[Emc-users] DRO failureType FAGOR 0-300 (spanish made)

[Peter Blodow]

Gentlemen,

a little off topic, sorry: A 3 axis system of above type was given to me 
because of beginning irregularities. As it turned out, all three axis 
displays are working, but mostly show irreproducible numbers, i.e., when 
pushing a glass rule slider forward and back again to the same position, 
the display does by far not return to the start value or what's worse, 
the direction of movement is not even always detected correctly. The 
sensors were well covered with grease and sticky. I cleaned all three 
carefully with alcohol but it made no difference exept that I get no 
greasy fingers any more.  The electronics unit seems to be ok, too, 
probably no noise affair or so. All three channels going crazy in the 
same manner point to a common source.

The device itself is probably rather ancient, but the manual from FAGOR 
is still available on the internet though apparently for newer models.

It looks like the glass measures are functioning just like rotary 
encoders with ground and +5V, A, B and I channels. The index home 
position is indicated on the outside by a mark.

My suspicion is that the infrared LED's in the sensors have lost power 
so the electronic counters don't get all the pulses from the sensors 
anymore. I know this decaying phenomenon from other long term 
performance or high power LED applications such as CD burners and 
refrigerator indicators. And as I know how workshops run, machine 
readouts are never turned off because they usually don't have a separate 
switch or the workers care the heck, so anyway, they get a lot of hours. 
Replacing the infrared LED's would be tricky, but relatively easy if it 
were worth wile.

Can you imagine that my suspicion is right? Does anyone of you have 
experienced a DRO behaving crazy in this manner without a recognizeable 
reason, and has anyone repaired one (successfully ;-)?

Thanks in advance from

Peter Blodow
Ehrenberg, Bavaria


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Re: [Emc-users] DRO failureType FAGOR 0-300 (spanish made)

[Dave Caroline]

if the scales were dirty expect the sensors to be covered in "stuff"
too thus blinding them.

You could scope the power supply too make sure it is a clean 5v and
that all cables are ok
and scope the signals to see which are clean and which are faulty.

if you had the sensors apart have you reset the phase between A and B

Dave Caroline


On 08/01/2014, Peter Blodow  wrote:
> Gentlemen,
>
> a little off topic, sorry: A 3 axis system of above type was given to me
> because of beginning irregularities. As it turned out, all three axis
> displays are working, but mostly show irreproducible numbers, i.e., when
> pushing a glass rule slider forward and back again to the same position,
> the display does by far not return to the start value or what's worse,
> the direction of movement is not even always detected correctly. The
> sensors were well covered with grease and sticky. I cleaned all three
> carefully with alcohol but it made no difference exept that I get no
> greasy fingers any more.  The electronics unit seems to be ok, too,
> probably no noise affair or so. All three channels going crazy in the
> same manner point to a common source.
>
> The device itself is probably rather ancient, but the manual from FAGOR
> is still available on the internet though apparently for newer models.
>
> It looks like the glass measures are functioning just like rotary
> encoders with ground and +5V, A, B and I channels. The index home
> position is indicated on the outside by a mark.
>
> My suspicion is that the infrared LED's in the sensors have lost power
> so the electronic counters don't get all the pulses from the sensors
> anymore. I know this decaying phenomenon from other long term
> performance or high power LED applications such as CD burners and
> refrigerator indicators. And as I know how workshops run, machine
> readouts are never turned off because they usually don't have a separate
> switch or the workers care the heck, so anyway, they get a lot of hours.
> Replacing the infrared LED's would be tricky, but relatively easy if it
> were worth wile.
>
> Can you imagine that my suspicion is right? Does anyone of you have
> experienced a DRO behaving crazy in this manner without a recognizeable
> reason, and has anyone repaired one (successfully ;-)?
>
> Thanks in advance from
>
> Peter Blodow
> Ehrenberg, Bavaria
>
>
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> affects their revenue. With AppDynamics, you get 100% visibility into your
> Java,.NET, & PHP application. Start your 15-day FREE TRIAL of AppDynamics
> Pro!
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Re: [Emc-users] DRO failureType FAGOR 0-300 (spanish made)

[Peter Blodow]

Dave,
thanks for answering so promptly. Haven't got out the scope so far, but 
that mustl be one of the next things to do. What do you mean by 
resetting the phase between A and B? I haven't taken the sensors apart 
yet, just did my very best with paper towels and Qtips. If I had to take 
them apart, which means fiddling with delicate parts with the rigid and 
heavy armoured cables attached, I would of course try to work like 
porcupines in the act of reproducing - rally careful. Anything more 
I have to know?

