Re: [Emc-users] multiple instances of emc?

[jros]

Hello :),

I think that we need an entry related to this in the wiki.

I would do it myself but I lack a full understanding of the subject.

Your comments looks to me as a very plausible explanation of the HOWs
and WHYs.

I looked into this (google) a few weeks ago, as the subject came to the
list, apart of the isolcpus issue, I came across a comment
telling that command taskset could be used to instruct emc which cpu to
execute at

If 

isolcpus=highestcpunumber

then

taskset highestcpunumber emc ~/emc2/configs/my_conf_dir/my_conf.ini

After reading your comment I'm thinking that this last command is not
really going to help emc. I think that this comamnd will only have
effect -at best- on the userspace components of emc, but not on the real
time components.

I think it can be advantageous to have userspace component get assigned
a cpu by the kernel, different that the isolated one (if we are using
isolcpus), so we keep only the realtime part in a single cpu.

I doubt taskset can have any influence at all on the realtime hal
components.

What do you think?.

If the gurus agree on the explanation I can volunteer to write a entry
on the wiki.

Cheers,

Javier


> 
> I haven't looked at the code recently, but I believe that the RTAPI code
> binds to the highest numbered CPU.
> 
> The isolcpus parameter used to be a mask, but now it's a list (there are
> things called "cpusets" now as well, which are way cool but unused by us).
>  You could isolate cores 1 and 3 with "isolcpus=1,3".
> 
> All that isolcpus does is to tell the Linux scheduler to not schedule any
> process on that CPU/core unless the process specifically requests to be
> put there.
> 
> - Steve
> 



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Re: [Emc-users] multiple instances of emc?

[Steve Blackmore]

On Sat, 02 Apr 2011 12:24:11 +0200, you wrote:


>If the gurus agree on the explanation I can volunteer to write a entry
>on the wiki.

That would be good - please show where isolcpus command
should go with a clear example.

It's been discussed by the linux guru's at length but as yet nobody has
explained to us dummies in plain language how to or where to implement
it :(

Steve Blackmore
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Re: [Emc-users] unexpected realtime delay

[Steve Blackmore]

On Tue, 15 Mar 2011 21:06:59 -0400, you wrote:

>I had this problem on my mill that has a D510 board in it.  I have not had the 
>error pop up since disabling hyper threading in bios and adding isolcpus to 
>the boot file.  FWIW...

Which boot file?

Steve Blackmore
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[Emc-users] Git server down?

[Les Newell]

Is the Git server down? I just tried downloading the latest source and 
got no response. I also don't get a response if I ping git.linuxcnc.org.

Les


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Re: [Emc-users] unexpected realtime delay

[Les Newell]

 From the EMC Wiki:

> Edit */boot/grub/menu.lst* and add *isolcpus* parameter to the end of 
> the kernel line of the RTAI kernel.
> The value of the *isolcpus* parameter will be the number of the last 
> core/CPU. Start to count from #0.
> 1 for dual core/CPU system, 3 for quad core/CPU etc...
>
> This is the kernel line for my dual core machine
> /kernel /vmlinuz-2.6.30.5-rtai root=/dev/sda5 ro *isolcpus=1*/

Les

On 02/04/2011 12:08, Steve Blackmore wrote:
> On Tue, 15 Mar 2011 21:06:59 -0400, you wrote:
>
>> I had this problem on my mill that has a D510 board in it.  I have not had 
>> the error pop up since disabling hyper threading in bios and adding isolcpus 
>> to the boot file.  FWIW...
> Which boot file?
>
> Steve Blackmore
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Re: [Emc-users] multiple instances of emc?

