Re: [PSES] Electrical installation - Approval or required permission by an AHJ in the US (29 CFR 1910 subpart S, NFPA 70/79)
Hi Michael: Nice to hear from you. 1. Is the involvement of an AHJ mandatory? If yes, who is responsible to involve the AHJ? The FARMER or the IMPORTER? My understanding: the FARMER in each county is responsible to involve the AHJ. To ensure that the machine is safe it is recommended for the FARMER to specify the fulfillment of the NEC, 29 CFR 1910 together with a field evaluation by a NRTL in the contract. In this case the FARMER is the employer. OSHA applies. The FARMER must provide either NRTL- certified equipment OR have the equipment inspected and tested by the AHJ (for OSHA). In addition, the local electrical code applies. The FARMER must provide either NRTL-certified equipment OR contact the local AHJ (for the electrical code) to have it inspected and tested. In both cases, the FARMER is responsible for providing certified equipment. 2. What is an AHJ doing? I understood the mails of Pete and Rich that an AHJ approves each electrical installation BEFORE operation. In both cases, the AHJ for OSHA and the AHJ for the electrical code will require a field certification to inspect and test the equipment. If the FARMER is lucky, both AHJs will agree to the same lab for a single inspection and test. The AHJ specifies the acceptable labs, and orders that the FARMER must obtain and pay for the certification. For BOTH OSHA and the local electrical code, the equipment must be inspected and tested BEFORE the equipment can be put into use. I recall many years ago when a local printing company bought a nice, new German state-of-the- art printing press. It was installed and ready to go, but, since it was hard-wired to the building, and the building wiring had to be modified, the press and installation had to have the local electrical code inspection before it could be used. The inspector red-tagged the press; it couldn't be used until it met the local electrical code. The inspector required the press to be completely re-wired with UL-labeled wire with the correct colors. Very expensive and time-consuming. My advice is to apply for NRTL certification of the unit. Europe has several local labs that are NRTLs and that can do the job. Best regards, Rich -Original Message- From: Michael Loerzer [mailto:loerzer_mob...@globalnorm.de] Sent: Monday, January 16, 2012 2:23 PM To: 'Pete Perkins'; EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG; ri...@ieee.org Subject: AW: [PSES] Electrical installation - Approval or required permission by an AHJ in the US (29 CFR 1910 subpart S, NFPA 70/79) Pete, Rich, all PSTC members, thanks a lot for your detailed information. Its sometimes difficult to understand the US system in comparison to the EU system: If a importer or manufacturer places a product on the EU market the product shall comply with the CE marking regulations like EMC, low voltage, machine, toys, medical device directives. For the operation the end user is responsible. The applicable EU directive is 2009/104/EC DIRECTIVE 2009/104/EC OF THE EUROPEAN PARLIAMENT AND OF THE COUNCIL of 16 September 2009 concerning the minimum safety and health requirements for the use of work equipment by workers at work (second individual Directive within the meaning of Article 16(1) of Directive 89/391/EEC) In my understanding... 29 CFR 1910 Subparts S Electrical and O Machine guarding are more similar to our OSHA Directive 2009/104/EC and NOT to the CE marking directives because the main goal of these CFRs is occupational health and safety at WORK. Therefore the US customer has the goal to buy safe equipment like ITE or machines from the German manufacturer. I have a detailed example: A German manufacturer produces pasteurizers to raw milk (users are FARMERS). Technical data of the KompactPasteur: Processor control with temperature sensors and process records Electrical connection 230 V / 400 V Heating capacity 8.1 kW Combined coiled tube heat exchanger to heat and hold the heat Two-stage heat recovery Stainless steel milk pump Capacity approx. 180 L/h with 8.1 kW heating capacity Dimensions: Width: 500 mm Height: 1200 mm Depth: 400 mm This KompactPasteur complies with the European Low Voltage Directive (electrical safety), machinery directive and EMC directive. Up to now the German manufacturer are labelling the KompactPasteur with the following important notice: This product complies with the requirements of the European Machinery Directive 2006/42/EG, Annex II, 1.A and bears the CE sign. However it is NOT UL/CSA approved. It is therefore imperative for the end user to have an individual approval carried out! My questions are: 1. Is the involvement of an AHJ mandatory? If yes, who is responsible to involve the AHJ? The FARMER or the IMPORTER? My understanding: the FARMER in each county is responsible to involve the AHJ. To
