Re: [Emc-users] about to give up on the pi's

[dragon]

From my understanding, a straight Debian armhf distro install will run
on the rPi 2 and rPi 3. It should also provide performance improvements
over Raspbian. When Raspbian is built there are many compiler flags that
are disabled for things like vector instructions, etc. This is for
backward compatibility with the first generation of the rPi which has a
much older and stripped down ARM core.

I have no idea if packages compiled for use on an armhf Debian
environment would run on Raspbian, but my guess is that there would be
issues in addition to poor performance depending on the package.

I was looking at using the rPi 2/3 for some realtime audio stuff and
moving to a full fledged armhf distro with the ARM equivalent of SIMD
(vector) instructions enabled made a HUGE difference in what could be
accomplished. I found that Raspbian really hamstrung the performance of
the newer boards and moving to a full fledged armhf distro was like a
night and day performance difference. It went from "this won't work" to
"wow, what else can I throw at this thing!" This was quite some time ago
so perhaps Raspbian has improved? That project got put aside due to
other priorities :(





On 05/05/2017 07:56 AM, andy pugh wrote:
> On 5 May 2017 at 13:41, Charles Steinkuehler  wrote:
>> So does the armhf build run in Raspian or are you using qemu or
>> something?  AFAIK, standard Debian armhf code won't run on the RPi
>> because Raspbian uses a different ABI (due to the not-quite full armhf
>> compatible CPU on the original RPi).
> 
> It might be worth considering that Gene's experience seems to be that
> LinuxCNC on the Pi runs less than flawlessly.
> 
> https://wiki.debian.org/RaspberryPi
> 
> Seems to suggest that armhf works on Pi >= 2.0
> 
> buildbot "sim" builds run with realtime on preempt-rt kernels.
> 



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Re: [Emc-users] about to give up on the pi's

[dragon]

In case you are interested I have tried both the AsRock Q1900-ITX and
Q1900-M. Both have a par port header on the board and worked fine with a
Pico Universal PWM card and had a very acceptable jitter even without
trying to tweak things.

I don't see why they wouldn't work with the 7i90 as well.


On 05/04/2017 11:41 AM, andy pugh wrote:
> On 4 May 2017 at 17:33, Gene Heskett  wrote:
>> But the only box I have that fits that description is a huge swarf magnet
>> Dell with an old slow p4 in it. I've no clue how fast its parport might
>> be. The only reason I haven't binned it is its my programmer for the
>> 7i90's.
> 
> But the question you asked was about what new x86 board to get to
> drive the 7i90.
> So, buy a new, fanless, Mini-ITX board with onboard parport.
> 



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Re: [Emc-users] AMC seems to have removed all legacy manuals in last couple of days

[dragon]

I discovered this a few weeks back when they launched their new site.
archive.org just generates an empty file with a .pdf extension so it was
no help. I did find that you could still get to them from the European
website... for now.


On 04/10/2017 09:35 PM, Jon Elson wrote:
> On 04/10/2017 08:32 PM, Ken Strauss wrote:
>> Have you checked archive.org for captured copies?
>>
>>
> It turns out the manuals are still there, but you can't get 
> to them from the product selector.  But, if you go in 
> through the document search, and know the part numbers, they 
> still come up.  I downloaded a number of the .pdf files.
> 
> It seems these are not directly available from html, you 
> have to invoke a script to fetch the .pdf for you.
> So, it may be that no archive, wayback, etc. would have them.
> 
> Jon
> 
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Re: [Emc-users] Thoughts on extending the life of the microsd's.

[dragon]

For about three years now, I know of no other applications that has
issues with noatime other than Mutt. Everyone always says 'but it breaks
programs like Mutt' but in reality these days, my experience has been
that it only breaks Mutt. There used to be more applications that it
caused issues with but mostly they have either been patched or
deprecated. I have been using noatime for about 5 years now and have
experienced no issues with it on everything from desktops to servers to
dedicated appliance type setups for realtime audio and radio automation.

From what I have read, SSHFS has a bit more overhead in comparison to
NFS. In fairness though, I have never personally tested for it. Perhaps
someone else on the list has more info. On a desktop or server I
wouldn't sweat it too much but on the Pi it could make a difference. You
could just try both and see what happens. I have used both of them,
depending on the situation, but have never compared the impact on system
performance. Personally I wouldn't encrypt the remote mount on a secure
LAN when using the Pi unless sensitive data was involved. That just
seems like a lot of extra clock cycles for the little Pi, but perhaps I
am worrying about nothing.

Amanda... check the perms on the directory itself, in addition to what
is set up for the mount.




On 03/12/2017 08:23 AM, Gene Heskett wrote:
> On Sunday 12 March 2017 08:39:03 Erik Christiansen wrote:
> 
>> On 11.03.17 16:42, Gene Heskett wrote:
>>> On Saturday 11 March 2017 12:02:36 dragon wrote:
>>>> I doubt that you will ever hit the end of life on a quality SD
>>>> card, especially a large size one. The writes that you are doing,
>>>> and thus the number of blocks, are TINY compared to what the cards
>>>> were designed for... photos and videos. You can also run a flash
>>>> file system instead of ext4 if you like. Checking that noatime is
>>>> set for the filesystem would have a far greater effect than all of
>>>> the writes that you will ever do in daily use. While true at one
>>>> time, this whole wearing out flash storage thing is almost a non
>>>> issue for use cases like this nowdays.
>>>
>>> How do I check that, and with the rube goldberg's hired hand boot
>>> configs used on the pi, how would I set the noatime option?
>>
>> AIUI, as relatime has long been the default (since kernel 2.6.30), you
>> don't really need to do anything. Given that relatime only updates the
>> access time if the previous access time was earlier than the current
>> change time, there'll be slightly more writes than with noatime, but a
>> lot less than with neither - and noatime breaks applications like
>> mutt.
>>
>> If you do want to change it, then in /etc/fstab, add noatime to the
>> comma-separated options in column 4. Before the relatime kernel
>> default change, that was said to give a 10% performance boost. It
>> shouldn't do anything noticeable now, I figure.
>>
>> If there's more recent info than that, it'd be interesting to hear.
>>
> I was concerned on the pi, but its there for /, but not for /boot.  And I 
> was never a fan of mutt, nor is email handled on that machine. It's 
> running 3/4 ton of metal lathe.  But I use what I describe as mounts to 
> put the high traffic dir as a mount over the top of an existing dir in 
> order to put, when its fully operational, that directory effectively 
> remoted to rotating media on this machine, useing sshfs.  This does of 
> course show up in /etc/mtab.  That in turn gives amanda a tummy ache 
> because although its wide open as far as perms go, its reported as no 
> permission despite there being an entry for that directory on the pi's 
> exclude list.  So amanda yowl's about it in the emailed backup report, 
> but it does get backed up with the rest of this machine so its no 
> biggie.
> 
>> Erik
> 
> Thanks for the clarification, Erik.
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> 
> Cheers, Gene Heskett
> 



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Re: [Emc-users] Thoughts on extending the life of the microsd's.

[dragon]

I doubt that you will ever hit the end of life on a quality SD card,
especially a large size one. The writes that you are doing, and thus the
number of blocks, are TINY compared to what the cards were designed
for... photos and videos. You can also run a flash file system instead
of ext4 if you like. Checking that noatime is set for the filesystem
would have a far greater effect than all of the writes that you will
ever do in daily use. While true at one time, this whole wearing out
flash storage thing is almost a non issue for use cases like this nowdays.

Where you buy SD cards makes a difference. There are a LOT of fakes on
fleabay or from 'other' vendors on amazon and such sites. The 'pro'
series of cards are often of a much higher quality that the consumer
ones as well.

You can attach spinning or SSD disks via USB and it works just fine. I
highly suggest using a powered SATA adapter though, even for SSDs as the
pi just doesn't have many watts on the 5v bus to go around. I 'think'
you still need to boot off of the SD card though. Just the bootloader,
initram and kernel. Then your entire root and userspace can be on the
USB attached storage or an NFS mount.

In my opinion, if you have multiple machines of any given type (more
than one mill for example) then it makes sense to have an NFS mount of
some sort so that you can share NC files and tool tables, etc.

YMMV

On 03/11/2017 10:29 AM, Gene Heskett wrote:
> Greetings all;
> 
> When I setup LCNC on the pi, one of the things I did was to make an 
> R-Pi_nc_files directory on the rotating media of this machine, copied 
> all the .ngc files I have generated to run on TLM to it, and cleaned out 
> the nc_files directory on the pi, leaving only 2 files, which will 
> remind me when I see them that the directory on this machine has not 
> been mounted on top of that one.
> 
> Thats by this one liner script:
> 
> sshfs 
> g...@coyote.coyote.den:/home/gene/linuxcnc/R-Pi_nc_files/ 
> /home/pi/linuxcnc/R-Pi_nc_files
> 
> All one line of course, and the .ini file edited to point nc_files at it.
> 
> With all the config file updates I am doing as I work on both the jog 
> wheels and in due time the gear shift stuff when I've installed the belt 
> position sensors, that I am using up the microsd. It is a bigger one, a 
> Samsung 32Gb, so it will be a while before that occurs, unlike the 
> san-disk lookalikes that I destroyed 2 of in 3 days each.  Bad karma, 
> and ruined my taste for san-disk stuff entirely.
> 
> I am considering doing the similar remote mount of rotating media for the 
> configs directory as it is getting 100x the read-modify-write activity 
> as I make this and that work. An sshfs mount doesn't seem to be any 
> slower than the microsd so far. But since it gets a write to new .var 
> files everytime I close LCNC, it seems like a good idea.
> 
> That mount could be incorporated into the above script as:
> 
> sshfs 
> g...@coyote.den:/home/gene/linuxcnc/R-Pi_configs/ /home/pi/linuxcnc/configs
> 
> Shoot me down if you think its wrong. :-)
> 
> I do have amanda backing up the whole pi, so I could theoretically 
> recover to last nights backup state on a fresh Samsumg microsd with a 
> basic jessie install on it, but it does take time that I'd like to 
> forestall doing as long as I can.
> 
> A 2nd alternative might be a usb to ssd adaptor but I've not investigated 
> setting up such a critter.  Has anyone else?
> 
> Cheers, Gene Heskett
> 



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Re: [Emc-users] Using a jog wheel to move through a gcode program

[dragon]

I don't know if I would find it useful but that is AWESOME!

