Re: [Emc-users] ConFusion 360

[Chris Albertson]

The problem is not with Linux itself but with the way the programs are
distributed.   Almost all software depends on a LOT of external libraries
and these, in turn, depend on others.   And worse they depend on some
version of the library. Linux distributions come with many of these
libraries pre-installed.  If I compile a program in my Ubuntu 18.04 system
then the binary executable I have depends on the set of libraries found on
Ubuntu 18.04 systems.

In the "old days" of Linux on one would distribute a binary executable
because it would depend on a specif set of library software.They would
distribute source code.But today Linux is used by less sophisticated
users would don't know how to follow instal instruction that reads "Edit
the Makefile as required then Make, Make install"  If your users can follow
instructions like that then your Linux software is universally compatible,
possibly even into non-Linux systems.  But today the majority of users
can't do that.

The problem is how to distribute software to non-technical Linux users.
This CAN BE DONE but mostly it is not done because the developer has to
work harder and itis easier for him to simply compile several executables
and make them all available.

Apple solved this problem on Macs by distributing software in the form of
an "App Bundle"  Every last file needed to run an app is inside the bundle
and there is usually nothing to install other then copying the bundle to
the hard drive.   Linux ca do this too.e call these "app images"  and
some developers use the "app image".

The other way I see this done is to distribute the app as a Docker Image.
This is really the same idea.  The image contains ALL the files needed.

IN the past if I got some UNIX-like software it was NEVER an executable
binary and I would have to build it for SunOS, Or SiliconGraphis or Linux
but it would actually run on any system, even non-Linux.

If you want you Linux based software to run on any machine simply
distribute inside a container that includes the dependencies.  Some
containers hold even the entire operating system, some contain just a few
unusual libraries and the smallest container would be the executable binary.




On Tue, Mar 26, 2019 at 4:29 AM andy pugh  wrote:

> On Tue, 26 Mar 2019 at 04:11, Rafael Skodlar  wrote:
>
> > OK, so if you are a software developer, I respect your trade. I assume
> > you are making money. Great. If you ported that program to Linux then
> > perhaps you could sell to different crowd and brag about it also.
>
> He is the author of SheetCAM.
> He _does_ have a version for Linux.
>
> https://www.sheetcam.com/downloads (See "SheetCAM TNG For Linux")
>
> So I would tend to assume that  knows what he is talking about.
>
> I used to be able to run games written for the Motorola 68k on an
> Intel Mac (probably with an intermediate conversion to PowerPC).
> Linux deinitely does not have that level of binary compatibility. Will
> the Ubuntu LinuxCNC binaries run on Debian, even?
>
> --
> atp
> "A motorcycle is a bicycle with a pandemonium attachment and is
> designed for the especial use of mechanical geniuses, daredevils and
> lunatics."
> — George Fitch, Atlanta Constitution Newspaper, 1916
>
>
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Re: [Emc-users] ConFusion 360

[andy pugh]

On Tue, 26 Mar 2019 at 04:11, Rafael Skodlar  wrote:

> OK, so if you are a software developer, I respect your trade. I assume
> you are making money. Great. If you ported that program to Linux then
> perhaps you could sell to different crowd and brag about it also.

He is the author of SheetCAM.
He _does_ have a version for Linux.

https://www.sheetcam.com/downloads (See "SheetCAM TNG For Linux")

So I would tend to assume that  knows what he is talking about.

I used to be able to run games written for the Motorola 68k on an
Intel Mac (probably with an intermediate conversion to PowerPC).
Linux deinitely does not have that level of binary compatibility. Will
the Ubuntu LinuxCNC binaries run on Debian, even?

-- 
atp
"A motorcycle is a bicycle with a pandemonium attachment and is
designed for the especial use of mechanical geniuses, daredevils and
lunatics."
— George Fitch, Atlanta Constitution Newspaper, 1916


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Re: [Emc-users] ConFusion 360

[Chris Albertson]

On Mon, Mar 25, 2019 at 9:11 PM Rafael Skodlar  wrote:

> On 3/25/19 4:01 AM, Les Newell wrote:
> >
> >> Is this a mailing list about LinuxCNC or windows crap?!
>

Both, I think.It is pretty clear that to use CNC you need some kind of
design software (or stay with very simple designs that can be hand coded)
and the best, profesional level design software seems to be Windows or Mac
based.

In any case, it was pointed out that Fusion 360 runs on Wine.   That
basically means it runs on Linux with no need to install Windows.

Then in another thread, I suggested moving all real-time code to a uP.
This would meen there would no longer be a need for RT Linux and even for
Linux.   The reaming code might run on Windows.   If it did, interrest in
LiuxCNC would explode.

-- 

Chris Albertson
Redondo Beach, California

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Re: [Emc-users] ConFusion 360

[Rafael Skodlar]

On 3/25/19 4:01 AM, Les Newell wrote:


Is this a mailing list about LinuxCNC or windows crap?! 


Someone asked why there isn't a Linux version of Fusion and I explained 
some of the technical reasons why.


I run "stock trading app" written in Java on Linux just fine. It's 
obvious the app is  mostly focused on Windows. It's very poorly 
designed based on what I see in html files, config, and logs because 
windows is their development platform but it still runs on Linux. I 
see people complaining about windows crashes on it's chat channel many 
times. Lost trade is a losing trade.


Java has a lot of overhead and is not a practical language for processor 
intensive work such as 3D CAD. There are very good reasons why very few 
mainstream PC applications are written in Java. As far as your stock 
trading app being buggy, that is down to the software developers, not 
the OS.


I did not say write CNC program in Java. It's portable language that 
happens to work on different platforms just like python.




and Mac have consistent libraries. I can take a binary that was 
written for Win2K and run it on Win10. Conversely I can build a 
program in Win10 that will run on Win2K (within certain limits). 
Linux keeps changing and binary compatibility is lousy. If I build an 
application on a current 


Extreme bull!


No. Fact. If you don't believe me download a copy of SheetCam TNG from 
my website. The copies on the site were built a few months ago on Win10. 


See, you did not read what I wrote or tried to say. "... within certain 
limits ..." ahhh?


I said that I do not have a single machine, including VMs, at home 
running crap. My position is based on facts, i.e. experience over years 
as a solo sysadmin where I had to deal with 4 different versions of 
Unix, MAN, and DOS/Windows PCs or listening to others complaining about 
complete lockups after "antivirus updates" and such. Downtime = lost $$$.


They will run just fine on Win2K. Yes, I do test compatibility with 
operating systems this old. Download the very old version of SheetCam 
Standard I keep to support old users (built on XP if I remember 
correctly) and it will still run on Win10.


OK, so if you are a software developer, I respect your trade. I assume 
you are making money. Great. If you ported that program to Linux then 
perhaps you could sell to different crowd and brag about it also.


I'm not in "metalwork business" but do work on hobby projects that 
require me to spin up lathe or turn on a mill. Nothing professional mind 
you. A CNC would help me speedup some projects I have in mind and that's 
why LinuxCNC is appealing to me.


version of Linux it won't run on a distro that is even a few years 
older. An app built on Ubuntu probably won't work properly on Fedora. 
There are tricks to mitigate these issues but they all involve lots 
of work and don't provide a reliable solution.


Unbelievable what speculations I have to read these days. 


Again not speculation. I've invested hundreds of hours working on this 


That's how it sounds. I used numerous programs that were originally 
written on one Linux distribution that was different from my favorite 
ubuntu. Takes some effort and it usually works after a bit of effort.



and testing different solutions. Can you show me any proof that I am wrong?

Les


Many discussions on mailing lists end up nowhere because it's fruitless 
to argue who's right and who's not. I just don't see a point about 
pushing software written for one platform only if it's on unrelated 
mailing list.


--
Rafael Skodlar


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Re: [Emc-users] ConFusion 360

[Les Newell]

Is this a mailing list about LinuxCNC or windows crap?! 


Someone asked why there isn't a Linux version of Fusion and I explained 
some of the technical reasons why.


I run "stock trading app" written in Java on Linux just fine. It's 
obvious the app is  mostly focused on Windows. It's very poorly 
designed based on what I see in html files, config, and logs because 
windows is their development platform but it still runs on Linux. I 
see people complaining about windows crashes on it's chat channel many 
times. Lost trade is a losing trade.


