Re: dmax test
Dear All But it must be understood for equipment that is intended to be left on all the time, the fact that you have switch on transients is not relevant.. So if the argument is, well what happens in a power cut ? 1. This is not an EMC problem, hence can not be controlled by the EMC directive. After all it is electromagnetic compatibility - not electrical compatibility. 2. These incidents happen very infrequently, so to burden industry which such a requirement is too one sided, what ever happened to shared responsibility ? 3. This is regulation/control of the power network not 89/336... So this test under these circumstances this test has little relevance Regards JJ EMiSoft, Test + Assessment Software Solutions Email mailto: mailto:j...@emisoft.co.uk j @emisoft.co.uk mailto:j...@emisoft.co.uk EMC Search Engine EMiLinks find books ___
Re: dmax test
I read in !emc-pstc that ssel...@yorkemc.co.uk wrote (in e18ohm0-000bwv...@anchor-post-31.mail.demon.net) about 'dmax test' on Fri, 28 Feb 2003: I agree that switch-on is the most likely culprit in a EMC sense, and that the cooling of mitigation devices (thermistors etc) is important. I was merely pointing out that the standard specifically states: switch off the EUT before the end of the 1 min measuring time intervalI suppose its conceivable that voltage changes could occur, it depends what a particular EUT actually does when you click the switch. A voltage change obviously occurs when the load is removed from the supply. My point is that this change has no element of the nature of inrush. Some might think that there is a 'outrush'! Maybe contact bounce comes into it? Contact bounce and making and breaking speeds differ between switches, which is why you must use the equipment's OWN switch to switch on and off. When developing the test, we tried to use a solid-state relay driven by a phase-detector that would switch at 0, 90, 180 and 270 degrees relative to a positive-going zero-crossing of the supply voltage, because that would require just four measurements to get a meaningful result. But we found that the equipment's own switch gave different results (a 20% lower average inrush current in the relevant experiments). -- Regards, John Woodgate, OOO - Own Opinions Only. http://www.jmwa.demon.co.uk Interested in professional sound reinforcement and distribution? Then go to http://www.isce.org.uk PLEASE do NOT copy news posts to me by E-MAIL! This message is from the IEEE EMC Society Product Safety Technical Committee emc-pstc discussion list. Visit our web site at: http://www.ewh.ieee.org/soc/emcs/pstc/ To cancel your subscription, send mail to: majord...@ieee.org with the single line: unsubscribe emc-pstc For help, send mail to the list administrators: Ron Pickard: emc-p...@hypercom.com Dave Heald: davehe...@attbi.com For policy questions, send mail to: Richard Nute: ri...@ieee.org Jim Bacher: j.bac...@ieee.org Archive is being moved, we will announce when it is back on-line. All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at: http://www.ieeecommunities.org/emc-pstc
Re: dmax test
I agree that switch-on is the most likely culprit in a EMC sense, and that the cooling of mitigation devices (thermistors etc) is important. I was merely pointing out that the standard specifically states: switch off the EUT before the end of the 1 min measuring time intervalI suppose its conceivable that voltage changes could occur, it depends what a particular EUT actually does when you click the switch. Maybe contact bounce comes into it? Steve Seller York EMC Services On 27 Feb 03, at 19:32, John Woodgate wrote: It's a good idea to understand what the test is intended to achieve. In this case, it's the **switch-on** that matters. There are no EMC implications in the sense of IEC/EN 61000-3-3 of the switch-off. If the EUT has, for example, an NTC thermistor to limit inrush current, It is not only permitted, but intended, to allow it to cool down between switch-on events. DISCLAIMER NOTICE http://www.yorkemc.co.uk/Disclaimer York EMC Services, Market Square, The University of York, Heslington, York, YO10 5DD. VAT Reg No: GB 647 2055 41 Company Reg No: 3075474 York EMC Services Ltd is a Company limited by guarantee and not having share capital. This message is from the IEEE EMC Society Product Safety Technical Committee emc-pstc discussion list. Visit our web site at: http://www.ewh.ieee.org/soc/emcs/pstc/ To cancel your subscription, send mail to: majord...@ieee.org with the single line: unsubscribe emc-pstc For help, send mail to the list administrators: Ron Pickard: emc-p...@hypercom.com Dave Heald: davehe...@attbi.com For policy questions, send mail to: Richard Nute: ri...@ieee.org Jim Bacher: j.bac...@ieee.org Archive is being moved, we will announce when it is back on-line. All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at: http://www.ieeecommunities.org/emc-pstc