On 03/07/2017 12:35 PM, sam sokolik wrote:
> There is a reverse run branch that rob created that allows you to do 
> negative adaptive feed.  This and some hal bits an you can 'jog' through 
> a gcode program.  Don't know if I would ever use this..  but it is kinda 
> cool :) Someone had mentioned that another control had this 
> functionality - that made me want to see if it was possible..
> 
> https://youtu.be/u9QqVx3_RgA
> 
> I was using a HB04 wireless pendant - A real encoder with a good 
> velocity estimation would be a lot better.  (I had to do some fiddly 
> bits to get a velocity from the encoder counts.)
> 
> sam
> 
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Re: [Emc-users] Durable Paint [Was: gee, is list in anechoic chamber]

[dragon]

As for the Ag paints, I prefer Van Sickle it seems to have a bit better
UV resistance but they are pretty close. I personally don't think any of
them are much better than good 'ol rust-o-leum unless you use a
hardener. The rust-o-leum seams to dry slower though. For the best of
both worlds you can use the hardener meant for Valspar Ag paints with
rust-o-leum, or likely any oil base enamel, if you don't mind working
with the isocyanates. Going that way lets you get a custom color as many
places carry the rust-o-leum bases and can custom tint them.

Personally I would rather avoid the risk of the hardeners and just deal
with repainting the item after a couple of years if needed. If I really
need a hard finish I will take it to a body shop where they are set up
to deal with it. Alternatively I would take it to a powder coater, but
we don't have anyone close by in my neck of the woods.

A good primer makes all the difference in the world, as does using a
phosphor etch if not using a self-etching primer. This seems to really
help with both adhesion and rust resistance.

One trick that I have used while avoiding the hardeners is to either
bake the enamels in the over, or use heat lamps or the sun on larger
pieces to get the surface temperature up. It seems that by curing them a
bit faster they get to the hardness level that you don't see for a
couple of months otherwise. Oh, and the spray bombs of rust-o-leum seem
to take almost 10 times longer to get nice and durable in comparison to
the pints, quarts, gallons. I suppose it is all of the extra solvent?



On 03/07/2017 08:05 AM, Dave Cole wrote:
> They do have some quality items, but you pay for them.
> 
> You are revealing your age just a little.  :-)
> I've been around the block a few times as well.
> 
> Regular oil based Rustoleum paint is good for at least 20 years outside 
> if done with a primer and at least one heavy topcoat. But the surface 
> has to be properly prepped.  I have past projects which have proved that.
> 
> I recently purchased some one part polyurethane (moisture cured) from 
> Rural King that says that it has a 30 year design life outside.
> Not bad for $80/gallon!
> 
> I re-roofed the house a few years ago and decided against 50 year 
> shingles since I won't need anything that will last that long. ;-)
> 
> Dave
> 
> On 3/4/2017 11:25 PM, Chris Albertson wrote:
>> On Sat, Mar 4, 2017 at 12:52 PM, Dave Cole  wrote:
>>> Usually when they put "marine" on the label the price automatically gets
>>> jacked up 50%. :-(
>> I wish it was "only" 50%.   But WM has been my go-to store when I need
>> the best quality hardware, paint or electrical supplies.   Where else
>> can you walk into a local retail store and find made in the US liquid
>> tight sealed toggle switches, or even heat shrink tube with an
>> internal lining of hot melt glue or any hardware item in type 316
>> stainless?
>>
>> Last I used that paint it was outdoors with a foam brush.  I have a
>> few items I painted that have been continuously outdoors for 30 years
>> still looking very good.But not cheap when you buy it by the half
>> quart.  Or maybe it is cheap when you consider the lifetime cost
>>
>>
>>> Two part poly/urethane paint is great stuff, but it is also very
>>> toxic.   Isocyanates are usually used as a catalyst.
>>>
>>> You need to be very careful with that stuff.   I have used it, and it
>>> works great, but it is a health risk if you don't use the right gear
>>> including good gloves, keep the paint off your skin, and a charcoal
>>> cartridge mask at a minimum if you spray it.
>>>
>>> Painters that use Poly/urethane paint regularly,  use supplied air
>>> systems with full body suits so they avoid the fumes entirely and keep
>>> it off their skin.
>>>
>>> Dave
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> On 3/4/2017 1:30 PM, Gene Heskett wrote:
 On Saturday 04 March 2017 13:13:41 Chris Albertson wrote:

> Gene,
>
> Do you live anyplace near a large body of water.  If so there is a
> West Marine store near you.   Look for the paint there.  They sell
> stuff used by boat owners who keep their boat in salt water 24x7.  The
> best paint I found there is a catalyzed two part polyurethane.  It
> comes in two cans.  you mix then and then most use the paint within a
> short time.   You can spray it but it goes no well with a farm brush.
>How hard it it?  New cars now all have plastic painted bumpers, this
> is when the car makers use on the numbers. It is tough stuff.
> Problem is that whole price is over $100 per gallon and retail is
> about $80 per 1/2 quart.But if you are after "bought" you need the
> kind of paint that is mixed just before use.
>
> The spray=on "epoxy" just epoxy power fillers in it and a normal
> binder.
>
> There is also the kind that uses UV light to catalyze the reaction but
> that is even more expensive and needs special UV light "ovens".  The
> dentist 

Re: [Emc-users] damn radio shack

[dragon]

Yep, I was just in town yesterday and the rat-shack there is suddenly
closing. They had 20-30% off storewide and 50% off everything in the
parts drawers. Of course with the inflated prices and poor quality of
most of their stuff that still isn't a good deal :P


On 03/07/2017 08:06 AM, Stephen Dubovsky wrote:
> Just a couple days ago RS was preparing to file for bankruptcy *AGAIN*.
> They need to give up.
> 
> On Tue, Mar 7, 2017 at 8:18 AM, Ron Ginger  wrote:
> 
>> On 3/7/2017 4:55 AM, emc-users-requ...@lists.sourceforge.net wrote:
>>> BTW I thought all of the Radio Shack stored were closed and the company
>> was
>>> gone.   I guess not yet.
>>
>>
>> No, they closed a bunch of stores but kept some open. It went through a
>> bankruptcy and is now  under new management. There was an interview with
>> the new management on an Adafruit video a couple months ago. They are
>> talking like getting back to the old RS with good hobby focus.
>>
>> There is also a franchise division where the stores are independent.
>> They remain in operation. I am lucky to have one in my town- a rather
>> rural place, but the store has RS and several other lines.
>>
>> ron ginger
>>
>> 
>> --
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Re: [Emc-users] Bridgeport servo troubleshooting

[dragon]

I would try putting the X drive connected to the Z motor in place of the
Z drive. If it runs fine then you know that the servo motor, tach,
encoder, and wiring into and out of the drive are all fine for the Z
axis and thus the drive would have to be the problem.



On 03/04/2017 11:37 AM, Ben Potter wrote:
> From: andy pugh [mailto:bodge...@gmail.com] 
>> On 4 March 2017 at 16:33, Ben Potter  wrote:
>>> On power up Z ran at maximum speed until I hit e-stop
> 
>> So, the Z was blowing the fuse, but now it runs at max speed?
> Yes, but the same drive connected to the X motor/tacho also runs at max 
> speed. Have not tried the X drive connected to the Z motor.
> 
>> Do you have tachometers?
> 
> Yes, they're SEM motors - DC brushed, tacho + 11ua sin/cos encoder.
> 
>> --
>> atp
>> "A motorcycle is a bicycle with a pandemonium attachment and is designed for 
>> the especial use of mechanical geniuses, daredevils and lunatics."
>> — George Fitch, Atlanta Constitution Newspaper, 1916
> 
> 
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Re: [Emc-users] Need pyvcp-xml expert

[dragon]

Doh! Even I missed that.

I still suggest choosing something other than Helvetica.

On 03/02/2017 07:05 AM, John Thornton wrote:
> Because you were tired and forgot the closing )
> ("Helvetica",12 < brokey
> ("Helvetica",12)  
> JT
> 
> On 3/2/2017 4:26 AM, Gene Heskett wrote:
>> Greetings all;
>>
>> For some reason I cannot grok, I must comment out the two lines isolated
>> with xml comment strings in this xml code:
>>
>> 
>>
>>  
>>
>>  "X-Jog size"
>>  
>>
>>
>>  "raised"
>>  2
>>  23
>>  "X-Jog"
>>  ("Helvetica",18)
>>  ".4f"
>>
>>  
>>  
>>
>>  "Z-Jog size"
>>  
>>
>>
>>  "raised"
>>  2
>>  23
>>  "Z-Jog"
>>  ("Helvetica",18)
>>  ".4f"
>>
>>  
>>
>>
>> Its a text holder box, why can't I specify the font.  Without it, I think
>> its using some other stick font at about size 10.  That exact same
>> syntax works in the "number" box. Why not in a label box?
>>
>> Thanks all. I'm going back to bed, need some zz's.
>>
>> Cheers, Gene Heskett
> 
> 
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Re: [Emc-users] Need pyvcp-xml expert

[dragon]

It might be because Helvetica is a long since gone font that I doubt is
installed on your system. I have worked with another open source
software project that has a bunch of legacy helvetica font selection
hard coded into the C++. Boy that's a pain.