Java has a lot of overhead and is not a practical language for processor 
intensive work such as 3D CAD. There are very good reasons why very few 
mainstream PC applications are written in Java. As far as your stock 
trading app being buggy, that is down to the software developers, not 
the OS.




and Mac have consistent libraries. I can take a binary that was 
written for Win2K and run it on Win10. Conversely I can build a 
program in Win10 that will run on Win2K (within certain limits). 
Linux keeps changing and binary compatibility is lousy. If I build an 
application on a current 


Extreme bull!


No. Fact. If you don't believe me download a copy of SheetCam TNG from 
my website. The copies on the site were built a few months ago on Win10. 
They will run just fine on Win2K. Yes, I do test compatibility with 
operating systems this old. Download the very old version of SheetCam 
Standard I keep to support old users (built on XP if I remember 
correctly) and it will still run on Win10.




version of Linux it won't run on a distro that is even a few years 
older. An app built on Ubuntu probably won't work properly on Fedora. 
There are tricks to mitigate these issues but they all involve lots 
of work and don't provide a reliable solution.


Unbelievable what speculations I have to read these days. 


Again not speculation. I've invested hundreds of hours working on this 
and testing different solutions. Can you show me any proof that I am wrong?


Les


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Re: [Emc-users] ConFusion 360

[Jon Elson]

On 03/24/2019 07:14 PM, andy pugh wrote:

On Mon, 25 Mar 2019 at 00:06, Chris Albertson  wrote:


There is another way to run Fusion without Windows that works even better.
Run it on MacOS.  I have  27" iMac.

That's been my solution. In fact I actually do the majority of my
_LinuxCNC_ development sat at the Mac, using a combination of VMs and
SSH.
I like the silence and the screen space. (My LinuxCNC dev system makes
a horrible buzzing noise, but it was cheap)

Dell commercial systems are pretty quiet.  I have a bunch of 
Optiplex systems of various vintages.
I'm not sure what is making all the racket in my computer 
room, but it isn't the desktop machines.


Jon


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Re: [Emc-users] ConFusion 360

[Gene Heskett]

On Sunday 24 March 2019 19:58:31 Martin Dobbins wrote:

> 
>
> Well if it's going to put some money in Gene's pocket, I'm all for it
> 
>
I would be happy too, except what most folks want me to do when they find 
out I have the machinery involves a class 3 FFL, $500 a year, so thats a 
bridge I only cross working on my own stuff.

In the meantime, I'm a hobbiest, making stuff just because I can.  And 
the medium can be Maple, Cherry, Mahogany, Walnut or Butternut or even 
OSB as easily as it might be alu, cold roll, brass or even A2.

OSB is fugly stuff though. Not to mention that glue is hell on tooling.  
Worse even than plywood.

But I saw an eagle pattern for over a houses front door that this 6040 is 
about big enough to make, so once its making chips, might be a project I 
might be able to sell a few of locally. Something that image-to-gcode 
might be able to both scale up to fit the machine, and do it at bragging 
resolution. I think that would be pretty neat in a couple hundred bucks 
worth of birdseye or curly/fiddleback maple, or some pretty ray-flaked 
quarter sawn white oak or ash thats been inside & stickered for 10+ 
years, well dried.

First one of course goes over my front door as advertising. :)

> Martin
> 
> From: andy pugh
>
> On Sun, 24 Mar 2019 at 23:28, Martin Dobbins  wrote:
> > Maybe one day Fusion 360 will be browser based and therefore not
> > choosy about OS?
>
> They tried that, it wasn't a raging success.
>
> And you can guarantee that it would cash Gene's Firefox. :-)
>
> --
> atp
> "A motorcycle is a bicycle with a pandemonium attachment and is
> designed for the especial use of mechanical geniuses, daredevils and
> lunatics."
> — George Fitch, Atlanta Constitution Newspaper, 1916
>
>
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Cheers, Gene Heskett
-- 
"There are four boxes to be used in defense of liberty:
 soap, ballot, jury, and ammo. Please use in that order."
-Ed Howdershelt (Author)
Genes Web page 



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Re: [Emc-users] ConFusion 360

[Chris Albertson]

On Sun, Mar 24, 2019 at 5:15 PM andy pugh  wrote:

> On Mon, 25 Mar 2019 at 00:06, Chris Albertson 
> wrote:
>
> > There is another way to run Fusion without Windows that works even
> better.
> > Run it on MacOS.  I have  27" iMac.
>
> That's been my solution. In fact I actually do the majority of my
> _LinuxCNC_ development sat at the Mac, using a combination of VMs and
> SSH.
> I like the silence and the screen space. (My LinuxCNC dev system makes
> a horrible buzzing noise, but it was cheap)
>

Same here, have a nice Linux system with 16-core xeon  64GB of ECC RAM and
Nvidia GPU for runing machine learning.   I'm working on motion path
planning
around moving obstacles,  Like how to move on a bussy sidewalk

 It runs headless, way off in a corner someplace.

I was a full time UNIX user before Linux was written then watched as Linux
started to displace UNIX.  I jumpped on Mac OS X early on because of
it' was built on a BSD base.

The last Windows I paid for was Windows 95.  After that I'd accept a dead
computer
with a still valid lincense key.There is now reason ever to BUY windows
as
so many valid copies are put in dumpsters





>
> --
> atp
> "A motorcycle is a bicycle with a pandemonium attachment and is
> designed for the especial use of mechanical geniuses, daredevils and
> lunatics."
> — George Fitch, Atlanta Constitution Newspaper, 1916
>
>
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Redondo Beach, California

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Re: [Emc-users] ConFusion 360 / Conversation code

[Chris Albertson]

It's kind of self-fulfilling.  You get 2.5 D jobs because you do 2.5 D
jobs.   If you could make the organic shape parts for a prosthetic hand you
would get jobs making the organic shape parts for a prosthetic hand.

My use of this is at best a hobby/business  I hope to pay for the tools I
use.  But what I noticed is that as I learn to do more things I actually
start doing more things.   That sounds almost silly but it is 100% true.

On Sun, Mar 24, 2019 at 4:07 PM Marshland Engineering <
marshl...@marshland.co.nz> wrote:

> A very interesting discussion. I have delved into Fusion 360 plus a number
> of
> other packages but I still revert back to Turbocad as it is quick and does
> what I want. All the work I get is 2.5D. If I was making assemblies, then
> 3D
> would be great but I make parts for companies and I normally just use the
> PDF
> and program my machine with conversational programming. Sometimes, I get a
> DXFs. Just done a $3000 order with no CAD or CAM package. The longest
> program
> I needed in my machine was 9 lines long. Probably took 5 minutes to hand
> program and test. (Forgot to take a photo of the finished parts.) As
> mentioned
> before, GCode runs every line and ends up being a lot of code. In the
> conversation mode, I use subroutines. I can drill 100 holes with 2 lines of
> code. If I want to change the feed rate, I only have to change one line.
>
>
> There are some very good engineers on this forum and I was wondering if any
> see any merit in making a system that runs conversation mode almost
> exclusively. Sure it will be able to run GCode, but conversational will be
> its
> main focus.
>
> As I have said before, to train someone to use conversation is really easy.
> This project is not for all types of work but I make a living out of making
> simple parts.
>
> If you are interested, email me off line and I'll take it from there.
>
> Cheers Wallace.
>
>
>
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Re: [Emc-users] ConFusion 360

[Gene Heskett]

On Sunday 24 March 2019 19:43:09 andy pugh wrote:

> On Sun, 24 Mar 2019 at 23:28, Martin Dobbins  wrote:
> > Maybe one day Fusion 360 will be browser based and therefore not
> > choosy about OS?
>
> They tried that, it wasn't a raging success.
>
> And you can guarantee that it would cash Gene's Firefox. :-)

If you meant cRash, yes, absolutely & without a doubt.

Cheers, Gene Heskett
-- 
"There are four boxes to be used in defense of liberty:
 soap, ballot, jury, and ammo. Please use in that order."
-Ed Howdershelt (Author)
Genes Web page 



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Re: [Emc-users] ConFusion 360

[andy pugh]

On Mon, 25 Mar 2019 at 00:06, Chris Albertson  wrote:

> There is another way to run Fusion without Windows that works even better.
> Run it on MacOS.  I have  27" iMac.