Re: [PSES] Electrical installation - Approval or required permission by an AHJ in the US (29 CFR 1910 subpart S, NFPA 70/79)
Just a secondary thought here. I caught Rich's comment about hoping the inspectors would agree on the lab. One can take a CB report from an NCB - say TUV or VDE and send the report to a more widely accepted US lab - say UL, and after review of the national deviations get a UL sticker if you so desire. I think the last time I did that it was about 1/3 the cost of getting the other mark. I have used in reverse of what Germany would do. I had UL develop a CB report, and I submitted the report to TUV. They evaluated the report and allowed the use of their mark. TUV happens to be one of the NRTL's listed by the NEC so one should be able to use only their mark but that may not be what the local inspector wants to see. Multiple marks mean multiple follow up fee's, though Gary -Original Message- From: Richard Nute [mailto:ri...@ieee.org] Sent: Monday, January 16, 2012 3:03 PM To: EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG Subject: Re: [PSES] Electrical installation - Approval or required permission by an AHJ in the US (29 CFR 1910 subpart S, NFPA 70/79) Hi Michael: Nice to hear from you. 1. Is the involvement of an AHJ mandatory? If yes, who is responsible to involve the AHJ? The FARMER or the IMPORTER? My understanding: the FARMER in each county is responsible to involve the AHJ. To ensure that the machine is safe it is recommended for the FARMER to specify the fulfillment of the NEC, 29 CFR 1910 together with a field evaluation by a NRTL in the contract. In this case the FARMER is the employer. OSHA applies. The FARMER must provide either NRTL- certified equipment OR have the equipment inspected and tested by the AHJ (for OSHA). In addition, the local electrical code applies. The FARMER must provide either NRTL-certified equipment OR contact the local AHJ (for the electrical code) to have it inspected and tested. In both cases, the FARMER is responsible for providing certified equipment. 2. What is an AHJ doing? I understood the mails of Pete and Rich that an AHJ approves each electrical installation BEFORE operation. In both cases, the AHJ for OSHA and the AHJ for the electrical code will require a field certification to inspect and test the equipment. If the FARMER is lucky, both AHJs will agree to the same lab for a single inspection and test. The AHJ specifies the acceptable labs, and orders that the FARMER must obtain and pay for the certification. For BOTH OSHA and the local electrical code, the equipment must be inspected and tested BEFORE the equipment can be put into use. I recall many years ago when a local printing company bought a nice, new German state-of-the- art printing press. It was installed and ready to go, but, since it was hard-wired to the building, and the building wiring had to be modified, the press and installation had to have the local electrical code inspection before it could be used. The inspector red-tagged the press; it couldn't be used until it met the local electrical code. The inspector required the press to be completely re-wired with UL-labeled wire with the correct colors. Very expensive and time-consuming. My advice is to apply for NRTL certification of the unit. Europe has several local labs that are NRTLs and that can do the job. Best regards, Rich -Original Message- From: Michael Loerzer [mailto:loerzer_mob...@globalnorm.de] Sent: Monday, January 16, 2012 2:23 PM To: 'Pete Perkins'; EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG; ri...@ieee.org Subject: AW: [PSES] Electrical installation - Approval or required permission by an AHJ in the US (29 CFR 1910 subpart S, NFPA 70/79) Pete, Rich, all PSTC members, thanks a lot for your detailed information. Its sometimes difficult to understand the US system in comparison to the EU system: If a importer or manufacturer places a product on the EU market the product shall comply with the CE marking regulations like EMC, low voltage, machine, toys, medical device directives. For the operation the end user is responsible. The applicable EU directive is 2009/104/EC DIRECTIVE 2009/104/EC OF THE EUROPEAN PARLIAMENT AND OF THE COUNCIL of 16 September 2009 concerning the minimum safety and health requirements for the use of work equipment by workers at work (second individual Directive within the meaning of Article 16(1) of Directive 89/391/EEC) In my understanding... 