Re: [Emc-users] scaling G code

2007-06-08 Thread John Prentice
Greetings

A modal scaling code (G51?) is certainly useful and fairly easy to define in 
terms of its effect on X, Y, Z etc. coordinates submitted to the 
interpreter. One does have to beware of what happens to arcs with unequal, 
say, X and Y factors.

Rotation seems to me much more difficult to specify because of jogging and 
because of work offsets.

Does the X jog move the table left and right or in such a way that only the 
X DRO alters?

Is the rotation about 0,0,0 in the current cosys, the G54 cosys or the G53 
cosys? I think that funny things happen to datums whatever option is chosen.

John Prentice

From: John Kasunich [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Subject: Re: [Emc-users] scaling G code


 Jon Elson wrote:
 Ray Henry wrote:
 Now fifw, it seems to me that it's time to modify the interpreter to
 allow for a modal scaling g-code.
 Oh wow, cool idea!  If we're going to do that, 3-axis rotation
 would be a good thing to put in at the same time.  Then, you
 could scale/rotate the moves to fit the part, rather than try to
 align the part to the machine.  The big boys all have this,
 and the math is almost trivial and very localized.  You just run
 the time-honored translation matrix on all input coordinates.

 Jon

 You volunteering Jon?  That would be a good thing to work on while you
 are at the CNC workshop.  ;-)

 Regards,

 John Kasunich




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Re: [Emc-users] scaling G code

2007-06-08 Thread Kenneth Lerman
If you are going to do that, it shouldn't be a translation matrix; it
should be a transform matrix. That would be a general affine
transformation. That would provide translation, rotation, and skew. So, if
your X and Y axes weren't exactly perpendicular,  that could be corrected.
We might want to require that Z be perpendicular to X and Y for a mill. It
wouldn't make sense to drill holes where it was not.

To me, the big implementation issue has to do with the display. Do you show
the G code coordinates or the transformed value? Can the user at the
interface (Axis or whatever) choose which one is displayed?

In any event, the current transformation matrix should be stored as a series
parameters (in the gcode sense). That way, it could be easily changed by G
code. Slap a part on the table, probe a few points with a gcode subroutine
which sets the origin and rotation (computing the transformation matrix),
and you're off and running.

Ken

[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Mark Kenny Products Company, LLC
55 Main Street   Voice: (888)ISO-SEVO (888)476-7386
Newtown, CT 06470Fax: (203)426-9138
http://www.MarkKenny.com


-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
[mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Behalf Of John
Kasunich
Sent: Thursday, June 07, 2007 10:05 PM
To: Enhanced Machine Controller (EMC)
Subject: Re: [Emc-users] scaling G code


Jon Elson wrote:
 Ray Henry wrote:
 Now fifw, it seems to me that it's time to modify the interpreter to
 allow for a modal scaling g-code.
 Oh wow, cool idea!  If we're going to do that, 3-axis rotation
 would be a good thing to put in at the same time.  Then, you
 could scale/rotate the moves to fit the part, rather than try to
 align the part to the machine.  The big boys all have this,
 and the math is almost trivial and very localized.  You just run
 the time-honored translation matrix on all input coordinates.

 Jon

You volunteering Jon?  That would be a good thing to work on while you
are at the CNC workshop.  ;-)

Regards,

John Kasunich

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Re: [Emc-users] scaling G code

2007-06-08 Thread Andre' Blanchard
Here is a programming manual for Mit 300 seres controls, rotation stuff 
starts at page 184 of the PDF 172 of the scanned book.  Its an old control 
but easy to use and it had a lot of options, and the manual is a free 
download. :)
http://www.meau.com/functions/dms/getfile.asp?ID=0100010046090http://www.meau.com/functions/dms/getfile.asp?ID=0100010046090

In case that link to the PDF does not work here is the page, book BNP-A2943 
should be second in the list.
http://www.meau.com/eprise/main/sites/public/DOWNLOADS/-search_results?SType=3DocType=010SessionNum=UserID=Division=00010Opt1=Yessubmit1=SearchFamily=ManualType=0055

It does a fair job of describing the interactions of the rotation and 
workoffsets and other things.  Not the end all bible but a good place to start.
_
Andre' B.