That's been my solution. In fact I actually do the majority of my
_LinuxCNC_ development sat at the Mac, using a combination of VMs and
SSH.
I like the silence and the screen space. (My LinuxCNC dev system makes
a horrible buzzing noise, but it was cheap)

-- 
atp
"A motorcycle is a bicycle with a pandemonium attachment and is
designed for the especial use of mechanical geniuses, daredevils and
lunatics."
— George Fitch, Atlanta Constitution Newspaper, 1916


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Re: [Emc-users] ConFusion 360

[Chris Albertson]

Thanks, that saved me some time.I had wondered if Fusion 360 would run
under Wine.   Some software does, some do not.   You have to just try and
see.  It's good to know that it does.

I'd still worry a little about the graphics driver interface that Wine
presents.  Fusion like all 3D software needs a good high-end GPU.

There is another way to run Fusion without Windows that works even better.
Run it on MacOS.  I have  27" iMac.




On Sun, Mar 24, 2019 at 4:24 PM andy pugh  wrote:

> On Sat, 23 Mar 2019 at 19:45, Chris Albertson 
> wrote:
> >
> > Actually, Fusion already runs on a Linux machine, Make a VM with Window
> 10
> > in the Linux computer then put Fusion on the VM.
>
> You can do it without Windows at all.
>
>
> https://edmarhobby.blogspot.com/2019/03/running-fusion-360-in-linux-with-wine.html
>
> -


Chris Albertson
Redondo Beach, California

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Re: [Emc-users] ConFusion 360

[Martin Dobbins]

Well if it's going to put some money in Gene's pocket, I'm all for it 

Martin

From: andy pugh
On Sun, 24 Mar 2019 at 23:28, Martin Dobbins  wrote:
>
> Maybe one day Fusion 360 will be browser based and therefore not choosy about 
> OS?

They tried that, it wasn't a raging success.

And you can guarantee that it would cash Gene's Firefox. :-)

--
atp
"A motorcycle is a bicycle with a pandemonium attachment and is
designed for the especial use of mechanical geniuses, daredevils and
lunatics."
— George Fitch, Atlanta Constitution Newspaper, 1916


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Re: [Emc-users] ConFusion 360

[andy pugh]

On Sun, 24 Mar 2019 at 23:28, Martin Dobbins  wrote:
>
> Maybe one day Fusion 360 will be browser based and therefore not choosy about 
> OS?

They tried that, it wasn't a raging success.

And you can guarantee that it would cash Gene's Firefox. :-)

-- 
atp
"A motorcycle is a bicycle with a pandemonium attachment and is
designed for the especial use of mechanical geniuses, daredevils and
lunatics."
— George Fitch, Atlanta Constitution Newspaper, 1916


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Re: [Emc-users] ConFusion 360

[Martin Dobbins]

Sure, the way Microsoft has "educated" the world, people are only buying 
(leasing) their "OS" (or more likely buying a machine with their OS installed) 
because it runs a particular application they need or want to use.  MS DOS was 
something that they bought from somebody else inexpensively (it started off 
being QDOS, that name given by the guy who wrote it because it was a quick and 
dirty operating system, they lost the "Q" so it was then a MS dirty operating 
system)  The "genius" was the gui and the point and click interface that ran on 
top of DOS that put computers in every home and business.  Ask most average 
joes about computers and they're going to say Microsoft, or maybe Apple.  It's 
only the people that have been stung by MS business practices, security, disk 
fragmentation, ineptitude, etc. that actually think "is there something else?"

I like the idea of running windows in a VM ( I run it dual boot now), but it's 
going to need some horsepower to run Fusion 360, more than it would running 
natively.  If someone was going to invest in the hardware to do that, might as 
well buy a MAC (I would suggest a Windows PC, but most of those come with a 
bunch of bloatware which can be a pain/impossible to get removed).  Maybe one 
day Fusion 360 will be browser based and therefore not choosy about OS?

Martin




From: Chris Albertson

My claim about Windows from the beginning in the 1990's was that no one
ever bought Windows because they wanted to run Windows.   They bought it
because they wanted to run MS Office or some game or some other software
that requires Windows. Or, I guess another reason is they bought it
because it came pre-installed on some hardware they wanted.  But very few
people ever wanted just MS Windows

When Windows was new it actually was a kind of "shim" that went between the
application and DOS to provide a window and mouse interface.   Over time
they made it into an actual OS but still to this day its real use is just
way to run a certain class of graphical software.

Linux is a little different in that Linux is just the OS.The graphical
stuff you see is something added on and there are a half dozen popular
windowing systems in use over top of Linux (Android being #1) Apple's
Mac OS is kind of that way too.  It is a big layer over top of UNIX.If
would be good for Microsoft to split up Windows and make it a layer over a
base OS so we can choose each independently.   It might happen, don't know.

Today except for home users, itis very common to run virtualized instances
of Windows.   The virtual images an exist on a server and run on desktop
hardware and in this way the end user's Windows instance follows him to any
random desktop hs sits at.   Home users tend to use systems whwere the
hardware is tried more firmly to the software with software being install
on the local hard drive.   But virtualization is widely used in the
industry both for servers and desktops.

But runf this on top is UNIX is not so common are runing on top of a "bare
metal" viruralmachine,  these can be much lighter weight.   Microsoft's
"Azure" cloud service provides millions of vertual machines and they say at
least half of them run Linux.  Even Microsoft is now agnostic about OSes
and runs them in virtual hardware.



On Sun, Mar 24, 2019 at 12:49 PM  wrote:

> Indeed!  I've always said one should run Windows as an application in Unix
> as god intended ;-)
> -Tom
>
>
> > On Mar 23, 2019, at 11:35 PM, Chris Albertson 
> wrote:
> >
> > Almost all of this Windows BS goes away if you run Windows in a VM.
> The
> > easy and secure way to run Windows is to first install Linux (or use Mac
> OS
> > if on a Mac) and then a VM and then Windows.Then it does not need
> video
> > or wifi drivers and you can snapshot the new Windows 10 install and later
> > if/when the system is messed up.  click reset and get back to the last
> > snapshot.   You user data is likely on a file server so the reset will
> > correct any issues nearly instantly
>
>
>
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Re: [Emc-users] ConFusion 360 / Conversation code

[andy pugh]

On Sun, 24 Mar 2019 at 23:07, Marshland Engineering
 wrote:
>
> There are some very good engineers on this forum and I was wondering if any
> see any merit in making a system that runs conversation mode almost
> exclusively.

Is NativeCAM anywhere close?

-- 
atp
"A motorcycle is a bicycle with a pandemonium attachment and is
designed for the especial use of mechanical geniuses, daredevils and
lunatics."
— George Fitch, Atlanta Constitution Newspaper, 1916


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Re: [Emc-users] ConFusion 360

[andy pugh]

On Sat, 23 Mar 2019 at 19:45, Chris Albertson  wrote:
>
> Actually, Fusion already runs on a Linux machine, Make a VM with Window 10
> in the Linux computer then put Fusion on the VM.

You can do it without Windows at all.

https://edmarhobby.blogspot.com/2019/03/running-fusion-360-in-linux-with-wine.html

-- 
atp
"A motorcycle is a bicycle with a pandemonium attachment and is
designed for the especial use of mechanical geniuses, daredevils and
lunatics."
— George Fitch, Atlanta Constitution Newspaper, 1916


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Re: [Emc-users] ConFusion 360 / Conversation code

[Marshland Engineering]

A very interesting discussion. I have delved into Fusion 360 plus a number of
other packages but I still revert back to Turbocad as it is quick and does
what I want. All the work I get is 2.5D. If I was making assemblies, then 3D
would be great but I make parts for companies and I normally just use the PDF
and program my machine with conversational programming. Sometimes, I get a
DXFs. Just done a $3000 order with no CAD or CAM package. The longest program
I needed in my machine was 9 lines long. Probably took 5 minutes to hand
program and test. (Forgot to take a photo of the finished parts.) As mentioned
before, GCode runs every line and ends up being a lot of code. In the
conversation mode, I use subroutines. I can drill 100 holes with 2 lines of
code. If I want to change the feed rate, I only have to change one line.

