Re: [PSES] UL Listed Fuse vs Recognized

2020-05-12 Thread John Allen 
This is great information, thank you Scott.

And thanks to everyone else who guided an old school compliance guy - We’re 
always learning!!

Be safe out there,

John

From: Scott Aldous 
Sent: Tuesday, May 12, 2020 10:47 AM
To: John Allen 
Cc: EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG
Subject: Re: [PSES] UL Listed Fuse vs Recognized

There is some additional information in this 
article<https://japan.ul.com/wp-content/uploads/2014/04/ul_OvercurrentProtectionSupplementary.pdf>
 from UL. It makes the important point that unlike circuit breakers, 
supplemental fuses can be either Listed or Recognized. Important to note that 
the JDYX category from UL is a category specifically for supplemental fuses 
that are Listed, with JDYX2 the category for Recognized supplemental fuses (to 
US standards).

Supplemental fuses are evaluated to UL 248-14 (in conjunction with UL 248-1) 
for either Listing or Recognition, with branch-circuit protection fuses listed 
to other parts of the UL 248 series depending on the fuse type (see UL 
categories JDDZ, JDRX, and JEFV). Supplemental fuses are generally not 
physically able to fit into fuse holders for branch-circuit protection fuse 
types.

Comparing the UL guide information for JDYX vs JDYX2 reveals that the 
information between the two is very similar, with JDYX having information about 
product markings and identity that JDYX2 does not, and JDYX2 having caveats 
about the device being only acceptable in the final equipment installation and 
conditions of acceptability that JDYX does not.

The UL article linked to above and the excellent fuseology reference from Eaton 
Bussmann<https://www.eaton.com/content/dam/eaton/markets/machinebuilding/protect-personnel-assets-and-machine-reliability/documents/documents-english-language/bus-ele-br-10757-fuseology.pdf>
 on page 35 point out that there are some exceptions where the NEC allows 
supplemental fuses to be installed in installations rather than just inside 
equipment, with some examples from the Eaton/Bussmann catalog on subsequent 
pages of fuses that could be used for those purposes, all of which are Listed. 
I assume that any fuse used in a permanent installation would need to be Listed 
rather than Recognized.

On Tue, May 12, 2020 at 5:31 AM John Allen 
mailto:jral...@productsafetyinc.com>> wrote:
Thanks Ted, very helpful!!

Be Safe,

John


From: Ted Eckert 
<07cf6ebeab9d-dmarc-requ...@listserv.ieee.org<mailto:07cf6ebeab9d-dmarc-requ...@listserv.ieee.org>>
Sent: Monday, May 11, 2020 3:07 PM
To: EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG<mailto:EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG>
Subject: Re: [PSES] UL Listed Fuse vs Recognized

I forgot to add a link. There is a little more information here.
https://code-authorities.ul.com/wp-content/uploads/2014/09/CircuitBreaker_MG.pdf


From: Ted Eckert 
<07cf6ebeab9d-dmarc-requ...@listserv.ieee.org<mailto:07cf6ebeab9d-dmarc-requ...@listserv.ieee.org>>
Sent: Monday, May 11, 2020 1:04 PM
To: EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG<mailto:EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG>
Subject: [EXTERNAL] Re: [PSES] UL Listed Fuse vs Recognized

Hello John,

Others can probably provide a better answer than I can, but I’ll make an 
attempt.

Fuses and circuit breakers are extremely safety-critical. The Listed 
overcurrent protectors are typically for building power distribution. Long ago, 
replacing blown fuses was a common task for a homeowner. The fuses had to be 
designed to a higher level of safety because the installation was somewhat 
uncontrolled. The Listed versions are tested to a level where it acceptable for 
handling by general users rather than by instructed or trained personnel. The 
Listed overcurrent protectors should fail gracefully with high currents from 
ground faults.