Peter

Am 08.01.2014 17:24, schrieb Dave Caroline:
> if the scales were dirty expect the sensors to be covered in "stuff"
> too thus blinding them.
>
> You could scope the power supply too make sure it is a clean 5v and
> that all cables are ok
> and scope the signals to see which are clean and which are faulty.
>
> if you had the sensors apart have you reset the phase between A and B
>
> Dave Caroline
>
>
> On 08/01/2014, Peter Blodow  wrote:
>


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Re: [Emc-users] DRO failureType FAGOR 0-300 (spanish made)

[Jon Elson]

On 01/08/2014 10:09 AM, Peter Blodow wrote:
> Gentlemen,
>
> a little off topic, sorry: A 3 axis system of above type was given to me
> because of beginning irregularities. As it turned out, all three axis
> displays are working, but mostly show irreproducible numbers, i.e., when
> pushing a glass rule slider forward and back again to the same position,
> the display does by far not return to the start value or what's worse,
> the direction of movement is not even always detected correctly.
Do you have an oscilloscope?  You should look at the A and B
quadrature signals to see if they are clean digital signals, or
full of noisy pulses.  Several things can go wrong.  First, of
course, dirt and oils can get inside the optics.  There will be
a light source behind the fixed scale and a sensor grating
that is very close to the patterned side of the scale.  the
sensor grating has the 90 degree quadrature offset fixed
into its spacing.  If dirt or oil has gotten between the light
source or the sensor, it will reduce the light passing through
the scale.  One common failure of cheap scales is they have
friction glider pads that wear down over time and allow the
scale and sensor grating to hit, rubbing off the pattern.  This
is fatal, there is no way to repair it.  You should also check
the cables for broken wires or dirty connector contacts.
The light source may be fading.  There may be adjustments
in the read head to set the comparator level for the light
source.

Finally, since all axes are showing similar symptoms, it may
be the control unit that has the failure.  Check all power
supply voltages, and especially check for AC ripple on the
power supplies.  If the power supply capacitors have 
deteriorated,
they may be causing a lot of ripple on the supply voltages,
confusing the encoder counter.

Jon

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Re: [Emc-users] DRO failureType FAGOR 0-300 (spanish made)

[Gregg Eshelman]

On 1/8/2014 9:09 AM, Peter Blodow wrote:
> The
> sensors were well covered with grease and sticky. I cleaned all three
> carefully with alcohol but it made no difference exept that I get no
> greasy fingers any more.  The electronics unit seems to be ok, too,
> probably no noise affair or so. All three channels going crazy in the
> same manner point to a common source.

I cleaned a glass scale on a milling machine with straight Simple Green. 
Took the slider out to slosh around in a can of Simple Green and also 
flooded the scale with it, put the end cap back on so it could be 
sloshed back and forth.

Then I flushed it all with plain water, blew it out with compressed air 
then aimed a couple of halogen work lights at it (from enough distance 
so as not to melt anything) to dry.

After putting it back together and back on the mill it worked fine.

My idea was if it already doesn't work, nothing I could do to it could 
make it not work. ;-)

I have an old Proctor Silex pop-up toaster oven (toast out the top, oven 
door in the front, nobody makes such anymore) that quit working. The 
toaster part wouldn't latch down and it wouldn't spring up either. So I 
took it apart and ran it through my dishwasher, then put it back 
together. Works better than ever now, just about throws the toast clean 
out of the slot. Didn't work, couldn't make it not work by washing it!


