Re: [PSES] Magnetic fields, human exposure standards, and pacemakers

2022-11-07 Thread Dan Roman 
Hi Charles,

 

Yes, that would be my take.  They know a magnet is used to perform some tasks 
and they can’t be expected to investigate every fitness tracker or earbud 
magnet so a blanket CYA is appropriate.  If you think about the number of 
gadgets that have magnets in them it is really up to the pacemaker owner to 
watch out for themselves otherwise everything that had a magnet would have a 
warning sticker on it, furniture, jewelry boxes, speakers…

 

I think if I had one of these in my chest I would try it out by putting the 
charging cord in various positions but I am not going to subject my relative to 
that!

 

Dan

 

 

From: Chas Grasso [mailto:charles.gra...@dish.com] 
Sent: Monday, November 07, 2022 10:16 AM
To: EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG
Subject: Re: [PSES] Magnetic fields, human exposure standards, and pacemakers

 

Hello Dan, 

Dont you think that (irrespective of the warning ) the magnet on the DC cord is 
*much* weaker than a magnet used to penetrate through the thickness of the 
human body and then trigger the reed switches? My first thought is that the 
warning is there as a CYA? Perhaps?

 

On Sun, Nov 6, 2022 at 2:06 PM Dan Roman 
<0d75e04ed751-dmarc-requ...@listserv.ieee.org 
<mailto:0d75e04ed751-dmarc-requ...@listserv.ieee.org> > wrote:

 This message originated outside of DISH and was sent by: 
0d75e04ed751-dmarc-requ...@listserv.ieee.org 
<mailto:0d75e04ed751-dmarc-requ...@listserv.ieee.org>  

 

  _  

Thank you everyone for the responses.  Contacting the customer support number 
gets you to someone who basically reads back what is on the website and the 
user manual, so it was not particularly helpful when trying to get to the 
specifics.

 

In a roundabout way through a friend of a friend I managed to arrange a phone 
call with someone from Boston Scientific that had technical engineering 
knowledge and could answer my questions.  The device in question is a 
pacemaker/defibrillator.  It happens to be MRI compatible but I didn’t get into 
what that means with respect to magnetic fields, I think it probably has a lot 
to do with not getting ripped out of your chest if you get an MRI.

 

Anyway, it has two sets of reed switches embedded in it.  One reed switch will 
react to a lower level magnet placed over it and that puts it into a fixed 
pacing mode.  This is used for diagnosing in the doctor’s office.  The magnet 
in a fitness tracker is not likely to be strong enough or to get close enough 
to turn on the fixed pacing mode during normal wear, but they still will tell 
you not to wear it to bed in case you contort in such a way when sleeping to 
cause an issue.

 

The second reed switch reacts only to a much stronger magnetic field and this 
is used to disable the defibrillator if you go in for an operation.  The 
anesthesiologist will apply a strong magnet over the device to disable it for 
the duration of the operation.  Makes sense that as that is easier than 
connecting up a programming device to disable it and then re-enable it and it 
can be easily turned off in an emergency situation with no need for a 
make/model specific programming set.

 

So the relative is going to keep the fitness tracker and not wear it to bed 
(most of the time).  They lose the sleep tracking but that is not of as much 
interest to them and they don’t have it when sleeping every few days to charge 
it overnight anyway.

 

Not sure if all devices work the same way but sounds like for simplification 
reasons this might be a standardized practice to make surgeon’s and other 
health care work easier.

 

I should have asked about how “MRI compatible” works!  Now I’m curious.

 

Dan

 

 

From: MIKE SHERMAN [mailto:msherma...@comcast.net 
<mailto:msherma...@comcast.net> ] 
Sent: Thursday, November 03, 2022 8:52 PM
To: EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG <mailto:EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG> 
Subject: Re: [PSES] Magnetic fields, human exposure standards, and pacemakers

 

Dan -- 

 

I'd suggest that you have your relative call Support at the pacemaker/defib 
manufacturer. On a slightly different project, I found a lot of on-line 
information about device immunity, and I think we even called Support and got 
additional clarifying information. Go to the source!

Mike Sherman 

Sherman PSC LLC 

Product Safety and Compliance Consulting 

On 11/03/2022 11:32 AM Dan Roman 
<0d75e04ed751-dmarc-requ...@listserv.ieee.org 
<mailto:0d75e04ed751-dmarc-requ...@listserv.ieee.org> > wrote: 

 

 

Hello list!