Recognized overcurrent protectors are generally not acceptable for branch 
circuit protection where they could be reset or replaced by a general uses. UL 
has different standards for Molded Case Circuit Breakers and Supplementary 
Overcurrent Protectors, with the latter often being the Recognized components. 
As the standard name implies, they supplement the branch circuit protection and 
do not replace it. Recognized fuses may often ben internal to a device where 
they are within a fire enclosure and only accessible to service personnel.

This is a bit of an oversimplification, but I hope it helps clear it up a 
little.

Regards,
Ted Eckert

The opinions expressed do not necessarily reflect those of my employer or UL.

From: John Allen 
mailto:jral...@productsafetyinc.com>>
Sent: Monday, May 11, 2020 11:19 AM
To: EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG<mailto:EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG>
Subject: [EXTERNAL] [PSES] UL Listed Fuse vs Recognized

Hi,

I hope everyone is good, healthy and being safe.

Does anyone have an accurate explanation of how a fuse can be UL Listed vs UR?  
 A fuse cannot stand alone as with other UL Listed prod

Re: [PSES] UL Listed Fuse vs Recognized

2020-05-12 Thread Scott Aldous 
There is some additional information in this article
<https://japan.ul.com/wp-content/uploads/2014/04/ul_OvercurrentProtectionSupplementary.pdf>
from UL. It makes the important point that unlike circuit breakers,
supplemental fuses can be either Listed or Recognized. Important to note
that the JDYX category from UL is a category specifically for supplemental
fuses that are Listed, with JDYX2 the category for Recognized supplemental
fuses (to US standards).

Supplemental fuses are evaluated to UL 248-14 (in conjunction with UL
248-1) for either Listing or Recognition, with branch-circuit protection
fuses listed to other parts of the UL 248 series depending on the fuse type
(see UL categories JDDZ, JDRX, and JEFV). Supplemental fuses are generally
not physically able to fit into fuse holders for branch-circuit protection
fuse types.

Comparing the UL guide information for JDYX vs JDYX2 reveals that the
information between the two is very similar, with JDYX having information
about product markings and identity that JDYX2 does not, and JDYX2 having
caveats about the device being only acceptable in the final equipment
installation and conditions of acceptability that JDYX does not.

The UL article linked to above and the excellent fuseology reference from
Eaton Bussmann
<https://www.eaton.com/content/dam/eaton/markets/machinebuilding/protect-personnel-assets-and-machine-reliability/documents/documents-english-language/bus-ele-br-10757-fuseology.pdf>
on
page 35 point out that there are some exceptions where the NEC allows
supplemental fuses to be installed in installations rather than just inside
equipment, with some examples from the Eaton/Bussmann catalog on subsequent
pages of fuses that could be used for those purposes, all of which are
Listed. I assume that any fuse used in a permanent installation would need
to be Listed rather than Recognized.

On Tue, May 12, 2020 at 5:31 AM John Allen 
wrote:

