Re: [Emc-users] Dedicated Processor hardware for LinuxCNC
On Tue, 19 Feb 2019 01:00:21 + (UTC) Greg Bentzinger via Emc-users wrote: > ( Greg ) > Every kid would love to ask for a pony, if they thought they could get it > they would ask for a unicorn. Reality however usually proves this to be > impractical to impossible. > Everything is changing today at a hyper accelerated pace. Back in the day > Motorola produced the 68000 CPU, it was used in all sorts of equipment from > Apple PC's to Okuma machine controls. I would guess that that CPU was still > being used to manufacture products 20 years after debut. Micro controllers with Cortex-M* CPU is very common today and I guess it might be for a very long time. > Today PC cpu and chip sets are what a 3-5 year life cycle before going OOP. > Same with many ARM CPU. Look at the Arduino and how many generations have > come down the road. Most new version have moved to 3.3V and are no longer > compatible with 5V shields. This have been the case with Cortex-M* almost all the time, 2.7-3.6 volt is common though NXP make one 5 volt variant. I use one with external core voltage which is lower than supply voltage and guess a lower voltage is used internally. To use 5 volt for external IO and a lower voltage internally I would guess is a very idea since inside circuit the paths are very short compared to outside but I lack knowledge/experience with construction of integrated circuits. I do not totally agree about life cycle, I have two computers in front of me which I used for quite many years despite buying the used and this never happended then I was younger. Clock frequency for laptops and ordinary stationary computers have not changed much at all the last ten years. As far as I understand Linux real time is going forward and this might make running real time on other much simpler hardware less interesting even though an ordinary computer use both quite a lot of space and power compared because they are cheap and readily available. Nicklas Karlsson ___ Emc-users mailing list Emc-users@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/emc-users
Re: [Emc-users] Dedicated Processor hardware for LinuxCNC
On 2/18/19 5:00 PM, Greg Bentzinger via Emc-users wrote:
( Greg )
Every kid would love to ask for a pony, if they thought they could get it they
would ask for a unicorn. Reality however usually proves this to be impractical
to impossible.
Everything is changing today at a hyper accelerated pace. Back in the day Motorola produced the 68000 CPU, it was used in all sorts of equipment from
^^ not true for everything.
Apple PC's to Okuma machine controls. I would guess that that CPU was
still being used to manufacture products 20 years after debut.
Today PC cpu and chip sets are what a 3-5 year life cycle before going OOP.
Same with many ARM CPU. Look at the Arduino and how many generations have come
down the road. Most new version have moved to 3.3V and are no longer compatible
with 5V shields.
Even if someone did come up with a backplane card rack for most of the interface cards,
that main CPU board would have to be updated nearly constantly because key components
would become un-obtainable. Todays global manufacturing tries to run as close to true JIT
as it can.(JIT="Just in Time") companies want as little space and capitol tied
up in inventory. When I worked an Apple PC assembly line they were so JIT focused they
only kept 4-6 HOURS worth of components in the facility. This meant that trucks were
delivering Mem, HDD's ect. were being unloaded every few hours and being reloaded with
boxed product ready for market.
Good to know. I love computer history.
Several Chinese machine tool builders have offered LinuxCNC as the control to
reduce the overhead of building the machine. I believe it would be used more if
tool builders were sure they could not be held liable for a system they sold
that had been modified by the buyer.
GRBL has come along way - and it was a project to fit a stripped version of the
early EMC/LinuxCNC into cheap Arduino hardware. the current v1.1 IIRC had to
strip down the boot loader and some other items to still be able to squeeze the
optimized assembly code into the Atmega328p chip. What did GRBL have to give up
to fit in an Arduino? Tool table capability {G43}, Tool radius comp {G41-G42},
Minimal look ahead buffer, No program storage - its all drip feed via serial,
no program editing, X-Y-Z only no additional axis, no spindle feedback
(tapping), requires second device to stream G-code and operate the control. Now
I like GRBL and it has the honor of being the founding code which virtually all
extruder type 3D printers is based. I hope someday there is a port for a rotary
axis, I would love to use it to engrave on cylinders using X-A-Z.
For now though, the movement towards SSerial and interface from control PC via
Ethernet allows all sorts of flexibility.