At 03:43 AM 6/8/2007, you wrote:
Greetings

A modal scaling code (G51?) is certainly useful and fairly easy to define in
terms of its effect on X, Y, Z etc. coordinates submitted to the
interpreter. One does have to beware of what happens to arcs with unequal,
say, X and Y factors.

Rotation seems to me much more difficult to specify because of jogging and
because of work offsets.

Does the X jog move the table left and right or in such a way that only the
X DRO alters?

Is the rotation about 0,0,0 in the current cosys, the G54 cosys or the G53
cosys? I think that funny things happen to datums whatever option is chosen.

John Prentice

From: John Kasunich [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Subject: Re: [Emc-users] scaling G code


  Jon Elson wrote:
  Ray Henry wrote:
  Now fifw, it seems to me that it's time to modify the interpreter to
  allow for a modal scaling g-code.
  Oh wow, cool idea!  If we're going to do that, 3-axis rotation
  would be a good thing to put in at the same time.  Then, you
  could scale/rotate the moves to fit the part, rather than try to
  align the part to the machine.  The big boys all have this,
  and the math is almost trivial and very localized.  You just run
  the time-honored translation matrix on all input coordinates.
 
  Jon
 
  You volunteering Jon?  That would be a good thing to work on while you
  are at the CNC workshop.  ;-)
 
  Regards,
 
  John Kasunich




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Re: [Emc-users] scaling G code

2007-06-08 Thread Jon Elson
Kenneth Lerman wrote:
 If you are going to do that, it shouldn't be a translation matrix; it
 should be a transform matrix. That would be a general affine
 transformation. That would provide translation, rotation, and skew. So, if
 your X and Y axes weren't exactly perpendicular,  that could be corrected.
 We might want to require that Z be perpendicular to X and Y for a mill. It
 wouldn't make sense to drill holes where it was not.
 
 To me, the big implementation issue has to do with the display. Do you show
 the G code coordinates or the transformed value?
The transformed value.  You can always set EMC to show machine 
coords.  But, having the display show in the same coord system 
you enter positions in is the only thing that makes sense.
  Can the user at the
 interface (Axis or whatever) choose which one is displayed?
 
 In any event, the current transformation matrix should be stored as a series
 parameters (in the gcode sense).
Absolutely.

Jon

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Re: [Emc-users] scaling G code

2007-06-08 Thread Jon Elson
John Prentice wrote:
 Greetings
 
 A modal scaling code (G51?) is certainly useful and fairly easy to define in 
 terms of its effect on X, Y, Z etc. coordinates submitted to the 
 interpreter. One does have to beware of what happens to arcs with unequal, 
 say, X and Y factors.
 
 Rotation seems to me much more difficult to specify because of jogging and 
 because of work offsets.
 
 Does the X jog move the table left and right or in such a way that only the 
 X DRO alters?
 
Once you have engaged the translation, then an X jog would move 
in the translated coordinate space.  If you want to do a pure X 
jog, you need to cancel the translation mode.
 Is the rotation about 0,0,0 in the current cosys, the G54 cosys or the G53 
 cosys? I think that funny things happen to datums whatever option is chosen.
Well, you have to define where these translations and rotations 
work from.  Making the rotations around the translated (0,0,0)
coordinate would make sense to put everything around the part's 
new origin.

Jon

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[Emc-users] scaling G code

2007-06-07 Thread Cecil Thomas
Alex,
You are right of course.  It's only the number that is important. I 
guess the default is 1.000. The units don't seem to change anything 
except the units displayed in TKEMC or whichever display you use.

I set up an experimental stepper inch which scales correctly on my 
machine (input scale 4000).
The dial indicator on the axis agreed exactly with the tkemc display.

I then  changed units from inch to .5 inch.
The dial indicator only moved .5 inch for every inch on the tkemc display

I then changed the units to .5 mm.
The results were the same as when it was .5 inch.

Apparently the actual movement of the axis is the result of the 
scaling factors in the axis sections multiplied by the value of the 
UNITs number in the trajectory section.
Therefore I can change my inch setup to mm for instance by either 
leaving the scale for the axis at 4000 and changing units to 
.03937x or I can leave the units as one and change the scaling 
factor to 157.xxx (4000/25.4) the movement will be the same.