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Re: [Emc-users] DRO failureType FAGOR 0-300 (spanish made)

[Gene Heskett]

On Wednesday 08 January 2014 21:34:02 Gregg Eshelman did opine:

> On 1/8/2014 9:09 AM, Peter Blodow wrote:
> > The
> > sensors were well covered with grease and sticky. I cleaned all three
> > carefully with alcohol but it made no difference exept that I get no
> > greasy fingers any more.  The electronics unit seems to be ok, too,
> > probably no noise affair or so. All three channels going crazy in the
> > same manner point to a common source.
> 
> I cleaned a glass scale on a milling machine with straight Simple Green.
> Took the slider out to slosh around in a can of Simple Green and also
> flooded the scale with it, put the end cap back on so it could be
> sloshed back and forth.
> 
> Then I flushed it all with plain water, blew it out with compressed air
> then aimed a couple of halogen work lights at it (from enough distance
> so as not to melt anything) to dry.
> 
> After putting it back together and back on the mill it worked fine.
> 
> My idea was if it already doesn't work, nothing I could do to it could
> make it not work. ;-)
> 
> I have an old Proctor Silex pop-up toaster oven (toast out the top, oven
> door in the front, nobody makes such anymore) that quit working. The
> toaster part wouldn't latch down and it wouldn't spring up either. So I
> took it apart and ran it through my dishwasher, then put it back
> together. Works better than ever now, just about throws the toast clean
> out of the slot. Didn't work, couldn't make it not work by washing it!

Pretty good take on it Gregg. 

I recall once, back in the late '80's, on an old character generator that 
had a sticky key problem, so I flushed it all out, several years worth of 
grit mixed with hand creams of dubious ancestry, with wd-40.  3 days later 
it had lost 3 keys.  I called the CG folks who practically fainted when I 
said I had used wd-40 to clean it.

They said put the phone down, and run, don't walk to the dishwasher, put it 
in the top rack and run at least 3 cycles with the last using just a squirt 
of palmolive.  Turned out that the $16/copy Cherry brand key switches were 
hall effect devices that were being poisoned by the wd-40's petroleum 
content.  In the end I wound up replacing 7 of them.  It was a pretty heavy 
duty keyboard, similar to the old IBM's that weighed about 5 lbs and could 
be used to smash a skull in a pinch. It had by then probably typed a 
million words or more.  And it probably did another million by the time we 
retired it 10+ years later.

Cheers, Gene
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Re: [Emc-users] DRO failureType FAGOR 0-300 (spanish made)

[Jon Elson]

On 01/08/2014 10:49 AM, Peter Blodow wrote:
> Dave,
> thanks for answering so promptly. Haven't got out the scope so far, but
> that mustl be one of the next things to do. What do you mean by
> resetting the phase between A and B?
Some of the oldest linear glass scales had adjustable offset
between the A and B sensors.  I worked on one that had
the same grating for the scale and the read head, and they
tilted the read head grating to get the quadrature effect.
This caused the light and dark regions to sweep across the
sensor at right angles to the motion.  It used a form of the
Moire effect.

Most scales made since the 1970's have the 90 degree
quadrature offset built into the glass pattern of the read head,
and no adjustment is possible, other than angular alignment
between scale and head.

Jon

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Re: [Emc-users] DRO failureType FAGOR 0-300 (spanish made)

[andy pugh]

On 9 January 2014 03:04, Jon Elson  wrote:
>   It used a form of the
> Moire effect.

I like it when you search for something on the Internet and find
something better. I just found
http://www.model-engineer.co.uk/forums/postings.asp?th=83579
(Post 5). Marvellous.

I was looking for:
https://www.apexauctions.co.uk/static/resources/Auctioneer_1/Auction_578/lot_id_56607/LotImage_93043.jpg

The Moore and Wright "Micro 2000" which used the Moiré efffect. (jolly
clever, really)

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Re: [Emc-users] DRO failureType FAGOR 0-300 (spanish made)

[Mark Wendt]

On Wed, Jan 8, 2014 at 9:49 PM, Gene Heskett  wrote:

>
> Pretty good take on it Gregg.
>
> I recall once, back in the late '80's, on an old character generator that
> had a sticky key problem, so I flushed it all out, several years worth of
> grit mixed with hand creams of dubious ancestry, with wd-40.  3 days later
> it had lost 3 keys.  I called the CG folks who practically fainted when I
> said I had used wd-40 to clean it.
>
> They said put the phone down, and run, don't walk to the dishwasher, put it
> in the top rack and run at least 3 cycles with the last using just a squirt
> of palmolive.  Turned out that the $16/copy Cherry brand key switches were
> hall effect devices that were being poisoned by the wd-40's petroleum
> content.  In the end I wound up replacing 7 of them.  It was a pretty heavy
> duty keyboard, similar to the old IBM's that weighed about 5 lbs and could
> be used to smash a skull in a pinch. It had by then probably typed a
> million words or more.  And it probably did another million by the time we
> retired it 10+ years later.
>
> Cheers, Gene
>


Tektronix had a rather nifty wash booth they used to clean up cruddy old
scopes and other test equipment brought in for repair and/or cal.

http://www.radiomuseum.org/forum/tektronix_washing_your_instrument.html

Mark
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Re: [Emc-users] DRO failureType FAGOR 0-300 (spanish made)

[Gregg Eshelman]

On 1/9/2014 3:26 AM, Mark Wendt wrote:

> Tektronix had a rather nifty wash booth they used to clean up cruddy old
> scopes and other test equipment brought in for repair and/or cal.
>
> http://www.radiomuseum.org/forum/tektronix_washing_your_instrument.html

"Motors--Apply 1-2 drops of thin oil. (WD-40 is suitable) ."

Uh, no, it's not! WD-40 is not a lubricant.


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Re: [Emc-users] DRO failureType FAGOR 0-300 (spanish made)

[Mark Wendt]

On Thu, Jan 9, 2014 at 5:59 AM, Gregg Eshelman  wrote:

> On 1/9/2014 3:26 AM, Mark Wendt wrote:
>
> > Tektronix had a rather nifty wash booth they used to clean up cruddy old
> > scopes and other test equipment brought in for repair and/or cal.
> >
> > http://www.radiomuseum.org/forum/tektronix_washing_your_instrument.html
>
> "Motors--Apply 1-2 drops of thin oil. (WD-40 is suitable) ."
>
> Uh, no, it's not! WD-40 is not a lubricant.
>

They wrote that many, many moons ago.  ;-)

Mark
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Re: [Emc-users] DRO failureType FAGOR 0-300 (spanish made)

[Gene Heskett]

On Thursday 09 January 2014 08:57:47 Mark Wendt did opine:

> On Wed, Jan 8, 2014 at 9:49 PM, Gene Heskett  wrote:
> > Pretty good take on it Gregg.
> > 
> > I recall once, back in the late '80's, on an old character generator
> > that had a sticky key problem, so I flushed it all out, several years
> > worth of grit mixed with hand creams of dubious ancestry, with wd-40.
> >  3 days later it had lost 3 keys.  I called the CG folks who
> > practically fainted when I said I had used wd-40 to clean it.
> > 
> > They said put the phone down, and run, don't walk to the dishwasher,
> > put it in the top rack and run at least 3 cycles with the last using
> > just a squirt of palmolive.  Turned out that the $16/copy Cherry
> > brand key switches were hall effect devices that were being poisoned
> > by the wd-40's petroleum content.  In the end I wound up replacing 7
> > of them.  It was a pretty heavy duty keyboard, similar to the old
> > IBM's that weighed about 5 lbs and could be used to smash a skull in
> > a pinch. It had by then probably typed a million words or more.  And
> > it probably did another million by the time we retired it 10+ years
> > later.
> > 
> > Cheers, Gene
> 
> Tektronix had a rather nifty wash booth they used to clean up cruddy old
> scopes and other test equipment brought in for repair and/or cal.
> 
> http://www.radiomuseum.org/forum/tektronix_washing_your_instrument.html
> 
> Mark

Interesting Mark.  But I've never sent anything back to tek for repairs.

When tek started to use the federal 5 year rule for parts availability to 
drive sales of new stuff was when I gave up on tek.  When I walked in the 
door at WDTV in Oct '84, my predecessor had just bought a new 2235 scope.  