As for HP-GL, I had to work with HPGL for tool paths for several years and it was a complete disaster. Mathematically a "line" has no physical width, not exactly so in HPGL so you will have gaps, broken chains, lines intersecting not at there endpoints and all arcs are output as splines. While at the scale for a HP pen plotter this worked out, for CNC use it was a dismal failure of epic man hours wasted trying to get each file into a usable state. I hope HPGL
HPGL was not designed for CNC work if we assume that plotter is not a
CNC machine. However, the reason I brought it up was in it's simplicity
of writing raw code for it be that in Basic in HP-85 for example, or
whatever else. It's easier to remember PA (Plot Absolute), PR (Plot
Relative), PT (Pen Thickness), SC (Scale), etc. than G-code.
http://paulbourke.net/dataformats/hpgl
For 3D somebody would need to come up with language extensions.
is banished from the face of the earth long before G-code begins to
fade. I agree that G-code is far from perfect, but there is no other
method out there that even comes close. Early AutoCAD had the same sort
of dysfunction issues by the use of the "polyline" construct.
Lastly - May I ask the status of LCNC v2.8? Is there any potential release date
on the horizon?
Thanks ( /Greg )
G-code is like Latin used by doctors 50 years ago. How is that working out?
Just because your implementation did not work for you HP-GL is not bad.
Repeatability and accuracy on HP plotters was very good even for pens in
my experience. With a bit of adjustment for a CNC environment HP-GL
would be at least as good ad G-code in 2 dimensional space. Code is just
a code. One is easier to read than the other but it has nothing to do
with machine accuracy.
It was only used by engineers not a crowd that only knows how to insert
paper into inkjet printing machine. I've seen some very impressive IC
layout designs plotted with HP-GL on HP plotters that I maintained or
repaired in the past.
--
Rafael
Exclusive Linux user since Feb 1994
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Re: [Emc-users] Dedicated Processor hardware for LinuxCNC
On Monday 18 February 2019 20:00:21 Greg Bentzinger via Emc-users wrote:
> ( Greg )
> Every kid would love to ask for a pony, if they thought they could get
> it they would ask for a unicorn. Reality however usually proves this
> to be impractical to impossible. Everything is changing today at a
> hyper accelerated pace. Back in the day Motorola produced the 68000
> CPU, it was used in all sorts of equipment from Apple PC's to Okuma
> machine controls. I would guess that that CPU was still being used to
> manufacture products 20 years after debut. Today PC cpu and chip sets
> are what a 3-5 year life cycle before going OOP. Same with many ARM
> CPU. Look at the Arduino and how many generations have come down the
> road. Most new version have moved to 3.3V and are no longer compatible
> with 5V shields. Even if someone did come up with a backplane card
> rack for most of the interface cards, that main CPU board would have
> to be updated nearly constantly because key components would become
> un-obtainable. Todays global manufacturing tries to run as close to
> true JIT as it can.(JIT="Just in Time") companies want as little space
> and capitol tied up in inventory. When I worked an Apple PC assembly
> line they were so JIT focused they only kept 4-6 HOURS worth of
> components in the facility. This meant that trucks were delivering
> Mem, HDD's ect. were being unloaded every few hours and being reloaded
> with boxed product ready for market. Several Chinese machine tool
> builders have offered LinuxCNC as the control to reduce the overhead
> of building the machine. I believe it would be used more if tool
> builders were sure they could not be held liable for a system they
> sold that had been modified by the buyer. GRBL has come along way -
> and it was a project to fit a stripped version of the early
> EMC/LinuxCNC into cheap Arduino hardware. the current v1.1 IIRC had to
> strip down the boot loader and some other items to still be able to
> squeeze the optimized assembly code into the Atmega328p chip. What did
> GRBL have to give up to fit in an Arduino? Tool table capability
> {G43}, Tool radius comp {G41-G42}, Minimal look ahead buffer, No
> program storage - its all drip feed via serial, no program editing,
> X-Y-Z only no additional axis, no spindle feedback (tapping), requires
> second device to stream G-code and operate the control. Now I like
> GRBL and it has the honor of being the founding code which virtually
> all extruder type 3D printers is based. I hope someday there is a port
> for a rotary axis, I would love to use it to engrave on cylinders
> using X-A-Z. For now though, the movement towards SSerial and
> interface from control PC via Ethernet allows all sorts of
> flexibility. As for HP-GL, I had to work with HPGL for tool paths for
> several years and it was a complete disaster. Mathematically a "line"
> has no physical width, not exactly so in HPGL so you will have gaps,
> broken chains, lines intersecting not at there endpoints and all arcs
> are output as splines. While at the scale for a HP pen plotter this
> worked out, for CNC use it was a dismal failure of epic man hours
> wasted trying to get each file into a usable state. I hope HPGL is
> banished from the face of the earth long before G-code begins to fade.