29 CFR 1910 Subparts S Electrical and O Machine guarding are more similar to our OSHA Directive 2009/104/EC and NOT to the CE marking directives because the main goal of these CFRs is occupational health and safety at WORK. Therefore the US customer has the goal to buy safe equipment like ITE or machines from the German manufacturer. I have a detailed example: A German manufacturer produces pasteurizers to raw milk (users are FARMERS). Technical data of the KompactPasteur: Processor control with temperature sensors and process records Electrical
Re: [PSES] Electrical installation - Approval or required permission by an AHJ in the US (29 CFR 1910 subpart S, NFPA 70/79)
In case of confusion... The NRTL is a USA type of agency and certification, USA OSHA approved, and fortunately they usually apply common safety standards with country deviations. The AHJ's can try to do whatever they want; until challenged (expensive). ps. the good old boy network of who you know, or blow, or how much corruption and bribery you can afford, can greatly facilitate the requirements... Or you can just do whatever they, the AHJ's, ask for!!! Just like everywhere, we call it corruption when trying to enter another market, but in our own market, it is called cooperation. It takes deep pockets,(of money) to try and change it, here, or anywhere... The laws are the veneer of respectability, the rational for the agency to exist, in order for those in power to extract wealth from those that have it. One would think that governments are supposed to provide a level playing field such that all have to meet the same requirements, but in practice, governments are used by those with influence to acquire more influence and control or favoritism. It is the way of the world. From: McInturff, Gary gary.mcintu...@esterline.com To: 'ri...@ieee.org' ri...@ieee.org; 'EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG' EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG Sent: Monday, January 16, 2012 6:21 PM Subject: RE: [PSES] Electrical installation - Approval or required permission by an AHJ in the US (29 CFR 1910 subpart S, NFPA 70/79) Just a secondary thought here. I caught Rich's comment about hoping the inspectors would agree on the lab. One can take a CB report from an NCB - say TUV or VDE and send the report to a more widely accepted US lab - say UL, and after review of the national deviations get a UL sticker if you so desire. I think the last time I did that it was about 1/3 the cost of getting the other mark. I have used in reverse of what Germany would do. I had UL develop a CB report, and I submitted the report to TUV. They evaluated the report and allowed the use of their mark. TUV happens to be one of the NRTL's listed by the NEC so one should be able to use only their mark but that may not be what the local inspector wants to see. Multiple marks mean multiple follow up fee's, though Gary -Original Message- From: Richard Nute [mailto:ri...@ieee.org] Sent: Monday, January 16, 2012 3:03 PM To: EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG Subject: Re: [PSES] Electrical installation - Approval or required permission by an AHJ in the US (29 CFR 1910 subpart S, NFPA 70/79) Hi Michael: Nice to hear from you. 1. Is the involvement of an AHJ mandatory? If yes, who is responsible to involve the AHJ? The FARMER or the IMPORTER? My understanding: the FARMER in each county is responsible to involve the AHJ. To ensure that the machine is safe it is recommended for the FARMER to specify the fulfillment of the NEC, 29 CFR 1910 together with a field evaluation by a NRTL in the contract. In this case the FARMER is the employer. OSHA applies. The FARMER must provide either NRTL- certified equipment OR have the equipment inspected and tested by the AHJ (for OSHA). In addition, the local electrical code applies. The FARMER must provide either NRTL-certified equipment OR contact the local AHJ (for the electrical code) to have it inspected and tested. In both cases, the FARMER is responsible for providing certified equipment. 