RE: machinery directive related questions
Moshe, Your question 2. indicates an operational problem at a customer site which needs to be fixed. There are many different ways to fix this particular problem, you suggested few. To be more specific, more information would be needed. Mirko Matejic > -Original Message- > From: mvald...@netvision.net.il [SMTP:mvald...@netvision.net.il] > Sent: Monday, November 02, 1998 9:59 PM > To: emc-p...@ieee.org > Subject: machinery directive related questions .. > 2. The machine complies with ESD (up to 8KV) immunity, but still I > have safety related incidents at customer sites, which are obviously > related to ESD (they are simulated at 10KV). What are my options? > Should I do nothing? Should I fix the design (up to ?KV)? Should > I just document the issue, require antistatic carpets/humidifiers etc > from the user? > > Thanks in advance > Moshe - This message is coming from the emc-pstc discussion list. To cancel your subscription, send mail to majord...@ieee.org with the single line: "unsubscribe emc-pstc" (without the quotes). For help, send mail to ed.pr...@cubic.com, j...@gwmail.monarch.com, ri...@sdd.hp.com, or roger.volgst...@compaq.com (the list administrators).
RE: machinery directive related questions
Moshe, I would also take a closer look at the intended installation environment. In this specific situation, if it is not likely that 10 kV ESD would ever occur in its intended installation, than it would be up to the manufacturer to decide on the minimum acceptable passing ESD margin. The best alternative is likely to make your product as robust as you can. This alternative carries a risk for your customers to end up paying something they not need. Mirko Matejic - This message is coming from the emc-pstc discussion list. To cancel your subscription, send mail to majord...@ieee.org with the single line: "unsubscribe emc-pstc" (without the quotes). For help, send mail to ed.pr...@cubic.com, j...@gwmail.monarch.com, ri...@sdd.hp.com, or roger.volgst...@compaq.com (the list administrators).
RE: machinery directive related questions
Moshe, I have dealt with situations similar to what you describe in item 2, and long discussions with a Competent Body regarding them. What I got out of those conversations is that you must build your equipment to operate properly in the environment that it is intended for and any reasonably foreseeable interferences that may exist in that environment. Even if you were only considering the EMC directive (generally NOT a safety related standard), if the 10 KV disturbance are the result of reasonably foreseeable events in the customers environment, you would still have to design your equipment to withstand them. Remember, your compliance obligation is to the EMC Directive, the standards only let you presume compliance to the Directive. In this case, it seems, the presumption was in error. You did not describe how the 10 kV discharges are occurring, so it is difficult to provide an opinion on whether you are in the realm of "reasonably foreseeable". Above and beyond that, you say that these discharges create an unsafe condition with your equipment. For the sake of the Machinery Directive you must address them also. Even though the Machinery Directive does offer you a hierarchy of design out, label and warn in documentation, good ESD-proof design is not so cutting edge that you can fall back on labeling or warning in documentation. If you end up in court, I don't think you would have much of a defense. My bottom line opinionFix the design! Cheers, Lauren Crane lcr...@aus.etn.com [all ideas implied or expressed are not my employer's] > -Original Message- > From: mvald...@netvision.net.il [SMTP:mvald...@netvision.net.il] > Sent: Monday, November 02, 1998 9:59 PM > To: emc-p...@ieee.org > Subject: machinery directive related questions > > Hello Everyone, > > here are 2 questions: > > 1. Is Risk/hazard Analysis required as part of formal documentation > (TCF?). Which standard > defines the format of the analysis? > > 2. The machine complies with ESD (up to 8KV) immunity, but still I > have safety related > incidents at customer sites, which are obviously related to ESD (they > are simulated at > 10KV). What are my options? Should I do nothing? Should I fix the > design (up to ?KV)? Should > I just document the issue, require antistatic carpets/humidifiers etc > from the user? > > Thanks in advance > Moshe > > Name: moshe valdman > E-mail: mvald...@netvision.net.il > Phone: 972-52-941200 > Telefax: 972-3-5496369 > Date: 2/11/98 > Time: 19:58:48 > You are most welcome to visit my homepage at: > > http://www.geocities.com/CapeCanaveral/5233/ > > > > - > This message is coming from the emc-pstc discussion list. > To cancel your subscription, send mail to majord...@ieee.org > with the single line: "unsubscribe emc-pstc" (without the > quotes). For help, send mail to ed.pr...@cubic.com, > j...@gwmail.monarch.com, ri...@sdd.hp.com, or > roger.volgst...@compaq.com (the list administrators). - This message is coming from the emc-pstc discussion list. To cancel your subscription, send mail to majord...@ieee.org with the single line: "unsubscribe emc-pstc" (without the quotes). For help, send mail to ed.pr...@cubic.com, j...@gwmail.monarch.com, ri...@sdd.hp.com, or roger.volgst...@compaq.com (the list administrators).