> I agree that G-code is far from perfect, but there is no other method
> out there that even comes close. Early AutoCAD had the same sort of
> dysfunction issues by the use of the "polyline" construct. Lastly -
> May I ask the status of LCNC v2.8? Is there any potential release date
> on the horizon? Thanks ( /Greg )
>
Don't know Greg. I'm running master on all my stuff, and except for a
rare minor upset tummy because I didn't get the memo, its just worked.
Breakage has been minimal, and fixed with the next build.
> ___
> Emc-users mailing list
> Emc-users@lists.sourceforge.net
> https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/emc-users
Cheers, Gene Heskett
--
"There are four boxes to be used in defense of liberty:
soap, ballot, jury, and ammo. Please use in that order."
-Ed Howdershelt (Author)
Genes Web page
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[Emc-users] Dedicated Processor hardware for LinuxCNC
( Greg )
Every kid would love to ask for a pony, if they thought they could get it they
would ask for a unicorn. Reality however usually proves this to be impractical
to impossible.
Everything is changing today at a hyper accelerated pace. Back in the day
Motorola produced the 68000 CPU, it was used in all sorts of equipment from
Apple PC's to Okuma machine controls. I would guess that that CPU was still
being used to manufacture products 20 years after debut.
Today PC cpu and chip sets are what a 3-5 year life cycle before going OOP.
Same with many ARM CPU. Look at the Arduino and how many generations have come
down the road. Most new version have moved to 3.3V and are no longer compatible
with 5V shields.
Even if someone did come up with a backplane card rack for most of the
interface cards, that main CPU board would have to be updated nearly constantly
because key components would become un-obtainable. Todays global manufacturing
tries to run as close to true JIT as it can.(JIT="Just in Time") companies want
as little space and capitol tied up in inventory. When I worked an Apple PC
assembly line they were so JIT focused they only kept 4-6 HOURS worth of
components in the facility. This meant that trucks were delivering Mem, HDD's
ect. were being unloaded every few hours and being reloaded with boxed product
ready for market.
Several Chinese machine tool builders have offered LinuxCNC as the control to
reduce the overhead of building the machine. I believe it would be used more if
tool builders were sure they could not be held liable for a system they sold
that had been modified by the buyer.
GRBL has come along way - and it was a project to fit a stripped version of the
early EMC/LinuxCNC into cheap Arduino hardware. the current v1.1 IIRC had to
strip down the boot loader and some other items to still be able to squeeze the
optimized assembly code into the Atmega328p chip. What did GRBL have to give up
to fit in an Arduino? Tool table capability {G43}, Tool radius comp {G41-G42},
Minimal look ahead buffer, No program storage - its all drip feed via serial,
no program editing, X-Y-Z only no additional axis, no spindle feedback
(tapping), requires second device to stream G-code and operate the control. Now
I like GRBL and it has the honor of being the founding code which virtually all
extruder type 3D printers is based. I hope someday there is a port for a rotary
axis, I would love to use it to engrave on cylinders using X-A-Z.
For now though, the movement towards SSerial and interface from control PC via
Ethernet allows all sorts of flexibility.
As for HP-GL, I had to work with HPGL for tool paths for several years and it
was a complete disaster. Mathematically a "line" has no physical width, not
exactly so in HPGL so you will have gaps, broken chains, lines intersecting not
at there endpoints and all arcs are output as splines. While at the scale for a
HP pen plotter this worked out, for CNC use it was a dismal failure of epic man
hours wasted trying to get each file into a usable state. I hope HPGL is
banished from the face of the earth long before G-code begins to fade. I agree
that G-code is far from perfect, but there is no other method out there that
even comes close. Early AutoCAD had the same sort of dysfunction issues by the
use of the "polyline" construct.
Lastly - May I ask the status of LCNC v2.8? Is there any potential release date
on the horizon?
Thanks ( /Greg )
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