Just pick a different font that you know is installed and see if that helps.

On 03/02/2017 04:26 AM, Gene Heskett wrote:
> Greetings all;
> 
> For some reason I cannot grok, I must comment out the two lines isolated 
> with xml comment strings in this xml code:
> 
> 
>   
> 
>   
> "X-Jog size"
> 
>   
>   
> "raised"
> 2
> 23
> "X-Jog"
> ("Helvetica",18)
> ".4f"
>   
> 
> 
>   
>   "Z-Jog size"
> 
>   
>   
> "raised"
> 2
> 23
> "Z-Jog"
> ("Helvetica",18)
> ".4f"
>   
> 
>   
> 
> Its a text holder box, why can't I specify the font.  Without it, I think 
> its using some other stick font at about size 10.  That exact same 
> syntax works in the "number" box. Why not in a label box?
> 
> Thanks all. I'm going back to bed, need some zz's.
> 
> Cheers, Gene Heskett
> 



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Re: [Emc-users] Running servo amplifiers in velocity mode vs. torque mode

[dragon]

We found out in Wichita that the Pico drives can't handle a high enough
voltage for these servos. So that is why the decision to get the the AMC
BE25A20 drives when some became available. The 'E' in the part number is
because they will accept encoder input for running in velocity mode, so
in this case we can use that instead of a tach.

More generally though, I still haven't found the reason that AMC has
always recommended to use current mode when using their amps for CNC
control. Judging from the responses so far, it seems to contradict what
most are saying in respect to having an inner velocity loop makes things
much easier to tune.



On 03/01/2017 12:08 PM, Jon Elson wrote:
> On 03/01/2017 07:46 AM, dragon wrote:
>> I have a project coming up soon that involves a retrofit of a Cel-Con
>> HMC. The owner has a bunch of AMC BE25A20 drives to use on it. The servo
>> motors are Fanuc red caps and we have some of Pico Systems' converters
>> that give us the hall and encoder signals from the motors.
>>
>> I have been doing a bunch of reading trying to figure out if it is
>> better to run the servo amplifiers in velocity mode or torque mode.
> Do you have DC tachometers in the motors?  If not, then the 
> only way to run the servo amps in velocity mode is to 
> provide a synthetic tach signal to the drives, derived from 
> the encoder.  Using it with any of the Pico products, you 
> will only get one update of the velocity every servo period, 
> and the PPMC incurs a whole servo period delay between 
> position sampling and DAC update (The DACs update at the 
> next sampling of the encoder position).  Also, this would 
> take two DAC channels per axis (one for tach, one for 
> velocity command).
> 
> So, there would be very little advantage to running in 
> velocity mode, without real tachs (unless you get one of the 
> encoder to tach converters that some people have built.)  
> There used to be a great chip to do this, it hasn't been 
> made in about 15 years.
> 
> Jon
> 
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Re: [Emc-users] Running servo amplifiers in velocity mode vs. torque mode

[dragon]

Ah... so in this case, the amplifier itself would do the inner velocity
loop. The outer position loop is all that is expected from LinunxCNC then.



On 03/01/2017 11:24 AM, Nicklas Karlsson wrote:
> On Wed, 1 Mar 2017 07:46:24 -0600
> dragon <tfishw...@gmail.com> wrote:
> 
>> I have a project coming up soon that involves a retrofit of a Cel-Con
>> HMC. The owner has a bunch of AMC BE25A20 drives to use on it. The servo
>> motors are Fanuc red caps and we have some of Pico Systems' converters
>> that give us the hall and encoder signals from the motors.
>>
>> I have been doing a bunch of reading trying to figure out if it is
>> better to run the servo amplifiers in velocity mode or torque mode. I
>> have found many references that AMC recommends always using torque mode
>> for CNC applications, and indeed that is how Galil uses their
>> amplifiers. I have also read however that control is more precise and
>> 'definitive' when the amplifier can run in velocity mode with the loop
>> closed by connecting tach or encoder feedback to the amp.
>>
>> What is the consensus on this from LinuxCNC users and developers? What
>> have been your experiences?
> 
> It is harder to tune the PID regulator with torque as an input than with 
> velocity as an input for position control. Usually there is a inner velocity 
> loop with an outer position loop.
> 
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Re: [Emc-users] Running servo amplifiers in velocity mode vs. torque mode

[dragon]

Thanks Chris...

Yeah, if no one chimes in with some actual experience I might just have
to do that experiment.

That Cel-Con should be capable of some pretty decent speeds and does
have a bit of mass so that should be a good test.



On 03/01/2017 09:23 AM, Chris Radek wrote:
> On Wed, Mar 01, 2017 at 07:46:24AM -0600, dragon wrote:
> 
>> better to run the servo amplifiers in velocity mode or torque mode. I
> 
> I think the benefits of velocity mode are that it better tolerates
> (still gives smooth motion with) low encoder resolution and low servo
> cycle update rates, and it's much easier to tune the position loop
> (the part in linuxcnc/hal).
> 
> Some old CNCs had 100Hz servo cycles and fairly rough position
> feedback.  If you didn't want to see stair steps on the taper you
> were cutting on your lathe, you really wanted velocity mode so it
> would keep moving in about the same direction between updates.
> 
> The drawback of velocity mode is the amp is much more complicated,
> and you have to tune the velocity loop in the amp, and you might
> even need extra parts, such as tachs, to give velocity feedback in
> hardware.
> 
> Today with millisecond or faster servo cycles, and really fine
> encoders, I bet you can get similar results with both setups.
> 
> If you can select with a switch, why not try tuning up an axis both
> ways and see what works best?  I'd love to see your results if you
> do this.
> 
> Chris
> 
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[Emc-users] PWM vs. analog input servo amplifiers

[dragon]

What are the advantages and disadvantages of using PWM input vs. analog
input servo amplifiers?

Unless I am mistaken, it looks like it is easier to drive the PWM input
ones as they can be driven directly off of something like a Mesa 6i24
without the need for the additional analog interface card. I have worked
with Pico Systems PWM drives before, as well as Mesa 7i29 amplifiers
too. I have no complaints with how those performed. Can I expect the
same thing if using, say an AMC drive that has PWM/Dir input? Or would
it be better to use an analog input AMC amp combined with an analog
interface such as a 7i33 or 7i48?

Thanks everyone!



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[Emc-users] Running servo amplifiers in velocity mode vs. torque mode

[dragon]

I have a project coming up soon that involves a retrofit of a Cel-Con
HMC. The owner has a bunch of AMC BE25A20 drives to use on it. The servo
motors are Fanuc red caps and we have some of Pico Systems' converters
that give us the hall and encoder signals from the motors.

I have been doing a bunch of reading trying to figure out if it is
better to run the servo amplifiers in velocity mode or torque mode. I
have found many references that AMC recommends always using torque mode
for CNC applications, and indeed that is how Galil uses their
amplifiers. I have also read however that control is more precise and
'definitive' when the amplifier can run in velocity mode with the loop
closed by connecting tach or encoder feedback to the amp.

What is the consensus on this from LinuxCNC users and developers? What
have been your experiences?

Thanks in advance everyone.



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Re: [Emc-users] encoder Q too

[dragon]

On 02/27/2017 12:28 PM, Gene Heskett wrote:
>> You can set the increments that 'i/I' will toggle through in the ini
>> file.
> Example?  Or is that the global setting it now displays as a 
> multiselector when using the mouse to do fixed incrementals?
> 

I am only aware of the global setting. It is the...

INCREMENTS =

line in the ini file. Do note that if you change the order on that line,
it does change the order when using the Axis gui. This is nice as you
can group your most used ones together, even if they skip around in
'size' some and then put the ones that would fit between them that you
don't often use, at the end of the list.



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Re: [Emc-users] encoder Q too

[dragon]

I would like to add a physical button to issue an MDI to feed Z at the
currently set feedrate and then of course a stop button. Also one for X
to face off parts. I think that could be a handy replacement for the no
longer present power feeds since I won't have a manual machine.



On 02/27/2017 10:57 AM, Jon Elson wrote:
> On 02/27/2017 09:43 AM, dragon wrote:
>> Not to say that I don't like using a handwheel encoder for what you are
>> looking to do but after reading your mouse click comments I wondered if
>> you are aware of the following keyboard shortcuts...
>>
>>   <, >decrement or increment axis speed
>>   c/C select continuous jogging
>>   i/I select incremental jog, and toggle through increments
>>   1-9,0   set feed override to 10%-90%, 0 is 100%
>>
>> You can set the increments that 'i/I' will toggle through in the ini file.
>>
>> I hate mice too ;)
>>
> I use a mixture.  When facing off a surface until "cleaned 
> up", I use the jog dial to count down the thousandths of an 
> inch of Z feed, then use the continuous jog keys on the 
> keyboard to make the passes.  This is all manual machining 
> to clean up the exterior of the parts before I get to the 
> G-code part of the work.
> 
> The mouse is generally only used to select files from the menu.
> 
> Jon
> 
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Re: [Emc-users] encoder Q too

[dragon]

Not to say that I don't like using a handwheel encoder for what you are
looking to do but after reading your mouse click comments I wondered if
you are aware of the following keyboard shortcuts...