[Stephen Wille Padnos]

Viesturs Lācis wrote:
> 2011/4/1:
>
>> The isolcpus parameter used to be a mask, but now it's a list (there are
>> things called "cpusets" now as well, which are way cool but unused by us).
>>   You could isolate cores 1 and 3 with "isolcpus=1,3".
>>
>> All that isolcpus does is to tell the Linux scheduler to not schedule any
>> process on that CPU/core unless the process specifically requests to be
>> put there.
>>  
> And how does EMC happen to get access to that isolated core?
>
The RTAI/RTAPI layer, which is a shim between EMC/HAL and the underlying 
RTAI realtime system, explicitly asks to run on the highest numbered 
processor.
> According to Your argument, there must be some code, which requests that.
> I did the "isolcpus" tweak and disabled hyperthreading on D525 board,
> but I do not recall changing anything with EMC, so my conclusion is
> that EMC does that by default. Is that correct?
>
Correct. Note that one of the wiki pages that mentions isolcpus says 
that you should set isolcpus=2,3 if you have hyperthreading enabled. If 
you don't, then the physical core that runs the EMC code may also be 
running non-realtime code simultaneously, which probably isn't what you 
want.

- Steve


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Re: [Emc-users] multiple instances of emc?

[Stephen Wille Padnos]

Steve Blackmore wrote:
> That would be good - please show where isolcpus command
> should go with a clear example.
>
> It's been discussed by the linux guru's at length but as yet nobody has
> explained to us dummies in plain language how to or where to implement
> it:(
>
Well, there isn't a step by step guide (open editor, load this file, 
find this line ...), but there are two wiki pages that describe what 
needs to be done, which I found by searching the emc wiki for "isolcpus":
, the section "How 
to improve realtime performance".
, 
Section 7.1 "Modify menu.lst".

You may not be a good enough dummy if those don't help :)

- Steve

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Re: [Emc-users] multiple instances of emc?

[BRIAN GLACKIN]

First off, there are two separate and interesting threads intertwined in
this discussion.  It would be nice to see them split out.

As to running multiple instances of EMC on a single computer (whether
practical or not), from my perspective, is a less desirable situation.

EMC makes machine control available to many users for little cost.  Adding
complexity with multiple instances on a single motherboard may be a neat
science project, but in an industrial environment will add unnecessary
complexity.  This complexity will increase commissioning time as well as
hamper troubleshooting in the case of hardware problems.  Motherboards are
cheap.  If one instance goes haywire - right of the bat, you know what
machine is the culprit.  If you have a multiple instance machine, one of the
cpu's could cause problems and since there is some integration through the
unified motherboard, you could see ghost issues on the other instances
making troubleshooting more difficult and time consuming. In a multi
motherboard scenario, the offending unit will be obvious, slap in a new
board with a mirrored hard drive and your up and running.

I am with Stuart.  This might be a good time to start looking for a Overhead
software process that can manage multiple and independent instances of EMC.
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Re: [Emc-users] unexpected realtime delay

[Steve Blackmore]

On Sat, 02 Apr 2011 12:48:10 +0100, you wrote:

> From the EMC Wiki:
>
>> Edit */boot/grub/menu.lst* and add *isolcpus* parameter to the end of 
>> the kernel line of the RTAI kernel.
>> The value of the *isolcpus* parameter will be the number of the last 
>> core/CPU. Start to count from #0.
>> 1 for dual core/CPU system, 3 for quad core/CPU etc...
>>
>> This is the kernel line for my dual core machine
>> /kernel /vmlinuz-2.6.30.5-rtai root=/dev/sda5 ro *isolcpus=1*/

Hi Les - there is no menu.lst file in my grub directory. I thought I'd
read that grub changed with 10.04?

Steve Blackmore
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Re: [Emc-users] multiple instances of emc?

[Steve Blackmore]

On Sat, 02 Apr 2011 09:17:46 -0400, you wrote:

>Steve Blackmore wrote:
>> That would be good - please show where isolcpus command
>> should go with a clear example.
>>
>> It's been discussed by the linux guru's at length but as yet nobody has
>> explained to us dummies in plain language how to or where to implement
>> it:(
>>
>Well, there isn't a step by step guide (open editor, load this file, 
>find this line ...), but there are two wiki pages that describe what 
>needs to be done, which I found by searching the emc wiki for "isolcpus":
>, the section "How 
>to improve realtime performance".
>, 
>Section 7.1 "Modify menu.lst".
>
>You may not be a good enough dummy if those don't help :)

May be - but how up to date are those pages? September 2008 and  Jan
2009 -  the information isn't valid for 10.04  as there is no
menu.lst

The realtime wiki one says "You do this by adding a kernel boot
parameter to GRUB: "isolcpus=1" 

Really helpful that one - where???