 

I have a relative with an implanted pacemaker/defibrillator who recently got a 
fitness tracker that has a magnet for attachment/alignment of the charging 
cord.  There are warnings in the user manual advising against people with 
pacemakers using this product because of the magnets, which I assume are fairly 
strong rare earth types.  I looked up the DoC for the tracker and the EM field 
human exposure standards EN 50663 an

Re: [PSES] Magnetic fields, human exposure standards, and pacemakers

2022-11-07 Thread Chas Grasso 
Hello Dan,

Dont you think that (irrespective of the warning ) the magnet on the DC
cord is *much* weaker than a magnet used to penetrate through the thickness
of the human body and then trigger the reed switches? My first thought is
that the warning is there as a CYA? Perhaps?

On Sun, Nov 6, 2022 at 2:06 PM Dan Roman <
0d75e04ed751-dmarc-requ...@listserv.ieee.org> wrote:

> * This message originated outside of DISH and was sent by:
> 0d75e04ed751-dmarc-requ...@listserv.ieee.org
> <0d75e04ed751-dmarc-requ...@listserv.ieee.org> *
> --
>
> Thank you everyone for the responses.  Contacting the customer support
> number gets you to someone who basically reads back what is on the website
> and the user manual, so it was not particularly helpful when trying to get
> to the specifics.
>
>
>
> In a roundabout way through a friend of a friend I managed to arrange a
> phone call with someone from Boston Scientific that had technical
> engineering knowledge and could answer my questions.  The device in
> question is a pacemaker/defibrillator.  It happens to be MRI compatible but
> I didn’t get into what that means with respect to magnetic fields, I think
> it probably has a lot to do with not getting ripped out of your chest if
> you get an MRI.
>
>
>
> Anyway, it has two sets of reed switches embedded in it.  One reed switch
> will react to a lower level magnet placed over it and that puts it into a
> fixed pacing mode.  This is used for diagnosing in the doctor’s office.
> The magnet in a fitness tracker is not likely to be strong enough or to get
> close enough to turn on the fixed pacing mode during normal wear, but they
> still will tell you not to wear it to bed in case you contort in such a way
> when sleeping to cause an issue.
>
>
>
> The second reed switch reacts only to a much stronger magnetic field and
> this is used to disable the defibrillator if you go in for an operation.
> The anesthesiologist will apply a strong magnet over the device to disable
> it for the duration of the operation.  Makes sense that as that is easier
> than connecting up a programming device to disable it and then re-enable it
> and it can be easily turned off in an emergency situation with no need for
> a make/model specific programming set.
>
>
>
> So the relative is going to keep the fitness tracker and not wear it to
> bed (most of the time).  They lose the sleep tracking but that is not of as
> much interest to them and they don’t have it when sleeping every few days
> to charge it overnight anyway.
>
>
>
> Not sure if all devices work the same way but sounds like for
> simplification reasons this might be a standardized practice to make
> surgeon’s and other health care work easier.
>
>
>
> I should have asked about how “MRI compatible” works!  Now I’m curious.
>
>
>
> Dan
>
>
>
>
>
> *From:* MIKE SHERMAN [mailto:msherma...@comcast.net]
> *Sent:* Thursday, November 03, 2022 8:52 PM
> *To:* EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG
> *Subject:* Re: [PSES] Magnetic fields, human exposure standards, and
> pacemakers
>
>
>
> Dan --
>
>
>
> I'd suggest that you have your relative call Support at the
> pacemaker/defib manufacturer. On a slightly different project, I found a
> lot of on-line information about device immunity, and I think we even
> called Support and got additional clarifying information. Go to the source!
>
> Mike Sherman
>
> Sherman PSC LLC
>
> Product Safety and Compliance Consulting
>
> On 11/03/2022 11:32 AM Dan Roman <
> 0d75e04ed751-dmarc-requ...@listserv.ieee.org> wrote:
>
>
>
>
>
> Hello list!
>
>
>
> I have a relative with an implanted pacemaker/defibrillator who recently
> got a fitness tracker that has a magnet for attachment/alignment of the
> charging cord.  There are warnings in the user manual advising against
> people with pacemakers using this product because of the magnets, which I
> assume are fairly strong rare earth types.  I looked up the DoC for the
> tracker and the EM field human exposure standards EN 50663 and EN 62479 are
> listed on the DoC.  My question is do these standards and the similar IEC
> 62233 give a reasonable assurance that a pacemaker would not be interfered
> with or are these standards purely concerned with biological effects on the
> human body only?  I would expect the pacemaker to be immune to a certain
> extent if it is FDA listed and complies with IEC 60601-1-2.  I don’t know
> the model number of their device but I would expect them all to be
> similar.  Do they need to send back their fitness tracker?  Or is the
> warning just thrown in because the lawyers wanted it?
>
&

