Re: [PSES] Wire Questions

2015-05-06 Thread John Allen 
Brian 

 

Can’t respond w.r.t. you para 1 question, but w.r.t. para 2:

-   IEC/EN 60799:1998  “Electrical accessories — Cord sets and
interconnection cord sets” (1998 edition is still valid AFAIK) is a good
guide to cordset ratings, and Table 1 allows ratings under 1 sq mm
(generally 0.75 sq mm) for cordsets rated up to 10A provided the length does
not exceed 2m, and 1 sq mm for cordsets rated at 16A (but 1.5 sq mm for
cordsets longer than 2m).

(must admit that I thought for a long time that 16A-rated cordsets needed to
be 1.5 sq mm regardless of length, but “found out” in a rather embarrassing
way that they do not!)

 

Regards

 

John Allen

W.London, UK

 

 

From: Kunde, Brian [mailto:brian_ku...@lecotc.com] 
Sent: 06 May 2015 17:09
To: EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG
Subject: Re: [PSES] Wire Questions

 

Didn’t I hear there was some kind of agreement where UL/CSA approved power
cordage was allowed to be used in Europe as long as the conductor size met
requirements?  If so, what is the official document which describes this
agreement?  

 

Doesn’t Europe have a minimum conductor size for detachable power cords of
1mm²?  I believe the IEC 60320 allows conductor size of 0.75mm² if the
overall cord length is less than 2 meter (or at least is was years ago).   

 

18AWG conductors on UL/CSA power cords for North America does not meet the
1mm² requirement so that is why we try to use 16AWG or 14AWG cord sets even
if they cannot be used outside of North America. 

 

In the real world, it is common for the plug to be cut off the power cord
and replaced with something local. In those cases, we want to be sure the
cordage is large enough to meet any local electrical codes. 

 

The Other Brian

 

From: John Allen [mailto:john_e_al...@blueyonder.co.uk] 
Sent: Tuesday, May 05, 2015 2:09 PM
To: Kunde, Brian
Cc: EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG
Subject: RE: [PSES] Wire Questions

 

Brian

 

Grounding Conductor size

 

An interesting question with respect to internal grounding conductors, and
one which made me refer to a very old copy of CSA Technical Note TN-017
“Bonding and Grounding of Electrical Equipment (Protective Grounding)”,
dated January 13, 1993, which I have – don’t know if there is a newer
version, but I suspect there is (if so, does anyone have a copy of this or
of whatever has replaced it?) so the following comments may well be
out-of-date!

 

TN-017 refers to CSA C22.0.4, which I don’t think I have, as the basic
requirements for grounding of equipment, so obviously not sure what that
currently states.

 

However: 

 

Page 2 of TN-017, under “Grounded (Class I) Equipment” states that 

“IEC standards require the ground path impedance to be less than or equal to
0.1 ohm. Although it is a satisfactory criteria for evaluating a path to
ground where overcurrent protection is rated or set at 15A and 20A, this
approach fails to provide proper protection when overcurrent devices are
rated or set at 30A or higher”

 

Page 6, Under “National Electric Code (NEC)” states:

“Article 250 of NEC defines grounding and bonding requirements for
installations of electrical equipment in the United States. Articles250-60,
250-95 and 250-155 also define min size of ground conductor required. Also
see Articles 250-42, 250-45, 250-59, 250-113 and 250-114.

 

NEC requires the following in particular.

 

(a)   Ground conductor must not be smaller than specified in Table 250-95
with the exceptions that the ground conductor:

i.  Must not be smaller than 18A AWG copper and not smaller than
circuit conductors.

ii. Need not be larger than the AC circuit conductors.

 

This means that the min cord size permitted is No 18 AWG, and min size of
ground conductor shall be No 18 AWG.

 

(b)   Ground conductor may be without insulation but if insulation is
provided, it shall be coloured green or green with one or more yellow
stripes.

(c)All non-current carrying metal parts of fixed, portable and mobile
equipment shall be grounded. Grounding conductors not part of cable assembly
must not be smaller that No 6 AWG.”

 

NB: w.r.t. (c) above, there are exceptions elsewhere for double-insulated
(etc.) equipment!