> Thanks Ted, very helpful!!
>
>
>
> Be Safe,
>
>
>
> John
>
>
>
>
>
> *From:* Ted Eckert <07cf6ebeab9d-dmarc-requ...@listserv.ieee.org>
> *Sent:* Monday, May 11, 2020 3:07 PM
> *To:* EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG
> *Subject:* Re: [PSES] UL Listed Fuse vs Recognized
>
>
>
> I forgot to add a link. There is a little more information here.
>
>
> https://code-authorities.ul.com/wp-content/uploads/2014/09/CircuitBreaker_MG.pdf
>
>
>
>
>
> *From:* Ted Eckert <07cf6ebeab9d-dmarc-requ...@listserv.ieee.org>
> *Sent:* Monday, May 11, 2020 1:04 PM
> *To:* EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG
> *Subject:* [EXTERNAL] Re: [PSES] UL Listed Fuse vs Recognized
>
>
>
> Hello John,
>
>
>
> Others can probably provide a better answer than I can, but I’ll make an
> attempt.
>
>
>
> Fuses and circuit breakers are extremely safety-critical. The Listed
> overcurrent protectors are typically for building power distribution. Long
> ago, replacing blown fuses was a common task for a homeowner. The fuses had
> to be designed to a higher level of safety because the installation was
> somewhat uncontrolled. The Listed versions are tested to a level where it
> acceptable for handling by general users rather than by instructed or
> trained personnel. The Listed overcurrent protectors should fail gracefully
> with high currents from ground faults.
>
>
>
> Recognized overcurrent protectors are generally not acceptable for branch
> circuit protection where they could be reset or replaced by a general uses.
> UL has different standards for Molded Case Circuit Breakers and
> Supplementary Overcurrent Protectors, with the latter often being the
> Recognized components. As the standard name implies, they supplement the
> branch circuit protection and do not replace it. Recognized fuses may often
> ben internal to a device where they are within a fire enclosure and only
> accessible to service personnel.
>
>
>
> This is a bit of an oversimplification, but I hope it helps clear it up a
> little.
>
>
>
> Regards,
>
> Ted Eckert
>
>
>
> The opinions expressed do not necessarily reflect those of my employer or
> UL.
>
>
>
> *From:* John Allen 
> *Sent:* Monday, May 11, 2020 11:19 AM
> *To:* EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG
> *Subject:* [EXTERNAL] [PSES] UL Listed Fuse vs Recognized
>
>
>
> Hi,
>
>
>
> I hope everyone is good, healthy and being safe.
>
>
>
> Does anyone have an accurate explanation of how a fuse can be UL Listed vs
> UR?   A fuse cannot stand alone as with other UL Listed products.
>
>
>
> UL categories are JDYX, JDYX2
>
>
>
> Thank you and Be Safe,
>
>
>
> John
>
>
>
> -
> 
>
> This message is from

Re: [PSES] UL Listed Fuse vs Recognized

2020-05-12 Thread John Allen 
Thanks Ted, very helpful!!

Be Safe,

John


From: Ted Eckert <07cf6ebeab9d-dmarc-requ...@listserv.ieee.org>
Sent: Monday, May 11, 2020 3:07 PM
To: EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG
Subject: Re: [PSES] UL Listed Fuse vs Recognized

I forgot to add a link. There is a little more information here.
https://code-authorities.ul.com/wp-content/uploads/2014/09/CircuitBreaker_MG.pdf


From: Ted Eckert 
<07cf6ebeab9d-dmarc-requ...@listserv.ieee.org<mailto:07cf6ebeab9d-dmarc-requ...@listserv.ieee.org>>
Sent: Monday, May 11, 2020 1:04 PM
To: EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG<mailto:EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG>
Subject: [EXTERNAL] Re: [PSES] UL Listed Fuse vs Recognized

Hello John,

Others can probably provide a better answer than I can, but I'll make an 
attempt.

Fuses and circuit breakers are extremely safety-critical. The Listed 
overcurrent protectors are typically for building power distribution. Long ago, 
replacing blown fuses was a common task for a homeowner. The fuses had to be 
designed to a higher level of safety because the installation was somewhat 
uncontrolled. The Listed versions are tested to a level where it acceptable for 
handling by general users rather than by instructed or trained personnel. The 
Listed overcurrent protectors should fail gracefully with high currents from 
ground faults.

Recognized overcurrent protectors are generally not acceptable for branch 
circuit protection where they could be reset or replaced by a general uses. UL 
has different standards for Molded Case Circuit Breakers and Supplementary 
Overcurrent Protectors, with the latter often being the Recognized components. 
As the standard name implies, they supplement the branch circuit protection and 
do not replace it. Recognized fuses may often ben internal to a device where 
they are within a fire enclosure and only accessible to service personnel.

This is a bit of an oversimplification, but I hope it helps clear it up a 
little.

Regards,
Ted Eckert

The opinions expressed do not necessarily reflect those of my employer or UL.

From: John Allen 
mailto:jral...@productsafetyinc.com>>
Sent: Monday, May 11, 2020 11:19 AM
To: EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG<mailto:EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG>
Subject: [EXTERNAL] [PSES] UL Listed Fuse vs Recognized

Hi,

I hope everyone is good, healthy and being safe.