Re: dmax test
Annex B of EN61000-3-3 says that both the switch on and switch off events should occur during each of the 1 minute tests. Steve Seller York EMC Services On 25 Feb 03, at 9:26, djumbdenst...@tycoint.com wrote: We have a HP HFTS (harmonic and flicker test system) 6843A that runs the original flicker tests. Now 61000-3-3 requires a measurement of dmax 24 times, taking the average of 22 readings. We have come up with a way to do that manually using the HFTS. I would like to present it to the group and see if anyone sees an oversight or a better way of doing it. I suspect the program is the same whether you have the 1kva model or the 5kva model 6843A. a) Create an Excel template to record 24 points of data. Create a formula that sums the 24 values, subtracts the max and min, and divides the result by 22. This value is the average dmax required by the amendment. b) Set up the HFTS as follows: Integration Periods:1 PST Int Time: 1 minute Measurement Delay: 0 seconds. c) Start the HFTS Voltage Fluctuation test with the EUT off. d) After several seconds, manually turn on the EUT. e) At the conclusion of the 1 minute test, record the dmax value reported by the HFTS on the excel worksheet. f) Turn off the EUT g) Repeat steps c) to f) 24 times. h) Compare the dmax value reported on the work sheet to the appropriate limit in 61000-3-3, Amendment 1, 2001. This approach requires manual intervention and takes approximately 1/2 hour. It appears to address the requirement of the amendment without requiring modification to the unsupported test equipment. Comments? Don Umbdenstock Sensormatic DISCLAIMER NOTICE http://www.yorkemc.co.uk/Disclaimer York EMC Services, Market Square, The University of York, Heslington, York, YO10 5DD. VAT Reg No: GB 647 2055 41 Company Reg No: 3075474 York EMC Services Ltd is a Company limited by guarantee and not having share capital. This message is from the IEEE EMC Society Product Safety Technical Committee emc-pstc discussion list. Visit our web site at: http://www.ewh.ieee.org/soc/emcs/pstc/ To cancel your subscription, send mail to: majord...@ieee.org with the single line: unsubscribe emc-pstc For help, send mail to the list administrators: Ron Pickard: emc-p...@hypercom.com Dave Heald: davehe...@attbi.com For policy questions, send mail to: Richard Nute: ri...@ieee.org Jim Bacher: j.bac...@ieee.org Archive is being moved, we will announce when it is back on-line. All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at: http://www.ieeecommunities.org/emc-pstc This message is from the IEEE EMC Society Product Safety Technical Committee emc-pstc discussion list. Visit our web site at: http://www.ewh.ieee.org/soc/emcs/pstc/ To cancel your subscription, send mail to: majord...@ieee.org with the single line: unsubscribe emc-pstc For help, send mail to the list administrators: Ron Pickard: emc-p...@hypercom.com Dave Heald: davehe...@attbi.com For policy questions, send mail to: Richard Nute: ri...@ieee.org Jim Bacher: j.bac...@ieee.org Archive is being moved, we will announce when it is back on-line. All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at: http://www.ieeecommunities.org/emc-pstc
RE: dmax test
Good point, Steve. Minor adjustment in the procedure takes care of it. Thanks for the comment. Regards, Don Umbdenstock Sensormatic -- From: ssel...@yorkemc.co.uk[SMTP:ssel...@yorkemc.co.uk] Reply To: ssel...@yorkemc.co.uk Sent: Thursday, February 27, 2003 12:48 PM To: emc-p...@majordomo.ieee.org Subject: Re: dmax test Annex B of EN61000-3-3 says that both the switch on and switch off events should occur during each of the 1 minute tests. Steve Seller York EMC Services On 25 Feb 03, at 9:26, djumbdenst...