2. What is an AHJ doing? I understood the mails of Pete and Rich that an AHJ approves each electrical installation BEFORE operation. In both cases, the AHJ for OSHA and the AHJ for the electrical code will require a field certification to inspect and test the equipment. If the FARMER is lucky, both AHJs will agree to the same lab for a single inspection and test. The AHJ specifies the acceptable labs, and orders that the FARMER must obtain and pay for the certification. For BOTH OSHA and the local electrical code, the equipment must be inspected and tested BEFORE the equipment can be put into use. I recall many years ago when a local printing company bought a nice, new German state-of-the- art printing press. It was installed and ready to go, but, since it was hard-wired to the building, and the building wiring had to be modified, the press and installation had to have the local electrical code inspection before it could be used. The inspector red-tagged the press; it couldn't be used until it met the local electrical code. The inspector required the press to be completely re-wired with UL-labeled wire with the correct colors. Very expensive and time-consuming. My advice is to apply for NRTL certification of the unit. Europe has several local labs that are NRTLs and that can do the job. Best regards, Rich -Original Message- From: Michael Loerzer [mailto:loerzer_mob...@globalnorm.de] Sent: Monday, January 16, 2012 2:23 PM To: 'Pete Perkins'; EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG; ri...@ieee.org Subject: AW: [PSES]
Re: [PSES] Electrical installation - Approval or required permission by an AHJ in the US (29 CFR 1910 subpart S, NFPA 70/79)
Yep! If you get a 'permit' from the authorities for whatever, they are tracking you. And no you won't find the requirement anywhere but in the local jurisdiction. That's why they are called AHJ - they effectively make the rules as they see fit. Challenging one is an interesting affair... Try telling the regulators that they are wrong and see how far that moves one forward. My experience has been that they can deny a CO, certificate of occupancy, the 'permission' to occupy and use the premises and equipment. And tell you what is needed to comply, it is easy, do what they say. Or become a wonder at political BS so they like you! 30 years of operation and then one re-modelling job, and now all the equipment needed 'safety marks.' The AHJ started out as needing UL certs but that was changed to NRTL real quick. One field inspection by a NRTL, and report, and the CO was good to go. From: Michael Loerzer loerzer_mob...@globalnorm.de To: IEEE PSES EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG Sent: Friday, December 23, 2011 7:45 AM Subject: Electrical installation - Approval or required permission by an AHJ in the US (29 CFR 1910 subpart S, NFPA 70/79) Hi, is an approval or the obtaining of an official permission by the local AHJ (fire marshal, state inspector, ..) in the foreseen state before operation of an electrical machine mandatory? If yes, in which chapter of the NEC or 29 CFR 1910 subpart S can I find this requirement? Best regards and a very peaceful X-mas and a happy new year Dipl.-Ing. Michael Loerzer Managing Director Regulatory Affairs Specialist Das neue Buch zum Thema Product Compliance:http://www.beuth.de/sc/produktkonformitaet (Produktkonformität, Prozesse, Risikomanagement, CE-Kennzeichnung, Fallbeispiele für Geschäftsführung, Konstruktion, Normenabteilung, Vertrieb, Einkauf, Produktion, QM) _ Globalnorm GmbH Alt-Moabit 94 10559 Berlin Fon +49 30 3229027-51 Mobile +49 170 3229027 Fax +49 30 3229027-59 Mailmichael.loer...@globalnorm.de www.globalnorm.de www.globalnorm.ca www.product-compliance.com _ Globalnorm GmbH, Sitz der Gesellschaft: Alt-Moabit 94, 10559 Berlin Geschäftsführer: Dipl.-Ing. Michael Loerzer Amtsgericht Berlin-Charlottenburg HRB 105204 B, USt-ID-Nummer: DE251654448 - This message is from the IEEE Product Safety Engineering Society emc-pstc discussion list. To post a message to the list, send your e-mail to emc-p...@ieee.org All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at: http://www.ieee-pses.org/emc-pstc.html Attachments are not permitted but the IEEE PSES Online Communities site at http://product-compliance.oc.ieee.org/ can be used for graphics (in well-used formats), large files, etc. Website: http://www.ieee-pses.org/ Instructions: http://listserv.ieee.org/request/user-guide.html List rules: http://www.ieee-pses.org/listrules.html For help, send mail to the list administrators: Scott Douglas emcp...