I had read the manual several times before I started this thread and 
I have read it again several times in the last couple of days.
Now that I know how the system works the manual seems to agree with 
what I now understand.  It's amazing how smart other people get when 
you finally understand what they were saying all along.

Bottom line... If I use my inch scaling (4000) and set units to 
.03937 and run chips it will cut it at full scale.
If I change units to .019xx (.03937xxx divided by 2) the program 
will then cut chips at exactly one half the size of the original.
Like Ray said yep

By the way the 3D_chips.ngc file header calls for a 10 mm ball end 
mill whose diameter would be one tenth of the entire figure.
That don't leave much room for detail!!  I think it was probably 
supposed to be 1 mm.


Sorry for the confusion and thanks very much for the help.

Cecil


 the change as I implemented it, was primarely targeted at _not_ breaking old
 configs.
 So you can still safely use numerical values (even ones different from mm,
 inch, etc.)

Regards,
Alex



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Re: [Emc-users] scaling G code

2007-06-07 Thread Ray Henry

Hi Cecil

Glad that we got that all figured out and you've got what you need
going.  The ball endmill called out in the chips.ngc program was
intended to be able to handle all those deep cuts without breaking.  The
guys at Smithy cut a real, fairly nice version of chips by getting the
original cad and running watermarks using Synergy.  That way they were
able to increase the resolution and at the same time use a smaller
endmill.  Last time I was there I tried to find the code they produced
but the fellow that did it has moved on.

Now fifw, it seems to me that it's time to modify the interpreter to
allow for a modal scaling g-code.

Rayh

BTW you must be using full step drivers for a 4k input scale.  If I
remember, the official version used 16k and quarter steps.  I know you
said you'd built up your own system.  Could you describe it a bit more
for us.  Pics on the wiki would be nice.


On Thu, 2007-06-07 at 01:13 -0500, Cecil Thomas wrote:
 Alex,
 You are right of course.  It's only the number that is important. I 
 guess the default is 1.000. The units don't seem to change anything 
 except the units displayed in TKEMC or whichever display you use.
 
 I set up an experimental stepper inch which scales correctly on my 
 machine (input scale 4000).
 The dial indicator on the axis agreed exactly with the tkemc display.
 
 I then  changed units from inch to .5 inch.
 The dial indicator only moved .5 inch for every inch on the tkemc display
 
 I then changed the units to .5 mm.
 The results were the same as when it was .5 inch.
 
 Apparently the actual movement of the axis is the result of the 
 scaling factors in the axis sections multiplied by the value of the 
 UNITs number in the trajectory section.
 Therefore I can change my inch setup to mm for instance by either 
 leaving the scale for the axis at 4000 and changing units to 
 .03937x or I can leave the units as one and change the scaling 
 factor to 157.xxx (4000/25.4) the movement will be the same.
 
 I had read the manual several times before I started this thread and 
 I have read it again several times in the last couple of days.
 Now that I know how the system works the manual seems to agree with 
 what I now understand.  It's amazing how smart other people get when 
 you finally understand what they were saying all along.
 
 Bottom line... If I use my inch scaling (4000) and set units to 
 .03937 and run chips it will cut it at full scale.
 If I change units to .019xx (.03937xxx divided by 2) the program 
 will then cut chips at exactly one half the size of the original.
 Like Ray said yep
 
 By the way the 3D_chips.ngc file header calls for a 10 mm ball end 
 mill whose diameter would be one tenth of the entire figure.
 That don't leave much room for detail!!  I think it was probably 
 supposed to be 1 mm.
 
 
 Sorry for the confusion and thanks very much for the help.
 
 Cecil
 
 
  the change as I implemented it, was primarely targeted at _not_ breaking old
  configs.
  So you can still safely use numerical values (even ones different from mm,
  inch, etc.)
 
 Regards,
 Alex
 
 
 
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Re: [Emc-users] scaling G code

2007-06-07 Thread Cecil Thomas
Ray,

At 07:19 AM 6/7/2007, you wrote:
Glad that we got that all figured out and you've got what you need
going.  The ball endmill called out in the chips.ngc program was
intended to be able to handle all those deep cuts without breaking.