 <, >decrement or increment axis speed
 c/C select continuous jogging
 i/I select incremental jog, and toggle through increments
 1-9,0   set feed override to 10%-90%, 0 is 100%

You can set the increments that 'i/I' will toggle through in the ini file.

I hate mice too ;)


On 02/27/2017 09:07 AM, Gene Heskett wrote:
> On Monday 27 February 2017 08:54:11 John Kasunich wrote:
> 
>> What do you want to use the direction for?
>>
>> If you are using the jogwheel as a jogwheel, you don't need direction
>> at all. LinuxCNC's motion module handles that.
> 
> Needed to decrement the u32 for slower speeds per detent felt in the 
> fingers, basically getting back to a microstep per felt click as the 
> minimum speed.
> 
> I was going to use the A signal as the stepup/stepdown clock.  Is there a 
> better way, John?
> 
> I do not want to have to grab the mouse, find the + & - buttons on the 
> screen, hit the right one, and issue a bunch of clicks to achieve a 
> counts per click change that is then sent to motion.joint-jog.  Much 
> more time consuming that way.
> 
> I am also assuming that motion does not apply a jog when its already 
> issueing move commands of its own, but I'll lock the encoders reset down 
> when it is in motion, even if it is jogwheel induced motion. Fewer 
> operator suprises I think.
> 
> Advice appreciated since my original block diagram of this was just 
> invalidated by multiswitch's behavior, and a new way isn't totally 
> fleshed out yet in whats left of my mind.
> 
> Thank you John.
> 
> [...]
> 
> Cheers, Gene Heskett
> 



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Re: [Emc-users] Copley 513 internal header

[dragon]

Unfortunately the data sheet available on the copley site shows the
header and which components are resistors or capacitors, but that is the
only information. I used the Internet Archive Wayback machine to look at
previous versions of the site too, but all I can find is that same data
sheet. It doesn't look like they ever released a proper "manual" for the
513 on their website.

I can't even find another model that has the same number of pins on that
header, so I guess I will look for other drives.



On 02/24/2017 08:34 PM, Jon Elson wrote:
> On 02/24/2017 05:04 PM, dragon wrote:
>> Copley has a data sheet available for the 513 but it does nothing more
>> than mention the internal header. I contacted them and they said that
>> they are unable to help out with anything that old.
>>
>> Does anyone have info on the internal header that is used for some of
>> the settings, and the equations or procedures for finding the proper
>> component values of the resistors and capacitors that get installed?
>>
>>
> Gee, that's too bad.  I don't have anything on the 513, but 
> I do have an old 405 manual.
> But, you should look here, first:
> http://www.copleycontrols.com/Motion/Downloads/legacy.html
> 
> Some of those units may have enough similarity to your 513 
> to be useful.  There is a 5131CE, which might be just a 
> newer version of the 513.  Some looking at the docs might 
> make it clear that would be the case, or not.
> The manual does show the "internal header".
> 
> Jon
> 
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[Emc-users] Copley 513 internal header

[dragon]

Copley has a data sheet available for the 513 but it does nothing more
than mention the internal header. I contacted them and they said that
they are unable to help out with anything that old.

Does anyone have info on the internal header that is used for some of
the settings, and the equations or procedures for finding the proper
component values of the resistors and capacitors that get installed?

Thanks!



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Re: [Emc-users] VFD recommendations

[dragon]

Here is a link to the manual for a VFD that I am considering...

http://www.hclub.ee/download/varia/KOC100%20Series%20User%20Manual--20150119(V1.1).pdf

If someone that is familiar with modbus could take a quick look and see
if it looks to support the standard RTU protocol I would be most
grateful. If it does, I think I can figure out the modbus-to-hal details
to get it to work.

Thanks!

On 02/01/2017 08:35 PM, dragon wrote:
> I want to start looking for VFDs for my lathe and mill conversions. I
> have two 2hp 3 phase motors to use for the spindles. Of course if I came
> across a 3hp for the lathe some day it might get upgraded.
> 
> Are there any drawbacks to using MODBUS instead of the usual analog 10v
> interface?
> 
> Does anyone have suggestions for particular brands or models of VFD? I
> have worked with several Hitachi and one Toshiba VFD but that is all.
> Remember that these are home/hobby machines and I do need to try to keep
> costs down, but I don't want to be penny wise and pound foolish either.
> 
> Thanks!
> 



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Re: [Emc-users] vfd compatibility

[dragon]

The 20ma control circuit on the VFD is an analog control, where as the
parallel port pin is a digital (on/off) signal. You will need some sort
of hardware interface between the two to do a digital to analog conversion.




On 02/15/2017 12:36 PM, Valerio Bellizzomi wrote:
> On Wed, 2017-02-15 at 10:22 -0800, Kirk Wallace wrote:
>> On 02/15/2017 09:25 AM, Valerio Bellizzomi wrote:
>>> Hello,
>>>
>>> I have an Toshiba vfd which has a current signal input (max 20mA), is
>>> that compatible with linuxcnc to be wired to S gcode command ?
>>>
>>>
>>> Thanks.
>>
>> Briefly, mostly yes.
>>
>> The S word has an associated HALpin. This HALpin can be HAL connected to 
>> another HALpin that handles the hardware that can affect your VFD speed 
>> function. So:
>>
>>> S word --> S word HALpin --> 20ma HALpin/20ma HALcomponent -- 20ma hardware
>>> ^^ g-code/MDI -- .hal configuration file -- HAL .comp component file -- 
>>> wire from hardware interface to VFD
>>
>> In other words, LinuxCNC already has a S word HALpin that you can use to 
>> connect your 20ma interface to. You would need to decide what hardware 
>> you want to use and look for or make the HAL component (software).
>>
> 
> 
> I am not aware of any interface hardware , I thought to wire one
> parallel pin to the vfd, but I might be wrong.
> 
> suggestions?
> 
> 
> 
> 
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Re: [Emc-users] VFD recommendations

[dragon]

So some more questions about VFDs...

What are the advantages of a sensorless vector drive and is it worth the
extra cost?

Are there any sensorless vector drives that have a supported modbus driver?

Is there a list of VFDs with linuxCNC modbus support somewhere other than...
http://wiki.linuxcnc.org/cgi-bin/wiki.pl?VFD_Modbus

and the HY series of Huanyang drives?

Thanks again everyone!



On 02/05/2017 01:55 PM, dragon wrote:
> So it looks like perhaps only the 7.5kW model is the new GT series. I
> don't need anything near that big so if I go with the Huanyang I would
> be getting the model that uses the existing driver.
> 
> Looking at the driver docs and code, it looks like there is no way to
> request the motor load. However since the driver has HAL pins to report
> most of the parameters would it be possible to calculate the spindle load?
> 
> 
> 
> On 02/03/2017 10:06 AM, Sebastian Kuzminsky wrote:
>> On 02/03/2017 07:34 AM, dragon wrote:
>>> I just re-read this... If modbus is correctly implemented in the GT
>>> series, could you just use MB2HAL?
>>
>> I think the Huanyang GT VFD should talk to any Modbus Master, including 
>> MB2HAL.
>>
>>
> 



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Re: [Emc-users] Changing the full scale range the pyvcp tach displays

[dragon]

I would sense the RPM directly at the spindle... not at the motor.

Then use gearchange so that the system knows what range you are in to
send the VFD the correct signal for wanted speed.

Sensing at the motor doesn't account for belt slip either, and that
would make rigid tapping iffy IMHO.

just my thoughts


On 02/09/2017 11:56 AM, Gene Heskett wrote:
> Greetings everybody, from the fringe of the snowstorm in the upper right 
> coast;
> 
> One of the things I would like to do is to change the full scale range of 
> the pyvcp tachometer, which is set in the panel-pyvcp.xml file at 
> present.
> 
> I can of course edit that and restart LCNC, but until such time as I get 
> some sort of a photocel/ir-led setup to determine the belt position, I'd 
> like to setup a pair of gui buttons to change that full scale range.
> 
> That looks like an 8 step up-down button pair for control. 
> Its not a problem to edit up 8 copies of the xml, or perhaps just 8 
> versions of the text changes needed. But how do I get pyvcp to 
> re-execute and redraw the tach with the changed values?
> 
> What do you folks recommend?
> 
> The missus was walking, slowly and tenderly with a walker last night, so 
> she will be ok in due time.
> 
> Cheers, Gene Heskett
> 



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Re: [Emc-users] need a tutorial on 3 phase, 1.2 degree a step, motors

[dragon]

I felt that I said more than $.02... no inflation, just additional
opinion ;)

I don't want to argue more but will answer some of your questions.

I posted the motor specs, other than the dimensions. I can measure one
for you next time I am in the garage if you like. Brushes are a common
size and about $10 a set IIRC. I got lucky and the brushes are like new
in the 6 I got. I wrote that the encoders are either 500ppr or 1000ppr.
That itself indicates that they are absolute encoders. They are not
differential, but you don't need that anyway with the mesa interfaces.

I mentioned that I didn't pay the buy it now price but made them an
offer. If you would like to pay the asking price, that is your choice. I
understand about the feedback rating and you have to do your own
investigating and make up your own mind about taking that chance. It is
definitely worth paying more from a better rated seller sometimes. My
first purchase was from another 'seller' from the same company that had
a high feedback score but I bought the last ones that seller had listed.
The next ones were from the link I gave. Electrocraft still makes
essentially the same motor under a different model number (they changed
all of their model numbers) if you want to spend for new price.