 

Can’t find any definitive statement in TN-017 as to the required internal
grounding conductor sizes, but, from the above, it seems to me that the
issue you mention relates to a combination of the following:

-   The IEC continuity test at 25A is only adequate at supply currents
which would be protected by a 15A/20A external breaker, which is probably
why 61010-1 states different – see below;

-   the potential AWG size of the external supply cord – and that the
grounding conductor needs to be > the size of the current-carrying
conductors; 

-   the current rating of the protection in the installation – and if
the latter is >15A/20A, then the internal conductor would have to be larger
than 18AWG.

 

Since you were using a 16AWG power cord in some cases, then that woul

Re: [PSES] Wire Questions

2015-05-06 Thread Kunde, Brian 
Didn't I hear there was some kind of agreement where UL/CSA approved power 
cordage was allowed to be used in Europe as long as the conductor size met 
requirements?  If so, what is the official document which describes this 
agreement?

Doesn't Europe have a minimum conductor size for detachable power cords of 
1mm²?  I believe the IEC 60320 allows conductor size of 0.75mm² if the overall 
cord length is less than 2 meter (or at least is was years ago).

18AWG conductors on UL/CSA power cords for North America does not meet the 1mm² 
requirement so that is why we try to use 16AWG or 14AWG cord sets even if they 
cannot be used outside of North America.

In the real world, it is common for the plug to be cut off the power cord and 
replaced with something local. In those cases, we want to be sure the cordage 
is large enough to meet any local electrical codes.

The Other Brian

From: John Allen [mailto:john_e_al...@blueyonder.co.uk]
Sent: Tuesday, May 05, 2015 2:09 PM
To: Kunde, Brian
Cc: EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG
Subject: RE: [PSES] Wire Questions

Brian

Grounding Conductor size

An interesting question with respect to internal grounding conductors, and one 
which made me refer to a very old copy of CSA Technical Note TN-017 "Bonding 
and Grounding of Electrical Equipment (Protective Grounding)", dated January 
13, 1993, which I have - don't know if there is a newer version, but I suspect 
there is (if so, does anyone have a copy of this or of whatever has replaced 
it?) so the following comments may well be out-of-date!

TN-017 refers to CSA C22.0.4, which I don't think I have, as the basic 
requirements for grounding of equipment, so obviously not sure what that 
currently states.

However:

Page 2 of TN-017, under "Grounded (Class I) Equipment" states that
"IEC standards require the ground path impedance to be less than or equal to 
0.1 ohm. Although it is a satisfactory criteria for evaluating a path to ground 
where overcurrent protection is rated or set at 15A and 20A, this approach 
fails to provide proper protection when overcurrent devices are rated or set at 
30A or higher"

Page 6, Under "National Electric Code (NEC)" states:
"Article 250 of NEC defines grounding and bonding requirements for 
installations of electrical equipment in the United States. Articles250-60, 
250-95 and 250-155 also define min size of ground conductor required. Also see 
Articles 250-42, 250-45, 250-59, 250-113 and 250-114.

NEC requires the following in particular.


(a)   Ground conductor must not be smaller than specified in Table 250-95 with 
the exceptions that the ground conductor:

i.  Must not be smaller than 18A AWG copper and not smaller than 
circuit conductors.

ii. Need not be larger than the AC circuit conductors.

This means that the min cord size permitted is No 18 AWG, and min size of 
ground conductor shall be No 18 AWG.


(b)   Ground conductor may be without insulation but if insulation is provided, 
it shall be coloured green or green with one or more yellow stripes.

(c)All non-current carrying metal parts of fixed, portable and mobile 
equipment shall be grounded. Grounding conductors not part of cable assembly 
must not be smaller that No 6 AWG."

NB: w.r.t. (c) above, there are exceptions elsewhere for double-insulated 
(etc.) equipment!