Re: [PSES] Magnetic fields, human exposure standards, and pacemakers

2022-11-06 Thread Dan Roman 
Thank you everyone for the responses.  Contacting the customer support number 
gets you to someone who basically reads back what is on the website and the 
user manual, so it was not particularly helpful when trying to get to the 
specifics.

 

In a roundabout way through a friend of a friend I managed to arrange a phone 
call with someone from Boston Scientific that had technical engineering 
knowledge and could answer my questions.  The device in question is a 
pacemaker/defibrillator.  It happens to be MRI compatible but I didn’t get into 
what that means with respect to magnetic fields, I think it probably has a lot 
to do with not getting ripped out of your chest if you get an MRI.

 

Anyway, it has two sets of reed switches embedded in it.  One reed switch will 
react to a lower level magnet placed over it and that puts it into a fixed 
pacing mode.  This is used for diagnosing in the doctor’s office.  The magnet 
in a fitness tracker is not likely to be strong enough or to get close enough 
to turn on the fixed pacing mode during normal wear, but they still will tell 
you not to wear it to bed in case you contort in such a way when sleeping to 
cause an issue.

 

The second reed switch reacts only to a much stronger magnetic field and this 
is used to disable the defibrillator if you go in for an operation.  The 
anesthesiologist will apply a strong magnet over the device to disable it for 
the duration of the operation.  Makes sense that as that is easier than 
connecting up a programming device to disable it and then re-enable it and it 
can be easily turned off in an emergency situation with no need for a 
make/model specific programming set.

 

So the relative is going to keep the fitness tracker and not wear it to bed 
(most of the time).  They lose the sleep tracking but that is not of as much 
interest to them and they don’t have it when sleeping every few days to charge 
it overnight anyway.

 

Not sure if all devices work the same way but sounds like for simplification 
reasons this might be a standardized practice to make surgeon’s and other 
health care work easier.

 

I should have asked about how “MRI compatible” works!  Now I’m curious.

 

Dan

 

 

From: MIKE SHERMAN [mailto:msherma...@comcast.net] 
Sent: Thursday, November 03, 2022 8:52 PM
To: EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG
Subject: Re: [PSES] Magnetic fields, human exposure standards, and pacemakers

 

Dan -- 

 

I'd suggest that you have your relative call Support at the pacemaker/defib 
manufacturer. On a slightly different project, I found a lot of on-line 
information about device immunity, and I think we even called Support and got 
additional clarifying information. Go to the source!

Mike Sherman 

Sherman PSC LLC 

Product Safety and Compliance Consulting 

On 11/03/2022 11:32 AM Dan Roman 
<0d75e04ed751-dmarc-requ...@listserv.ieee.org 
<mailto:0d75e04ed751-dmarc-requ...@listserv.ieee.org> > wrote: 

 

 

Hello list!

 

I have a relative with an implanted pacemaker/defibrillator who recently got a 
fitness tracker that has a magnet for attachment/alignment of the charging 
cord.  There are warnings in the user manual advising against people with 
pacemakers using this product because of the magnets, which I assume are fairly 
strong rare earth types.  I looked up the DoC for the tracker and the EM field 
human exposure standards EN 50663 and EN 62479 are listed on the DoC.  My 
question is do these standards and the similar IEC 62233 give a reasonable 
assurance that a pacemaker would not be interfered with or are these standards 
purely concerned with biological effects on the human body only?  I would 
expect the pacemaker to be immune to a certain extent if it is FDA listed and 
complies with IEC 60601-1-2.  I don’t know the model number of their device but 
I would expect them all to be similar.  Do they need to send back their fitness 
tracker?  Or is the warning just thrown in because the lawyers wanted it?