Yes, a 7i33 quad analog servo interface would communicate with any of
the +-10v input servo amps. The 7i33 also has four encoder input
connections. Since you only need X and Z you can use one of the other
outputs and encoder counters for your spindle if you so choose. A
7i42TA, or many other options, will get you home, limit, and estop
switches and any needed outputs.



On 02/06/2017 12:28 PM, Gene Heskett wrote:
> On Monday 06 February 2017 08:27:11 dragon wrote:
> 
>> Tormach has a pretty good white paper on why they chose to use 3 phase
>> steppers on their machines. I found it a great read for future
>> reference even though I was going to use servos anyway.
>>
>> On another note... you can get E661 servos with encoders off of ebay
>> for $40 to your door and they are a great match for your Sheldon. Grab
>> some used servo drives for about $50 each depending on your power
>> supply situation. That is certainly cheaper than the 3 phase steppers
>> that you are looking at. Personally if I was to do 3 phase steppers, I
>> would go with the Leadshine stuff.
>>
>> Just my $.10
> 
> I see inflation has hit the 2 cents define. :)
> 
> With shipping added to the $52 they are asking today, about $75 on my 
> front deck.  And this guys feedback rating is crap at 85%.  The next guy 
> has a 100% rating and wants $65 for it, then $72 something from the last 
> peddler.
> 
> But zero data, and that model is so old Electrocraft's web search can't 
> find it.  So how much twist, what voltage & amps to get that twist, and 
> how long is it behind the mounting face? I don't really have a length 
> limit for Z, but X is not more than 115mm's.
> 
> IOW, where can I find the info to use it?
> 
> I am seeing mentions of up to 300 volts and 12 amps, but not in the same 
> advert links.  These are brushed motors, can I get brushes?  Its also a 
> change to a card to drive servo's, more bucks. As in $80 for a card that 
> slaves 4 servo's to the pwm signals from my 7i90. I assume those +-10 
> volt signals can drive the amplifiers, but are the encoders position or 
> velocity tachs?
> 
> Lots of questions I'm afraid, and a bigger bottom line at the end of the 
> probably 3 months it would take to get it all working.
> 
> Thank you.
>>
>> On 02/06/2017 03:09 AM, Gene Heskett wrote:
>>> Greetings everybody;
>>>
>>> I just spent an hour on wikipedia, and another hour reading
>>> everything that google spits out on 3 phase stepper motors, and have
>>> not found a convincing argument in favor of 2 phase, other than
>>> their ready availability.
>>>
>>> I can get off fleabay, 3 phase, 230 volt ac powered drivers in size
>>> & voltages suitable to move this lathe with, for a big buck + an if
>>> it fits box from the USPO. Those are here, on the left coast.
>>>
>>> But no one on this side of either pond is stocking the 3 phase
>>> version of the motors, and due to their weight, its 2 to 4 weeks,
>>> and another 56 bucks or so to get any of them because they are all
>>> in China, so an $80 nema 34 is about $140 on my front deck. Close to
>>> $250 an axis IOW.
>>>
>>> So I need to see a decent discussion on the subject before I cut
>>> that big a hole in the card.
>>>
>>> Many thanks for any educational url's on the 3 phase motors you
>>> folks can supply.
>>>
>>> Cheers, Gene Heskett
> 

Re: [Emc-users] need a tutorial on 3 phase, 1.2 degree a step, motors

[dragon]

Forgot to mention...

The same model number of servo came with either a 500ppr or 1000ppr
Renco encoder from my research. Unfortunately Renco put the part number
under the cap.

As a note, the previously mentioned CHNC ran at a reduced ~50v for a
while turning out parts all day long at around 50-60 IPM. After some
upgrades and the voltage was bumped to about 100v it now runs at 150 IPM
and would likely go faster but that was more than fast enough for the owner.



On 02/06/2017 10:57 AM, dragon wrote:
> Very true Todd. I relied on advice from others who have been there, done
> that. I also worked with a CHNC that had some E661 servos so knew about
> what their capabilities were. But google helps a bunch too in this
> particular case...
> 
> Reliance Electric E661 (661-028-0156) Spec's:
> Peak Torque : 450 oz-in
> Continuous Torque : 105 oz-in
> Max Terminal Voltage : 90v
> Continuous Current : 4.4 amp
> Peak Current : 18.7 amp
> Inductance : 6.6 mH
> Motor Kt : 26.71 oz-in / Amp
> Motor Ke : 21 Volts/Krpm
> Continuous Speed : 4,500 rpm (No Load)
> 
> Hardinge used these servos on the CHNC and they are plenty adequate for
> both my 6x26 mill and 10x24 lathe as well as Gene's Sheldon.
> 
> I'm just trying to say that there are possibilities for using servos in
> a situation like mine or Gene's that won't break the bank. This is not
> necessarily a solution for everyone. If it was a production machine, I
> would use new parts and have a high expectation of their performance and
> life span. This is a home/hobby machine and I will likely never put the
> hours on it to wear out the used parts.
> 
> Buying from ebay is a bit of a gamble, but that is where Gene was
> talking about getting things from anyway. That is also why I only
> ordered a couple at first to see if they were in usable condition and
> then went back to the same outfit to get more.
> 
> 
> 
> On 02/06/2017 10:38 AM, Todd  Zuercher wrote:
>> The problem with trying to buy used motor like that is how do you know what 
>> the motor specs are.  There is nothing posted on the add, the Electrocraft 
>> part numbers are old and obsolete, or are a custom part number so you can't 
>> just look them up (at least not easily).  What are the motor dimensions, 
>> V/rpm constant, max amps, encoder counts... all the important stuff you need 
>> to know about a servo before you buy it?
>>
>> - Original Message -
>> From: "dragon" <tfishw...@gmail.com>
>> To: "Enhanced Machine Controller (EMC)" <emc-users@lists.sourceforge.net>
>> Sent: Monday, February 6, 2017 10:15:36 AM
>> Subject: Re: [Emc-users] need a tutorial on 3 phase, 1.2 degree a step,  
>> motors
>>
>> There are several 'sellers' from NES Sales in New York state. I bought a
>> total of 6 from two of them doing a make an offer and they both accepted
>> my offers which ended up at just under $40 each by the time I added
>> shipping. All 6 appear to be in working order, the brushes have little
>> wear, and all of the encoders work, but one is missing the encoder
>> cover. Here is the listing I last purchased from...
>>
>> http://www.ebay.com/itm/122072353227?_trksid=p2057872.m2749.l2649=STRK%3AMEBIDX%3AIT
>>
>> As for drives, it just depends on what you need for current and voltage
>> requirements. If you are running under 80v DC then the AMC B25A8 or
>> B30A8 can be found for as low as $35 + shipping on ebay. There are
>> Copley equivalents as well. I plan to run my DC supply at around 93v
>> after rectification so I will end up spending a bit more as I will need
>> higher voltage amplifiers. I don't mind the extra cost for the increased
>> performance.
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> On 02/06/2017 08:48 AM, John Thornton wrote:
>>> Do you have a link to the $40 servo and $50 drive? All I can find on 
>>> fleabay is $52 and up for the servo + $26 to $32 for shipping.
>>>
>>> JT
>>>
>>>
>>> On 2/6/2017 7:27 AM, dragon wrote:
>>>> On another note... you can get E661 servos with encoders off of ebay for
>>>> $40 to your door and they are a great match for your Sheldon. Grab some
>>>> used servo drives for about $50 each depending on your power supply
>>>> situation.
>>>
>>>
>>> --
>>> Check out the vibrant tech community on one of the world's most
>>> engaging tech sites, SlashDot.org! http://sdm.link/slashdot
>>> ___
>

Re: [Emc-users] need a tutorial on 3 phase, 1.2 degree a step, motors

[dragon]

Very true Todd. I relied on advice from others who have been there, done
that. I also worked with a CHNC that had some E661 servos so knew about
what their capabilities were. But google helps a bunch too in this
particular case...

Reliance Electric E661 (661-028-0156) Spec's:
Peak Torque : 450 oz-in
Continuous Torque : 105 oz-in
Max Terminal Voltage : 90v
Continuous Current : 4.4 amp
Peak Current : 18.7 amp
Inductance : 6.6 mH
Motor Kt : 26.71 oz-in / Amp
Motor Ke : 21 Volts/Krpm
Continuous Speed : 4,500 rpm (No Load)

Hardinge used these servos on the CHNC and they are plenty adequate for
both my 6x26 mill and 10x24 lathe as well as Gene's Sheldon.

I'm just trying to say that there are possibilities for using servos in
a situation like mine or Gene's that won't break the bank. This is not
necessarily a solution for everyone. If it was a production machine, I
would use new parts and have a high expectation of their performance and
life span. This is a home/hobby machine and I will likely never put the
hours on it to wear out the used parts.

Buying from ebay is a bit of a gamble, but that is where Gene was
talking about getting things from anyway. That is also why I only
ordered a couple at first to see if they were in usable condition and
then went back to the same outfit to get more.