@tycoint.com wrote: We have a HP HFTS (harmonic and flicker test system) 6843A that runs the original flicker tests. Now 61000-3-3 requires a measurement of dmax 24 times, taking the average of 22 readings. We have come up with a way to do that manually using the HFTS. I would like to present it to the group and see if anyone sees an oversight or a better way of doing it. I suspect the program is the same whether you have the 1kva model or the 5kva model 6843A. a) Create an Excel template to record 24 points of data. Create a formula that sums the 24 values, subtracts the max and min, and divides the result by 22. This value is the average dmax required by the amendment. b) Set up the HFTS as follows: Integration Periods:1 PST Int Time: 1 minute Measurement Delay: 0 seconds. c) Start the HFTS Voltage Fluctuation test with the EUT off. d) After several seconds, manually turn on the EUT. e) At the conclusion of the 1 minute test, record the dmax value reported by the HFTS on the excel worksheet. f) Turn off the EUT g) Repeat steps c) to f) 24 times. h) Compare the dmax value reported on the work sheet to the appropriate limit in 61000-3-3, Amendment 1, 2001. This approach requires manual intervention and takes approximately 1/2 hour. It appears to address the requirement of the amendment without requiring modification to the unsupported test equipment. Comments? Don Umbdenstock Sensormatic DISCLAIMER NOTICE http://www.yorkemc.co.uk/Disclaimer York EMC Services, Market Square, The University of York, Heslington, York, YO10 5DD. VAT Reg No: GB 647 2055 41 Company Reg No: 3075474 York EMC Services Ltd is a Company limited by guarantee and not having share capital. --- This message is from the IEEE EMC Society Product Safety Technical Committee emc-pstc discussion list. Visit our web site at: http://www.ewh.ieee.org/soc/emcs/pstc/ To cancel your subscription, send mail to: majord...@ieee.org with the single line: unsubscribe emc-pstc For help, send mail to the list administrators: Ron Pickard: emc-p...@hypercom.com Dave Heald: davehe...@attbi.com For policy questions, send mail to: Richard Nute: ri...@ieee.org Jim Bacher: j.bac...@ieee.org Archive is being moved, we will announce when it is back on-line. All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at: http://www.ieeecommunities.org/emc-pstc This message is from the IEEE EMC Society Product Safety Technical Committee emc-pstc discussion list. Visit our web site at: http://www.ewh.ieee.org/soc/emcs/pstc/ To cancel your subscription, send mail to: majord...@ieee.org with the single line: unsubscribe emc-pstc For help, send mail to the list administrators: Ron Pickard: emc-p...@hypercom.com Dave Heald: davehe...@attbi.com For policy questions, send mail to: Richard Nute: ri...@ieee.org Jim Bacher: j.bac...@ieee.org Archive is being moved, we will announce when it is back on-line. All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at: http://www.ieeecommunities.org/emc-pstc This message is from the IEEE EMC Society Product Safety Technical Committee emc-pstc discussion list. Visit our web site at: http://www.ewh.ieee.org/soc/emcs/pstc/ To cancel your subscription, send mail to: majord...@ieee.org with the single line: unsubscribe emc-pstc For help, send mail to the list administrators: Ron Pickard: emc-p...@hypercom.com Dave Heald: davehe...@attbi.com For policy questions, send mail to: Richard Nute: ri...@ieee.org Jim Bacher: j.bac...@ieee.org Archive is being moved, we will announce when it is back on-line. All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at: http://www.ieeecommunities.org/emc-pstc
Re: dmax test
I read in !emc-pstc that ssel...@yorkemc.co.uk wrote (in E18oS6s- 000baf...@anchor-post-31.mail.demon.net) about 'dmax test' on Thu, 27 Feb 2003: Annex B of EN61000-3-3 says that both the switch on and switch off events should occur during each of the 1 minute tests. It's a good idea to understand what the test is intended to achieve. In this case, it's the **switch-on** that matters. There are no EMC implications in the sense of IEC/EN 61000-3-3 of the switch-off. If the EUT has, for example, an NTC thermistor to limit inrush current, It is not only permitted, but intended, to allow it to cool down between switch-on events. -- Regards, John Woodgate, OOO - Own Opinions Only. http://www.jmwa.demon.co.uk Interested in professional sound reinforcement and distribution? Then go to http://www.isce.org.uk PLEASE do NOT copy news posts to me by E-MAIL! This message is from the IEEE EMC Society Product Safety Technical Committee emc-pstc discussion list. Visit our web site at: http://www.ewh.ieee.org/soc/emcs/pstc/ To cancel your subscription, send mail to: majord...@ieee.org with the single line: unsubscribe emc-pstc For help, send mail to the list administrators: Ron Pickard: emc-p...@hypercom.com Dave Heald: davehe...@attbi.com For policy questions, send mail to: Richard Nute: ri...@ieee.org Jim Bacher: j.bac...