The tube was a POS with severe focusing problems and I immediately called 
the rep in Pittsburgh to get it replaced while it was still in warranty.  

No  soap, it was good enough for them.  I banged on them 2 or 3 times, 
because when I look at a scope trace and see a ghost sticking out of a spot 
1/8" away, there really isn't a way to decide if its a duff tube, or noise 
in  the circuit.  This was in late 84 and things haven't improved.  I put 
up with it for a few months, and finally convinced Mel I had to have a 
replacement tube or a replacement scope.  He OK'd the tube, I bought it and 
put it in myself.  Huge improvement.  But in about 90, I began to note that 
the input attenuators on both sides were getting so out of whack in the 
frequency comp department that it was no longer capable of maintaining the 
10x probes calibration when changing the range switch.  So I got out the 
manual, and called tek to buy new ones as they are ceramic plates with the 
resistors and capacitors printed on the plate & baked on, totally non 
repairable.

They didn't have any, it had been out of production for more than 5 years.  
Since I needed a scope that didn't lie to me, I went shopping and a year or 
so later bought a Hitachi V-1065 which served well, worked perfectly until 
I needed a 4 trace to be able to correctly setup the dvc-pro tape machines 
we had by then bought 15 of.  So I traded the 1065 in on the top of the 
line 200mhz model, but that one had triggering problems so I backed down to 
the same thing in the 100mhz flavor, which did not have the triggering 
problem.  That scope is still in daily use, although not like I used it, by 
my successor, and I would assume not seriously out of calibration yet and 
its now at least 20 yo.  In the meantime, we had hired a pair of starving 
college & night school dropouts, and the guy had some stuff left over from 
a computer course he had taken which included a Hitachi V-1065 in mint 
condition, and which was then in their catalogs at $2750 new yet, wanted 
$1200 for it, I paid him $200 every payday for 3 months for it.  Still have 
it. The range switches are getting noisy & need exercised to work right and 
the timebase is off a bit but the computer still gives the correct answers 
even if the trace misses the graticle marks by 10%.

Their frequency rolloff at the high end, unlike the tek's brick wall, is 
generally just a loss of peak to peak ability, but I have used it to look 
directly at the output of a channel 8 transmitter, nominally 180 mhz to 
determine modulation depth, comparing it to a junk demodulator, coming to 
the conclusion that the demod truly was junk, something originally built 
for the cable industry.  Very little is as believable as a Rhoade and 
Swarze AMF, but then that puppy was also $25,000 in its day, when I was 
making $9,000 year & thought it was good money.  State of the art today, if 
we were still doing analog, would be an MSI-320 at about $5500. But you had 
better have a fresh calibration certificate, their business model demands 
it at least annually.

Now of coarse we are doing digital, and the test & verification gear to 
monitor us accurately has quadrupled in price, but we are also 10x more 
needful of the accuracy than we ever w

Re: [Emc-users] DRO failureType FAGOR 0-300 (spanish made)

[Gene Heskett]

On Thursday 09 January 2014 10:10:49 Gregg Eshelman did opine:

> On 1/9/2014 3:26 AM, Mark Wendt wrote:
> > Tektronix had a rather nifty wash booth they used to clean up cruddy
> > old scopes and other test equipment brought in for repair and/or cal.
> > 
> > http://www.radiomuseum.org/forum/tektronix_washing_your_instrument.htm
> > l
> 
> "Motors--Apply 1-2 drops of thin oil. (WD-40 is suitable) ."
> 
> Uh, no, it's not! WD-40 is not a lubricant.
> 
In fact, its wax will dry and plug up the pores in an oilite bushing, 
reducing the motors life considerably.  Don't ask me how I know.

Cheers, Gene
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Re: [Emc-users] DRO failureType FAGOR 0-300 (spanish made)

[andy pugh]

On 9 January 2014 10:59, Gregg Eshelman  wrote:

> Uh, no, it's not! WD-40 is not a lubricant.

Spray it on your motorcycle seat and see if you still think that.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/WD-40 describes it as a lubricant in many
places, and it is made from oil.