Does anyone have an accurate explanation of how a fuse can be UL Listed vs UR?  
 A fuse cannot stand alone as with other UL Listed products.

UL categories are JDYX, JDYX2

Thank you and Be Safe,

John

-


This message is from the IEEE Product Safety Engineering Society emc-pstc 
discussion list. To post a message to the list, send your e-mail to 
mailto:emc-p...@ieee.org>>

All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at: 
http://www.ieee-pses.org/emc-pstc.html<https://nam06.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.ieee-pses.org%2Femc-pstc.html&data=02%7C01%7Cted.eckert%40microsoft.com%7C3eff6659049e4955f82708d7f5e67809%7C72f988bf86f141af91ab2d7cd011db47%7C0%7C0%7C637248242520195139&sdata=U98pEwZYnXOvWylQ88SWA5AxVLElitNSIZyVaxW9o1s%3D&reserved=0>

Attachments are not permitted but the IEEE PSES Online Communities site at 
http://product-compliance.oc.ieee.org/<https://nam06.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=http%3A%2F%2Fproduct-compliance.oc.ieee.org%2F&data=02%7C01%7Cted.eckert%40microsoft.com%7C3eff6659049e4955f82708d7f5e67809%7C72f988bf86f141af91ab2d7cd011db47%7C0%7C0%7C637248242520205102&sdata=sWyCXGCDxvZU8gaQGCRc2z%2Bg1pfss3mk7SJrZ9Qbm80%3D&reserved=0>
 can be used for graphics (in well-used formats), large files, etc.

Website: 
http://www.ieee-pses.org/<https://nam06.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.ieee-pses.org%2F&data=02%7C01%7Cted.eckert%40microsoft.com%7C3eff6659049e4955f82708d7f5e67809%7C72f988bf86f141af91ab2d7cd011db47%7C0%7C0%7C637248242520205102&sdata=WdmPN%2BVJizqxj7bGVl5jo6FlFtUW2b%2F5eGJ1rHgGQ7I%3D&reserved=0>
Instructions: http://www.ieee-pses.org/list.html (including how to 
unsubscribe)<https://nam06.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.ieee-pses.org%2Flist.html&data=02%7C01%7Cted.eckert%40microsoft.com%7C3eff6659049e4955f82708d7f5e67809%7C72f988bf86f141af91ab2d7cd011db47%7C0%7C0%7C637248242520215057&sdata=zE7oiwPWuSYWY7VAOdcByGGcZ7BcfqDc7cJJh1fFB2c%3D&reserved=0>
List rules: 
http://www.ieee-pses.org/listrules.html<https://nam06.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.ieee-pses.org%2Flistrules.html&data=02%7C01%7Cted.eckert%40microsoft.com%7C3eff6659049e4955f82708d7f5e67809%7C72f988bf86f141af91ab2d7cd011db47%7C0%7C0%7C637248242520215057&sdata=c0Et%2ByFn8XvmTgB9brhToWyK5op%2Fm%2BrrFrlUZUCCkNw%3D&reserved=0>

For help, send mail to the list administrators:
Scott Douglas mailto:sdoug...@ieee.org>>
Mike Cant

Re: [PSES] UL Listed Fuse vs Recognized

2020-05-11 Thread Ted Eckert 
I forgot to add a link. There is a little more information here.
https://code-authorities.ul.com/wp-content/uploads/2014/09/CircuitBreaker_MG.pdf


From: Ted Eckert <07cf6ebeab9d-dmarc-requ...@listserv.ieee.org>
Sent: Monday, May 11, 2020 1:04 PM
To: EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG
Subject: [EXTERNAL] Re: [PSES] UL Listed Fuse vs Recognized

Hello John,

Others can probably provide a better answer than I can, but I'll make an 
attempt.