Can't find any definitive statement in TN-017 as to the required internal 
grounding conductor sizes, but, from the above, it seems to me that the issue 
you mention relates to a combination of the following:

-   The IEC continuity test at 25A is only adequate at supply currents 
which would be protected by a 15A/20A external breaker, which is probably why 
61010-1 states different - see below;

-   the potential AWG size of the external supply cord - and that the 
grounding conductor needs to be > the size of the current-carrying conductors;

-   the current rating of the protection in the installation - and if the 
latter is >15A/20A, then the internal conductor would have to be larger than 
18AWG.

Since you were using a 16AWG power cord in some cases, then that would mean the 
internal conductors would need to be >16AWG, but if you were sometimes using 
14AWG cords - which you comment implies - then you would need 14AWG internal 
grounding conductors.

OTOH, some more modern standards like 61010-1 Ed 3 state:

6.5.2.4 Impedance of PROTECTIVE BONDING of plug-connected equipment

.Conformity  is  checked  by  applying  a  test  current  for  1  min  and  
then  calculating  impedance. The test current is the greater of

a)  25 A a.c. r.m.s.at RATED  MAINS  frequency or d.c.,
b)  a current equal to twice the RATED  current of the equipment.

If the equipment contains overcurrent protection devices for all poles of the 
MAINS  supply, and
if   the   wiring   on   the   supply   side   of   the   overcurrent   
protecti

Re: [PSES] Wire Questions

2015-05-05 Thread John Allen 
Brian


Thanks 

Grounding Conductors - what you have identified in C22.2 No 0.4 seems to 
largely confirm and expand on what I surmised from TN-017 and the related 
references.

Regards

John Allen
W.London, UK

-Original Message-
From: Brian Oconnell [mailto:oconne...@tamuracorp.com] 
Sent: 05 May 2015 19:40
To: EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG
Subject: Re: [PSES] Wire Questions

CSA-C22.2 No 0.4 (Bonding of Electrical Equipment) has this

3.4.3.2
The fault capacity of a bond shall be adequate if the bond complies with one of 
the following
requirements:
(a) the bond is made from a suitably terminated conductor not smaller than the 
specified minimum size of bonding conductors in Table 16 of Part I of the CEC;
Note: When equipment contains two or more motors connected to a circuit in the 
equipment that does not have overcurrent protection, the bonding conductor size 
is selected by assuming that the branch circuit protection is equal to three 
times the full load current of the largest motor plus the current required by 
the other loads.
(b) in cord-connected equipment, the bond is made from a suitably terminated 
conductor not smaller than the bonding conductor in the supply cord;
(c) the bond is made from a copper conductor not smaller than the applicable 
minimum size specified in Table 1 and meets the test requirements specified in 
Clause 4.1;
(d) the bond is made from a conductor smaller than that required in Item (b) or 
(c), or smaller than required in Item (a) for overcurrent protection rated 40 A 
or more, and meets the test requirements specified in Clauses 4.1 and 4.3; or
(e) the bond is made from a conductive element, other than a conductive element 
specified in Items (a) to (d), that meets the test requirements specified in 
Clauses 4.1 and 4.3

And table 1 indicates:

Rating of branch circuitMinimum bonding 
conductor size, AWG
required for equipment, A
15  20
20  18
30  14

Note that the 20gauge wire contradicts some stuff in NEC article 250(NFPA70), 
and CEC Part II (CSA C22.2 No 0-M9).

Brian

From: John Allen [mailto:john_e_al...@blueyonder.co.uk]
Sent: Tuesday, May 05, 2015 11:09 AM
To: EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG
Subject: Re: [PSES] Wire Questions

Brian

Grounding Conductor size

An interesting question with respect to internal grounding conductors, and one 
which made me refer to a very old copy of CSA Technical Note TN-017 “Bonding 
and Grounding of Electrical Equipment (Protective Grounding)”, dated January 
13, 1993, which I have – don’t know if there is a newer version, but I suspect 
there is (if so, does anyone have a copy of this or of whatever has replaced 
it?) so the following comments may well be out-of-date!

TN-017 refers to CSA C22.0.4, which I don’t think I have, as the basic 
requirements for grounding of equipment, so obviously not sure what that 
currently states.