There are some very good engineers on this forum and I was wondering if any
see any merit in making a system that runs conversation mode almost
exclusively. Sure it will be able to run GCode, but conversational will be its
main focus. 

As I have said before, to train someone to use conversation is really easy.
This project is not for all types of work but I make a living out of making
simple parts.

If you are interested, email me off line and I'll take it from there. 

Cheers Wallace. 



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Re: [Emc-users] ConFusion 360

[Gene Heskett]

On Sunday 24 March 2019 15:47:23 tom-...@bgp.nu wrote:

> Indeed!  I've always said one should run Windows as an application in
> Unix as god intended ;-) -Tom
>
> > On Mar 23, 2019, at 11:35 PM, Chris Albertson
> >  wrote:
> >
> > Almost all of this Windows BS goes away if you run Windows in a VM. 
> >   The easy and secure way to run Windows is to first install Linux
> > (or use Mac OS if on a Mac) and then a VM and then Windows.Then
> > it does not need video or wifi drivers and you can snapshot the new
> > Windows 10 install and later if/when the system is messed up.  click
> > reset and get back to the last snapshot.   You user data is likely
> > on a file server so the reset will correct any issues nearly
> > instantly
>
Which makes windows a little less distastefull. But Bill Gates is going 
to have to personally apologize to me for his phone people calling me a 
pirate for wanting a copy of ntfs 3.51's main library, which their own 
damned housekeeping deleted from an otherwise secured hard drive in a 
locked at night closet. That put our comm channel to CBS out of business 
and cost us a few thou before it was cleaned up.  I wound taking the 
drive out, packing it up in a static bag and half a pound of ghost 
turds, and overnight fedexing it to CBS, who checked the drive, found it 
healthy, and re-imaged it from one of their machines and fedexed it back 
to me. To this day, and I've heard a couple similar stories, I think 
ntfs 3.51 ($499 at the time) had a random timer set to run 2 or 3 years, 
then kill the os so you had to buy a new copy.

But I will not forgive M$ for calling me a pirate when I tried to argue 
for just that file to be sent out on a floppy so I could fix it.  Screw 
M$ and the camel that rode in on them.

So now you know the rest of the story behind my outsized hatred of things 
M$.  And this happened before I ever made my first linux install in '98 
on a 400Mhz AMD K6 cpu.  Fastest machine in the building then.  That was 
a breath of fresh spring air compared to what I seeing our sales people 
putting up with trying to do business with 3.1 or the new w95 of the 
day. Even then they were virus magnets.

Cheers, Gene Heskett
-- 
"There are four boxes to be used in defense of liberty:
 soap, ballot, jury, and ammo. Please use in that order."
-Ed Howdershelt (Author)
Genes Web page 



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Re: [Emc-users] ConFusion 360

[Chris Albertson]

My claim about Windows from the beginning in the 1990's was that no one
ever bought Windows because they wanted to run Windows.   They bought it
because they wanted to run MS Office or some game or some other software
that requires Windows. Or, I guess another reason is they bought it
because it came pre-installed on some hardware they wanted.  But very few
people ever wanted just MS Windows

When Windows was new it actually was a kind of "shim" that went between the
application and DOS to provide a window and mouse interface.   Over time
they made it into an actual OS but still to this day its real use is just
way to run a certain class of graphical software.

Linux is a little different in that Linux is just the OS.The graphical
stuff you see is something added on and there are a half dozen popular
windowing systems in use over top of Linux (Android being #1) Apple's
Mac OS is kind of that way too.  It is a big layer over top of UNIX.If
would be good for Microsoft to split up Windows and make it a layer over a
base OS so we can choose each independently.   It might happen, don't know.

Today except for home users, itis very common to run virtualized instances
of Windows.   The virtual images an exist on a server and run on desktop
hardware and in this way the end user's Windows instance follows him to any
random desktop hs sits at.   Home users tend to use systems whwere the
hardware is tried more firmly to the software with software being install
on the local hard drive.   But virtualization is widely used in the
industry both for servers and desktops.

But runf this on top is UNIX is not so common are runing on top of a "bare
metal" viruralmachine,  these can be much lighter weight.   Microsoft's
"Azure" cloud service provides millions of vertual machines and they say at
least half of them run Linux.  Even Microsoft is now agnostic about OSes
and runs them in virtual hardware.



On Sun, Mar 24, 2019 at 12:49 PM  wrote:

> Indeed!  I've always said one should run Windows as an application in Unix
> as god intended ;-)
> -Tom
>
>
> > On Mar 23, 2019, at 11:35 PM, Chris Albertson 
> wrote:
> >
> > Almost all of this Windows BS goes away if you run Windows in a VM.
> The
> > easy and secure way to run Windows is to first install Linux (or use Mac
> OS
> > if on a Mac) and then a VM and then Windows.Then it does not need
> video
> > or wifi drivers and you can snapshot the new Windows 10 install and later
> > if/when the system is messed up.  click reset and get back to the last
> > snapshot.   You user data is likely on a file server so the reset will
> > correct any issues nearly instantly
>
>
>
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>


-- 

Chris Albertson
Redondo Beach, California

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Re: [Emc-users] ConFusion 360

[tom-emc]

Indeed!  I've always said one should run Windows as an application in Unix as 
god intended ;-)
-Tom


> On Mar 23, 2019, at 11:35 PM, Chris Albertson  
> wrote:
> 
> Almost all of this Windows BS goes away if you run Windows in a VM.The
> easy and secure way to run Windows is to first install Linux (or use Mac OS
> if on a Mac) and then a VM and then Windows.Then it does not need video
> or wifi drivers and you can snapshot the new Windows 10 install and later
> if/when the system is messed up.  click reset and get back to the last
> snapshot.   You user data is likely on a file server so the reset will
> correct any issues nearly instantly



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Re: [Emc-users] ConFusion 360

[Chris Albertson]

Almost all of this Windows BS goes away if you run Windows in a VM.The
easy and secure way to run Windows is to first install Linux (or use Mac OS
if on a Mac) and then a VM and then Windows.Then it does not need video
or wifi drivers and you can snapshot the new Windows 10 install and later
if/when the system is messed up.  click reset and get back to the last
snapshot.   You user data is likely on a file server so the reset will
correct any issues nearly instantly

On Sat, Mar 23, 2019 at 4:13 PM Gregg Eshelman via Emc-users <
emc-users@lists.sourceforge.net> wrote:

> If you have Windows 7 or 8 installed you can upgrade for free. Find the
> gatherosstate.exe file on the Windows 10 disc or ISO. Copy it to the
> desktop and run it. Copy the genuineticket file it creates somewhere off
> the computer. Now you can erase the installed Windows and do a clean
> install of 10. It's easy to find where to copy the genuineticket file to
> make 10 self activate.
> Windows 10 will also directly accept many retail and OEM key codes for 7
> and 8.
> One recently introduced *gotcha* is starting with build 1607 of Windows
> 10, it's been deprecating older methods of driver signing, especially for
> video drivers. What happens is newer builds will allow the installer to run
> but will quietly block the driver files from installing. If you try to
> manually install the extracted files with Device Manager it will either lie
> to you with a claim of being unable to find the file it just found, or will
> BSOD.
> As of build 1809 there's a workaround. Install Build 1511 and all the
> drivers, then upgrade to any build from 1607 through 1809. That will allow
> the "insecure" drivers to stay. No word on if the new major build to be
> released later this year will still do that.
> There's a recently introduced bug in Windows 10 with some laptops. When
> returning from shutting off the display, sleeping, or hibernating, the
> screen is solid black except for the mouse pointer. The latest cumulative
> update for build 1809 addresses *some* of those issues but if you have an
> older laptop that shipped with Vista or 7 which has the black screen bug
> with build 1607 or later it may never get fixed. The workaround is to
> completely disable display off, sleep, and hibernate. I fixed up a Compaq
> NC8430 (shipped with 32bit Win7, I dropped in 4 gig, a 320 gig HD, and a
> Core 2 Duo to install Win 10 x64) that has this issue, along with having to
> do the 1511 then 1809 upgrade to get a proper video driver for the ATi
> Mobility Radeon X1600.
> Dunno why Microsoft cannot stop re-breaking things in Windows 10 after
> they've fixed them. The RTM release had major problems with a large number
> of laptop WiFi adapters. Took them almost a year to put out a fix, which
> they had to make available for direct download both for RTM and the first
> update build. Then Microsoft proceeded to re-break WiFi several more times
> until they seem to have decide to quit mucking about and leave it alone.
> On Saturday, March 23, 2019, 2:25:13 PM MDT, Chris Albertson <
> albertson.ch...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>  On Sat, Mar 23, 2019 at 12:56 PM andy pugh  wrote:
>
> > On Sat, 23 Mar 2019 at 19:45, Chris Albertson  >
> > wrote:
> > >
> > > Actually, Fusion already runs on a Linux machine, Make a VM with Window
> > 10
> > > in the Linux computer then put Fusion on the VM.
> >
> > But how much does a Windows 10 Licence cost? It seems to be around
> > £189 (for a full retail rathe than OEM version)
> >
>
> You can run Windows 10 for free and you don't need to pirate the software.
>   It's
> all above board.Yuo can install Windows 10 from the Microsoft website.
> then simply never "activate" it.The only real difference between an
> activated
> and unactivated Wondows 10 is cosmetic.  The system will now and then ask
> you to
> activate it.  But it continues to run jst fine.  Yuo even get all the
> software
> security and feature updatesI even have some cloud stoarage
> in Microft's system for One Note and some other data.
>
> Microsoft's policies have changed qute a lot with their new CEO.
>
> If you are willing to be slightly devious, Microsoft will give you a free
> activated
> copy of Windows 10 if you download it from their "accessibilty" web site.
> They make Win 10 acailable to those who are disabled but do not ask for
> proof or even
> ask if you are in fact disabled.  So you get it with out having to enter
> false information.
>
> Then of cousre you can be dishonest and us any of the ba-zillian cracked
> copies of Windows on the web.  But this is not legal even if it is common.
>
> Your best bet is simply to not activate.  Microsoft is fine with this, but
> they will nag you forever.
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> > --
> > atp
> > "A motorcycle is a bicycle with a pandemonium attachment and is
> > designed for the especial use of mechanical geniuses, daredevils and
> > lunatics."
> > — George Fitch, Atlanta Constitution Newspaper, 1916
> >
> >

Re: [Emc-users] ConFusion 360

[Rafael Skodlar]

Sorry Les,
but ...

On 3/23/19 1:37 PM, Les Newell wrote:

Hi Andy,

(Which is based on BSD, so a Linux port would be easy, if they chose 
to do it)


Porting closed  source code to Linux is very difficult to do. Windows 


Is this a mailing list about LinuxCNC or windows crap?! I run "stock 
trading app" written in Java on Linux just fine. It's obvious the app is 
 mostly focused on Windows. It's very poorly designed based on what I 
see in html files, config, and logs because windows is their development 
platform but it still runs on Linux. I see people complaining about 
windows crashes on it's chat channel many times. Lost trade is a losing 
trade.


and Mac have consistent libraries. I can take a binary that was written 
for Win2K and run it on Win10. Conversely I can build a program in Win10 
that will run on Win2K (within certain limits). Linux keeps changing and 
binary compatibility is lousy. If I build an application on a current 


Extreme bull!

version of Linux it won't run on a distro that is even a few years 
older. An app built on Ubuntu probably won't work properly on Fedora. 
There are tricks to mitigate these issues but they all involve lots of 
work and don't provide a reliable solution.


Les


Unbelievable what speculations I have to read these days. No wonder the 
latest diaper generation is so confused about anything. I see them 
coming out of school and what they think they know.


There's so little progress in computer science and anything else since 
1980's PC. The most notable difference is we virtualize that hardware in 
software and keep throwing more Intel like CPU cores and RAM at it these 
days. I see it every day at work. Just look at an icon on typical app 
for saving your work.


--
Rafael


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Re: [Emc-users] ConFusion 360

[Bruce Layne]

On 3/23/19 7:11 PM, Gregg Eshelman via Emc-users wrote:
> Dunno why Microsoft cannot stop re-breaking things in Windows 10 after 
> they've fixed them. The RTM release had major problems with a large number of 
> laptop WiFi adapters. Took them almost a year to put out a fix, which they 
> had to make available for direct download both for RTM and the first update 
> build. Then Microsoft proceeded to re-break WiFi several more times until 
> they seem to have decide to quit mucking about and leave it alone.

It can probably be traced back to the open source IP stack that Windows
stole from FreeBSD 20 years ago.   :-)

https://betanews.com/2001/06/18/microsoft-we-use-freebsd






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Re: [Emc-users] ConFusion 360 - distributing closed source code

[Les Newell]

Docker and appimage basically rely on packaging as many libraries as 
possible and hoping for the best. Even then if you rely on newer 
versions of libc or libstcc++ than your target distro you are SOL. If 
your application relies on C++11 or C++17 features you can't just build 
it on an old system to get around the problem.


I admit things are getting better for closed source in Linux but they 
are a long way from the sort of compatibility you get with Windows and 
Mac. Combine that with the relatively small percentage of users who run 
Linux and few software vendors are willing to make the needed investment.


Les


But today we use containers to be portable.The lightest weight one is a
Linux "appImage" that is like a MacOS app bundle.Both of these get
around the problem by including everything you need to run the app in the
bundle.Then there are real containers like Docker if you need to
distribute a complete environment and not just one app and then even
heavier containers like VMs where you distribute the entire OS as an
appliance that you can boot on a VM.




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Re: [Emc-users] ConFusion 360

[Gregg Eshelman via Emc-users]

If you have Windows 7 or 8 installed you can upgrade for free. Find the 
gatherosstate.exe file on the Windows 10 disc or ISO. Copy it to the desktop 
and run it. Copy the genuineticket file it creates somewhere off the computer. 
Now you can erase the installed Windows and do a clean install of 10. It's easy 
to find where to copy the genuineticket file to make 10 self activate.
Windows 10 will also directly accept many retail and OEM key codes for 7 and 8.
One recently introduced *gotcha* is starting with build 1607 of Windows 10, 
it's been deprecating older methods of driver signing, especially for video 
drivers. What happens is newer builds will allow the installer to run but will 
quietly block the driver files from installing. If you try to manually install 
the extracted files with Device Manager it will either lie to you with a claim 
of being unable to find the file it just found, or will BSOD.
As of build 1809 there's a workaround. Install Build 1511 and all the drivers, 
then upgrade to any build from 1607 through 1809. That will allow the 
"insecure" drivers to stay. No word on if the new major build to be released 
later this year will still do that.
There's a recently introduced bug in Windows 10 with some laptops. When 
returning from shutting off the display, sleeping, or hibernating, the screen 
is solid black except for the mouse pointer. The latest cumulative update for 
build 1809 addresses *some* of those issues but if you have an older laptop 
that shipped with Vista or 7 which has the black screen bug with build 1607 or 
later it may never get fixed. The workaround is to completely disable display 
off, sleep, and hibernate. I fixed up a Compaq NC8430 (shipped with 32bit Win7, 
I dropped in 4 gig, a 320 gig HD, and a Core 2 Duo to install Win 10 x64) that 
has this issue, along with having to do the 1511 then 1809 upgrade to get a 
proper video driver for the ATi Mobility Radeon X1600.
Dunno why Microsoft cannot stop re-breaking things in Windows 10 after they've 
fixed them. The RTM release had major problems with a large number of laptop 
WiFi adapters. Took them almost a year to put out a fix, which they had to make 
available for direct download both for RTM and the first update build. Then 
Microsoft proceeded to re-break WiFi several more times until they seem to have 
decide to quit mucking about and leave it alone.
On Saturday, March 23, 2019, 2:25:13 PM MDT, Chris Albertson 
 wrote:  
 
 On Sat, Mar 23, 2019 at 12:56 PM andy pugh  wrote:

> On Sat, 23 Mar 2019 at 19:45, Chris Albertson 
> wrote:
> >
> > Actually, Fusion already runs on a Linux machine, Make a VM with Window
> 10
> > in the Linux computer then put Fusion on the VM.
>
> But how much does a Windows 10 Licence cost? It seems to be around
> £189 (for a full retail rathe than OEM version)
>

You can run Windows 10 for free and you don't need to pirate the software.
  It's
all above board.    Yuo can install Windows 10 from the Microsoft website.
then simply never "activate" it.    The only real difference between an
activated
and unactivated Wondows 10 is cosmetic.  The system will now and then ask
you to
activate it.  But it continues to run jst fine.  Yuo even get all the
software
security and feature updates    I even have some cloud stoarage
in Microft's system for One Note and some other data.