Fuses and circuit breakers are extremely safety-critical. The Listed 
overcurrent protectors are typically for building power distribution. Long ago, 
replacing blown fuses was a common task for a homeowner. The fuses had to be 
designed to a higher level of safety because the installation was somewhat 
uncontrolled. The Listed versions are tested to a level where it acceptable for 
handling by general users rather than by instructed or trained personnel. The 
Listed overcurrent protectors should fail gracefully with high currents from 
ground faults.

Recognized overcurrent protectors are generally not acceptable for branch 
circuit protection where they could be reset or replaced by a general uses. UL 
has different standards for Molded Case Circuit Breakers and Supplementary 
Overcurrent Protectors, with the latter often being the Recognized components. 
As the standard name implies, they supplement the branch circuit protection and 
do not replace it. Recognized fuses may often ben internal to a device where 
they are within a fire enclosure and only accessible to service personnel.

This is a bit of an oversimplification, but I hope it helps clear it up a 
little.

Regards,
Ted Eckert

The opinions expressed do not necessarily reflect those of my employer or UL.

From: John Allen 
mailto:jral...@productsafetyinc.com>>
Sent: Monday, May 11, 2020 11:19 AM
To: EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG<mailto:EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG>
Subject: [EXTERNAL] [PSES] UL Listed Fuse vs Recognized

Hi,

I hope everyone is good, healthy and being safe.

Does anyone have an accurate explanation of how a fuse can be UL Listed vs UR?  
 A fuse cannot stand alone as with other UL Listed products.

UL categories are JDYX, JDYX2

Thank you and Be Safe,

John

-


This message is from the IEEE Product Safety Engineering Society emc-pstc 
discussion list. To post a message to the list, send your e-mail to 
mailto:emc-p...@ieee.org>>

All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at: 
http://www.ieee-pses.org/emc-pstc.html<https://nam06.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.ieee-pses.org%2Femc-pstc.html&data=02%7C01%7Cted.eckert%40microsoft.com%7C3eff6659049e4955f82708d7f5e67809%7C72f988bf86f141af91ab2d7cd011db47%7C0%7C0%7C637248242520195139&sdata=U98pEwZYnXOvWylQ88SWA5AxVLElitNSIZyVaxW9o1s%3D&reserved=0>

Attachments are not permitted but the IEEE PSES Online Communities site at 
http://product-compliance.oc.ieee.org/<https://nam06.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=http%3A%2F%2Fproduct-compliance.oc.ieee.org%2F&data=02%7C01%7Cted.eckert%40microsoft.com%7C3eff6659049e4955f82708d7f5e67809%7C72f988bf86f141af91ab2d7cd011db47%7C0%7C0%7C637248242520205102&sdata=sWyCXGCDxvZU8gaQGCRc2z%2Bg1pfss3mk7SJrZ9Qbm80%3D&reserved=0>
 can be used for graphics (in well-used formats), large files, etc.

Website: 
http://www.ieee-pses.org/<https://nam06.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.ieee-pses.org%2F&data=02%7C01%7Cted.eckert%40microsoft.com%7C3eff6659049e4955f82708d7f5e67809%7C72f988bf86f141af91ab2d7cd011db47%7C0%7C0%7C637248242520205102&sdata=WdmPN%2BVJizqxj7bGVl5jo6FlFtUW2b%2F5eGJ1rHgGQ7I%3D&reserved=0>
Instructions: http://www.ieee-pses.org/list.html (including how to 
unsubscribe)<https://nam06.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.ieee-pses.org%2Flist.html&data=02%7C01%7Cted.eckert%40microsoft.com%7C3eff6659049e4955f82708d7f5e67809%7C72f988bf86f141af91ab2d7cd011db47%7C0%7C0%7C637248242520215057&sdata=zE7oiwPWuSYWY7VAOdcByGGcZ7BcfqDc7cJJh1fFB2c%3D&reserved=0>
List rules: 
http://www.ieee-pses.org/listrules.html<https://nam06.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.ieee-pses.org%2Flistrules.html&data=02%7C01%7Cted.eckert%40microsoft.com%7C3eff6659049e4955f82708d7f5e67809%7C72f988bf86f141af91ab2d7cd011db47%7C0%7C0%7C637248242520215057&sdata=c0Et%2ByFn8XvmTgB9brhToWyK5op%2Fm%2BrrFrlUZUCCkNw%3D&reserved=0>