However: 

Page 2 of TN-017, under “Grounded (Class I) Equipment” states that “IEC 
standards require the ground path impedance to be less than or equal to 0.1 
ohm. Although it is a satisfactory criteria for evaluating a path to ground 
where overcurrent protection is rated or set at 15A and 20A, this approach 
fails to provide proper protection when overcurrent devices are rated or set at 
30A or higher”

Page 6, Under “National Electric Code (NEC)” states:
“Article 250 of NEC defines grounding and bonding requirements for 
installations of electrical equipment in the United States. Articles250-60, 
250-95 and 250-155 also define min size of ground conductor required. Also see 
Articles 250-42, 250-45, 250-59, 250-113 and 250-114.

NEC requires the following in particular.

(a) Ground conductor must not be smaller than specified in Table 250-95 with 
the exceptions that the ground conductor:
i. Must not be smaller than 18A AWG copper and not smaller than circuit 
conductors.
ii. Need not be larger than the AC circuit conductors.

This means that the min cord size permitted is No 18 AWG, and min size of 
ground conductor shall be No 18 AWG.

(b) Ground conductor may be without insulation but if insulation is provided, 
it shall be coloured green or green with one or more yellow stripes.
(c) All non-current carrying metal parts of fixed, portable and mobile 
equipment shall be grounded. Grounding conductors not part of cable assembly 
must not be smaller that No 6 AWG.”

NB: w.r.t. (c) above, there are exceptions elsewhere for double-insulated 
(etc.) equipment!

Can’t find any definitive statement in TN-017 as to the required internal 
grounding conductor sizes, but, from the above, it seems to me that the issue 
you mention relates to a combination of the following:
- The IEC continuity test at 25A is only adequate at supply currents which 
would be protected by a 15A/20A external breaker, which is probably

Re: [PSES] Wire Questions

2015-05-05 Thread Brian Oconnell 
CSA-C22.2 No 0.4 (Bonding of Electrical Equipment) has this

3.4.3.2
The fault capacity of a bond shall be adequate if the bond complies with one of 
the following
requirements:
(a) the bond is made from a suitably terminated conductor not smaller than the 
specified minimum size
of bonding conductors in Table 16 of Part I of the CEC;
Note: When equipment contains two or more motors connected to a circuit in the 
equipment that does not have
overcurrent protection, the bonding conductor size is selected by assuming that 
the branch circuit protection is equal to
three times the full load current of the largest motor plus the current 
required by the other loads.
(b) in cord-connected equipment, the bond is made from a suitably terminated 
conductor not smaller
than the bonding conductor in the supply cord;
(c) the bond is made from a copper conductor not smaller than the applicable 
minimum size specified in
Table 1 and meets the test requirements specified in Clause 4.1;
(d) the bond is made from a conductor smaller than that required in Item (b) or 
(c), or smaller than
required in Item (a) for overcurrent protection rated 40 A or more, and meets 
the test requirements
specified in Clauses 4.1 and 4.3; or
(e) the bond is made from a conductive element, other than a conductive element 
specified in
Items (a) to (d), that meets the test requirements specified in Clauses 4.1 and 
4.3

And table 1 indicates:

Rating of branch circuitMinimum bonding 
conductor size, AWG
required for equipment, A
15  20
20  18
30  14

Note that the 20gauge wire contradicts some stuff in NEC article 250(NFPA70), 
and CEC Part II (CSA C22.2 No 0-M9).

Brian

From: John Allen [mailto:john_e_al...@blueyonder.co.uk] 
Sent: Tuesday, May 05, 2015 11:09 AM
To: EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG
Subject: Re: [PSES] Wire Questions

Brian

Grounding Conductor size

An interesting question with respect to internal grounding conductors, and one 
which made me refer to a very old copy of CSA Technical Note TN-017 “Bonding 
and Grounding of Electrical Equipment (Protective Grounding)”, dated January 
13, 1993, which I have – don’t know if there is a newer version, but I suspect 
there is (if so, does anyone have a copy of this or of whatever has replaced 
it?) so the following comments may well be out-of-date!

TN-017 refers to CSA C22.0.4, which I don’t think I have, as the basic 
requirements for grounding of equipment, so obviously not sure what that 
currently states.