I noticed that when I scaled the endmill to be small enough to get any deatail
it then had too short a working part to make the plunge and still 
cut all the way down.
Thank god for plastic!!
I thought about scaling the z axis to 1/3 of x and y and makeing one 
cut then rezeroing and rescaling to 2/3 for another then make a final 
pass at the same scale as x and y.  That should make the passes 
doable with a standard end mill.
I realize that this is just an exercise, but hands-on exercises 
almost always teach me something, sometimes something I didn't 
realize I needed to know.

Now fifw, it seems to me that it's time to modify the interpreter to
allow for a modal scaling g-code.

Looks like it could be useful.

BTW you must be using full step drivers for a 4k input scale.  If I
remember, the official version used 16k and quarter steps.  I know you
said you'd built up your own system.  Could you describe it a bit more
for us.  Pics on the wiki would be nice.

I am using an old DM 2 table top CNC mill that Paul Hamler found for 
me a few years ago.
It is a sherline mill with steppers mounted in a big blue box with 
proprietary electronics and software. It uses the 5804 chip and is 
prsently set up for single steps and ballast resistor drive.  I can 
do some trace cutting and rewiring on the cards and get more steps 
but I really need to trash the cards and go to a chopper drive.
I disabled everything but the spindle speed control and the power 
supply, reconnected the axis driver cards to the power supply and 
routed the card's step and direction inputs to a newly installed 
parallel port connector.

It's probably obvious that I am pretty much a hands-on type.  I am an 
electronics engineer retired from the Nuclear power industry where I 
did instrumentation and control design.  Where I worked engineers 
were not allowed to touch things so we had to spend hours or weeks 
meticulously designing and documenting and co-ordinating a project 
for someone else to do which we could have done in a few hours of 
hands-on work.  In order to compensate for not being allowed to play 
with the toys at work, I have always kept a few electromechanical 
projects going at home.  I have found EMC CNC to be an almost perfect 
diversion.  It lets me play with computers, electronics and machines 
all at once and most importantly I don't really have to make anything 
but parts for my machines.

My goal is to use the little machine to gain as much proficiency and 
knowledge as possible on this scale and then convert my Powermatic 
Millrite mill to CNC.

Thanks again for the patience and support.

Cecil 



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Re: [Emc-users] scaling G code

2007-06-07 Thread Jon Elson
Ray Henry wrote:
 
 Now fifw, it seems to me that it's time to modify the interpreter to
 allow for a modal scaling g-code.
Oh wow, cool idea!  If we're going to do that, 3-axis rotation 
would be a good thing to put in at the same time.  Then, you 
could scale/rotate the moves to fit the part, rather than try to 
align the part to the machine.  The big boys all have this, 
and the math is almost trivial and very localized.  You just run 
the time-honored translation matrix on all input coordinates.

Jon

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Re: [Emc-users] scaling G code

2007-06-06 Thread thdsmith
Hi Cecil,

Some time ago  I wrote a simple gcode scaling progam (dos based). I'm pretty 
sure it works OK with the 3D_chips file.
If you (or anyone else for that matter) would like it, let me know and I will 
see if I can find it in one of my backups.

Cheers
Tim

Ray Henry wrote:
 Yep

 On Mon, 2007-06-04 at 23:12 -0500, Cecil Thomas wrote:
  
 I'd like to run 3D_chips.ngc on my converted DM (sherline) mill but it is 
 too big for the little machine.
 Is there a trivial way to scale it, for instance changing the Units variable 
 in the .ini file?

 Thanks again,
 Cecil
 
 


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Re: [Emc-users] scaling G code

2007-06-06 Thread Wijngaarde, Ronald
Hi Tim,
I would definitely be interested
 
Regards,
Ron



Van: [EMAIL PROTECTED] namens thdsmith
Verzonden: wo 6/6/2007 11:53
Aan: Enhanced Machine Controller (EMC)
Onderwerp: Re: [Emc-users] scaling G code



Hi Cecil,

Some time ago  I wrote a simple gcode scaling progam (dos based). I'm pretty 
sure it works OK with the 3D_chips file.
If you (or anyone else for that matter) would like it, let me know and I will 
see if I can find it in one of my backups.