@radiusnorth.net Mike Cantwell mcantw...@ieee.org For policy questions, send mail to: Jim Bacher j.bac...@ieee.org David Heald dhe...@gmail.com - This message is from the IEEE Product Safety Engineering Society emc-pstc discussion list. To post a message to the list, send your e-mail to emc-p...@ieee.org All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at: http://www.ieee-pses.org/emc-pstc.html Attachments are not permitted but the IEEE PSES Online Communities site at http://product-compliance.oc.ieee.org/ can be used for graphics (in well-used formats), large files, etc. Website: http://www.ieee-pses.org/ Instructions: http://listserv.ieee.org/request/user-guide.html List rules: http://www.ieee-pses.org/listrules.html For help, send mail to the list administrators: Scott Douglas emcp...@radiusnorth.net Mike Cantwell mcantw...@ieee.org For policy questions, send mail to: Jim Bacher: j.bac...@ieee.org David Heald: dhe...@gmail.com
Re: [PSES] Electrical installation - Approval or required permission by an AHJ in the US (29 CFR 1910 subpart S, NFPA 70/79)
Michael PSNet, The US system involving the AHJ includes something on the order of 10,000 separate jurisdictions in the US -including states, counties within the states and cities within the counties. They control electrical installations according to local regulations (not uniform among all jurisdictions). Most invoke the NEC as the basis for electrical installation requirements. Historically, electrical inspectors have only looked at the fixed wiring within the installation but, more recently, have been also looking at the installed equipment. Permanently wired equipment is usually installed earlier and is more likely to be included in the final inspection for any facility. In any case the NEC (National Electrical Code) is invoked as being applicable by jurisdictions. Article 100 defines Listed and Labeled to show adequacy for the application and environment of use. Article 110 provides the basis for the requirements: 110-2, conductors and equipment required or permitted ... shall be acceptable only if approved (see Listed labeled). Article 110-3, ... Equipment ... Suitable for use and in conformity with ... this Code. Installation Use, Listed or labeled equipment installed in accordance with the specified instructions from the Listing/labeling. NFPA79 (which is harmonized with IEC 60204 since ~2000) is applicable to industrial machines. At this point in time it is not a specific certification category by test houses but individual machines are evaluated and labeled as being in compliance (usually a field inspection). The Listed/labeled equipment provides assurance to the local inspector that a piece of machinery is acceptable to be installed and operated as part of this operation. Local inspectors will push for this further evaluation since they do not have the full experience nor time to evaluate all the machinery used in enough detail to determine if it is adequate. The local inspector must approve the installation (including any machinery that might be installed) before it can be operated by the factory. Finally, I repeat what I've said on this PSNet many times before: Americans are good at writing requirements (which are usually called voluntary but it is more complicated than that) but have not develop an integrated approval system that implements the requirements in the same way all over the US. I'm sure that there will be more comments; hopefully this help you to understand the situation in America. :) br, Pete Peter E Perkins, PE Principal Product Safety Engineer PO Box 23427 Tigard, ORe 97281-3427 503/452-1201 fone/fax p.perk...@ieee.org - This message is from the IEEE Product Safety Engineering Society emc-pstc discussion list. To post a message to the list, send your e-mail to emc-p...@ieee.org All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at: http://www.ieee-pses.org/emc-pstc.html Attachments are not permitted but the IEEE PSES Online Communities site at http://product-compliance.oc.ieee.org/ can be used for graphics (in well-used formats), large files, etc. Website: http://www.ieee-pses.org/ Instructions: http://listserv.ieee.org/request/user-guide.html List rules: http://www.ieee-pses.org/listrules.html For help, send mail to the list administrators: Scott Douglas emcp...@radiusnorth.net Mike Cantwell mcantw...@ieee.org For policy questions, send mail to: Jim Bacher: j.bac...@ieee.org David Heald: dhe...@gmail.com