The custom kernel says edit menu.lst - doesn't exist any more

Who's the dummy now? :)

Steve Blackmore
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Re: [Emc-users] Git server down?

[Jon Elson]

Les Newell wrote:
> Is the Git server down? I just tried downloading the latest source and 
> got no response. I also don't get a response if I ping git.linuxcnc.org.
>   
I also get no response.

Jon

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Re: [Emc-users] multiple instances of emc?

[Ed Nisley]

On Sat, 2011-04-02 at 15:33 +0100, Steve Blackmore wrote:
> The custom kernel says edit menu.lst - doesn't exist any more

The Grub2 file is /boot/grub/grub.cfg. It looks different, but gets
basically the same treatment as Grub1's menu.lst.

But it's actually worse than that. The grub.cfg file gets rewritten
every time there's a kernel update; there's a warning at the top of the
file to *not* hand-edit it. You're supposed to futz with the
configuration files in (IIRC) /etc/grub that tell Grub2 how to
automagically create grub.cfg as part of the kernel update.

HOWEVER, I've been unable to figure out how to do something special with
the RTAI-modified kernel: there's no way (that I can find) to *not*
regenerate a standard kernel boot line for the RTAI kernel.

So whenever I hand-edit grub.cfg, I add a note to the RTAI menu entry
showing that it's decorated with isolcpus=1. After every kernel update,
that note vanishes: it's time to edit grub.cfg again.

Maybe there's a way to do that automagically, but ... 

-- 
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http://softsolder.com



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Re: [Emc-users] multiple instances of emc?

[Stephen Wille Padnos]

Ed Nisley wrote:
> On Sat, 2011-04-02 at 15:33 +0100, Steve Blackmore wrote:
>
>> The custom kernel says edit menu.lst - doesn't exist any more
>>  
> The Grub2 file is /boot/grub/grub.cfg. It looks different, but gets
> basically the same treatment as Grub1's menu.lst.
>
> But it's actually worse than that. The grub.cfg file gets rewritten
> every time there's a kernel update; there's a warning at the top of the
> file to *not* hand-edit it. You're supposed to futz with the
> configuration files in (IIRC) /etc/grub that tell Grub2 how to
> automagically create grub.cfg as part of the kernel update.
>
> HOWEVER, I've been unable to figure out how to do something special with
> the RTAI-modified kernel: there's no way (that I can find) to *not*
> regenerate a standard kernel boot line for the RTAI kernel.
>
> So whenever I hand-edit grub.cfg, I add a note to the RTAI menu entry
> showing that it's decorated with isolcpus=1. After every kernel update,
> that note vanishes: it's time to edit grub.cfg again.
>
> Maybe there's a way to do that automagically, but ...
>
A relatively quick google search turns up this page 
, which tells all 
about configuring grub2.

The EMC wiki could have something added that either points to this page 
or excerpts specifics for the simple case.

- Steve

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[Emc-users] Tool Change

[Dave Christman]

Is there a way to do a cut, move the router to the top of the Z axis, 
stop the program, manually change the tool bit, MANUALLY move the Z axis 
to do a touch off, then continue with the program?

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Re: [Emc-users] Git server down?

[Chris Radek]

On Sat, Apr 02, 2011 at 12:44:28PM +0100, Les Newell wrote:
> Is the Git server down? I just tried downloading the latest source and 
> got no response. I also don't get a response if I ping git.linuxcnc.org.
> 

We had a little outage - it has been back for several hours now.
Thanks for letting me know.