Microsoft's policies have changed qute a lot with their new CEO.

If you are willing to be slightly devious, Microsoft will give you a free
activated
copy of Windows 10 if you download it from their "accessibilty" web site.
They make Win 10 acailable to those who are disabled but do not ask for
proof or even
ask if you are in fact disabled.  So you get it with out having to enter
false information.

Then of cousre you can be dishonest and us any of the ba-zillian cracked
copies of Windows on the web.  But this is not legal even if it is common.

Your best bet is simply to not activate.  Microsoft is fine with this, but
they will nag you forever.








> --
> atp
> "A motorcycle is a bicycle with a pandemonium attachment and is
> designed for the especial use of mechanical geniuses, daredevils and
> lunatics."
> — George Fitch, Atlanta Constitution Newspaper, 1916
>
>
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-- 

Chris Albertson
Redondo Beach, California

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Re: [Emc-users] ConFusion 360

[Lester Caine]

On 23/03/2019 21:30, Jon Elson wrote:
If you're trying EDA software, I found Kicad to be far easier to learn 
and use than Eagle or Geda - and it's quite powerful these days.


I still run an expensive licensed version of Protel99 SE. It has a few 
quirks, but is quite solid and the schematic vs. PCB checks are totally 
perfect.  Any weakness there can cost you serious $$$.


I inherited the CRAMPS board from Charles Steinkuehler, which he 
designed in Kicad.  While Kicad is not quite up to the level of 
Protel99, it definitely is getting close.  And, there has been a major 
rev update since I tried it, so it is likely even better.


Like TurboCAD I still have Easy-PC on the windows machine which is going 
to be a pig to port from, but those boards are unlikely to need any work 
before I finally get to retire and start playing properly :)


--
Lester Caine - G8HFL
-
Contact - https://lsces.co.uk/wiki/?page=contact
L.S.Caine Electronic Services - https://lsces.co.uk
EnquirySolve - https://enquirysolve.com/
Model Engineers Digital Workshop - https://medw.co.uk
Rainbow Digital Media - https://rainbowdigitalmedia.co.uk


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Re: [Emc-users] ConFusion 360

[Chris Albertson]

On Sat, Mar 23, 2019 at 2:04 PM Greg Bernard  wrote:

> "The biggest problem with the beginners free trial is that its way too
> short, and a couple of them are downright insulting in their insistence
> to sell you a real licence when the 30 days has expired, Draftsight and
> Solidworks are both guilty of the extreme hard sell."



Fusion's is pretty fair.  You get to use it for free untill you are making
$50,000 per year.
They just take you word for it.   The idea is to be free fro students and
hobby users
ad small start up companies

I think they learns a lot with Autocad.   At one time Autocas was the
single most pirates
software.   At first Autodesk throught they were beibg ripped off, then got
smarter
and figured none of the pirated copies represented lost sales.  Those users
lacked
the means to pay.   So it was FAR better to let then user a pirated copy of
adutcad then to tell them to use a free competing program.   Allowing
everyone
and his brohter to use the pirat copy made then the industry standard.I
think
they are tryig to replicate this with Fusion 360 by giving it away to all
those
who can't pay for it.Then later when you are making $50K you can
certainly afford
a licences and they say most do in fact pay.   No one wants to base their
company
work flow aroubd perated software.

Solid works does nt need a generous trial period because Soldworks in
entrenced in the industry.
why would anyone need to try it?

What is so great is that even those of us at the low end with no budget can
use truely profesional
level design tools now. I can design a PCB that uses tiny SMD parts and
have it made for $2 thenplace it inside a
structure made of compound curesandhave all the screws line up and the
procees costsnext to nothing.



-- 

Chris Albertson
Redondo Beach, California

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Re: [Emc-users] ConFusion 360

[Jon Elson]

On 03/23/2019 01:34 PM, Moses McKnight wrote:

On 3/23/19 1:16 PM, Gene Heskett wrote:


...  Gotta learn geda and friends I guess.


If you're trying EDA software, I found Kicad to be far 
easier to learn and use than Eagle or Geda - and it's 
quite powerful these days.


I still run an expensive licensed version of Protel99 SE.  
It has a few quirks, but is quite solid and the schematic 
vs. PCB checks are totally perfect.  Any weakness there can 
cost you serious $$$.


I inherited the CRAMPS board from Charles Steinkuehler, 
which he designed in Kicad.  While Kicad is not quite up to 
the level of Protel99, it definitely is getting close.  And, 
there has been a major rev update since I tried it, so it is 
likely even better.


Jon


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Re: [Emc-users] ConFusion 360

[Greg Bernard]

"The biggest problem with the beginners free trial is that its way too
short, and a couple of them are downright insulting in their insistence
to sell you a real licence when the 30 days has expired, Draftsight and
Solidworks are both guilty of the extreme hard sell."

I haven't found that true with Draftsight. I do get emails from them urging
me to upgrade which I simply ignore.

On Sat, Mar 23, 2019 at 1:18 PM Gene Heskett  wrote:

> On Saturday 23 March 2019 13:47:27 Rafael Skodlar wrote:
>
> > On 3/22/19 2:14 PM, Jeff Johnson wrote:
> > > Anyone on here have opinions on Fusion 360 Cad/Cam by Autodesk?
> >
> > Opinions is one thing, experience is another. After few mentions about
> > Fusion on this mailing list in the past I briefly looked at it and
> > that was it. Anything from here is my _opinion_ based on a lot of
> > experience.
> >
> > Any engineer worth his keep ran CAD CAM programs on minicomputers of
> > some kind; Digital, HP, Silicon Graphics, Sun Microsystems. All that
> > kept healthy competition going until it became bastardized with ports
> > to Windows".
> > Anybody or a company that is so narrow minded to produce their
> > software product for one crappy OS is STUPID! They are under false
> > impression that "free software" is only free in terms of $$$ so
> > there's no money in it. Wrong! We proved this time and time again,
> > free software is free as freedom which is not necessarily absolutely
> > free and run if there is any grain of decency in for profit user.
> >
> > Last week of February this year I "celebrated my 25 years of Linux"
> > with creating a wiki page on internal site at work. In there I
> > described my experience and inserted numerous pictures of Linux
> > distributions I bought in the past. First was a set of 49 floppy disks
> > from Linux Systems Labs which besides at home, I also installed it at
> > National semiconductor as the first Linux server. That was running at
> > least two more years I was told after I left the company. Why stay
> > when the manager told me there is no future in Linux. She sent me to
> > "Windows 95 reeducation camp" in San Francisco that year.
> >
> > My Linux experience helped me find interesting jobs because I kept
> > supporting and studying it with buying 6CD set from ImageMagic,
> > Progeny Linux, Redhat, Mandrake, etc. and FreeBSD.
> >
> > I believe that if I use "free software" of some kind commercially I
> > have a moral obligation to contribute in some way and I encouraged
> > that at different work places. One of my managers approved purchasing
> > GNU package for Windows in late 90s.
> >
> > I would call "greedy bastard" anybody that would run a "(machine shop)
> > of some kind making huge profits with free software without providing
> > some kind of support to people that developed it. Send them $$$ or
> > invite them to your shop for consulting; travel expenses included.
> > That would give you bragging rights to advertise "We actively support
> > " on your main web page.
> >
> > A number of us, members of Silicon Valley Linux Users Group,
> > volunteered for years installing Linux on personal computers for those
> > who brought them to Linux Install-fest organized at Cisco, North San
> > Jose. This was a good will to software developers mainly so that they
> > would be encouraged to develop software for/on Linux platform.
> >
> > There is a number of good examples of software projects that started
> > as open source and evolved into commercially supported version with
> > proprietary enhancements only available for $$$. I have no problem
> > with that as long as the data and config file formats remain
> > compatible with free version.
> >
> Hear hear!
>
> > This kind of "business model" allows people to learn basics of a
> > software product for free then switch to commercial version (because
> > they know it) for profit.
>
> The biggest problem with the beginners free trial is that its way too
> short, and a couple of them are downright insulting in their insistence
> to sell you a real licence when the 30 days has expired, Draftsight and
> Solidworks are both guilty of the extreme hard sell.
>
> > My conclusion after reading long thread that grew out from "Fusion
> > 360" is ConFusion. Now I wonder about their Eagle acquisition also. "2
> > schematic sheets, 2 signal layers, and an 80cm2 board area." PCB with
> > 80cm2 only? Really?
> > Sorry, but Autodesk "embrace and extinguish" business model is not for
> > me.
>
> Aha, that explains why 7.2 files can no longer be loaded into 7.5, and
> while 7.5 looks a lot like 7.2, but its nowhere near 7.2's ability. Mass
> confusion is more like it. E.,E., & E. at work. Looking at the license,
> I've not bothered to DL anything newer. Talk about self inflicted foot
> wounds, theres an example.  Gotta learn geda and friends I guess.
>
> Thanks Rafael Skodlar
>
> Cheers, Gene Heskett
> --
> "There are four boxes to be used in defense of liberty:
>  soap, ballot, jury, and ammo. Pleas