On 02/06/2017 10:38 AM, Todd  Zuercher wrote:
> The problem with trying to buy used motor like that is how do you know what 
> the motor specs are.  There is nothing posted on the add, the Electrocraft 
> part numbers are old and obsolete, or are a custom part number so you can't 
> just look them up (at least not easily).  What are the motor dimensions, 
> V/rpm constant, max amps, encoder counts... all the important stuff you need 
> to know about a servo before you buy it?
> 
> - Original Message -
> From: "dragon" <tfishw...@gmail.com>
> To: "Enhanced Machine Controller (EMC)" <emc-users@lists.sourceforge.net>
> Sent: Monday, February 6, 2017 10:15:36 AM
> Subject: Re: [Emc-users] need a tutorial on 3 phase, 1.2 degree a step,   
> motors
> 
> There are several 'sellers' from NES Sales in New York state. I bought a
> total of 6 from two of them doing a make an offer and they both accepted
> my offers which ended up at just under $40 each by the time I added
> shipping. All 6 appear to be in working order, the brushes have little
> wear, and all of the encoders work, but one is missing the encoder
> cover. Here is the listing I last purchased from...
> 
> http://www.ebay.com/itm/122072353227?_trksid=p2057872.m2749.l2649=STRK%3AMEBIDX%3AIT
> 
> As for drives, it just depends on what you need for current and voltage
> requirements. If you are running under 80v DC then the AMC B25A8 or
> B30A8 can be found for as low as $35 + shipping on ebay. There are
> Copley equivalents as well. I plan to run my DC supply at around 93v
> after rectification so I will end up spending a bit more as I will need
> higher voltage amplifiers. I don't mind the extra cost for the increased
> performance.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> On 02/06/2017 08:48 AM, John Thornton wrote:
>> Do you have a link to the $40 servo and $50 drive? All I can find on 
>> fleabay is $52 and up for the servo + $26 to $32 for shipping.
>>
>> JT
>>
>>
>> On 2/6/2017 7:27 AM, dragon wrote:
>>> On another note... you can get E661 servos with encoders off of ebay for
>>> $40 to your door and they are a great match for your Sheldon. Grab some
>>> used servo drives for about $50 each depending on your power supply
>>> situation.
>>
>>
>> --
>> Check out the vibrant tech community on one of the world's most
>> engaging tech sites, SlashDot.org! http://sdm.link/slashdot
>> ___
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>> Emc-users@lists.sourceforge.net
>> https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/emc-users
>>
> 
> 
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Re: [Emc-users] need a tutorial on 3 phase, 1.2 degree a step, motors

[dragon]

There are several 'sellers' from NES Sales in New York state. I bought a
total of 6 from two of them doing a make an offer and they both accepted
my offers which ended up at just under $40 each by the time I added
shipping. All 6 appear to be in working order, the brushes have little
wear, and all of the encoders work, but one is missing the encoder
cover. Here is the listing I last purchased from...

http://www.ebay.com/itm/122072353227?_trksid=p2057872.m2749.l2649=STRK%3AMEBIDX%3AIT

As for drives, it just depends on what you need for current and voltage
requirements. If you are running under 80v DC then the AMC B25A8 or
B30A8 can be found for as low as $35 + shipping on ebay. There are
Copley equivalents as well. I plan to run my DC supply at around 93v
after rectification so I will end up spending a bit more as I will need
higher voltage amplifiers. I don't mind the extra cost for the increased
performance.




On 02/06/2017 08:48 AM, John Thornton wrote:
> Do you have a link to the $40 servo and $50 drive? All I can find on 
> fleabay is $52 and up for the servo + $26 to $32 for shipping.
> 
> JT
> 
> 
> On 2/6/2017 7:27 AM, dragon wrote:
>> On another note... you can get E661 servos with encoders off of ebay for
>> $40 to your door and they are a great match for your Sheldon. Grab some
>> used servo drives for about $50 each depending on your power supply
>> situation.
> 
> 
> --
> Check out the vibrant tech community on one of the world's most
> engaging tech sites, SlashDot.org! http://sdm.link/slashdot
> ___
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> https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/emc-users
> 



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Re: [Emc-users] need a tutorial on 3 phase, 1.2 degree a step, motors

[dragon]

Tormach has a pretty good white paper on why they chose to use 3 phase
steppers on their machines. I found it a great read for future reference
even though I was going to use servos anyway.

On another note... you can get E661 servos with encoders off of ebay for
$40 to your door and they are a great match for your Sheldon. Grab some
used servo drives for about $50 each depending on your power supply
situation. That is certainly cheaper than the 3 phase steppers that you
are looking at. Personally if I was to do 3 phase steppers, I would go
with the Leadshine stuff.

Just my $.10



On 02/06/2017 03:09 AM, Gene Heskett wrote:
> Greetings everybody;
> 
> I just spent an hour on wikipedia, and another hour reading everything 
> that google spits out on 3 phase stepper motors, and have not found a 
> convincing argument in favor of 2 phase, other than their ready 
> availability.
> 
> I can get off fleabay, 3 phase, 230 volt ac powered drivers in size & 
> voltages suitable to move this lathe with, for a big buck + an if it 
> fits box from the USPO. Those are here, on the left coast.
> 
> But no one on this side of either pond is stocking the 3 phase version of 
> the motors, and due to their weight, its 2 to 4 weeks, and another 56 
> bucks or so to get any of them because they are all in China, so an $80 
> nema 34 is about $140 on my front deck. Close to $250 an axis IOW.
> 
> So I need to see a decent discussion on the subject before I cut that big 
> a hole in the card.
> 
> Many thanks for any educational url's on the 3 phase motors you folks can 
> supply.
>  
> Cheers, Gene Heskett
> 



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Re: [Emc-users] VFD recommendations

[dragon]

So it looks like perhaps only the 7.5kW model is the new GT series. I
don't need anything near that big so if I go with the Huanyang I would
be getting the model that uses the existing driver.

Looking at the driver docs and code, it looks like there is no way to
request the motor load. However since the driver has HAL pins to report
most of the parameters would it be possible to calculate the spindle load?



On 02/03/2017 10:06 AM, Sebastian Kuzminsky wrote:
> On 02/03/2017 07:34 AM, dragon wrote:
>> I just re-read this... If modbus is correctly implemented in the GT
>> series, could you just use MB2HAL?
> 
> I think the Huanyang GT VFD should talk to any Modbus Master, including 
> MB2HAL.
> 
> 



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Re: [Emc-users] VFD recommendations

[dragon]

I just re-read this... If modbus is correctly implemented in the GT
series, could you just use MB2HAL?



On 02/02/2017 10:51 AM, Sebastian Kuzminsky wrote:
> On 02/02/2017 09:34 AM, Kirk Wallace wrote:
>> On 02/02/2017 07:02 AM, Sebastian Kuzminsky wrote:
>>
>> ... snip
>>
>>> 2.  The LinuxCNC Huanyang driver only works with the older style of
>>> Huanyang VFDs.  It does not work with the newer GT-series models.  I'm
>>> working on a new driver for Huanyang GT VFDs, but it's not ready yet.
>>
>>
>> Did you have a plan or an overview of the update. I could look at it so
>> then two of us probably won't get around to it.
> 
> The GT-series use a totally different wire protocol from the earlier 
> non-GT VFDs.  Huanyang's manuals calls both protocols "Modbus", but the 
> older non-GT VFD protocol is definitely not Modbus, it's some unique 
> protocol Huanyang made up.  It was reverse engineered by someone named 
> "scotta" on CNC Zone, for which we owe a debt of gratitude.
> 
> The Huanyang GT-series VFDs implement Modbus correctly, so they will be 
> much easier to write a driver for.
> 
> The VFD we got unfortunately lacked the switch on the circuit board that 
> enables Modbus ("SW1"), instead it had a jumper wire there disabling 
> Modbus.  Wat.  After communicating with Huanyang we desoldered this 
> jumper wire and soldered it back in the "enable Modbus" position, and 
> that got it communicating.
> 
> So now it's just a small matter of programming, and writing some docs on 
> how to modify the hardware to allow it to communicate via Modbus.  I 
> should have something ready for testing in a few weeks.
> 
> Those Huanyang VFDs sure are inexpensive, but they're also the most 
> wonky and obstinate VFDs I've ever worked with.
> 
> 



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Re: [Emc-users] VFD recommendations

[dragon]

If you think that a driver is doable and not far off, it probably
doesn't really matter which version I get. For my use I could just
manually control spindle speed until the driver is ready.


On 02/02/2017 04:21 PM, Sebastian Kuzminsky wrote:
> On 02/02/2017 03:04 PM, dragon wrote:
>> how do you tell the difference between the older models and the GT series?
>>
>> I don't see an actual model number on most of the ebay listings
> 
> I think you have to ask the seller.
> 
> The VFD we got came with a manual that says "Huyanyang GT-series" on the 
> front cover, that was our first clue that the old hy_vfd driver might 
> not work.
> 
> The manual says that the name plate on the VFD will have a model number 
> that begins with "GT-", but our VFD had no name plate.
> 
> 



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Re: [Emc-users] VFD recommendations

[dragon]

how do you tell the difference between the older models and the GT series?