For help, send mail to the list administrators:
Scott Douglas mailto:sdoug...@ieee.org>>
Mike Cantwell mailto:mcantw...@ieee.org>>

For policy questions, send mail to:
Jim Bacher mailto:j.bac...@ieee.org>>
David Heald mailto:dhe...@gmail.com>>
-


This message is from the IEEE Product Safety Engineering Society emc-pstc 
discussion list. To post a message

Re: [PSES] UL Listed Fuse vs Recognized

2020-05-11 Thread Ted Eckert 
Hello John,

Others can probably provide a better answer than I can, but I'll make an 
attempt.

Fuses and circuit breakers are extremely safety-critical. The Listed 
overcurrent protectors are typically for building power distribution. Long ago, 
replacing blown fuses was a common task for a homeowner. The fuses had to be 
designed to a higher level of safety because the installation was somewhat 
uncontrolled. The Listed versions are tested to a level where it acceptable for 
handling by general users rather than by instructed or trained personnel. The 
Listed overcurrent protectors should fail gracefully with high currents from 
ground faults.

Recognized overcurrent protectors are generally not acceptable for branch 
circuit protection where they could be reset or replaced by a general uses. UL 
has different standards for Molded Case Circuit Breakers and Supplementary 
Overcurrent Protectors, with the latter often being the Recognized components. 
As the standard name implies, they supplement the branch circuit protection and 
do not replace it. Recognized fuses may often ben internal to a device where 
they are within a fire enclosure and only accessible to service personnel.

This is a bit of an oversimplification, but I hope it helps clear it up a 
little.

Regards,
Ted Eckert

The opinions expressed do not necessarily reflect those of my employer or UL.

From: John Allen 
Sent: Monday, May 11, 2020 11:19 AM
To: EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG
Subject: [EXTERNAL] [PSES] UL Listed Fuse vs Recognized

Hi,

I hope everyone is good, healthy and being safe.

Does anyone have an accurate explanation of how a fuse can be UL Listed vs UR?  
 A fuse cannot stand alone as with other UL Listed products.

UL categories are JDYX, JDYX2

Thank you and Be Safe,

John

-


This message is from the IEEE Product Safety Engineering Society emc-pstc 
discussion list. To post a message to the list, send your e-mail to 
mailto:emc-p...@ieee.org>>

All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at: 
http://www.ieee-pses.org/emc-pstc.html

Attachments are not permitted but the IEEE PSES Online Communities site at 
http://product-compliance.oc.ieee.org/
 can be used for graphics (in well-used formats), large files, etc.

Website: 
http://www.ieee-pses.org/
Instructions: http://www.ieee-pses.org/list.html (including how to 
unsubscribe)
List rules: 
http://www.ieee-pses.org/listrules.html

For help, send mail to the list administrators:
Scott Douglas mailto:sdoug...@ieee.org>>
Mike Cantwell mailto:mcantw...@ieee.org>>

For policy questions, send mail to:
Jim Bacher mailto:j.bac...@ieee.org>>
David Heald mailto:dhe...@gmail.com>>

-

This message is from the IEEE Product Safety Engineering Society emc-pstc 
discussion list. To post a message to the list, send your e-mail to 


All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at:
http://www.ieee-pses.org/emc-pstc.html

Attachments are not permitted but the IEEE PSES Online Communities site at 
http://product-compliance.oc.ieee.org/ can be used for graphics (in well-used 
formats), large files, etc.

Website:  http://www.ieee-pses.org/
Instructions:  http://www.ieee-pses.org/list.html (including how to unsubscribe)
List rules: http://www.ieee-pses.org/listrules.html

For help, send mail to the list administrators:
Scott Douglas 
Mike Cantwell