Cheers
Tim

Ray Henry wrote:
 Yep

 On Mon, 2007-06-04 at 23:12 -0500, Cecil Thomas wrote:
 
 I'd like to run 3D_chips.ngc on my converted DM (sherline) mill but it is 
 too big for the little machine.
 Is there a trivial way to scale it, for instance changing the Units variable 
 in the .ini file?

 Thanks again,
 Cecil




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Re: [Emc-users] scaling G code

2007-06-06 Thread Ray Henry

Hi Cecil

We include at least one such thing as a part of EMC2.  We call it
image-to-gcode.  If you are willing, I'd like us to consider adding such
a program/ability to the code.

Ray


On Wed, 2007-06-06 at 19:53 +1000, thdsmith wrote:
 Hi Cecil,
 
 Some time ago  I wrote a simple gcode scaling progam (dos based). I'm pretty 
 sure it works OK with the 3D_chips file.
 If you (or anyone else for that matter) would like it, let me know and I will 
 see if I can find it in one of my backups.
 
 Cheers
 Tim
 
 Ray Henry wrote:
  Yep
 
  On Mon, 2007-06-04 at 23:12 -0500, Cecil Thomas wrote:
   
  I'd like to run 3D_chips.ngc on my converted DM (sherline) mill but it is 
  too big for the little machine.
  Is there a trivial way to scale it, for instance changing the Units 
  variable in the .ini file?
 
  Thanks again,
  Cecil
  
  
 
 
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Re: [Emc-users] scaling G code

2007-06-06 Thread John Kasunich
Cecil Thomas wrote:

 The older versions of EMC used a numeric value for units ( .0397x 
 or 1) in the trajectory section of the .ini. I could just change the 
 value and presto! new scale!!
 
 The new version doesn't have a numerical value... just mm, inch, or 
 cm.  I assume that the terms are defined somewhere in numerical 
 values.  But it won't be the first time I made a wrong assumption.

I think you can still enter a numerical value for units.  mm, inch,
etc, are just for convenience.

Did you actually try to use a number for units?

I could be wrong - I'm not the one who implemented the change that allow
you to use mm, etc.  But if you _can't_ enter a numerical value, I would
consider that a bug, and I think we should fix it.

Regards,

John Kasunich


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Re: [Emc-users] scaling G code

2007-06-06 Thread Alex Joni
 I think you can still enter a numerical value for units.  mm, inch,
 etc, are just for convenience.

yes, you can.

 Did you actually try to use a number for units?

 I could be wrong - I'm not the one who implemented the change that allow
 you to use mm, etc.  But if you _can't_ enter a numerical value, I would
 consider that a bug, and I think we should fix it.

the change as I implemented it, was primarely targeted at _not_ breaking old 
configs.
So you can still safely use numerical values (even ones different from mm, 
inch, etc.)

Regards,
Alex



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[Emc-users] scaling G code

2007-06-05 Thread Cecil Thomas
Chips is supposed to run on approximately 4 x 4 inch block which is 
too big for a sherline based machine.
I got it to run on a 2.5 by 2.5 inch block by using stepper_mm.ini 
and changing the input scale on all the axes from 200 to 50.

I tried changing the output scale from 1 to other values but it 
didn't seem to have any effect!!!

I couldn't figure out how to scale it using the units in the 
trajectory section.

The older versions of EMC used a numeric value for units ( .0397x 
or 1) in the trajectory section of the .ini. I could just change the 
value and presto! new scale!!

The new version doesn't have a numerical value... just mm, inch, or 
cm.  I assume that the terms are defined somewhere in numerical 
values.  But it won't be the first time I made a wrong assumption.

Could it be that the trajectory units don't do anything and the input 
scale on each axis determines how much the axis really moves??

If I wanted to rescale a part on one or more axes without messing 
with the G-code is the input scale in the ini the way to go or is 
there a better way?


 I'd like to run 3D_chips.ngc on my converted DM (sherline) mill 
but it is too big for the little machine.
 Is there a trivial way to scale it, for instance changing the Units 
variable in the .ini file?




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[Emc-users] scaling G code

2007-06-04 Thread Cecil Thomas
I'd like to run 3D_chips.ngc on my converted DM (sherline) mill but 
it is too big for the little machine.
Is there a trivial way to scale it, for instance changing the Units 
variable in the .ini file?

Thanks again,
Cecil




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