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Re: [Emc-users] multiple instances of emc?

[Steve Blackmore]

On Sat, 02 Apr 2011 16:16:14 -0400, you wrote:


>A relatively quick google search turns up this page 
>, which tells all 
>about configuring grub2.
>
>The EMC wiki could have something added that either points to this page 
>or excerpts specifics for the simple case.

Unfortunately - unable to find anything about isolcpus in that thread or
anywhere else that refers to grub2.

Steve Blackmore
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Re: [Emc-users] unexpected realtime delay

[Fred Kehler]

the newer grub is quite different from the older

On my 10.04 I had to edit the /etc/default/grubfile to look like this

#ORIGINAL LINE WAS
>GRUB_CMDLINE_LINUX_DEFAULT="quiet splash"
to
>GRUB_CMDLINE_LINUX_DEFAULT="quiet splash isolcpus=1"

and then run >sudo update-grub

the kernel now boots with the isolcpus=1

hope this helps...



On Sat, Apr 2, 2011 at 7:23 AM, Steve Blackmore  wrote:

> On Sat, 02 Apr 2011 12:48:10 +0100, you wrote:
>
> > From the EMC Wiki:
> >
> >> Edit */boot/grub/menu.lst* and add *isolcpus* parameter to the end of
> >> the kernel line of the RTAI kernel.
> >> The value of the *isolcpus* parameter will be the number of the last
> >> core/CPU. Start to count from #0.
> >> 1 for dual core/CPU system, 3 for quad core/CPU etc...
> >>
> >> This is the kernel line for my dual core machine
> >> /kernel /vmlinuz-2.6.30.5-rtai root=/dev/sda5 ro *isolcpus=1*/
>
> Hi Les - there is no menu.lst file in my grub directory. I thought I'd
> read that grub changed with 10.04?
>
> Steve Blackmore
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>
>
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Re: [Emc-users] multiple instances of emc? - Isolcpus

[Dave]

I did this page a while ago ...

But being a fellow Linux Crash Test Dummy ... I wrote this out so I 
didn't have to remember all of it.

http://wiki.linuxcnc.org/cgi-bin/emcinfo.pl?EMC_Ubuntu91

Line #28

Dave


On 4/2/2011 8:17 AM, Stephen Wille Padnos wrote:
> Steve Blackmore wrote:
>
>> That would be good - please show where isolcpus command
>> should go with a clear example.
>>
>> It's been discussed by the linux guru's at length but as yet nobody has
>> explained to us dummies in plain language how to or where to implement
>> it:(
>>
>>  
> Well, there isn't a step by step guide (open editor, load this file,
> find this line ...), but there are two wiki pages that describe what
> needs to be done, which I found by searching the emc wiki for "isolcpus":
> , the section "How
> to improve realtime performance".
> ,
> Section 7.1 "Modify menu.lst".
>
> You may not be a good enough dummy if those don't help :)
>
> - Steve
>
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Re: [Emc-users] Android powered touch screen tablets

[Dave]

No I didn't send this to the wrong list ..  :-)

I am seeing a lot of  $200-300 Android powered 10 inch touch screen 
tablets popping up now.

Is there any way to use one of these as an EMC2/Linux display terminal 
or as a client to an EMC2 PC ??

Dave



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Re: [Emc-users] Grub2 vs RTAI vs stock kernels

[Ed Nisley]

On Sat, 2011-04-02 at 16:16 -0400, Stephen Wille Padnos wrote:
> which tells all about configuring grub2. 

The catch is that there seems to be no obvious way to do something
different for the RTAI kernel than for the normal kernels. You can
easily decorate *all* the kernels using something like

GRUB_CMDLINE_LINUX isolcpus=1

However, I'm using the same Atom box to run a Thing-O-Matic 3D printer
as well as the Sherline mill (not at the same time). The process that
converts solid models into printable G-Code requires as many CPU cycles
as it can possibly get, so it's highly desirable (nay, verily, vital) to
*not* throw away half the CPU when I'm not using EMC.