Re: [Emc-users] ConFusion 360

[Chris Albertson]

There are ways around this and it might make sense to distribute your
software in a portable way. Years ago "everything" was distributed as
source code file with instructions that read "edit the Makefile as required
then type "Make install" as root.Then we saw Autotools which could edit
the Makefile for you.

But today we use containers to be portable.The lightest weight one is a
Linux "appImage" that is like a MacOS app bundle.Both of these get
around the problem by including everything you need to run the app in the
bundle.Then there are real containers like Docker if you need to
distribute a complete environment and not just one app and then even
heavier containers like VMs where you distribute the entire OS as an
appliance that you can boot on a VM.

So it is possible to  distribute Linux apps in a manner that is portable
across most Linux systems.

On Sat, Mar 23, 2019 at 1:39 PM Les Newell 
wrote:

> Hi Andy,
>
> > (Which is based on BSD, so a Linux port would be easy, if they chose
> > to do it)
>
> Porting closed  source code to Linux is very difficult to do. Windows
> and Mac have consistent libraries. I can take a binary that was written
> for Win2K and run it on Win10. Conversely I can build a program in Win10
> that will run on Win2K (within certain limits). Linux keeps changing and
> binary compatibility is lousy. If I build an application on a current
> version of Linux it won't run on a distro that is even a few years
> older. An app built on Ubuntu probably won't work properly on Fedora.
> There are tricks to mitigate these issues but they all involve lots of
> work and don't provide a reliable solution.
>
> Les
>
>
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-- 

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Redondo Beach, California

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Re: [Emc-users] ConFusion 360

[Les Newell]

Hi Andy,

(Which is based on BSD, so a Linux port would be easy, if they chose 
to do it)


Porting closed  source code to Linux is very difficult to do. Windows 
and Mac have consistent libraries. I can take a binary that was written 
for Win2K and run it on Win10. Conversely I can build a program in Win10 
that will run on Win2K (within certain limits). Linux keeps changing and 
binary compatibility is lousy. If I build an application on a current 
version of Linux it won't run on a distro that is even a few years 
older. An app built on Ubuntu probably won't work properly on Fedora. 
There are tricks to mitigate these issues but they all involve lots of 
work and don't provide a reliable solution.


Les


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Re: [Emc-users] ConFusion 360

[Chris Albertson]

On Sat, Mar 23, 2019 at 12:56 PM andy pugh  wrote:

> On Sat, 23 Mar 2019 at 19:45, Chris Albertson 
> wrote:
> >
> > Actually, Fusion already runs on a Linux machine, Make a VM with Window
> 10
> > in the Linux computer then put Fusion on the VM.
>
> But how much does a Windows 10 Licence cost? It seems to be around
> £189 (for a full retail rathe than OEM version)
>

You can run Windows 10 for free and you don't need to pirate the software.
  It's
all above board.Yuo can install Windows 10 from the Microsoft website.
then simply never "activate" it.The only real difference between an
activated
and unactivated Wondows 10 is cosmetic.  The system will now and then ask
you to
activate it.   But it continues to run jst fine.  Yuo even get all the
software
security and feature updatesI even have some cloud stoarage
in Microft's system for One Note and some other data.

Microsoft's policies have changed qute a lot with their new CEO.

If you are willing to be slightly devious, Microsoft will give you a free
activated
copy of Windows 10 if you download it from their "accessibilty" web site.
They make Win 10 acailable to those who are disabled but do not ask for
proof or even
ask if you are in fact disabled.   So you get it with out having to enter
false information.

Then of cousre you can be dishonest and us any of the ba-zillian cracked
copies of Windows on the web.  But this is not legal even if it is common.

Your best bet is simply to not activate.  Microsoft is fine with this, but
they will nag you forever.








> --
> atp
> "A motorcycle is a bicycle with a pandemonium attachment and is
> designed for the especial use of mechanical geniuses, daredevils and
> lunatics."
> — George Fitch, Atlanta Constitution Newspaper, 1916
>
>
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>


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Redondo Beach, California

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Re: [Emc-users] ConFusion 360

[andy pugh]

On Sat, 23 Mar 2019 at 19:45, Chris Albertson  wrote:
>
> Actually, Fusion already runs on a Linux machine, Make a VM with Window 10
> in the Linux computer then put Fusion on the VM.

But how much does a Windows 10 Licence cost? It seems to be around
£189 (for a full retail rathe than OEM version)

-- 
atp
"A motorcycle is a bicycle with a pandemonium attachment and is
designed for the especial use of mechanical geniuses, daredevils and
lunatics."
— George Fitch, Atlanta Constitution Newspaper, 1916


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Re: [Emc-users] ConFusion 360

[Chris Albertson]

Actually, Fusion already runs on a Linux machine, Make a VM with Window 10
in the Linux computer then put Fusion on the VM.   It runs very close to
native speed.   I was able to get an older copy of Mac OS to run on the VM
under Linux but it was not practical, only useful for saying "look at this"
but Windows 10 under Linux is 100% usable and a supported use case.

On Sat, Mar 23, 2019 at 12:33 PM andy pugh  wrote:

> On Sat, 23 Mar 2019 at 17:49, Rafael Skodlar  wrote:
>
> > Anybody or a company that is so narrow minded to produce their software
> > product for one crappy OS is STUPID!
>
> Fusion also runs on Mac OS.
>
> (Which is based on BSD, so a Linux port would be easy, if they chose to do
> it)
>
> --
> atp
> "A motorcycle is a bicycle with a pandemonium attachment and is
> designed for the especial use of mechanical geniuses, daredevils and
> lunatics."
> — George Fitch, Atlanta Constitution Newspaper, 1916
>
>
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>


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Re: [Emc-users] ConFusion 360

[Chris Albertson]

I second that.   Eagle used to be the only one that was stable and had a
decent library.  Then KiCAD gained a source of development funding with
CERN (yhe European physics lab) and they added some paid developers
and KiCAD "took off".   They leap frogged Eagle in only a couple years.

But Eagle was stangnating and not being developed formany years, then
Autodesk bought Eagle and now Eagle has a billion dollar company funding
further development.

Autodesk's stated goal is to closly integrate Eagle with Fusion because they
say (and I agree) that modern products are a combination of hardware and
circuits.I very good example is a cell phone or a video camera or a
notebook
computer.  these are the kinds of products people buld and sell now.

I thought this know of integrated electronics/mechanics was not for
hobbyists but then
I find I'm doing it even in prototypes.  I just made a crash bumper for
acrobat with
integrated micro-switches and hardware switch debouncing.   It is a very
simple
device, not unlike the "home" switch on a mill  Just switches, an RC
filters and diode
and come connectors but non the less it is integrated mechanical/electronics
with electronics, springs and hard and rubber parts.   All so a little
machine can
stop if it collides with a wall or someone's foot.

That said, I move other to KiCad a while back. I and can export and import
PCB models,
Yes integrated would be nice but i don't chance PCBs that often.