(Fwd) Re: machinery directive related questions
Dear Moshe, Regarding your first question, EN1050:1996 (Safety of Machinery - Priciples for Risk Assessment) is specified in the OJ and is the standard to be used for your Machinery Directive risk analysis evaluation. This standard requires you to include the analysis with the documentation. The Machinery Directive also states that a TCF must include "a description of methods adopted to eliminate hazards presented by the machinery". Regarding item 2, I believe it is the manufacturer's responsibility to reduce the risk for safety related hazards as part of the equipment design. In your case, it seems the manufacturer has not designed his equipment properly from the beginning. By CE marking, the manufacturer claimed compliance with the Directive. They cannot ship an unsafe product with the CE Mark and then have to patch it up in the field to comply. Regards, From: mvald...@netvision.net.il Date sent: Mon, 2 Nov 98 19:58:48 PST Subject:machinery directive related questions To: emc-p...@ieee.org Send reply to: mvald...@netvision.net.il > Hello Everyone, > > here are 2 questions: > > 1. Is Risk/hazard Analysis required as part of formal documentation (TCF?). > Which standard > defines the format of the analysis? > > 2. The machine complies with ESD (up to 8KV) immunity, but still I have > safety related > incidents at customer sites, which are obviously related to ESD (they are > simulated at > 10KV). What are my options? Should I do nothing? Should I fix the design (up > to ?KV)? Should > I just document the issue, require antistatic carpets/humidifiers etc from > the user? > > Thanks in advance > Moshe > > Name: moshe valdman > E-mail: mvald...@netvision.net.il > Phone: 972-52-941200 > Telefax: 972-3-5496369 > Date: 2/11/98 > Time: 19:58:48 > You are most welcome to visit my homepage at: > > http://www.geocities.com/CapeCanaveral/5233/ > > > > - > This message is coming from the emc-pstc discussion list. > To cancel your subscription, send mail to majord...@ieee.org > with the single line: "unsubscribe emc-pstc" (without the > quotes). For help, send mail to ed.pr...@cubic.com, > j...@gwmail.monarch.com, ri...@sdd.hp.com, or > roger.volgst...@compaq.com (the list administrators). > PETER S. MERGUERIAN MANAGING DIRECTOR PRODUCT TESTING DIVISION I.T.L. (PRODUCT TESTING) LTD. HACHAROSHET 26, P.O.B. 211 OR YEHUDA 60251, ISRAEL TEL: 972-3-5339022 FAX: 972-3-5339019 E-MAIL: pe...@itl.co.il Visit our Website: http://www.itl.co.il - This message is coming from the emc-pstc discussion list. To cancel your subscription, send mail to majord...@ieee.org with the single line: "unsubscribe emc-pstc" (without the quotes). For help, send mail to ed.pr...@cubic.com, j...@gwmail.monarch.com, ri...@sdd.hp.com, or roger.volgst...@compaq.com (the list administrators).