However: 

Page 2 of TN-017, under “Grounded (Class I) Equipment” states that 
“IEC standards require the ground path impedance to be less than or equal to 
0.1 ohm. Although it is a satisfactory criteria for evaluating a path to ground 
where overcurrent protection is rated or set at 15A and 20A, this approach 
fails to provide proper protection when overcurrent devices are rated or set at 
30A or higher”

Page 6, Under “National Electric Code (NEC)” states:
“Article 250 of NEC defines grounding and bonding requirements for 
installations of electrical equipment in the United States. Articles250-60, 
250-95 and 250-155 also define min size of ground conductor required. Also see 
Articles 250-42, 250-45, 250-59, 250-113 and 250-114.

NEC requires the following in particular.

(a) Ground conductor must not be smaller than specified in Table 250-95 with 
the exceptions that the ground conductor:
i. Must not be smaller than 18A AWG copper and not smaller than circuit 
conductors.
ii. Need not be larger than the AC circuit conductors.

This means that the min cord size permitted is No 18 AWG, and min size of 
ground conductor shall be No 18 AWG.

(b) Ground conductor may be without insulation but if insulation is provided, 
it shall be coloured green or green with one or more yellow stripes.
(c) All non-current carrying metal parts of fixed, portable and mobile 
equipment shall be grounded. Grounding conductors not part of cable assembly 
must not be smaller that No 6 AWG.”

NB: w.r.t. (c) above, there are exceptions elsewhere for double-insulated 
(etc.) equipment!

Can’t find any definitive statement in TN-017 as to the required internal 
grounding conductor sizes, but, from the above, it seems to me that the issue 
you mention relates to a combination of the following:
- The IEC continuity test at 25A is only adequate at supply currents which 
would be protected by a 15A/20A external breaker, which is probably why 61010-1 
states different – see below;
- the potential AWG size of the external supply cord – and that the grounding 
conductor needs to be > the size of the current-carrying conductors; 
- the current rating of the protection in the installation – and if the latter 
is >15A/20A, then the internal conductor would have to be larger than 18AWG.

Since you were using a 16AWG powe

Re: [PSES] Wire Questions

2015-05-05 Thread John Allen 
 the equipment was being submitted to a European test house
for certification (or to some other company to incorporate in their own
equipment), then it's probably doubtful if the use of US/CSA-certified mains
supply cords would be picked up by most of the end-user community. As long
as the plug was the correct one, and the conductor insulation colours were
also correct if an unterminated power cord was supplied, for those countries
then most of those people would probably not look much further! Not to say
that this is "right"/ "legal", but taking a "pragmatic" view of the actual
situation in most countries. J

 

Therefore, in the circumstances, it may well be better (as you appear to do)
to leave the supply of appropriate power cords to the European installers!

 

John Allen

W.London, UK

 

From: Kunde, Brian [mailto:brian_ku...@lecotc.com] 
Sent: 05 May 2015 16:37
To: EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG
Subject: Re: [PSES] Wire Questions

 

Rick,

 

Are you talking strictly about power cordage or internal hookup wire? 

 

We had a CSA inspector reject one of our products because the internal PE
Conductor (hookup wire) was a smaller gauge (18awg) than what was on the
power cord (16awg). He said in Canada, the PE Conductor inside our product
had to be the same gauge or larger than the PE conductor in the power cord
regardless of the protection device or the current rating of the wire. In
our case, we were using a 16 awg detachable power cord with an IEC 60320
connector. Inside our instrument, from the IEC connector to our chassis
ground we used an 18 awg green/yellow hookup wire which can handle way more
fault current than the 16 awg power cord. So as a general rule, we always
use 14 awg hookup wire on IEC connectors just to be on the safe size; As
such power cords can come in 18, 16, and 14 awg sizes.

 

Our power cords for North America always have UL and CSA, but no CE or
"harmonized" (at least it is not required to have this). When products are
shipped to Europe I understood that UL/CSA cordage was acceptable (you still
have to change the plug) as long as the conductor size met the requirements.
That is why we don't use 18 awg power cords anymore.  I really don't know
the details because this is handled by our installers during the customer
installation.

 

Hope this was helpful.