I don't see an actual model number on most of the ebay listings



On 02/02/2017 10:51 AM, Sebastian Kuzminsky wrote:
> On 02/02/2017 09:34 AM, Kirk Wallace wrote:
>> On 02/02/2017 07:02 AM, Sebastian Kuzminsky wrote:
>>
>> ... snip
>>
>>> 2.  The LinuxCNC Huanyang driver only works with the older style of
>>> Huanyang VFDs.  It does not work with the newer GT-series models.  I'm
>>> working on a new driver for Huanyang GT VFDs, but it's not ready yet.
>>
>>
>> Did you have a plan or an overview of the update. I could look at it so
>> then two of us probably won't get around to it.
> 
> The GT-series use a totally different wire protocol from the earlier 
> non-GT VFDs.  Huanyang's manuals calls both protocols "Modbus", but the 
> older non-GT VFD protocol is definitely not Modbus, it's some unique 
> protocol Huanyang made up.  It was reverse engineered by someone named 
> "scotta" on CNC Zone, for which we owe a debt of gratitude.
> 
> The Huanyang GT-series VFDs implement Modbus correctly, so they will be 
> much easier to write a driver for.
> 
> The VFD we got unfortunately lacked the switch on the circuit board that 
> enables Modbus ("SW1"), instead it had a jumper wire there disabling 
> Modbus.  Wat.  After communicating with Huanyang we desoldered this 
> jumper wire and soldered it back in the "enable Modbus" position, and 
> that got it communicating.
> 
> So now it's just a small matter of programming, and writing some docs on 
> how to modify the hardware to allow it to communicate via Modbus.  I 
> should have something ready for testing in a few weeks.
> 
> Those Huanyang VFDs sure are inexpensive, but they're also the most 
> wonky and obstinate VFDs I've ever worked with.
> 
> 



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Re: [Emc-users] VFD recommendations - braking resistor vs mechanical brake.

[dragon]

Ed Fanta does rigid tapping on his CHNC. I don't believe that he has a
breaking resistor on the VFD even. IIRC I watched the output of the
SPINx1 and it just goes from a + voltage to a - voltage and does not
"stop" he does have a fairly high line count BEI(?) encoder on the spindle.

It works very well for him and he taps at surprisingly high spindle speeds!

On 02/02/2017 09:29 AM, Jim Craig wrote:
> On 2/2/2017 9:13 AM, John Thornton wrote:
>> I also have an Automation Direct GS2 on my BP knee mill and rigid tap
>> with it (need the braking resistor).
>>
>> JT
> John,
> 
> That is an interesting point. I am getting ready to add gear tooth 
> sensors on the bull gear so I can rigid tap. I don't have a braking 
> resistor on my drive. Currently the mechanical spindle brake engages 
> when the spindle stops via a pneumatic cylinder. To be honest I am not 
> sure if it would engage during a spindle reversal as I don't do that 
> currently. It probably would not. Does the rigid tapping cycle stop the 
> spindle or does it do a reversal without stopping? M3 M5 M4 M5 or M3 M4 M5?
> 
> I figured that the drag from tapping would stop the spindle pretty 
> quickly without the resistor. I would like to hear more about your 
> experience with this situation.
> 
> Thanks,
> 
> Jim
> 
> 
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Re: [Emc-users] Tida_TD-1336_lathe

[dragon]

Kirk,

I forgot to mention that I read somewhere online that it is actually
common for the back gears to get broken on these lathes. It comes from
user error. There is a threaded pin on one of the spindle gears that you
need to engage and disengage. If you keep it engaged while you have the
backgear also engaged both the belt and backgear try to drive the
spindle shaft. That of course does not end well.

While it is no longer produced, Grizzly still has the manual available
for the model G9249 lathe. It is of very similar design.



On 02/02/2017 04:50 AM, andy pugh wrote:
> On 2 February 2017 at 04:03, Kirk Wallace  wrote:
>> http://www.wallacecompany.com/old_lathe/
> 
> Is there any makers name anywhere? The tailstock is rather
> distinctive, but you could spend a long time on lathes.co.uk looking
> for a match.
> 
> it ought to be relatively easy to press new (steel) gears on to
> replace the broken back-gears.
> 



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Re: [Emc-users] VFD recommendations

[dragon]

I did notice those on ebay and had seen that there was a driver for
them. The price is very tempting. Especially since these are not mission
critical or production machines.

On 02/02/2017 04:27 AM, andy pugh wrote:
> On 2 February 2017 at 02:35, dragon <tfishw...@gmail.com> wrote:
>> Are there any drawbacks to using MODBUS instead of the usual analog 10v
>> interface?
> 
> Response might not be quite so smooth during CSS facing cuts with a
> lathe. I _think_ I can hear the speed changing in finite steps.
> However the increased information about the drive makes up for it, I
> think. (Such as a direct spindle-at-speed pin)
> 
> If choosing to use Modbus, perhaps concentrate on those VFDs with a
> dedicated driver.
> 
> I am using a typical eBay HuangYang VFD on the lathe, and it works
> nicely with the HAL module (even though it isn't _actually_ real
> modbus, or so I have heard)
> Some eBay adverts make a point of stressing that they are selling
> genuine HuangYang, not fake HuangYang.
> 



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[Emc-users] VFD recommendations

[dragon]

I want to start looking for VFDs for my lathe and mill conversions. I
have two 2hp 3 phase motors to use for the spindles. Of course if I came
across a 3hp for the lathe some day it might get upgraded.

Are there any drawbacks to using MODBUS instead of the usual analog 10v
interface?

Does anyone have suggestions for particular brands or models of VFD? I
have worked with several Hitachi and one Toshiba VFD but that is all.
Remember that these are home/hobby machines and I do need to try to keep
costs down, but I don't want to be penny wise and pound foolish either.

Thanks!



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Re: [Emc-users] Tida_TD-1336_lathe

[dragon]

Kirk,

You have a big brother of the lathe that followed me home! It literally
followed me on a trailer ;) Your's does look in rough shape.

It is a 1979 Jet 1024P made in Taiwan. It came with a companion, a 1980
Jet JVM-626 benchtop knee mill. While old and definitely used, mine were
very well cared for. I even got a bunch of the paperwork and the
original tools and tool boxes. They both have 1.5hp spindle motors. The
mill came with a 5" riser, 4" Kurt and an 8" rotary table that I plan to
turn into an A-axis. The lathe came with steady rest, 3-jaw, faceplate,
and a spare chuck backing plate.

My plans for the lathe...
- leave the apron on for a bit of extra mass and put ballnut inside
- 3 phase motor and VFD combo
- ditch spindle belt engagement system
- ditch the belt drive counter shaft if possible
- remove the compound
- T-slot plate for top of cross slide to allow gang tooling
- remove power feed/threading gearbox on headstock
- remove all of the threading gear train under the left cover and add
encoder for threading

I have scrounged or found cheap the following parts so far...
- E661 servo motors with encoders
- 30A@60v output transformers
- rectifiers and capacitors
- a couple of almost new 2hp 3 phase motors (free on CL)
- ballscrews for the knee and Y on the mill
- ~750 lbs. chunk of granite to mount the lathe on

Does anyone have a suggestion for somewhere to host the build/conversion
progress and post pictures?

-Todd



On 01/31/2017 05:37 PM, Kirk Wallace wrote:
> A lathe showed up on my doorstep (almost). A friend called up and said
> "I've got a lathe in my trailer and I want to know if I can bring it by
> today." I guess he knows me well enough to know that I could not refuse.
> I have had it a couple of days and I took some time to scrape the first
> layer of grime off of it and take some pictures.
> http://wallacecompany.com/machine_shop/Tida_Samson_TD-1336_lathe/
> 
> One of the control panels indicates it is a Samson TD-1336 (13" x 36")
> and that it was made in Taiwan in 1982. It looks like a common Chinese 
> lathe offered by Grizzly or Harbor Freight. It doesn't have a lot of 
> wear, but has been abused. The back gears are stripped, the cross slide 
> has been crashed into, the spindle and chuck have been hammered on 
> extensively.
> 
> It's too early to have a firm plan for this machine, but I'm thinking
> that I would like to convert it to:
> - 2hp 3 phase motor, VFD, belt drive, encoder (remove everything down to 
> the spindle shaft)
> - Servo, ballscrew and encoder for Z (remove change gear and feed
> drives)
> - Servo, ballscrew and encoder for X (remove cross slide and apron)
> - replace missing tail stock
> - regrind spindle D1-4 surfaces
> - regrind chuck surfaces
> - maybe replace spindle bearings if they show hammering damage
> - of course add LinuxCNC controller
> 
> 
> 



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Re: [Emc-users] Voltage/Motor RPM Relationship with Brushless Drives

[dragon]

Steve,

From my, albeit somewhat limited, experience I don't think that you will
be that happy with the performance of running the drives at that
voltage. I have some experience with running brushed motors at just over
half voltage and then later going to full voltage on the same machines.
Running with a maximum of 80v means a 37% drop in voltage. The biggest
place that I think you would see it is in poor acceleration and
deceleration. You would likely be limited to about 1/3 the IPM that you
would running full voltage because you need to have enough reserve to
decelerate without causing a following error. This might be even worse
with a brushless but I just don't have experience with them.

You could certainly try with those amps while you look around for
different ones. You won't hurt the motors.



On 01/25/2017 06:10 AM, Steve from Tube Gauge wrote:
> Hi:
>  
> I have a CNC mill that I am considering replacing the control with LinuxCNC.  
> The motors are the red cap Fanuc units.  I have enquired on this mailing list 
> about using the existing servo amps and motors.  From all the replies and 
> help (thank you very much)  I haved concluded that a good solution for me is 
> to remove the Fanuc encoders and amps  and replace them with suitable units 
> that can communicate on an industry standard format.  To that end I am 
> considering using some AMT31 programmable encoders by CUI (or other encoder 
> suitable for 8 pole motors) and some BE40A8 AMC amps that I have sitting on 
> my shelf. 
>  
> I am aware of the rpm/voltage relationship with brush DC motors.  Generally, 
> as the voltage rises the motor rpm increases a proportional amount.  How does 
> the voltage influence the performance of the brushless motor?  The Fanuc 
> motors are 5S models, 126 V (DC?), 5.8A stall.  The BE40A8 have a maximum 
> running voltage of 80 VDC.  Will running the motors at the lower voltage 
> result in dramatically reduced performance?  Will it cause other electrical 
> problems like an excessive rise in current demand by the motor?
>  
> Thanks for your help - Steve V
> 
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Re: [Emc-users] nema 24 motors.