@ieee.org Archive is being moved, we will announce when it is back on-line. All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at: http://www.ieeecommunities.org/emc-pstc This message is from the IEEE EMC Society Product Safety Technical Committee emc-pstc discussion list. Visit our web site at: http://www.ewh.ieee.org/soc/emcs/pstc/ To cancel your subscription, send mail to: majord...@ieee.org with the single line: unsubscribe emc-pstc For help, send mail to the list administrators: Ron Pickard: emc-p...@hypercom.com Dave Heald: davehe...@attbi.com For policy questions, send mail to: Richard Nute: ri...@ieee.org Jim Bacher: j.bac...@ieee.org Archive is being moved, we will announce when it is back on-line. All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at: http://www.ieeecommunities.org/emc-pstc
Re: dmax test
I read in !emc-pstc that John Woodgate j...@jmwa.demon.co.uk wrote (in yjwjuocwx7w+e...@jmwa.demon.co.uk) about 'dmax test' on Tue, 25 Feb 2003: I will forward you message to someone who is in a VERY good position to advise, but whose name I may not reveal. Watch this space. Well, I did that and he says you are OK with what you are doing. If he says so, it almost certainly IS so. -- Regards, John Woodgate, OOO - Own Opinions Only. http://www.jmwa.demon.co.uk Interested in professional sound reinforcement and distribution? Then go to http://www.isce.org.uk PLEASE do NOT copy news posts to me by E-MAIL! This message is from the IEEE EMC Society Product Safety Technical Committee emc-pstc discussion list. Visit our web site at: http://www.ewh.ieee.org/soc/emcs/pstc/ To cancel your subscription, send mail to: majord...@ieee.org with the single line: unsubscribe emc-pstc For help, send mail to the list administrators: Ron Pickard: emc-p...@hypercom.com Dave Heald: davehe...@attbi.com For policy questions, send mail to: Richard Nute: ri...@ieee.org Jim Bacher: j.bac...@ieee.org Archive is being moved, we will announce when it is back on-line. All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at: http://www.ieeecommunities.org/emc-pstc
Re: dmax test
I read in !emc-pstc that djumbdenst...@tycoint.com wrote (in 846BF526A2 05F84BA2B6045BBF7E9A6A0532B31F@flbocexu05) about 'dmax test' on Tue, 25 Feb 2003: We have a HP HFTS (harmonic and flicker test system) 6843A that runs the original flicker tests. Now 61000-3-3 requires a measurement of dmax 24 times, taking the average of 22 readings. We have come up with a way to do that manually using the HFTS. I would like to present it to the group and see if anyone sees an oversight or a better way of doing it. I suspect the program is the same whether you have the 1kva model or the 5kva model 6843A. a) Create an Excel template to record 24 points of data. Create a formula that sums the 24 values, subtracts the max and min, and divides the result by 22. This value is the average dmax required by the amendment. b) Set up the HFTS as follows: Integration Periods:1 PST Int Time: 1 minute Measurement Delay: 0 seconds. c) Start the HFTS Voltage Fluctuation test with the EUT off. d) After several seconds, manually turn on the EUT. e) At the conclusion of the 1 minute test, record the dmax value reported by the HFTS on the excel worksheet. f) Turn off the EUT g) Repeat steps c) to f) 24 times. h) Compare the dmax value reported on the work sheet to the appropriate limit in 61000-3-3, Amendment 1, 2001. This approach requires manual intervention and takes approximately 1/2 hour. It appears to address the requirement of the amendment without requiring modification to the unsupported test equipment. Comments? I will forward you message to someone who is in a VERY good position to advise, but whose name I may not reveal. Watch this space. -- Regards, John Woodgate, OOO - Own Opinions Only. http://www.jmwa.demon.co.uk Interested in professional sound reinforcement and distribution? Then go to http://www.isce.org.uk PLEASE do NOT copy news posts to me by E-MAIL! This message is from the IEEE EMC Society Product Safety Technical Committee emc-pstc discussion list. Visit our web site at: http://www.ewh.ieee.org/soc/emcs/pstc/ To cancel your subscription, send mail to: majord...@ieee.org with the single line: unsubscribe emc-pstc For help, send mail to the list administrators: Ron Pickard: emc-p...@hypercom.com Dave Heald: davehe...@attbi.com For policy questions, send mail to: Richard Nute: ri...@ieee.org Jim Bacher: j.bac...@ieee.org Archive is being moved, we will announce when it is back on-line. All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at: http://www.ieeecommunities.org/emc-pstc