Re: [PSES] Electrical installation - Approval or required permission by an AHJ in the US (29 CFR 1910 subpart S, NFPA 70/79)
Hi Michael: Yes, approval (or safety certification) must be obtained BEFORE the equipment is put into service. You have cited several different regulatory authorities: AHJ (Authority Having Jurisdiction) 29CFR1910 subpart S (OSHA) NFPA 70 (NEC - National Electrical Code) NFPA 79 Electrical Standard for Industrial Machinery In the U.S.A., we have two independent laws governing the safety of electrical equipment. One is a federal law for employees using electrical equipment. The other is a State, County, or City building code law for the general public. 1) The U.S.A. Department of Labor, OSHA, requires safety for employees. With regard to electrical equipment used by employees, if the equipment is certified by an NRTL, then the equipment is deemed acceptably safe for use by employees. All of this is specified in 29CFR1910 subpart S which can be read on the web. With respect to OSHA, the AHJ is: Approved. Acceptable to the authority enforcing this subpart. The authority enforcing this subpart is the Assistant Secretary of Labor for Occupational Safety and Health. The definition of acceptable indicates what is acceptable to the Assistant Secretary of Labor, and therefore approved within the meaning of this subpart. 2) The electrical section of local building codes are administered by an AHJ. Such codes can be State, County, or City. These codes are for the safety of the general public and, by law, do not apply to equipment used by employees in the workplace. The local AHJ specifies safety certification of electrical equipment. Sometimes, the AHJ specifies what labs are acceptable. The AHJ can defer to the NRTL recognition; the City and County of San Francisco has done this. http://sfgsa.org/index.aspx?page=378 Here is a definition of AHJ: http://www.specsandcodes.com/Articles/The%20Code%20Corner%20No.%209%20-%20Au thorities%20Having%20Jurisdiction.pdf The National Electrical Code is a model code intended for adoption by local AHJ. It is not in itself a national standard. Likewise for NFPA 79. The cities of Los Angeles and Chicago have written their own electrical codes that are quite different from the NEC. The state of Oregon has adopted the NEC with modifications. http://www.bcd.oregon.gov/programs/online_codes.html The implication in both OSHA and NEC rules is that safety certification must be complete before the equipment can be energized. I can't find any explicit statements to this effect. Under OSHA, an inspector will look for the certification mark. An employer would be taking quite a risk by energizing equipment without such a mark. Under local electrical codes, an inspector must sign off on the installation before it can be put to use. Best wishes for the holiday season, Richard Nute Product Safety Consultant Vancouver, Washington, U.S.A. -Original Message- From: emc-p...@ieee.org [mailto:emc-p...@ieee.org] On Behalf Of Michael Loerzer Sent: Friday, December 23, 2011 4:45 AM To: IEEE PSES Subject: Electrical installation - Approval or required permission by an AHJ in the US (29 CFR 1910 subpart S, NFPA 70/79) Hi, is an approval or the obtaining of an official permission by the local AHJ (fire marshal, state inspector, ..) in the foreseen state before operation of an electrical machine mandatory? If yes, in which chapter of the NEC or 29 CFR 1910 subpart S can I find this requirement? Best regards and a very peaceful X-mas and a happy new year Dipl.-Ing. Michael Loerzer Managing Director Regulatory Affairs Specialist - This message is from the IEEE Product Safety Engineering Society emc-pstc discussion list. To post a message to the list, send your e-mail to emc-p...@ieee.org All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at: http://www.ieee-pses.org/emc-pstc.html Attachments are not permitted but the IEEE PSES Online Communities site at http://product-compliance.oc.ieee.org/ can be used for graphics (in well-used formats), large files, etc. Website: http://www.ieee-pses.org/ Instructions: http://listserv.ieee.org/request/user-guide.html List rules: http://www.ieee-pses.org/listrules.html For help, send mail to the list administrators: Scott Douglas emcp...@radiusnorth.net Mike Cantwell mcantw...@ieee.org For policy questions, send mail to: Jim Bacher: j.bac...@ieee.org David Heald: dhe...@gmail.com