On Sat, Mar 23, 2019 at 11:52 AM Moses McKnight  wrote:

> On 3/23/19 1:16 PM, Gene Heskett wrote:
>
> > ...  Gotta learn geda and friends I guess.
>
> If you're trying EDA software, I found Kicad to be far easier to learn and
> use
> than Eagle or Geda - and it's quite powerful these days.
>
> Moses
>
>
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Re: [Emc-users] ConFusion 360

[andy pugh]

On Sat, 23 Mar 2019 at 17:49, Rafael Skodlar  wrote:

> Anybody or a company that is so narrow minded to produce their software
> product for one crappy OS is STUPID!

Fusion also runs on Mac OS.

(Which is based on BSD, so a Linux port would be easy, if they chose to do it)

-- 
atp
"A motorcycle is a bicycle with a pandemonium attachment and is
designed for the especial use of mechanical geniuses, daredevils and
lunatics."
— George Fitch, Atlanta Constitution Newspaper, 1916


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Re: [Emc-users] ConFusion 360

[Moses McKnight]

On 3/23/19 1:16 PM, Gene Heskett wrote:


...  Gotta learn geda and friends I guess.


If you're trying EDA software, I found Kicad to be far easier to learn and use 
than Eagle or Geda - and it's quite powerful these days.


Moses


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Re: [Emc-users] ConFusion 360

[Gene Heskett]

On Saturday 23 March 2019 13:47:27 Rafael Skodlar wrote:

> On 3/22/19 2:14 PM, Jeff Johnson wrote:
> > Anyone on here have opinions on Fusion 360 Cad/Cam by Autodesk?
>
> Opinions is one thing, experience is another. After few mentions about
> Fusion on this mailing list in the past I briefly looked at it and
> that was it. Anything from here is my _opinion_ based on a lot of
> experience.
>
> Any engineer worth his keep ran CAD CAM programs on minicomputers of
> some kind; Digital, HP, Silicon Graphics, Sun Microsystems. All that
> kept healthy competition going until it became bastardized with ports
> to Windows".
> Anybody or a company that is so narrow minded to produce their
> software product for one crappy OS is STUPID! They are under false
> impression that "free software" is only free in terms of $$$ so
> there's no money in it. Wrong! We proved this time and time again,
> free software is free as freedom which is not necessarily absolutely
> free and run if there is any grain of decency in for profit user.
>
> Last week of February this year I "celebrated my 25 years of Linux"
> with creating a wiki page on internal site at work. In there I
> described my experience and inserted numerous pictures of Linux
> distributions I bought in the past. First was a set of 49 floppy disks
> from Linux Systems Labs which besides at home, I also installed it at
> National semiconductor as the first Linux server. That was running at
> least two more years I was told after I left the company. Why stay
> when the manager told me there is no future in Linux. She sent me to
> "Windows 95 reeducation camp" in San Francisco that year.
>
> My Linux experience helped me find interesting jobs because I kept
> supporting and studying it with buying 6CD set from ImageMagic,
> Progeny Linux, Redhat, Mandrake, etc. and FreeBSD.
>
> I believe that if I use "free software" of some kind commercially I
> have a moral obligation to contribute in some way and I encouraged
> that at different work places. One of my managers approved purchasing
> GNU package for Windows in late 90s.
>
> I would call "greedy bastard" anybody that would run a "(machine shop)
> of some kind making huge profits with free software without providing
> some kind of support to people that developed it. Send them $$$ or
> invite them to your shop for consulting; travel expenses included.
> That would give you bragging rights to advertise "We actively support
> " on your main web page.
>
> A number of us, members of Silicon Valley Linux Users Group,
> volunteered for years installing Linux on personal computers for those
> who brought them to Linux Install-fest organized at Cisco, North San
> Jose. This was a good will to software developers mainly so that they
> would be encouraged to develop software for/on Linux platform.
>
> There is a number of good examples of software projects that started
> as open source and evolved into commercially supported version with
> proprietary enhancements only available for $$$. I have no problem
> with that as long as the data and config file formats remain
> compatible with free version.
>
Hear hear!

> This kind of "business model" allows people to learn basics of a
> software product for free then switch to commercial version (because
> they know it) for profit.

The biggest problem with the beginners free trial is that its way too 
short, and a couple of them are downright insulting in their insistence 
to sell you a real licence when the 30 days has expired, Draftsight and 
Solidworks are both guilty of the extreme hard sell.

> My conclusion after reading long thread that grew out from "Fusion
> 360" is ConFusion. Now I wonder about their Eagle acquisition also. "2
> schematic sheets, 2 signal layers, and an 80cm2 board area." PCB with
> 80cm2 only? Really?
> Sorry, but Autodesk "embrace and extinguish" business model is not for
> me.

Aha, that explains why 7.2 files can no longer be loaded into 7.5, and 
while 7.5 looks a lot like 7.2, but its nowhere near 7.2's ability. Mass 
confusion is more like it. E.,E., & E. at work. Looking at the license, 
I've not bothered to DL anything newer. Talk about self inflicted foot 
wounds, theres an example.  Gotta learn geda and friends I guess.

Thanks Rafael Skodlar

Cheers, Gene Heskett
-- 
"There are four boxes to be used in defense of liberty:
 soap, ballot, jury, and ammo. Please use in that order."
-Ed Howdershelt (Author)
Genes Web page 



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Re: [Emc-users] ConFusion 360

[Rafael Skodlar]

On 3/22/19 2:14 PM, Jeff Johnson wrote:

Anyone on here have opinions on Fusion 360 Cad/Cam by Autodesk?



Opinions is one thing, experience is another. After few mentions about 
Fusion on this mailing list in the past I briefly looked at it and that 
was it. Anything from here is my _opinion_ based on a lot of experience.


Any engineer worth his keep ran CAD CAM programs on minicomputers of 
some kind; Digital, HP, Silicon Graphics, Sun Microsystems. All that 
kept healthy competition going until it became bastardized with ports to 
Windows".
Anybody or a company that is so narrow minded to produce their software 
product for one crappy OS is STUPID! They are under false impression 
that "free software" is only free in terms of $$$ so there's no money in 
it. Wrong! We proved this time and time again, free software is free as 
freedom which is not necessarily absolutely free and run if there is any 
grain of decency in for profit user.


Last week of February this year I "celebrated my 25 years of Linux" with 
creating a wiki page on internal site at work. In there I described my 
experience and inserted numerous pictures of Linux distributions I 
bought in the past. First was a set of 49 floppy disks from Linux 
Systems Labs which besides at home, I also installed it at National 
semiconductor as the first Linux server. That was running at least two 
more years I was told after I left the company. Why stay when the 
manager told me there is no future in Linux. She sent me to "Windows 95 
reeducation camp" in San Francisco that year.


My Linux experience helped me find interesting jobs because I kept 
supporting and studying it with buying 6CD set from ImageMagic, Progeny 
Linux, Redhat, Mandrake, etc. and FreeBSD.


I believe that if I use "free software" of some kind commercially I have 
a moral obligation to contribute in some way and I encouraged that at 
different work places. One of my managers approved purchasing GNU 
package for Windows in late 90s.


I would call "greedy bastard" anybody that would run a "(machine shop) 
of some kind making huge profits with free software without providing 
some kind of support to people that developed it. Send them $$$ or 
invite them to your shop for consulting; travel expenses included. That 
would give you bragging rights to advertise "We actively support 
" on your main web page.


A number of us, members of Silicon Valley Linux Users Group, volunteered 
for years installing Linux on personal computers for those who brought 
them to Linux Install-fest organized at Cisco, North San Jose. This was 
a good will to software developers mainly so that they would be 
encouraged to develop software for/on Linux platform.


There is a number of good examples of software projects that started as 
open source and evolved into commercially supported version with 
proprietary enhancements only available for $$$. I have no problem with 
that as long as the data and config file formats remain compatible with 
free version.


This kind of "business model" allows people to learn basics of a 
software product for free then switch to commercial version (because 
they know it) for profit.


My conclusion after reading long thread that grew out from "Fusion 360" 
is ConFusion. Now I wonder about their Eagle acquisition also. "2 
schematic sheets, 2 signal layers, and an 80cm2 board area." PCB with 
80cm2 only? Really?

Sorry, but Autodesk "embrace and extinguish" business model is not for me.

--
Rafael Skodlar


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