So I boot into the RTAI kernel for EMC2 and the stock Ubuntu
kernel-of-the-month for the Thing-O-Matic.

What I need is something that recognizes the RTAI kernel and applies
isolcpus=1 to it. That seems to be beyond Grub2, although I'm sure
somebody with serious Bash-fu could write a script filter...

-- 
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http://softsolder.com



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Re: [Emc-users] Android powered touch screen tablets

[Jon Elson]

Dave wrote:
> No I didn't send this to the wrong list ..  :-)
>
> I am seeing a lot of  $200-300 Android powered 10 inch touch screen 
> tablets popping up now.
>
> Is there any way to use one of these as an EMC2/Linux display terminal 
> or as a client to an EMC2 PC ??
>   
Most likely, these are not Intel X86 architecture CPUs, but many are ARM 
Cortex versions.
So far, there isn't much RTAI support for them, although the guy at RTAI 
is supposedly working on it, but it has been a LONG time.  I provided 
him a Beagle Board at my cost, so I'm not real happy with the situation.

There are some other real time kernel patches out there, but they 
probably do not give as low a latency as RTAI.
(I could be wrong on that.)

But, to run EMC2 directly on the tablet, it needs some kind of I/O 
interface that is accessible.  These things certainly were not made with 
that in mind, but there might be access to something inside that could 
provide such connectivity.

If the tablet computer has an Ethernet, then it certainly could be used 
as a remote display.  But, you can get an Atom motherboard with parallel 
port, memory, SSD and a touch screen for that kind of money (~ $300).
This is known to work, I have one.  The computer is an Intel D510MO 
board, you have to add memory and a SATA disk drive.  The touch screen 
is a "car computer" 4 x 7" screen.  It all runs off 12 V DC.

Jon

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Re: [Emc-users] Android powered touch screen tablets

[Dave]

I don't want to run EMC2 on the tablet, but it sure would be nice if 
there was some way to use these tablets as a client connected to a PC 
running EMC2.

Just comparing apples to apples (sort of) they are now selling 10" 
Android tablets for $200 yet the cheapest  dumb 10" touchscreen at 
MP3car.com is 229.00 and that is a USB connected screen which I am not 
sure would even work with
Linux.A real screen with a 16:9 ratio area and a real VGA input 
starts at $249 and goes up from there.

I suspect that tablets will continue to fall in price but I am not so 
sure about small monitors.

Are there better places to buy small touch screen monitors?

Dave




On 4/2/2011 9:31 PM, Jon Elson wrote:
> Dave wrote:
>
>> No I didn't send this to the wrong list ..  :-)
>>
>> I am seeing a lot of  $200-300 Android powered 10 inch touch screen
>> tablets popping up now.
>>
>> Is there any way to use one of these as an EMC2/Linux display terminal
>> or as a client to an EMC2 PC ??
>>
>>  
> Most likely, these are not Intel X86 architecture CPUs, but many are ARM
> Cortex versions.
> So far, there isn't much RTAI support for them, although the guy at RTAI
> is supposedly working on it, but it has been a LONG time.  I provided
> him a Beagle Board at my cost, so I'm not real happy with the situation.
>
> There are some other real time kernel patches out there, but they
> probably do not give as low a latency as RTAI.
> (I could be wrong on that.)
>
> But, to run EMC2 directly on the tablet, it needs some kind of I/O
> interface that is accessible.  These things certainly were not made with
> that in mind, but there might be access to something inside that could
> provide such connectivity.
>
> If the tablet computer has an Ethernet, then it certainly could be used
> as a remote display.  But, you can get an Atom motherboard with parallel
> port, memory, SSD and a touch screen for that kind of money (~ $300).
> This is known to work, I have one.  The computer is an Intel D510MO
> board, you have to add memory and a SATA disk drive.  The touch screen
> is a "car computer" 4 x 7" screen.  It all runs off 12 V DC.
>
> Jon
>
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