 

Although products I work on need to meet these types of standards, I don’t have 
much familiarity with these exposure standards because my products have never 
failed

 

Regards,

 

Dan

 

__
Dan Roman, N.C.E.

Senior Member

IEEE Product Safety Engineering Society

mailto:dan.ro...@ieee.org



 

 

 

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Re: [PSES] Magnetic fields, human exposure standards, and pacemakers

2022-11-03 Thread MIKE SHERMAN 
Dan --

I'd suggest that you have your relative call Support at the pacemaker/defib 
manufacturer. On a slightly different project, I found a lot of on-line 
information about device immunity, and I think we even called Support and got 
additional clarifying information. Go to the source!

Mike Sherman
Sherman PSC LLC
Product Safety and Compliance Consulting

> On 11/03/2022 11:32 AM Dan Roman 
> <0d75e04ed751-dmarc-requ...@listserv.ieee.org> wrote:
> 
> 
> 
> Hello list!
> 
>  
> 
> I have a relative with an implanted pacemaker/defibrillator who recently 
> got a fitness tracker that has a magnet for attachment/alignment of the 
> charging cord.  There are warnings in the user manual advising against people 
> with pacemakers using this product because of the magnets, which I assume are 
> fairly strong rare earth types.  I looked up the DoC for the tracker and the 
> EM field human exposure standards EN 50663 and EN 62479 are listed on the 
> DoC.  My question is do these standards and the similar IEC 62233 give a 
> reasonable assurance that a pacemaker would not be interfered with or are 
> these standards purely concerned with biological effects on the human body 
> only?  I would expect the pacemaker to be immune to a certain extent if it is 
> FDA listed and complies with IEC 60601-1-2.  I don’t know the model number of 
> their device but I would expect them all to be similar.  Do they need to send 
> back their fitness tracker?  Or is the warning just thrown in because the 
> lawyers wanted it?
> 
>  
> 
> Although products I work on need to meet these types of standards, I 
> don’t have much familiarity with these exposure standards because my products 
> have never failed
> 
>  
> 
> Regards,
> 
>  
> 
> Dan
> 
>  
> 
> __
> Dan Roman, N.C.E.
> 
> Senior Member
> 
> IEEE Product Safety Engineering Society
> 
> mailto:dan.ro...@ieee.org mailto:dan.ro...@ieee.org
> 
> 
> 
>  
> 
> 
> 
> -
> 
> 
> This message is from the IEEE Product Safety Engineering Society emc-pstc 
> discussion list. To post a message to the list, send your e-mail to 
> mailto:emc-p...@ieee.org >
> 
> All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at: 
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Re: [PSES] Magnetic fields, human exposure standards, and pacemakers

2022-11-03 Thread Douglas Nix 
Hi Dan,

So the issue here is that pacemakers are designed to be stopped with the use of 
a permanent magnet. When the cardiologist is checking the operation of the 
pacemaker in the office, they will stop it by placing a permanent magnet on the 
chest of the patient. They can then see how the heart is behaving in the 
absence of the pacing signal, and decide what, if any, changes need to be made. 
The pacemaker should be functionally immune to most AC magnetic fields that a 
person would experience in normal life.

As to what EN 50663, EN 62479 and IEC 62233 have to say about patient safety 
WRT magnetic fields, I can’t say as I don’t know these documents. I’d say that 
a problem is unlikely, since a widespread problem would be in the news, but I 
can’t venture more than that.

--
Doug Nix
d...@mac.com
+1 (519) 729-5704

"Any sufficiently advanced technology is indistinguishable from magic."
Arthur C. Clarke 