[dragon]

Andy... you must need a lot of reduction for that one :P Is your Z
ballscrew floating on the far end?

Danny... usually you see a toothed (timing) belt as they have no
backlash and are inexpensive. Then you can set whatever reduction you
need by changing the ratios. If the servos are big enough or the load
small enough they can be direct drive depending on your system voltage.


On 01/24/2017 10:03 AM, dan...@austin.rr.com wrote:
> Don't servos need a lot of reduction to get the torque up?  Gearboxes always 
> bring backlash into the system.  Low backlash boxes are lots of $$$.
> 
> 
> 
> Danny
> 
>  dragon <tfishw...@gmail.com> wrote: 
>> I hate to say it but I'm with Ed on this one. I just paid $32 each for
>> e661 servos WITH encoders to put on my 10x24 lathe and Jet 626 mill.
>> Grab a free thrown out PC and get rid of the noise problems from that
>> SPI bus on the rPi. Analog input drives can be had on ebay for $35,
>> especially if you run under 80vDC. With my 96v supply I hope to be up
>> around 150ipm.
>>
>> While 3 phase steppers are MUCH better than two phase for all of the
>> reasons that Danny listed, you can spend the same amount or less for a
>> servo setup if you don't mind some used components.
>>
>> After having worked with both, I knew that I wouldn't be happy with a
>> stepper system even for my little home machines.
>>
>> Just my opinion...
>>
>> On 01/24/2017 08:49 AM, Ed wrote:
>>> On 01/23/2017 11:45 PM, Gene Heskett wrote:
>>>> Greetings all;
>>>>
>>>> I see some "Nema 24" motors at quite reasonable prices showing up on
>>>> fleabay,
>>>
>>> SNIP
>>>> Now, I don't believe this is going to help with the resonance stalls I am
>>>> getting at about 30 ipm, so I'm thinking of building a viscous damper to
>>>> fit on the rear of this puppy.  But unlike the ones on my hf micromill,
>>>> which are long steel spools carrying a 2+ inch stack of heavy fender
>>>> washers with elastomer sheets between the washers, which are true shock
>>>> absorbers as the resonance is killed by the frictional losses as the
>>>> washers walk on the talcum covered elastomer, but I don't have room for
>>>> a 2+" stack of fender washers in this spot. 5/8" axially at best.
>>>
>>> SNIP
>>>> Cheers, Gene Heskett
>>>
>>>
>>> RANT MODE ON
>>>
>>> Why in this day of cheap encoders, small ebay servo motors, and good 
>>> inexpensive servo drives does any one even use stepper motors?
>>>
>>> Dampers, resonance issues, lost steps, stalls, only 30 IPM? Why?
>>>
>>> Gene, don't stay on the dark side! Go to servo's and don't look back, 
>>> you will never regret it.
>>>
>>> RANT MODE OFF
>>>
>>> deflates-
>>>
>>> Ed.
>>>
>>>
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>>
> 
> 
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Re: [Emc-users] nema 24 motors.

[dragon]

I hate to say it but I'm with Ed on this one. I just paid $32 each for
e661 servos WITH encoders to put on my 10x24 lathe and Jet 626 mill.
Grab a free thrown out PC and get rid of the noise problems from that
SPI bus on the rPi. Analog input drives can be had on ebay for $35,
especially if you run under 80vDC. With my 96v supply I hope to be up
around 150ipm.

While 3 phase steppers are MUCH better than two phase for all of the
reasons that Danny listed, you can spend the same amount or less for a
servo setup if you don't mind some used components.

After having worked with both, I knew that I wouldn't be happy with a
stepper system even for my little home machines.

Just my opinion...

On 01/24/2017 08:49 AM, Ed wrote:
> On 01/23/2017 11:45 PM, Gene Heskett wrote:
>> Greetings all;
>>
>> I see some "Nema 24" motors at quite reasonable prices showing up on
>> fleabay,
> 
> SNIP
>> Now, I don't believe this is going to help with the resonance stalls I am
>> getting at about 30 ipm, so I'm thinking of building a viscous damper to
>> fit on the rear of this puppy.  But unlike the ones on my hf micromill,
>> which are long steel spools carrying a 2+ inch stack of heavy fender
>> washers with elastomer sheets between the washers, which are true shock
>> absorbers as the resonance is killed by the frictional losses as the
>> washers walk on the talcum covered elastomer, but I don't have room for
>> a 2+" stack of fender washers in this spot. 5/8" axially at best.
> 
> SNIP
>> Cheers, Gene Heskett
> 
> 
> RANT MODE ON
> 
> Why in this day of cheap encoders, small ebay servo motors, and good 
> inexpensive servo drives does any one even use stepper motors?
> 
> Dampers, resonance issues, lost steps, stalls, only 30 IPM? Why?
> 
> Gene, don't stay on the dark side! Go to servo's and don't look back, 
> you will never regret it.
> 
> RANT MODE OFF
> 
> deflates-
> 
> Ed.
> 
> 
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[Emc-users] Electrocraft e240 specs

[dragon]

I am converting over a little 10x24 lathe and benchtop knee mill. These
are just machines for home/hobby use to they don't need to be blazingly
fast or run for 16hrs. a day.

I got some e661 DC servos for the mill X,Y, and Z and for the Z on the
lathe. I was thinking of something smaller though for the X axis on the
lathe and to put on my little 8" rotary table. There are a pile of cheap
e240 servos with encoders on ebay right now. I have tried to find specs,
but have found conflicting info as to them being 45V or 60V etc.

My power supply transformers have 60V secondaries, but also have 20V and
40V taps so I could always add another rectifier and capacitor bank if
needed.

Does anyone know of a way to find out what the specs are for a
particular motor part number in this series? Or do you have other
suggestions for a better suited servo that won't break the bank?

Thanks!



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Re: [Emc-users] update from 2.8 pre ja9 to latest on ubuntu 10.04 ... pyton3 problem??

[dragon]

I would say likely not since Ubuntu 10.04 has a much older build tool
stack and the kernel, GCC, python, support libraries, etc. are all much
older.


On 10/28/2016 08:09 AM, giorgio foga wrote:
> Thanks a lot  but is possible to upgrade via builbot whitout problem.
> 
>  regards
> 
> Giorgio
> 
> 
> 
> Da: Jeff Epler 
> Inviato: venerdì 28 ottobre 2016 14.11
> A: Enhanced Machine Controller (EMC)
> Oggetto: Re: [Emc-users] update from 2.8 pre ja9 to latest on ubuntu 10.04 
> ... pyton3 problem??
> 
> The master branch does not support Ubuntu 10.04.
> 
> This was proposed over a year ago and no developers offered to maintain the
> build on 10.04.
> 
> https://www.mail-archive.com/emc-developers@lists.sourceforge.net/msg15177.html
> 
> Jeff
> 
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Re: [Emc-users] LinuxCNC and a Consumer Product

[dragon]

The Allwinner H3 is a quad core ARM processor... not intel. While the
orange Pi claims 100% compatibility with the raspberry Pi add-ons there
are reports of a few incompatibilities. Also note that it does have a
different graphics core and I think a different ethernet core as well
and not all of the Raspberry Pi linux images will work on the Orange Pi
because of that.

Allwinner likes to disregard intellectual property laws and the GPL in
specific so I personally try to stay away from devices that run their SoCs.



On 10/25/2016 11:11 PM, Gene Heskett wrote:
> On Tuesday 25 October 2016 23:07:55 bari wrote:
> 
>> @Gene
>>
>> Not sure how well SPI works on the Orange Pi. Since you've decided on
>> the 7i90HD with SPI why don't use use the Rpiwith it?
>>
>> Orange Pi board,  Ethernet > 7i92, hm2_ethdriver
>>
>>
>> Rpi board, SPI >7i90, hm2_raspi driver
> 
> This is touted to be 100% compatible with R-Pi stuff. But has an 
> allwinner H3 brain, so it runs on intel code, not arm. Its all ordered 
> now Bari, so we'll find out I guess.
> 
> 
>> On 10/25/2016 08:52 PM, Gene Heskett wrote:
>>> On Tuesday 25 October 2016 21:03:51 W. Martinjak wrote:
 On 2016-10-25 23:10, Kirk Wallace wrote:
> So, I'm back to piecing together some sort of beagleduino
> thing if I want a pad class controller.

 OK, then let me promote my hm2_raspi driver.

 https://forum.linuxcnc.org/27-driver-boards/31753-raspberry-pi-and-
 mes a-7i90-spi-works-well#82070

 You may be interested.

 Ok,ok, I'm not unselfish because I need some testers.
>>>
>>> I am on board, 7i90HD ordered, now where was that $15 Orange pi? I
>>> have lost it in the noise.
>>>
 Matsche
>>>
>>> Cheers, Gene Heskett
>>
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> 
> Cheers, Gene Heskett
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[Emc-users] It was a great LinuxCNC Fest!

[dragon]

Just wanted to send out a big thanks to Stuart and the rest of the Helix
Machine team for hosting us. I would also like to thank all of the other
attendees for the knowledge and patience that they shared. I learned a
lot and look forward to next year.

-Todd



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