datasheets online, I have often wondered why standards are not freely downloadable - would that not increase the safety of equipment produced by SME's and hobbyists alike? Also as an informed consumer I would be able to see specific details of the standards applicable to any products I buy. Enci --- This message is from the IEEE EMC Society Product Safety Technical Committee emc-pstc discussion list. Visit our web site at: http://www.ewh.ieee.org/soc/emcs/pstc/ To cancel your subscription, send mail to: majord...@ieee.org with the single line: unsubscribe emc-pstc For help, send mail to the list administrators: Michael Garretson:pstc_ad...@garretson.org Dave Healddavehe...@mediaone.net For policy questions, send mail to: Richard Nute: ri...@ieee.org Jim Bacher: j.bac...@ieee.org All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at: No longer online until our new server is brought online and the old messages are imported into the new server. --- This message is from the IEEE EMC Society Product Safety Technical Committee emc-pstc discussion list. Visit our web site at: http://www.ewh.ieee.org/soc/emcs/pstc/ To cancel your subscription, send mail to: majord...@ieee.org with the single line: unsubscribe emc-pstc For help, send mail to the list administrators: Michael Garretson:pstc_ad...@garretson.org Dave Healddavehe...@mediaone.net For policy questions, send mail to: Richard Nute: ri...@ieee.org Jim Bacher: j.bac...@ieee.org All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at: No longer online until our new server is brought online and the old messages are imported into the new server.