The Other Brian

 

From: Rick Busche [mailto:rick.bus...@qnergy.com] 
Sent: Tuesday, May 05, 2015 10:08 AM
To: EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG
Subject: [PSES] Wire Questions

 

We manufacture a product that is intended for both the US and Canadian
markets in addition to the European community. Our wiring is currently
UL/CSA and "harmonized".  Looking at the various wire vendors there are
UL/CSA & CE certifications and certifications  that are UL/CSA, CE and
Harmonized. Is it acceptable to have  wiring with just UL/CSA and CE? 

 

Also, I remember years ago a document or standard that stated that a
grounding wire could be smaller than the load wires. The argument was that
it doesn't have to support the load but just fault  the input current.  Does
this sound familiar to anyone?

 

Thanks

 

Rick

 

 

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Re: [PSES] Wire Questions

2015-05-05 Thread Kunde, Brian 
Rick,

Are you talking strictly about power cordage or internal hookup wire?

We had a CSA inspector reject one of our products because the internal PE 
Conductor (hookup wire) was a smaller gauge (18awg) than what was on the power 
cord (16awg). He said in Canada, the PE Conductor inside our product had to be 
the same gauge or larger than the PE conductor in the power cord regardless of 
the protection device or the current rating of the wire. In our case, we were 
using a 16 awg detachable power cord with an IEC 60320 connector. Inside our 
instrument, from the IEC connector to our chassis ground we used an 18 awg 
green/yellow hookup wire which can handle way more fault current than the 16 
awg power cord. So as a general rule, we always use 14 awg hookup wire on IEC 
connectors just to be on the safe size; As such power cords can come in 18, 16, 
and 14 awg sizes.

Our power cords for North America always have UL and CSA, but no CE or 
"harmonized" (at least it is not required to have this). When products are 
shipped to Europe I understood that UL/CSA cordage was acceptable (you still 
have to change the plug) as long as the conductor size met the requirements. 
That is why we don't use 18 awg power cords anymore.  I really don't know the 
details because this is handled by our installers during the customer 
installation.

Hope this was helpful.
The Other Brian

From: Rick Busche [mailto:rick.bus...@qnergy.com]
Sent: Tuesday, May 05, 2015 10:08 AM
To: EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG
Subject: [PSES] Wire Questions

We manufacture a product that is intended for both the US and Canadian markets 
in addition to the European community. Our wiring is currently UL/CSA and 
"harmonized".  Looking at the various wire vendors there are UL/CSA & CE 
certifications and certifications  that are UL/CSA, CE and Harmonized. Is it 
acceptable to have  wiring with just UL/CSA and CE?

Also, I remember years ago a document or standard that stated that a grounding 
wire could be smaller than the load wires. The argument was that it doesn't 
have to support the load but just fault  the input current.  Does this sound 
familiar to anyone?

Thanks

Rick


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Re: [PSES] Wire Questions

2015-05-05 Thread John Woodgate 
In message 

>, dated Tue, 5 May 2015, Rick Busche  writes:

We manufacture a product that is intended for both the US and Canadian 
markets in addition to the European community. Our wiring is currently 
UL/CSA and ?harmonized?.  Looking at the various wire vendors there are 
UL/CSA & CE certifications and certifications  that are UL/CSA, CE and 
Harmonized. Is it acceptable to have  wiring with just UL/CSA and CE?


I don't see how something can be CE yet not harmonized, with perhaps 
exceptions for wire sizes used in only one or two European countries.

 

Also, I remember years ago a document or standard that stated that a 
grounding wire could be smaller than the load wires. The argument was 
that it doesn?t have to support the load but just fault  the input 
current.  Does this sound familiar to anyone?


 
Present thinking is more or less opposite. The grounding wire must be of 
low enough resistance to carry the supply's short-circuit current for 
long enough to clear the protection device and not cause an unacceptable 
rise in voltage on accessible parts. So for a low-power product, the 
grounding wire might need to be much thicker than the load wires.

--
OOO - Own Opinions Only. With best wishes. See www.jmwa.demon.co.uk
When I turn my back on the sun, it's to look for a rainbow
John Woodgate, J M Woodgate and Associates, Rayleigh, Essex UK

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