> On Nov 3, 2022, at 12:32, Dan Roman 
> <0d75e04ed751-dmarc-requ...@listserv.ieee.org> wrote:
> 
> Hello list!
>  
> I have a relative with an implanted pacemaker/defibrillator who recently got 
> a fitness tracker that has a magnet for attachment/alignment of the charging 
> cord.  There are warnings in the user manual advising against people with 
> pacemakers using this product because of the magnets, which I assume are 
> fairly strong rare earth types.  I looked up the DoC for the tracker and the 
> EM field human exposure standards EN 50663 and EN 62479 are listed on the 
> DoC.  My question is do these standards and the similar IEC 62233 give a 
> reasonable assurance that a pacemaker would not be interfered with or are 
> these standards purely concerned with biological effects on the human body 
> only?  I would expect the pacemaker to be immune to a certain extent if it is 
> FDA listed and complies with IEC 60601-1-2.  I don’t know the model number of 
> their device but I would expect them all to be similar.  Do they need to send 
> back their fitness tracker?  Or is the warning just thrown in because the 
> lawyers wanted it?
>  
> Although products I work on need to meet these types of standards, I don’t 
> have much familiarity with these exposure standards because my products have 
> never failed
>  
> Regards,
>  
> Dan
>  
> __
> Dan Roman, N.C.E.
> Senior Member
> IEEE Product Safety Engineering Society
> mailto:dan.ro...@ieee.org
> 
> 
>  
>  
>  
> -
> 
> This message is from the IEEE Product Safety Engineering Society emc-pstc 
> discussion list. To post a message to the list, send your e-mail to 
> mailto:emc-p...@ieee.org>>
> 
> All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at: 
> http://www.ieee-pses.org/emc-pstc.html
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Re: [PSES] Magnetic fields, human exposure standards, and pacemakers

2022-11-03 Thread Richard Nute 
 

Mains power lines running overhead make magnetic fields at 50/60 hertz….

 

I lived near Barcelona, Spain, for almost two years.  The local trains used 
overhead lines.  The stations used color CRT displays for train info.  You 
could tell when a train was arriving as the display would distort (you couldn’t 
decipher the display) proportional to the current in the overhead line.  When 
the train stopped, the display was normal again.  

 

Rich

 

 


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Re: [PSES] Magnetic fields, human exposure standards, and pacemakers

2022-11-03 Thread Bill Owsley 
Recall from school that the H field roll off is third order.  The size of the 
magnets is small, about 1/8 inch on the ones I have.For comparison, the speaker 
magnetics in some smart phones are a bit larger and stronger.  And the phone 
NFC, near field communication, uses AC magnetic fields. Oh, and those speaker 
and power port magnetics are DC.Another comparison, the shoplifting detector 
devices at the doors of many retail shops are not DC, but AC magnetic fields 
that tends operate at about 15-25 kilowatts. So pacemakers and other magnetic 
sensitive devices are designed to go into a default safe mode of operation if 
interference is detected.  Ps, the devices also have recorders built in which 
the doctors read for events, and lawyers can use. 3 family members have pace 
makers, etc.  I am not concerned for their safety.
The lawyers put the statements to say you were warned as a defense.There is an 
abundance of caution with all concerned since there is an assumption of life 
safety of the public.  Testing for life safety is done by proxy and gross 
assumptions. 
After thought, the old CRT TV's had strong magnetic fields and no warnings 
either. And probably no pace makers in that time. Mains power lines running 
overhead make magnetic fields at 50/60 hertz, as does your kitchen oven, 
similar to human heart rate.  





Sent from Yahoo Mail on Android 
 
  On Thu, Nov 3, 2022 at 12:32, Dan 
Roman<0d75e04ed751-dmarc-requ...@listserv.ieee.org> wrote:   

Hello list!

  

I have a relative with an implanted pacemaker/defibrillator who recently got a 
fitness tracker that has a magnet for attachment/alignment of the charging 
cord.  There are warnings in the user manual advising against people with 
pacemakers using this product because of the magnets, which I assume are fairly 
strong rare earth types.  I looked up the DoC for the tracker and the EM field 
human exposure standards EN 50663 and EN 62479 are listed on the DoC.  My 
question is do these standards and the similar IEC 62233 give a reasonable 
assurance that a pacemaker would not be interfered with or are these standards 
purely concerned with biological effects on the human body only?  I would 
expect the pacemaker to be immune to a certain extent if it is FDA listed and 
complies with IEC 60601-1-2.  I don’t know the model number of their device but 
I would expect them all to be similar.  Do they need to send back their fitness 
tracker?  Or is the warning just thrown in because the lawyers wanted it?

  

Although products I work on need to meet these types of standards, I don’t have 
much familiarity with these exposure standards because my products have never 
failed

  

Regards,

  

Dan

  

__
Dan Roman, N.C.E.

Senior Member

IEEE Product Safety Engineering Society

mailto:dan.ro...@ieee.org



 

 

  
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