re: machinery directive related questions
Moshe: 1. Yes, a Hazard/Risk analysis IS required by the MD. This must be included in your TCF. The EN standard that defines the format is EN 1050. The EN standards that defines the Risk is pr EN 954-1. 2. Please call Joel Peltier (612 638 0244) or email jpelt...@tuvps.com for this answer. I hope this helps. Mark A. D'Agostino 978 739 7016 md'agost...@tuvps.com http://www.tuvglobal.com - Original Text From: , on 11/2/98 10:58 PM: Hello Everyone, here are 2 questions: 1. Is Risk/hazard Analysis required as part of formal documentation (TCF?). Which standard defines the format of the analysis? 2. The machine complies with ESD (up to 8KV) immunity, but still I have safety related incidents at customer sites, which are obviously related to ESD (they are simulated at 10KV). What are my options? Should I do nothing? Should I fix the design (up to ?KV)? Should I just document the issue, require antistatic carpets/humidifiers etc from the user? Thanks in advance Moshe Name: moshe valdman E-mail: mvald...@netvision.net.il Phone: 972-52-941200 Telefax: 972-3-5496369 List-Post: emc-pstc@listserv.ieee.org Date: 2/11/98 Time: 19:58:48 You are most welcome to visit my homepage at: http://www.geocities.com/CapeCanaveral/5233/ - This message is coming from the emc-pstc discussion list. To cancel your subscription, send mail to majord...@ieee.org with the single line: "unsubscribe emc-pstc" (without the quotes). For help, send mail to ed.pr...@cubic.com, j...@gwmail.monarch.com, ri...@sdd.hp.com, or roger.volgst...@compaq.com (the list administrators). - This message is coming from the emc-pstc discussion list. To cancel your subscription, send mail to majord...@ieee.org with the single line: "unsubscribe emc-pstc" (without the quotes). For help, send mail to ed.pr...@cubic.com, j...@gwmail.monarch.com, ri...@sdd.hp.com, or roger.volgst...@compaq.com (the list administrators).
RE: machinery directive related questions
Moshe, If you are having safety related problems at the test site I would recommend that be your first priority not documentation catch up. You may want to try taking an ESD gun to you customer site and run ESD tests on the cables to start with. Try taping a conductor along each cable. Ground one end to the ESD gun and discharge to the other. Use a meter or so of cable. That should show you any cable weaknesses. Next I would kick up the ESD levels at all the other ports and see what's happening. But foremost if you are having trouble in the field I think you need to jump on that immediately. Somebody gets hurt and the only doucmentation you need is a check to the injured party. Just an opinion, mind you. Gary -Original Message- From: mvald...@netvision.net.il [SMTP:mvald...@netvision.net.il] Sent: Monday, November 02, 1998 7:59 PM To: emc-p...@ieee.org Subject:machinery directive related questions Hello Everyone, here are 2 questions: 1. Is Risk/hazard Analysis required as part of formal documentation (TCF?). Which standard defines the format of the analysis? 2. The machine complies with ESD (up to 8KV) immunity, but still I have safety related incidents at customer sites, which are obviously related to ESD (they are simulated at 10KV). What are my options? Should I do nothing? Should I fix the design (up to ?KV)? Should I just document the issue, require antistatic carpets/humidifiers etc from the user? Thanks in advance Moshe Name: moshe valdman E-mail: mvald...@netvision.net.il Phone: 972-52-941200 Telefax: 972-3-5496369 Date: 2/11/98 Time: 19:58:48 You are most welcome to visit my homepage at: http://www.geocities.com/CapeCanaveral/5233/ - This message is coming from the emc-pstc discussion list. To cancel your subscription, send mail to majord...@ieee.org with the single line: "unsubscribe emc-pstc" (without the quotes). For help, send mail to ed.pr...@cubic.com, j...@gwmail.monarch.com, ri...@sdd.hp.com, or roger.volgst...@compaq.com (the list administrators). - This message is coming from the emc-pstc discussion list. To cancel your subscription, send mail to majord...@ieee.org with the single line: "unsubscribe emc-pstc" (without the quotes). For help, send mail to ed.pr...@cubic.com, j...@gwmail.monarch.com, ri...@sdd.hp.com, or roger.volgst...@compaq.com (the list administrators).