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Re: [Emc-users] DRO failureType FAGOR 0-300 (spanish made)

[Dave Caroline]

WD-40 is drying oil rather than a non drying oil, it leaves a gummy
deposit, it is one of the worst things to put on a clock mechanism.

Dave Caroline

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Re: [Emc-users] DRO failureType FAGOR 0-300 (spanish made)

[Steve Blackmore]

On Thu, 9 Jan 2014 05:26:55 -0500, you wrote:


>Tektronix had a rather nifty wash booth they used to clean up cruddy old
>scopes and other test equipment brought in for repair and/or cal.

I did some work years ago for a company that refurbished PC's and
peripherals for export to Russia an Africa. They also cleaned keyboards
as a commercial service.

The keyboards simply went into large industrial dishwashers, followed by
large warm air dryers. They were left to stand on racks keys down for a
week then tested. Well over 90% survived and looked brand new.

Pretty much everything else went into the washers too! PC's had the
drives removed and went in also. That which survived went for export,
fails went to landfill.

Steve Blackmore
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Re: [Emc-users] DRO failureType FAGOR 0-300 (spanish made)

[Mark Wendt]

On Fri, Jan 10, 2014 at 3:11 AM, Steve Blackmore  wrote:

> On Thu, 9 Jan 2014 05:26:55 -0500, you wrote:
>
>
> >Tektronix had a rather nifty wash booth they used to clean up cruddy old
> >scopes and other test equipment brought in for repair and/or cal.
>
> I did some work years ago for a company that refurbished PC's and
> peripherals for export to Russia an Africa. They also cleaned keyboards
> as a commercial service.
>
> The keyboards simply went into large industrial dishwashers, followed by
> large warm air dryers. They were left to stand on racks keys down for a
> week then tested. Well over 90% survived and looked brand new.
>
> Pretty much everything else went into the washers too! PC's had the
> drives removed and went in also. That which survived went for export,
> fails went to landfill.
>
> Steve Blackmore
>


Yep.  Water doesn't hurt most electronics (as long as no power is
applied).  A lot of the folks mention they use deionized water too.  As
long as it's completely dry by the time you fire it up, it should hurt.
Watch out for paper based caps though, they can be sensitive to the
moisture.

mark
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Re: [Emc-users] DRO failureType FAGOR 0-300 (spanish made)

[Gregg Eshelman]

On 1/10/2014 3:14 AM, Mark Wendt wrote:

> Yep.  Water doesn't hurt most electronics (as long as no power is
> applied).  A lot of the folks mention they use deionized water too.  As
> long as it's completely dry by the time you fire it up, it should hurt.
> Watch out for paper based caps though, they can be sensitive to the
> moisture.

I've bathed several PCs and an entire Xbox 360 (except the hard drive) 
that had been owned by heavy smokers. They were FURRY inside from dust, 
pet hair and tobacco smoke residue.

Warm water, soap and an old toothbrush. After rinsing a couple of hours 
in a food dehydrator set to 85F has the parts dry and ready to reassemble.

The Xbox 360 needed a new laser and the tray drive belt boiled. Xbox was 
free, laser less than $8 on eBay, used Mad Catz controllers were around 
$20 and $8.

Boiling the tray drive belts on optical drives can cure failure to open. 
Bring some water to a rolling boil, remove from heat then toss the belt 
in for a minute. Fish it out, dry it off and usually it will work to 
make the tray eject. The heat causes the rubber to shrink, increasing 
the tension on the pulleys.

Another cause of this is some drives have small pads in parts of the 
mechanism which the laser and spindle tilt down on. The pads compress 
over time and allow the disc clamp to come too close to the magnet on 
the spindle motor shaft. Given the cheapass nature of the companies 
making these things, the eject system is just strong enough to break 
that magnetic attraction when a disc is in the drive. Left alone without 
a disc for a long time, those pads compress and the magnet's grip is too 
strong.

The fix is easy, carefully peel the pads off and rotate 90 or 180 
degrees so an un-mashed part is in use.

The best optical drives have an all gear driven tray mechanism and do 
not use any squishable soft parts anywhere. They'll never have an eject 
failure.


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